TED Conversations

Vera Nova

Director Research Analysis, NOVA Town Futuristic Development

TEDCRED 30+

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Can we really observe or reproduce a perfect copy, repeat the very same movement, come back to the same house, and stay unchanged selves?

Why is that so convinient for us to believe that we can deal with "the same" selves, or units in math and business, or perfect understanding?

How would our human society and mentality have changed if we will learn that nature cannot allow anything to be perfectly repeated, or ideally copied?

In exact sciences, based on math, we unwillingly pretend that a unit such as 1 can be reproduced as many ideal, identical, perfect copies as we need or wish. The law of nature would not allow even the two identical copies to exist.

In my recent reserach the following explanation has been suggested (for the first time).

Ironically in order to see "exactness" we have to depend on great Crudeness of our own perception of sight. Our calculations are never exact, but we do not notice constant change within "identical" units or copies we calculate, those symbols/images, chemistry, shapes and textures...everything keeps changing..including our own minds of the observers. The results of the most painstaking lab work are never really perfect as they might seem. Everything is Flux, everything is new, so are we.

Does this seem depressing? or encouraging ?

Heractitus FLUX against

Plato's Perfect IDEALS.

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    May 7 2014: well, if I buy a gallon of milk, of course it's not exactly the same amount as every other gallon of milk. But it's close enough? So I tell someone across the country today I drank a gallon of milk, they have a pretty good idea what I mean?
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      May 8 2014: True. I believe that we have this tremendous tendency to see similarities in different things, faces, trees,animals, manufactured products or copies. We easily call them "the same", or even "identical". If we have had absolutely perfect penetrating perceptions we would never be able to see any similarity at all, and well, forget about identical copies.. we would see everything as absolutely different and irreversibly original events. Nature would not allow any identical copy to be repeated - for that it has to stop the whole world from interconnected change to fit the same copies, within the same timing and the same conditions ("space") - but it's absolutely impossible. While the world is CHANGING THERE'RE NO REPETIONS OF ANY SORTS.

      I think it is the very Crudness and great Limitations of our perceiving that "help" us skip to notice those instant irriversable changes within ourselves and everything we deal with... including our minds and bodies, we think these are "the same".

      I also think that this crudness creates the very "foundation" of our conscious thinking, which is very superficial and deceiving, because we are unaware that by the time we observe, measure and calculate, "re-produce" or photograph or find some evidence... the entire world is entirely new and different. We can see change only when it is very noticable for us.

      We cannot improve our very crude perceptions but we do not really need to - we just have to be aware of our real ever-changing realities and that we cannot be exact but only deal with approximations (have to remember Heisenberg's Probability in our everyday life, in math, and in labs .

      Thank you for your Post!
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        May 8 2014: well, let's say you're right, Vera. So where would you want the conversation to go from here?

        It can happen I think that you can encounter a difficult situation and you misunderstand, and mishandle, the current situation because it somewhat resembles a prior situation you encountered. I believe Sigmund Freud mentioned this possibility.
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      May 9 2014: Yes, Greg. You're buying a slightly different amount of milk every time, and also different quality of milk and it always has somewhat different taste - if you're sensative enough you know that.

      Freud was a founder of our postmodern psychology, but was confused when he came up with his conclusions. However, you're right - Our situations do Resemble something from our past - otherwise we would not even notice them!! (That is why I trust that we are not at all blank canvas when we are born into this world: we are already living vivid minds but have no experience in adjusting into our new conditions and still alient to us human bodies)

      Our memories "live" on change as well, and what we call Recongnition of our past experience, means that we go through our new transformations from the old past. There is no possible "storage" for memories in our minds or brains (neuroscientists are still fantasising about finding that "storage" ) In order to "save" or prolong memories we have to "reconstruct" and replay them over and over again in our forever New conditions, so they are always different and new. Our very crude perceptions recognize some similarities even "exactness" in them.

      When we are young and still growing up, we sometimes go away for awhile. When we return back to our home we realize how different it feels for instance this house becomes "smaller" and older. Memory is a process of life and part of our continuity, therefore, memories must change in every instant within our transforming selves.

      P.S. You had a very intriguing topic but I could not find to read it again: about how you balance your milk packages when you drink them. I believe that all our tangible-manual and mental activities are governed by our basic natural sense of balance, or equality, or symmetry, and these sensations bring to us what I may say, comfort. In this Comfort Zone we may discover how and Why we Balance our New conditions while changing
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        May 11 2014: well, you do think what happened in the past is useful in the present? Take a plumber who repairs your pipes. He or she uses what he learned in plumbing school, what he remembers from what he learned in plumbing school?

        Yes, you can easily find conversations, Vera. Look along the left of this conversation. You see the 12 photos of people who are currently active in TED conversations. Above that there is a function "Search conversations." Clicking on that arrow, you can put in a request to see all conversations by a particular name that you fill in.

        I am still playing with that balance idea. It has me somewhat interested in drawing as now I am drawing with both my left and right hand, cultivating my ambidexterity. Also, I am experimenting now with drawing where I draw the same thing on the left side of the page and on the right side. For example, I may draw a side view of a human face on the left, and, facing it, a side view of the same human face on the right. It does seem true that drawing two of the same thing has gotten me studying human faces more, for example, how does the nostril of the nose look from the side.
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    May 3 2014: MAKING COPIES? Should We Play God?

    Because the same procedure used to make a carbon copy of the sheep is also theoretically applicable to cloning human beings, many ethical and philosophical questions have been raised.

    The thought of replicating humans is frightening and most scientists, including Dr. Wilmut and his coworkers, believe that it would be unethical to try to clone humans.
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    May 3 2014: MAKING COPIES? Should We Play God?

    Because the same procedure used to make a carbon copy of the sheep is also theoretically applicable to cloning human beings, many ethical and philosophical questions have been raised.

    The thought of replicating humans is frightening and most scientists, including Dr. Wilmut and his coworkers, believe that it would be unethical to try to clone humans. Cloning people is banned in Britain, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, The Netherlands, and Spain. Federal funding for human cloning research is prohibited in the United States and President Clinton requested the private sector to voluntarily ban the research. Exploitation of this technology, however, cannot be prevented. Even though laws are passed forbidding research on replicating people, it would still be possible to continue these experiments secretly in private laboratories or in countries with no laws against such research.
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    May 3 2014: Although some scientists believe that human cloning is only 10 or 20 years around the corner, the process would be far more difficult than cloning a sheep.

    The biggest question over cloning animals is how the clone will age. Dolly was cloned from a six-year-old ewe and therefore the nucleus of all her cells were already six years old when she was born. No one knows how this will affect her longevity or other factors in her life.

    There is some misunderstanding about what constitutes a clone. A human clone would be the genetic identical twin, a generation or more younger, of the donor (not the surrogate mother) who provided the nucleus. But because people are more than a product of their genes, a clone would have its own personality, character, intelligence, and talents exactly as identical twins do (who are natural clones stemming from the same egg). You cannot clone a person's brain or mind, and chance factors, the environment, and a person's experiences contribute to individual traits.

    This means that even if you wanted to, you cannot duplicate your identical self. Even if you were to clone yourself several times, you would not be able to create the same person each time because every human life, no matter how conceived, is unique.
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    May 9 2014: The terms, or words, such as "the same image, product, number, copy, house, sun, universe..." those we use in our thinking are just conventional images, symbols or signs. When we think about an identical copy, or perfectly same units in math, we believe that everyone "knows" what we "know": these are undoubtedly, absolutely identical in every mind. In order to somehow understand what we really mean by using those conventional world and terms, we shall try to comprehend how these words and terms and their definitions have come to our minds, in the first place. Conventional beliefs do Not come come to us directly from the objective world. These are always collective images somehow symbolizing our collective experience - which can NEVER be exact, because they are collective.

    “Our view of man will remain superficial so long as we fail to go back to that origin [of silence], so long as we fail to find, beneath the chatter of words, the primordial silence, and as long as we do not describe the action which breaks this silence. the spoken word is a gesture, and its meaning, a world.”
    ― Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Phenomenology of Perception
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    May 8 2014: I dare to think beyond what is already known to us. Though people have been depending on that "exactness" of our proof in jurisdiction. sciences, productions, ideas, education or knowledge etc, for ages, I'd like to somehow extrapolate our imagination - how would we be able to imporve ourselves, ethics, morals, sciences and therefore technology by learning that there is no possibility of exact repetition or any event of nature - no perfect copy or number, no perfect balance or symmetry...

    The first step would be to try to remember that we are not at all perfect. We are alive and changing, and cannot stop our trasformations neither in everyday existence not in labs. Because we are alive and changing, we need to comprehend that this is CHANGE - the very law of nature impossible for us to comprehend.

    We can only apply our Approximations and Crudness of perceiving in order to see similarities or repetitions, or copies. To be aware that these are only our own impressions is also crucial - we need to be more ready for change, sometimes very drastic and unexpected!!

    I see that it woould be a whole cultural "revolution" if we give up on our only imaginative "true" proof and stop fighting to death for those "truths" but instead try to understand some different possibilities and views. This will, no doubts, improve our life and make it wiser and more meaningful. Also we would be more prepared to sudden changes we cannot predict.
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    May 3 2014: Walt Disney
    The more you like yourself, the less you are like anyone else, which makes you unique.
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    May 3 2014: John Mason
    You were born to be an original. Don’t die a copy.