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Ang Perrier

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How does gender affect formulation of opinion based on perception?

I'd like to kick-start this debate by asking for each person responding, to please describe their personal opinion of their ideal; a) Husband/boyfriend b) Wife/girlfriend.

I'm adding onto this now...

How different do you perceive males and females to be?

Are these differences something that can be phased out through gender neutralizing environments or are they engrained in our nature as a permanent fixture?

If there's a possibility of phasing out the differences would you choose to?
If there's not how do we address our Politically Correct world where we avoid any recognition of differences between genders?

The focus here is on the mental, emotional, and developmental differences, not so much the physical.

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Closing Statement from Ang Perrier

Overall it seems as though we are able to accept and recognize that there are differences between males and females. What we are not ready to accept and recognize is that there are differences in the way we learn that should be addressed in early childhood development.

This doesn't mean the end result has to change as far as career capabilities. It means that we need to cater to these developmental differences and teach our boys the way they learn best and teach our girls the way they learn best in order for them to have the opportunity to achieve their desired goals in life.

Right now our education system is failing both genders equally and that is unfortunate. We can say that it's because we don't spend enough money on schooling, or we don't address the specific needs of each individual child. But I think that a reasonable attempt at adapting a school curriculum which incorporates certain gender differences into the lesson plan has proven to be effective and ought to be adopted by more schools and made available to anyone who thinks that their child would benefit from it.

I DO NOT mean that girls should be taught Home Ec. and boys should be taught Shop Class. I'm implying that girls and boys learn subjects such as math and science easier in 2 very different ways. Why not structure a class that is designed to teach girls/boys math the way their brains understand it best? It's not harmful for our society to look at what science can teach us about the brain and use that information in the most effective way possible.

I'd like to take this time to advocate to any parent out there reading this to do some research and decide for yourself if gender specific lesson plans could be a benefit for your child.

Start with Leonard Sax's book "Why Gender Matters" and see if you find yourself agreeing with the statements and research he's done over the past 25 years.

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    Apr 14 2014: Boy, I do not like this sort of "traditional" discussions between man and women --- always ended in endless nothingness, but brewing more and more emotional irritaion, within every participant.

    WHY NOT TO BE ON ONE SIDE?

    AND SEE WHAT EVERYONE CAN DO TO IMPROVE HIMSELF/HERSELF while reconning that WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR CO-EXISTENCE, in whole?

    Beside there is no such thing as an IDEAL - IDEALS belong to the old Plato's horrific fantasies.

    We are all Imperfect and incomplete -- because we are Living Beings constantly adjusting to ever challanging world. We have extremely limited perceptions of our reality and one another. We need to comprehend that we have our great limitations in everything we do.

    What is my personal role? Be responsible for myself, my own moves and mistakes. Be my own judge :)

    What makes the best of us the bestest? Wisdom that is always "working" towards our Mutual survival and even future prosperity.



    P.S. just wondering - throughout history women have had endless chances to be powerful and rule our human world - many times they were given great power - but how did they miss their chances, and eventually find themselves as "pushed away" members within their own society that they shared with men for millennia? What failed them in Themselves?

    My life has proven that a mind of a very fragile, very shy girl as I was, can be very respected by powerful men (selecting her over intelligent men they know well) seeking for her advice, knowledge and support.. I never compete with any men, I have my rule to let all people be themselves, well, but keep some polite distance.
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      Apr 14 2014: Vera,
      If you don't like this kind of conversation, why did you join in?

      You say this is...."brewing more and more emotional irritaion, within every participant."?

      I've been quite active in this discussion, and I do not feel any "emotional irritation", nor do I sense any emotional irritation from Ang. I think/feel it helps to talk about thoughts, feelings, ideas, perspectives, perceptions and beliefs, and I think it is a good way to develop understanding:>)

      You write..."women have had endless chances to be powerful and rule our human world - many times they were given great power..."

      I am certainly aware of quite a few women rulers in our world throughout history who were very successful rulers....not failures at all....."endless chances"? Who, when, where did women have endless chances and fail?
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        Apr 15 2014: Hello dear Colleen. I've published my comment not to just say I do not like the discussion. That would be very silly. I've explained Why I do not like these discussions - they do not help improve the situation. In my modest opinion, people who trully want to make some differences in life shall stand together as helping, not blaming one another, friends, and become co-creators of their social union.

        I feel that you, personally, do not like my comment. Maybe you're not sure about what I really mean? You ask me to bring here those endless cases when powerful women have been blowing up their good chances to change our bloody society for the better, You do not believe me and wish me to prove my point? But I do not wish to jump off my main point, I suggest a peaceful colaboration in ideas, not as victims and tyrants, but as individuals who are responsible for who they are.

        Let me ask you a specific question in return to your very general question. History speaks for itself. It shows that crowds of common women were the most excited spectators watching horrific executions having no clue who was the real victim. Why did not they protest against bloody violence as a group of good people? Why did they endlessly keep supporting it? even when some of them were victimized by the same authorities ? (French revolution 1830) I do mean the list is endless.

        I'd like to understand why is it so importrant for so many people, not only women but men, to complain as Victims!!

        If you cannot recollect anything from history about women having great chances to practice their kindness and wisdom, why not to look at our postmodern world? if I work hard I can get any diploma, and any position I want. As a responsible employee I can show the best possible solutions for the tasks. I do not need to blame anyone or to compete with men to get where I want. I avoid common competitions on purpose, because this kind of behavior provokes hostility and jealousy.
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          Apr 15 2014: I do not perceive "blame" in this conversation Vera. I perceive people seeking understanding.

          It is not a matter of me liking or disliking your comment Vera....it just seems curious....why enter a conversation that you do not like? I am trying to understand...

          Who here in this conversation are the "victims" and the "tyrants" Vera? Who has suggested blame, or competing with men? Who has spoken about hostility and jealousy in this conversation Vera?

          Where are you trying to go with this discussion? What would you like to achieve?
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        Apr 15 2014: Colleen, you keep asking the same thing, and you are unhappy with my comments because you're missing my main point again.

        You write: Who here in this conversation are the "victims" and the "tyrants" Vera? Who has suggested blame, or competing with men? Who has spoken about hostility and jealousy in this conversation Vera?

        Where are you trying to go with this discussion? What would you like to achieve?

        ------ I Keep giving the Same Answer:

        The long History is our background that we cannot avoid. In any honest discussion if we wish to get somewhere we shall be aware of "Traditional" opinions, habits, behavior and recycling mentality mixed with common flirt or jealousy. If we do not recognize all that - we are dishonest or naive.

        I also know well that without that flirt, passion and jealousy it would not be any great poetry or literature or arts.

        I'm not an extreme person :) or a negative person as you might think. But I'm a trained scholar, and may be, as you guess, this is not my place - I mean this conversation, if it is supposed to be light.

        If we are unaware of the history that is in the very foundation of our possition today, I do not see that it would be possible to make any progress in this conversation. It will remain shallow, not serious.

        Am I responsible for women or men lived millennia ago? No, I'm not, But I'm responsible for myself - Absolutely. That is WHY I know and want to know more about the problems that have been brewing for a very long time before I was born. I've inherited all that, as anyone else who is alive today.

        Best Wishes!
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          Apr 15 2014: I agree Vera, we cannot avoid our background and in my perception, it helps to understand our background for the purpose of learning, growing and moving on to change. It's difficult to realize where we want to go with an idea, if we are not aware of where we have been.

          Absolutely! if we wish to get somewhere we need to be aware of traditions, opinions, habits, behavior, perceptions, perspectives and beliefs. Which is why I perceive this conversation has value.

          No one has suggested that you or I are responsible for women or men who lived millennia ago. As you insightfully stated, it is important to be aware of traditions, habits and behaviors of the past to understand how to change them, which is exactly why I brought in the idea of traditions, habits and behaviors of the past. You also seem to be reinforcing the idea that to be aware of the past is an important part of exploring the topic.

          I totally respect your choice to participate in this conversation or not.
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        Apr 15 2014: Colleen -

        I guess it was my fault - allowed myself to be a lttle spontaneously emotional in my first response to this topic and made a confusing impression.

        I appreaciate your great patience and attention. Not too many men or women are capable of doing what you're routinely doing while conversing with people whom you do not even know well..

        I am about to answer Ang, who is asking if I feel that " men and women are exactly the same mentally, emotionally, and developmentally"

        Best Regards!
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          Apr 16 2014: No fault Vera:>)
          Hopefully, we are all discussing the topic in an effort to learn and understand:>)
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      Apr 15 2014: Vera -

      Do you feel as though men and women are exactly the same mentally, emotionally, and developmentally?

      I'm not asking whether you feel as though men and women are unequal, just different.

      If men and women are exactly the same in all of these areas then there should never have been any gender divide throughout history and everything in our modern world would to this day be split equally down the middle 50/50.

      My point here is that there are differences that society feels uncomfortable addressing as it's no longer politically correct to say anything about boys and girls learning things at different times or developing on a different schedule.

      If we as a society refuse to acknowledge that boys don't develop their motor skills until 5 years after girls do, yet we teach them to write neatly or get a lower grade as early as 1st grade, are we being fair to young boys who will feel as though they are not as good as their female classmates?

      If we refuse to acknowledge that females pick up on math concepts easier when taught with word problem first rather than being shown the equation, is it fair to her to expect that she learn how to solve for X without relating the formula to something tangible?

      Boys and girls begin life experiencing all negative emotion in the amygdala which is a more primitive part of the brain. For females a shift occurs around age 10ish and her emotions move to a different area which allows her to make more linguistic connections as to why she's feeling what she's feeling.

      In boys this shift never occurs which is why they struggle in their attempt to explain and connect language to their emotional response.

      In schools kids are assigned fictional books and asked to identify with the characters and state in papers what they think the character is feeling. This is not fair to young boys and again their grades reflect this challenge. Are we setting our kids up to fail by refusing to acknowledge differences in learning patterns amongst them?
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        Apr 15 2014: Ang -

        Maybe my old poem would answer your Q. to some point?

        There is no space here for the whole poem. The beginning is about how different and unique each of us is, how private our minds/souls are, forever invisible to anyone but only to ourselves. Here is the rest:

        Poem ON BLESSED BLINDNESS

        ..... but if blindness disappeared and everyone could see Every mind's Kingdom,
        Feel every feeling and know every thought as one,

        Misunderstandings could melt down forever.
        Seeds of doubts and blame about the others could stop growing.
        No fights, no wars, intrigues or hate, no players or pretending.
        Alas, no illusions of beauty, seductive unknowns and guesses.
        No wonder and
        No wisdom
        -all truths are clear for each mind and for all.

        No thrill to admire,
        No one to thank,
        No need to explain, to talk, to act, to scream!

        No artist to paint.
        No poet to sing.

        If my peculiarly human senses cannot give me the world
        God bless my blindness,
        the soil for my garden of dreams.

        How little I can see with my eyes!
        How much I can see and create without them!

        God bless my lonely mind in its sacred solitude, and my only way
        To know your world,
        By building my own.
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          Apr 15 2014: My point here is basically to find a better way to help individuals build their own worlds. I wish there were more effective ways in our communities, schools, homes, etc...for kids to figure out who they truly are and what they truly want in life.

          People who are comfortable in their own skin tend to navigate through life doing less damage to themselves and those they come into contact with.

          Males and females, in my opinion, have to learn these truths in a different order and with different kinds of assistance from the world around them.
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          Apr 15 2014: "I wish there were more effective ways in our communities, schools, homes, etc...for kids to figure out who they truly are and what they truly want in life."

          So, Ang, who do you think kids (all of us) truly are?
          And what do you think kids (we) truly want in life?

          Are the answers to either or both questions different for different kids (people)?
          How about for different genders?

          What are the similarities and/or differences between the answers?
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          Apr 16 2014: Carl -

          I can tell you exactly who I am. And I can tell you exactly what I want when presented with a choice based on who I am.

          My morals, integrity, and values stay consistent and allow me to navigate through life by always using them as my compass.

          Every child is different, we know this, however, I think that what helps one girl figure it out is similar to what helps most girls figure it out. Whatever tools, techniques, or tactics used to help one boy figure it out can be reused with other boys to help them get to a greater understanding of themselves.

          A boy and a girl may end up at an identical answer but couldn't get there unless they took the road that offered the least resistance and the most support for them.

          Does that make sense, it's getting late and I'm about to go to bed. Maybe I'll reread this in the morning just to make sure. :)
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        Apr 15 2014: You say "I wish there were more effective ways in our communities, schools, homes, etc...for kids to figure out who they truly are and what they truly want in life. "

        I'm with you here.

        The main problem I see that "prevents" us from any progress in this direction you've mentioned, is hidden in our unified systems that serve no individual but a non-existing collective prototype. These systems supress our unique abilties and therefore, possibilites, making very Many of us unhappy as we have no chance to explore the best in ourselves. We unfortunately keep serving these brainless systems and think that we must fight them if we want to change them! There is not need to fight agaist these systems.

        I think that we shall begin to create our small flexible systems of all sorts, Outside those gigantic structures.

        Small communities of all sorts, business, educational, scientific, artistic etc, if are created with respect to individual uniqueness and talents within each of us, allowing cultural and economic diversity would be a great start. No one is born to be a criminal, but everyone is born to be unique and creative to various degree.
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          Apr 16 2014: Finding a way to promote flexibility when kids are young helps them adapt and get creative as adults.

          Look at our systems in place on a global level. We citizens look at certain business practices and programs with disdain because we see how flawed it is. We can see that it needs to be scrapped and started from scratch but the leaders refuse and instead try to patch it up with a Band-Aid and forge ahead anyways.

          Showing our kids that we are willing to look at the school system as having flaws and then try to fix it shows them that it's necessary to reevaluate things and if it's not successful DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. No bail-outs, no denying the problem exists, no patching it up, just fix it.
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        Apr 16 2014: Child psychology is still in its "embryonic" stage having no clue of what it is dealing with, therefore even basic ethics are voilated in every research.. When we think we are discovering something based on old scientific methods of setting up experiments within artificial conditions combined with outdated, stiff mentality, we discover only our own stupidity.

        Very young children have naturally inborn intuition that adults have lost. Every child knows
        Self long before it is given conventional name etc. But researchers and the rest of society do not remeber themselves as babies, and very sure that a baby's mind is a blank-canvas that we, adults, must paint our own way.

        The questions that children ask come from the perspective of independent observers. While they are still outsiders, newcomers, they have not yet become seriously involved in the pretensions of our society, or in attempting to fit into its limited categories and conventions.

        In my memories, I return to my past very often; to my first impressions of life, which shocked me at that time, and made me wonder. I have therefore developed a special "technique" to compare the past to my recent experience. This helped me advance my work(research) tremendously, also understand why human society forces its artificial "training" on everyone based on mindless systems in spite that we cannot make any real progress, except producing more and more technology and tech toys.

        Education starts at home when a baby is in his/her mother's hands (does not happen often these days). What a wise mother can do to guid her child to find sense in his future life? growing up in this psychopathic world? Or maybe we, adults, shall begin to learn something from young children? Are their questions really stupid?
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          Apr 16 2014: Personally, I have learned a LOT from children Vera, and will continue to do so when the opportunity arises. I don't perceive any "stupid" questions:>)
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          Apr 16 2014: A parent can only do so much to exhibit control over the environment of their children. Stifling and over protecting leads to naïveté. Too much of it is bad, too little too soon is bad, there has to be a balance.

          Parents making the conscious decision to interfere with schools when necessary is necessary as the school is just an extension of the proverbial home.

          Question for you

          When referring to a male over the age of 25 do you ever find yourself calling him a boy? If so is it a compliment or an insult to his maturity?

          When referring to a female over the age of 25 do you ever refer to her as a girl? If so does if have a different meaning?

          Do you hear males being referred to as guys, men, or boys most often?

          Do you hear females being referred to as women or girls most often?

          Does this carry with it any underlying preconceptions or opinions, or is it nothing at all to pay attention to?
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        Apr 16 2014: Ang, it's a copy of your
        Question:

        "When referring to a male over the age of 25 do you ever find yourself calling him a boy? If so is it a compliment or an insult to his maturity?

        When referring to a female over the age of 25 do you ever refer to her as a girl? If so does if have a different meaning?

        Do you hear males being referred to as guys, men, or boys most often?

        Do you hear females being referred to as women or girls most often?

        Does this carry with it any underlying preconceptions or opinions, or is it nothing at all to pay attention to?"

        Ang, I consciously refer this sort of "girls, boys, guys" perception to the mindlessly vulgar. But these "playful" half-joking "method" is used for expressing "normal" friendliness.

        Girls and women call themselves "guys" as well.. meaning we are all equil bunch of pals here.

        Well, I hope you'd agree with my view - these labels/names only show that we perceive others as buddies in our childish plays, drastically unaware that we deal with real reality and real individuals. We're not just co-players.

        Strickingly, when we see young chidren trying to behave like responsible adults they charm us deeply beyond our comprehension. Remember the timeless classical "The Kid" with Jackie Coogan? This child deeply knows - he's a little surviver.

        I think that when we are encouraged to be little kids by doing all sorts of idiotic things for "fun" we continue doing it when we are grown up. Almost all adults I know, or see everywhere with rare exception of a few, have a psyche of pitifully undeveloped young players who never learn that it is not wise to play with fire, weapons, food or brainlessly get into sexual adventures - this list is endless.

        Let me put all this in a few simple words - that common behavior and communication manners is a combination of cultural poverty, lack of real experience, and extremely poor education. This ugly loud vulgarity is demonstrating merciless caricatures of ourselves
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      Apr 15 2014: What do you perceive would be the reasoning behind females committing murder in the 1st degree more often than the other degrees of murder??
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        Apr 15 2014: Great question, Ang. I think it would be fair to look for some answers (will never find all the answers) if we'd try to understand the causes of illnesses of our society in whole.

        I'm quite sure that in all extreme cases the criminals are also victims terribly suffering something that has made them psychotic. In general women can be much more physically vulnerable than men, they get pregnant, or have to take care of young helpless children.

        In our psychotic society good natural, say mother's instinct, might mutate in some women. Very sadly it is a truly Classical case when a woman murders her baby.

        But I think the motivations still can be drastically different. I mean, in old times, I imagine, a young unmarried girl could get pregnant because of common rape or some spontanious contact. The society and its artificially established morals do not bother to understand her situation. That society judges her mercilessly making her life a living hell.
        She is desperate as any criminal could be.

        Living in our contemporary human world when sexual contacts are concedered to be "fun", "enternainment" even "gymnastics" etc, any person who is not well informed/educated about the truth regarding sexual adventures goes with that "fashionable" flow.

        Often, women who feel that they can attract men, easily get involved in that entertaining" game. Many of them had some problems in their childhood, as commonly very many of us had. But instead of learning these individuals prefer an easy way - driven by self-pity they play as forever victims who deserve to be "loved" by men.

        This sort of women want to be themselves forever favorite, spoiled babies. When they have their own baby they see it as a great enemy, outsider, taking away all attention and love from them. Jealousy destroys and kills but not only a motive for outstanding cruelty.

        Throughout history women murdered for various reasons: defense, freedom, greed, some position, etc..

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