TED Conversations

Vera Nova

Director Research Analysis, NOVA Town Futuristic Development

TEDCRED 30+

This conversation is closed.

Is our human language the most intelligent tool to communicate? Do you trust your intuition more than the words?

I MEAN OUR LANGUAGE-OF-WORDS. Perhaps we spend immensely more time on talking than any animal.

Even while using multiple devices for communicating practically in any distance on earth for exchanging our feelings or information, we still do not understand one another any better than millennia ago.

As we see on TED most of the time we discuss or argue over our man-made TERMS, which we commonly use, but understand/interpret in different ways. We spend a lot of time arguing over the words themselves, over their meaning.

How much confusion we create by using language and its conventional terms?

Is our human language the most intelligent tool to communicate after all?

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Closing Statement from Vera Nova

“Our view of man will remain superficial so long as we fail to go back to that origin [of silence], so long as we fail to find, beneath the chatter of words, the primordial silence, and as long as we do not describe the action which breaks this silence. the spoken word is a gesture, and its meaning, a world.”

― Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Phenomenology of Perception

I'd like to thank you every member who has participated in this challenging conversation.

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    Apr 12 2014: It seems that some birds, especially in the morning hours when many of us are still a bit more on the quiet site, are as talkative and communicative as we are... well, after our first coffee, of course ...

    I often wonder what happened to them over night, which makes it that urgent to share it the very moment they get up ... I have no idea ... :o)

    For us I don't know and can't even imagine of any other, any better and more precise way to share information than by our language and this despite its imperfections and risks of misunderstandings.

    Confusion in the process is immanent and inevitable as we have no universally valid reference point to which all of us could calibrate against to synchronize meaning, intention, understanding and interpretation. Yet we have the choice to compensate for this to certain degrees, depending on how much time, patience, reflections and goodwill we are willing to spend into the communication with another being.

    Imagine we would have a technology to totally tap into the neural network of another individual with ours for direct communication to mutually partake in each others intellectual and emotional 'echo-chambers' to reduce the 'noise' and disturbances of the old fashioned externalization of spoken words.

    Would you use it?

    I think I wouldn't although I have to admit, that it would be tempting in certain situations.

    So lets continue our ongoing journey of communicative chaos and let us spent our times on words which seems to matter to us in whatever context, way and situation. Not any misunderstanding is necessary to be eradicated ... at times, on the contrary.

    Anything left unclear? Let me know!

    :o)
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      Apr 13 2014: You have some very challenging questions, Lejan, and I like them!

      I trust that our language is not at all our inborn ability.
      If a human baby is growing up among caring wolfs he will mimic their behavior and even sounds. Moreover, he will identify himself as a wolf. Unlike us, humans, No other creature would confuse its own kind with other kind, it "knows" who it is, what to eat and how to fly or run.

      I think, however, only humans can mimic other kinds so well, acting, sensing and feeling as those kinds. This fantastic inborn ability we, humans, possess is revealing our outstanding but primordial acting/artistic character. When we grow up we are trained to mimic made-up human language and, years later, feel that there is no other way for us to express ourselves.

      As I have mentioned in some of my posts, we still have this superb intuition while we are still very young babies, unaware, we replace intuition by conventions, including language without which we would not be accepted in our artificial human society.

      We learn backwards - first do our best to get rid of what is granted to us by nature and then are trying to put things under microscopes to dissect the nature's gift and "examine" what appears on the surface..

      It is only a dream but I can easily imagine that some of us would stop separating ourselves from mighty nature, as if we were some superior to it creatures, and begin to practice co-existence with a natural world by learning its ways "first hand". Well, we know that some rare individuals already keep practicing within nature's school as we speak..

      Good to hear from you my friend.
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        Apr 13 2014: It is easy to rise 'challenging questions', Vera, and as long you do not expect me to know the answers, I can at least appear to have thought about many things ... :o)

        If language was not our inborn ability, as you trust, where then does it come from when we are using it in very early years? And why can we loose it when certain regions in our brains get damaged?

        It appears to me, that 'instinct' is limited to certain rudimentary behavioral patterns and abilities, which in themselves are highly complex indeed, such as 'walking', 'swimming' or 'suckling', yet inherently based on non-abstract levels within brains.

        It also seems, that as more abstract a brain will be capable of working once it has 'fully' developed, as less independent and more vulnerable it is at its beginning, yet not less capable, on the contrary.

        Other than we do later in school, no parent is teaching their newborn their language by introducing boring grammatical rules at the cradle. They introduce words, repeatedly, yet the abstract concept of them forms and grows only in capable brains, thus I expect us to have an inborn ability for language.

        So no matter how early and intensely we talk to newborn kittens, they will never form, even try to mimic anything alike in 'melody' we expose them to, leave alone to finally grasp its abstract meaning.

        On other primates, experiments have been conducted to test their language abilities by teaching them 'sign language', to bypass their vocal restrictions, and the results seem to support the assumption, that it takes a certain setup within animal brains for more abstract levels of communication to take place.

        Yet capacity or ability of a given brain does not unfold itself without stimulation. So when a human was to grow up among wolves, it would be no surprise that he/she copies what he/she was exposed to.

        Yet it would be interesting to know, if humans were able to fully understand any other animal language, such that of wolves ...
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        Apr 13 2014: ... although I don't see any reason, why we couldn't.

        'Unlike us, humans, No other creature would confuse its own kind with other kind, it "knows" who it is, what to eat and how to fly or run.'

        Since Konrad Lorenz we know that this does not seem correct for all animals. On the contrary, because if you happen to be around when ducklings of geese or ducks hatch, and you are the first thing in their sight, you will be accepted as their leading figure, their parent instantly. This phenomenon is called 'Imprinting' in behavioral psychology and described as 'irreversible form of learning'.

        So even if mommy duck or goose arrives at the scene shortly after, they lost the chance to be accepted by their chicks to be what they actually are - their legal parent.

        When I was a child, I loved to seek for nests of wild ducks which lived not far away of my home near by a small creek, yet I was told by my mother to be aware of the 'imprinting', to not return home with a bunch of chicks following me wherever I go ... :o) And although I barely noticed parental advice, this one somehow got to me, as it didn't seem right to 'steal' the rightful motherhood of a female duck...

        I agree with you, that we loose many of our given, inbuilt and primordial abilities when we grow up, yet it also tells us, that those 'abilities' by itself have no distinct form and/or characteristic on their own, because if they had, it was likely for them to make themselves to be heard within and followed by us.

        So my question is, is this 'superb intuition' truly existent as some form of 'higher knowledge', preferably, 'better knowledge' than the ones we seem to follow later on, or do we 'just' interpret and romanticize that what we are missing in our current cultural state into an 'all true and innocent' knowledge we lost on our rite of passage as individuals and as societies...
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          Apr 14 2014: Oh NO, Lejan. The ducks do NOT imitate or mimic humans - they have no doubts about who they really are, what to eat and how to swim. When very young, they just need something moving ahead navigating them in one direction. Siblings learn to stick together etc.

          Please do not mix these two drastically different sorts of behavior, mimicking your own kind or other kinds. Parrots do not imitate human voice for to speak, but mimic sounds they like, not for exchanging words at all.

          You maybe watch this documentary about very young Canadian gees/chicks who lost their parents and the farmer "replaced" them teaching them to fly - he had a small self-made plane that the young gees eventually followed. The Ducklings did Not mimic a human - but a Human imitated a Duck!

          My point is firm :(

          About us, fantastic humans. I think we are gifted with one inriguing talent - to mimic and imitate but we prefer this way to know ourselves.. by imitating others, constantly in our minds while thinking and imagining (the same thing) - we are able to act as if we are very many characters and things.. Often some characters are "fighting" inside us to be a dominating one.
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        Apr 13 2014: Just by simple reason we could easily come to the conclusion, that our given arrangement on this planet is far from being sustainable, which makes the continuation of our behavior totally illogical.

        Yet as I do not see any sufficient change of it, of us, even if there was a ''superb intuition', we keep on rendering it irrelevant day by day.

        By the way, one of the reason of the cultural pessimism I learned over my years ... :o)
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          Apr 14 2014: A new intriguing topic brewing from your thinking:

          We are alive unique beings because of unavoidable nature's laws of instability, unbalance, imperfection and impossiblity of any sort of exactness, perfect copies or units or repetitions etc Heraclitus explained this as Flux.

          Shall we learn about this in our elementary school?
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        Apr 14 2014: I accept your explanation, Vera, although I do not share any aspect in it. :o)

        And I have only one rejection, which is, that I don't perceive our species as 'only humans' but as 'humans', one of many animal species, and as such part of nature and of it all.

        If we compensate with our rational, spiritual or emotional abilities for 'ever unknown to us realities' may well be, yet we wouldn't even know, leave alone notice, if John or Jane Doe was having it right ... :o)

        So far I am happy to recall at least some of my own and major motives I had in my life so far to reconstruct some of my decisions in the past to understand at least fractional what got me here today, which is what makes me very careful concerning my neighbors, birds and others ...:o)

        I know so little for certain, and that little what is, is uncertain in itself. So what if not this would keep us as curious as we, humans, tend to be, at least in positive, meaningful intentions? :o)
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        Apr 14 2014: 'Shall we learn about this in our elementary school?'

        Is there a natural law of instability? Entropy maybe and its strive to increase disorder at the expense of of order? I am not certain, if it is, as I rather think that it matters only what one thinks about what 'order' is in order to determine weather it in- or decreases.

        My understanding of order for instance is highly connected with stability, as to me it determines the robustness of something against changes. So when the universe disperses itself towards increasing levels of entropy, which would lead to the definite destruction of all life as we know it, it actually transforms into a way more stable form than it was before.

        Actually, life as we know it seems only possible at the edges at which order disperses into chaos, so I wouldn't be surprised if we would find reflections of this within our very existence.

        Another question would be, how to deal with our imperfections? Do we accept them as part of us and misuse it as excuse not to change our behavior, or do we strive to improve. Yet then who comes to defines what improvement was and why?

        I am not familiar with Heraclitus Flux, yet I doubt that humans are incapable of certain levels of exactness, the question to me rather is, is this exactness compatible with our emotional abilities. This to me is where most of our errors stem from, as well as from our ability to 'blind out' on certain topics when they begin to conflict with our 'comfort zones'.

        So how do we teach our children in order to enable them to evolve society rather than to perpetuate the status quo?

        The most promising school concept I know of so far is the 'green school' concept, yet when one takes a closer look at it, it is highly incompatible with the current, yet dominant and ruling economic system, against which is has to go up against at some point in time:

        www.greenschool.org

        It remains to be seen to which level of exactness our species is capable of, or if we just rely on adaptation
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          Apr 14 2014: Green School in Bali, Indonesia is giving its students a natural, holistic and student-centered education in one of the most amazing environments on the planet. It is a truly Beautiful example.

          I was trying to develop some 25 acre land surrounded by rugged mountains of Nevada desert. It was my attempt to build a school within a futuristic community, sustainable and ethical society. Small classses of very diverse characters, talents and minds learning of how to co-exist with nature and each other..
          some very costly attempt.. www.novatownsite.org
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          Apr 14 2014: Lejan, may I ask you to clarify this, if you can find a few minutes :)

          You said "I am not familiar with Heraclitus Flux, yet I doubt that humans are incapable of certain levels of exactness, the question to me rather is, is this exactness compatible with our emotional abilities."

          Heraclitus, along with a few Greek sages over 2500 years old, was my first great teacher, I was 11 at that time. As a matter of fact their writing, whatever is left of them, have saved my sanity..(I was conviced by looking at people around me that humans were akmost all psychotic creatures)
        • Apr 16 2014: Interesting

          Take a sunny day, and sun light shining through a slatted window, and then gently blow a stream of thick smoke into it, and watch; the dispersed smoke then begins to coalesce and form into interacting curvatures of patterns; why because patterns are the geometric precursors, of the greater geometric formations of the universe; that all originate from a state of chaos; because the geometric rules that exist within the order of the universe; also exist within a state of chaos.

          Which is why energy may be converted, but it cannot be destroyed; and all energy though it may appear physically divided, energy as a holism is never disconnected, because it is an infinite and eternal holism.

          (or rather holism is the only word/nearism that is available to use to speak of the universe as whole, despite it being boundless and limitless IMO/conviction)
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        Apr 14 2014: 'Oh NO, Lejan. The ducks do NOT imitate or mimic humans - they have no doubts about who they really are, what to eat and how to swim.'

        Absolutely! And I have been to blurry to get the point across I was going to make.

        Different from your perspective, I do not perceive ducklings being superior in knowing 'who they are' compared to us, as their neural limitations, which are mainly instinct driven, do not allow them to adjust to cognitive more challenging levels.

        They are restricted that much tn their 'if - then' instinct directives, that thy don't even try to mimic what they consider their parent. So in terms of learning, there is not much for them to need supervision for, which seems to be advantageous enough for this species to avoid distinction.

        Yet is this to be considered superior to 'know' about oneself?

        I have my doubts to see it that way, neither do I consider our cognitive abilities as 'the crown' of evolution, as it comes with a whole palette of different issues by which we confront not only our own species yet others as well.

        The price of our mental abilities seems to be manifold and reason for us to have lost the sense for being part of a bigger 'whole', although I question that a duck or goose has it as we may think they have.

        I also think that we are many 'characters' and 'things' in each individual, as you say, yet isn't this more enriching than restricting? :o)
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          Apr 14 2014: Your question based on what I've said "I also think that we are many 'characters' and 'things' in each individual" ---and yours: "yet isn't this more enriching than restricting?"

          I'd like to think that it is our very special primordually theatrical imagination that we have been developing into what we call thinking (developing this for many millennia).

          I cannot say that it is our superiority. When I imagine myself as if I'm my cat, or a bird outside in my garden, I feel overwhelmed with endlessly complicated signals they might receive and interpret for themselvs in every instant ... We are, as humans, way more limited - when we try to understand our situation we perfer to observe only a framed simplified scenario. We are lost when we try to think on so many levels...
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        Apr 14 2014: I may be wrong, yet it somehow feels, that you see any species but ours in harmony within itself and its surrounding. And as if it was our fault to be what we are.

        A motive which reminds me strongly on the teachings of the Christian church, by which we got kicked out of paradise, because we dared to eat from the tree of wisdom.

        Yet besides being my cat and probably yours as well, I wouldn't change place with any other species I know of if I had the change to do so. Would you?

        If I look at the birds in my garden, or elsewhere, I often feel thankful not be in their situation of being constantly alarmed by almost anything. It must feel terrible to be at the lower end of many others food-chains, which we could easily get a refreshing taste of if we would dare to leave our modern comfort zones to expose ourself to another reality nature constantly keeps stored for us.

        I also assume, that we would quickly re-learn to listen differently into nature and to sharpen other senses as well, if our very existence relied on it.

        I haven't done it yet, but I imagine I would behave quite differently walking in the woods of Canada than I do walk in the woods of Germany... because here we have no bears anymore.

        Thats why I do not measure my 'alienation' towards nature by abilities, but by training and necessity, because I believe we still have what it takes to survive in 'the wild', yet because it isn't pleasant, we have no reason to choose for it as long as we still have more comfortable alternatives.

        Besides a one way ticket to remote areas, it doesn't cost us a thing but our comfort to return to our origin and if we would make it for one year or two, I am pretty convinced, that we would listen differently to endlessly complicated signals yet knew which once to be aware of ...
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        Apr 14 2014: Legan, Lehan ... today seems to be the day of creative permutation of names ... :o)

        Anyway, I am more than willing to 'find a few minutes' , Wera :o), to clarify your question about me not knowing about Heraclitus Flux, yet although I read your lines several times, I cant find a question I could actually answer.

        I am sorry to hear that you were surrounded by so many psychotic creatures at one time, and I am happy that some old Greeks could save your sanity in that period, yet what would you like me to answer here?

        That I missed over 2500 years the chance to finally read them? Is that part of a clarification I am not getting? :o)
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          Apr 14 2014: So sloppy of me, Lejan, Yes, Lejan. I make typos but this one is unforgiving, I did not mean to do this those keys on a keyboard, "J" and "H", are right next to one another.) Wera
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        Apr 14 2014: 'It was my attempt to build a school within a futuristic community ... some very costly attempt'

        By reading your words, it appears, that you attempt to realize this school didn't work out well for you?

        Sorry to hear, Vera, because much of what you are stating in the 'Philosophy' of NOVA TOWN is what makes the most sense to me to reorganize our societies for a better. Yet at the moment the ruling trend is the absolute opposite.
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          Apr 14 2014: Well, we did preliminary preparation for the construction, also digging a very deep well, supplying us with the most pure water you can get on earth. But when we were about to sign the construction loan documents - and it was approved! that very local bank financially "collapsed"...it was very sudden and just crazy - our local economy has been ruined based on superb mass hysteria, screaming "real estate prices must-hit-the-bottom!" and properties were re-appraised by another moronic bunch - appraisers :) Means those properties were having new price-tags !! which could not even show the real value of the materials from which properties were built! Should never happen in Nevada - very independent from the rest of the country, local economy! Billions here are made by those casinos on millions of losers who're just multiplying in greater numbers - when they lose their jobs. Another psychological task to watch.

          P.S. I had to witness,first hand, how these moronic "experts"/ economists, are leading blind but highly emotional population to disasters. These moves were not just stupid but were undoubly demonstrating mass-psychotic behavior. How can you help these people? They would not know that famous British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli has been saying: NEVER TRUST EXPERTS.
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        Apr 14 2014: 'Yes, Lejan. I make typos but this one is unforgiving ...'

        You mean there is nothing we could do about it and your soul has to carry this burden from now on till the end of times and eternity? That is quite something when one thinks about it ...

        Aren't typos considered as artistic expression in written form? No? Well, then from now on they are!

        Puh! That was close! Just to bad I didn't have this idea when I still was in elementary school ...

        ;o)

        I didn't sleep last night and have to make up for it now to be able to sing the early bird off its tree tomorrow and before dawn, as my first and official experiment to find out about this species intuition towards perfidious forms of unexpected and sweet human revenge ... :o)

        Less unexpected, experimental and bare of any revenge, WERA!, I'll reply to your second comment tomorrow too. ;o)

        Until then, good night sleep tight and don't let the bedbugs bite!

        #Lehan
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          Apr 14 2014: Sweet dreams and new discoveries while your mind is free of daily fussy mode of life.
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        Apr 15 2014: Thank you, yet the night stayed dreamless to my consciousness.

        I always though, that the purest water I could get on this planet was that of a molten and distilled drill-core of a polar deep ice drill, less from the Nevada desert. Yet as both are a bit off my daily paths for direct comparison, I'll trust you on that.

        It is sad to hear, that your interesting project got destroyed by the absurdity of our sacred economic system, but as long as we keep it, we're not going to evolve in any meaningful and sustainable era.

        The casino business actually is the best place to study the basic principles into what the current economy has transformed into over the years, and as long as we allow this to happen, as long the casino owners will have their way...

        I once visited Atlantic City in a field study, and found one of the most saddest, artificial and faked places I have ever been to.
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          Apr 15 2014: "The casino business actually is the best place to study the basic principles into what the current economy has transformed into over the years, and as long as we allow this to happen, as long the casino owners will have their way..."

          How much truth is in your point, Lejan! Brilliant! I have been watching that psychology of our brainless economy for 10 years..

          As I see casino business it is the most open book showing how our postmodern economy operates. Unlike casinos though, other industries we supposedly depend on, masquerade their tricky ways to get paid.. offering useless productions. (sorry for my typos!)

          I love casino open mentality - "come here and lose your money - we will take it and give you nothing. Clearly this is what you ask for."
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          Apr 15 2014: I cannot give up on my Living Futuristic town..even though I just lost a fortune for no good reason (that project could create a fantastic boost to local economy even while getting built)

          I am truly no good to bother people and select a group of very energetic, devoted to this projects individuals for contacting donors or investors.

          I still have dependable architects who are ready to get back to me to work on new developing. Have scholars supporting me (in everything I do so far), have construction company who are excited to start building something "internationally astounding", and know innovative small industries.. but I have to pay them, at least something. I also lost the land.

          Am looking for some different way to start it all over again.

          Bless, for your thoughful words.
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        Apr 16 2014: Did you ever think about the possibility, that it may hinder other individuals to contribute to a town, a life project which already carries the name of its initiator?

        It would certainly stop me, as even if I could completely identify with the conceptional idea behind it, it would 'feel' as if I my participation,all my energy was finally put into and for the purpose of another persons 'dream'.

        And unless this person wouldn't belong to my closest, inner circle, my skepticism over any 'personal cult' would exceed my wish to partake in a local makeover of society.

        What I found so far is, that nobody will ask for any money for their work, if they believe in what they are doing is right for them. Certainly, starting over from within a ruling system is calling for compromises on all sides, yet if doubts in the new idea stay to high, it is likely that it will fail.

        But I truly hope, that you'll find like-minded individuals, each with their own talents, ideas and passion to spark for a better society, a better world as one of countless local movements, which combine and unite without giving up their very unique, enriching diversity.

        So far I can't think of any better way to stop the wildfire of a brutal and inhumane trend of economic globalization ...

        After all, it is all about and on us!
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          Apr 16 2014: Excellent point. I did not invent the name - those were my friends who did, for the "fun" and convinience..I guess.

          It is a PUBLIC project - for the PUBLIC.

          It is to make a very first step towards mutual and Active collaboration in building an actual thing. (not just for talks/ discussion or ideas). I deeply understand that its name shall be reflecting that collaboration. I'm far from being that egotistic idiot..and see that I cannot do all those things on my own. Well, I've invested endless work and a ton of money in it already, but have no sense of bitterness even though admit the progress was not that great yet, mostly my loses.

          One thing works great for sure - people get so Excited ! all sorts of people - but they want to come and live in that place when it is built!! some offered down payments we could not accept yet. Any stratigic idea how to start all over again?

          P.S. I'm the worst person to bag for donations/ investment, still must find someone who is experienced.
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        Apr 16 2014: What about Kickstarter for fund raising?

        www.kickstarter.com

        It may also serve as a platform to get you in touch with people who act on their excitement and not just cheer on it?

        But I am possibly the last person on this planet to give you good advice on funding. ;o)


        And yes, I did understand that your project is PUBLIC, and no, I do not experience you as an egoistic nor any other form of idiot. On the contrary. And I agree, that NOVA Town sounds better than Leningrad... ;o)

        I was just giving you my unfiltered impression as feedback. Thats all. And this from the worst possible source you didn't ask for: An almost impossible to show open excitement German AND mechanical engineer...

        So it can only go up from there ... LOL

        ;o)
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          Apr 16 2014: I so appreaciate your vivid curiosity! Thanks for the website - I need to figure out what i can do with it..sounds familiar though.

          I enjoy all your comments very much as they are German, and perfectly Mechanically engineered :) they cannot get any more constructive!!

          I need to be cheered up a little, and especially by a far-away-fellow, someone like lively and intelligent yourself, because I'm closely surrounded by a bunch of dry-minded people.

          Best Regards from Leningrad, until I change the name.
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        Apr 16 2014: I am afraid you are a bit late o change the name of Leningrad, 23 years to be precise, yet as the new/old one also pays homage to a personal cult, you may succeed to convince its residents to rename it again ... Good luck! :o)

        Then i was thinking of ways to intentionally cheer you up a bit, yet failed, but your situation must be very serious, if you consider me as an alternative to dry-minded people ... lol

        Yet concerning your funding needs, did you ever consider or think about to start a workers-cooperation, in short, coop, as a nucleus to slowly grow a like-minded community and shared financial means to transform it from there and over time into an alternative local society?

        So far, coops seem to me the most promising, most democratic way to change the given economy back towards the needs of and not against its people. Unlike Germany, the USA seems to have several successful coop's already from which one could probably learn.
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          Apr 16 2014: Coop? Must learn about that. Good to hear from you :)

          (I'm half Austrian-German and half French, genetically, experiencing a little non-stop war in me. Well, a German Gene wants to be a learned philosopher suggesting colossal ideas, it demands reasons and logic, but also composes heavy poetical music. The other, French Gene, trusts it's a super chef, at the same time works on starting a revolution..)
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        Apr 16 2014: Maybe 'Leningrad' wasn't that far fetched then ..., because thats what happened when the Russians merged the French Revolution with German philosophy ... ;o)

        And being that close to a symbol of capitalism as you are, some highly influential people would get pretty nervous if they knew about your 'explosive' genetic potential ... lol

        But if you also inherited a bit of the 'Austrian-cosiness' and the French 'Laissez-faire' and/or 'Joie de vivre', then no one but 'that few' would have any reason to fear your revolutionary thoughts!

        On coop's you may find some useful informations here:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative
        http://www.usworker.coop/about

        And closest initiative to your place here:

        http://www.gofundme.com/5azn98

        Which also displays, similar to 'kickstarter', how this new form of crowd funding can be used to finance alternative ideas.

        And you are also a super chef? Good, very good, because only revolutions on an empty stomach make radical and unreflected moves! lol ;o)
    • Apr 13 2014: Lejan

      Quote: I often wonder what happened to them over night, which makes it that urgent to share it the very moment they get up ... I have no idea ... :o)

      The dawn chorus; an ode to joy to be alive, thats what its about: A Brand New Day.
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        Apr 13 2014: So you understand what they are singing, Carl? You speak all their languages? And if so, would you consider to share your knowledge with ornithologists? Because as much as I know they haven't decoded most of it so far.

        Or are you sharing a romanticized interpretation about your observations on birds?

        We have a given tendency to humanize behavioral pattern of other animal species, which is quite a risky habit, yet seems to be part of our way to lend meaning and purpose to what surrounds us.

        By staying in your picture, I wonder, why only birds praise a brand new day, every day and does this makes wolves to be terribly out of sync when they howl the moon? Why don't humans sing in the morning on similar scale? Or can we take those who do under the morning shower take as remnants of a long forgotten habit of ours? And if so, why only under the shower? Did we sing when our branch of evolution still grew in the oceans? Are we descendants of sirens?

        If you have the pleasure to live in the countryside, you may come to notice, that the 'dawn chorus' does not stop after dawn, as they keep on singing. Every now and then you can have birds singing in the middle of the night, started by one individual and joined in by a view neighboring others. Impatient ones or anticipation?

        Again, I have no idea and your explanation does not give me any either. But thanks for sharing!
        • Apr 13 2014: Wolves are nocturnal. The moon illuminates the prey. Howling wolves and singing birds sound energetic, celebratory, celebrating the success of being energetic, to be able to fight another day/night, to me. I'm not like Carl, I daren't use the word "joy" in the context of an animal! "The dawn chorus; an ode to joy to be alive, thats what its about: A Brand New Day."
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          Apr 13 2014: Lejan, would you accept my explanation?

          In order to truly understand a bird I have to become this bird. In order to understand my neighbor I have to become my neighbor. In order to understand a genius I must become this very genius.

          In order to somehow understand Nature and its ways, we have to become everything in it.

          But we're only humans, who can create and live in our own fantasies (horrific and beautiful, boring and stupid), compensating ourselves for the ever unknown to us realities.
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          Apr 14 2014: Carl, Lejan, Rodrigo and Vera,
          I LOVE Carl's explanation of the morning bird chorus....makes me smile!...
          "The dawn chorus; an ode to joy to be alive, thats what its about: A Brand New Day."

          There is a beautiful red cardinal who visits me early every morning and while perched in the tree outside the bedroom window, begins his lovely chatter. I talk back to him from my bed, as I am waking up, although it is sometimes difficult to get my whistle mechanism working early in the morning!!! LOL

          He, and lots of other birds are around the gardens all day, and I continue to learn their language as we share the gardens:>) I believe I have learned the cardinal language pretty well because often, while biking with friends, if I hear a cardinal, I speak to him/her, and the bird follows me for awhile. My friends think this is pretty funny (she's talking to the birds again!)......I LOVE it!

          I believe we can communicate with all kinds of creatures, and one of the first steps is to really listen with all our senses....being aware of body language, expressions, and the possible meanings.

          A friend's dog always greets me at the door with teeth bared, snarling and ferocious sounding. If one pays attention only to the face, it might be frightening. However, we also see the dog's tail wagging enthusiastically....she is sending the message that she can be a VERY good watch dog, so don't mess with her.....AND......she recognizes me and I am welcome:>) After a minute of the snarling routine, she smiles and comes to me to be patted. It's kind of like some people snarling, when that is not really the message they choose to send:>)

          I could go on and on about connections with animals, including those I met in the wild, and the dogs, cats and horses who were my friends for years. Lots of people throughout history have communicated with animals, and that is not surprising.....we need to learn their language to be able to do so:>)
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        Apr 13 2014: Yes, its 'sounds' energetic, yet this doesn't explain to me why our species, which obviously is highly capable to be celebratory, does not have anything alike, nor does it explain to me how you 'know' what reason other species have for their behavior.

        How do you know? And I mean knowing, not guessing!
        • Apr 13 2014: We do "have anything alike".
        • Apr 13 2014: I will be replying to you main question later, as I have other things I have to do first

          However for now, Empathy, intuition, relativity of personal experiences, and life, some knowledge, e.g. an article of perhaps a decade or more ago in New Scientist in regard to parrots called "Flying Primates",a documentary a while ago, A lady in USA showing that parrots can learn language and are capable of abstract thinking.

          Humour: While waiting for a tram under a palm tree, a small piece of wood fell down beside me, automatically looked up, could not see anything; a minute or two later a slightly larger piece hit me on the head. So looking up at the top of the palm I started to and continued backing away to get a more lateral view of the top of the palm. And then there they were two Galah's and as the one saw me, it immediately started bobbing its head and body up and down with its partner then joining.

          Now I am sure you can come up with some other cold clinical reasoning, or quote something from a scientific article etc; I could not care less, I loved it and it made my day.

          And yes as a child I used to cycle 25 miles out of the city to the nearest hills to listen to the dawn chorus; and spent nearly five months in isolation in the bush waking and listening to it every single day; and I only have to step out my door now, to listen to it if I want every day
        • Apr 16 2014: We do in childhood. and then we are educated away from it
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        Apr 13 2014: @ Rodrigo Capucho Paulo :

        'We do "have anything alike".'

        I don't understand what you mean by that. Could you please explain more in detail an less in parables what you mean by that and what your understanding is?
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        Apr 13 2014: Good to know you near to nature, but then, how and when do you draw the line for the 'dawn chorus' to be an expression of cheer joy of live to the ongoing concert of birds plain communicative business?

        It is interesting to me to know how you do that, because I cant.

        As I am aware that my empathy, my intuition can be dead wrong, because it has been in the past, how do you determine weather your impressions are right or less so and may originate from other sources of your imagination?

        And no, I do not perceive other animal species as plain and only instinct driven automata, on the contrary, and neither did I say nor do I think that only humans are capable of abstract or intelligent thinking, yet I do wonder how you can be that certain about the true meaning of an early birds song.

        So if my questions, my obvious doubts about your answer makes my line of thoughts, my lack of knowledge a 'cold clinical reasoning', I wonder how you may perceive science in general.

        What is 'cold' in my question to you how do you know what you claim? Because I don't 'buy' it immediately? Because I am lacking YOUR intuition? Or because it is difficult to you to explain your intuition to me?

        The latter was right on the subject, because there is no form to share 'intuition' in any way, neither a way to ever know how close we ever get even when we try.

        It is perfectly fine for me if you perceive the bird singing in the morning as you do, yet do allow me for not adopting it without asking for more detail about it.

        And if your only explanation was YOUR intuition, or YOUR empathy, than that was fine to me too, yet no reason for me to have any more idea about it than I had before, because as an argument I could work with and think about seriously, this wouldn't be enough at all, as of those I can imagine a multitude of possible explanations and reasons myself.

        So let me ask you again, how do you know that the birds singing in the morning is an 'ode to joy to be alive' and not something els
        • Apr 14 2014: Legan

          I will get back to you but life is pretty busy at the moment, have a ton of work to do revising and transferring work,

          For now, think of yourself being a father perched on a branch out there in the "wilderness", and near by is your mate in her nest with your offspring, and darkness of the night is coming down, whereby your vision will become limited, but your hearing will increase, as a means of increasing the sounds of of the night, as a means of detecting danger (snakes owls etc)

          Then you see the sun rising, you and your family have survived another night, and you have back your vision and the light of day, whereby you stand a better chance of evading and avoiding predators. And you can have the joy of feeding your kids and watching their antics etc and socializing with your flock etc etc. Would you not be overjoyed to see the Sun rising?

          Intuition can stem from empathy, empathy can stem from intuition and both are relative to reasoning, experiences, memories, emotions, knowledge in no particular order, as they apply eclectically to all different types of scenarios and ongoing life experiences:

          Each one of us represents a personal sphere of activity, relative to every other living creatures sphere of activity; and it is indeed interesting that whereas, in the past our personal spheres of activity would say in a small town, communicate and interact directly with the other peoples personal spheres of interaction, communication, and actions; our spheres of interactivity now are interacting on the larger scale of being international via the www.

          On second thoughts won't get back to you think this covers it.
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        Apr 14 2014: @ Rodrigo Capucho Paulo:

        Yes, we have music, and what is your point in in this context in bringing this up?
        • Apr 14 2014: Lejan

          Our music is like birds' singing and wolves' howling. We have orgasm. The evolutionary purpose of orgasm is to make sure we procreate. Orgasm isn't a mutation exclusive to humans only. So, animals feel. I don't know what the evolutionary purpose of joy is in humans. Do you?
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        Apr 14 2014: Thank you for sharing your imaginations, Karl.
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        Apr 14 2014: @ Rodrigo Capucho Paulo:

        I assume joy to be an evolutionary feedback system, a stimulus within our nervous system to get into certain situations which have a high potential to have an positive effect on our physical and mental health.

        Pain would be its opposite, as it usually provokes avoidance in our behavior, where it is possible.

        Yet neither pain, nor joy are 'self conscious', thats why we can damage, even destroy ourselves by the misuse of drugs (which triggers joy) or by chronic pain, which can be inescapable.

        I am highly in doubt that our form of musical expression is anything alike when birds sing in melodic ways, because as much as I am aware of, this is their verbal way to communicate.

        That some of their dialects are pleasing to our ears is out of question to me, yet just because it aligns to our harmonic and melodic abilities, doesn't mean that it is intentionally applied to the same meaning as we would have it.

        I am certain that also birds will have something similar in stimulus what we call 'joy' as they experience pain as well, in my opinion. And I also think that they will have some vocabulary to express this. But I am highly in doubt, that this species is joyful all the time they open their beaks, and because I don't speak their language, I don't know what they are actually talking about.

        About certain tweets I can make assumptions about their meaning, as they are somewhat similar in my ears at similar situations. Such as when my cat walks in the garden, the likelihood of a certain response in birds tweeting is significantly increased, as if my cat isn't out. Yet to be certain on this I had to do some experiments to eliminate chance and personal imagination.
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        Apr 14 2014: @ Colleen

        Thank you for sharing your experiences with animals
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          Apr 14 2014: My pleasure Lejan:>)

          It is interesting and enjoyable to explore languages with various critters, and it is joyful to remember the experiences, so thank YOU for offering the opportunity:>)

          I watched a documentary about dogs not too long ago, based on studies by several researchers over a period of many years. They studied the evolution of dogs, and how they have adapted to humans. The question asked at the end of the presentation was....."are humans really more intelligent than dogs"? The information provided, caused me to seriously wonder!

          Critters, other than humans, seem to have developed stronger instinct/intuition....perhaps because they do not have complex languages? Although, dolphins have a pretty extensive vocabulary of their own, and still seem to understand humans.

          My feeling, in general, is that human languages may NOT be the most intelligent communication tool, and perhaps instinct/intuition are more beneficial? Interesting to ponder and explore:>)
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        Apr 14 2014: No problem Colleen to have offered this unintentional opportunity to you and others to display a variety of interpretations and intuitions on human/animal encounters.

        And although many words have been exchanged on this, my question has not been answered for me so far to any degree, as the field of intuition withdraws itself naturally of any discussion and debate, as it is a matter of believe, not of argument.

        So it seems I am doomed to keep wondering about 'what happened to birds over night, which makes it that urgent to share it the very moment they get up', yet it it is just one of many things I wonder about ... :o)
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          Apr 14 2014: Lejan,
          I suggest that because birds are so busy and engaged with life all day, they sleep very well at night....no sleep disturbances with them. So, when they arise, they are energetic, enthusiastic and eager to start the day. How does that sound?

          That's kind of how I arise in the morning, so I'm projecting!!! LOL:>)

          Please don't lose any sleep while pondering what happens to birds at night:>)
        • Apr 14 2014: Hi Legan

          Well I am enjoying this conversation, problem is I am torn between it and my other work, and I still owe Vera a reply; however as to the dawn chorus; we do not whether the birds are singing or not, or if in effect they are shouting to each other in the morning to check up on each other. However what we do know is that the whole of the singing or shouting is joyful in nature; and this is a common human consensus of our combined "intuitions"; which is defined by the fact that we refer to it as being "choral" in nature or a chorus of songs, and it transmits to us various accents of melody. that have varied effects upon our mood at that particular moment in time.

          Sometimes, it may bring a sense of peace after perhaps some sad or traumatic experience, or perhaps given a lighter mood of ourselves, a feeling of peace and tranquility, or a feeling of spirituality, sometimes a deep sense of being connected to and belonging to nature; and as we listen, it can even mellow our senses causing us to be even more observation of the creatures of nature within our vicinity; and these I mention are only a small number of the ways it can effect us. Simply and very inadequately put, whatever our mood, the dawn chorus serves to tune us in to the wonder of natural kingdom, which we are of and all belong to; and the hows and whys cannot be pinned down, and clinically categorized and placed into a vein, or veins of linear thinking; it is amorphous, it is eclectic, it is ever changing, and it is never miserable or depressing to our souls.

          As to the original question, I would say rather are human "languages" the most intelligent tool to use to communicate; and I would say no: The reason being that all creatures have the commonality of mental imagery (IMO)/picture; therefore an international iconic based language would serve us far better than all our written word languages, and would serve us well IT wise, and evolve over time, and our computers could be used to produce it.
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        Apr 14 2014: Hi Carl,

        seems your fingers are twice as big as Vera's or your artistic expressions more towards the G's than her H's. Never mind, art has its own mysterious ways. :o)

        This conversation is open for eleven more days, I need to sleep and therefore will reply tomorrow to you last comment. Seems we are almost on the same page, if my half-closed eyes are not deceiving me ... in short, no pressure on the time issue ... :o)

        #Legan
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        Apr 16 2014: Ok, less on the same page as I thought when I was tired ... ;o)

        What on earth explains a 'common human consensus of our combined "intuitions"?

        That the world was truly flat unless the idea of curvature got introduced by some clever individuals?

        That the pigmentation level of human skin indicates the 'value' of an individual?

        Where is this 'combined intuition' when we kill fish for food more cruel that we do with any other species? Maybe because they can't scream their way of suffering by suffocating into our 'intuition' melodically, or at all?

        Let me give you another example. I don't speak French. And besides a view words I don't understand it. But I love the melody of this language very much. Now, a clever Frenchman, knowing this, could keep insulting me for hours on end, cursing me, giving me all possible vulgar names, but as long as he or she would keep a friendly face and moderate voice, it would sound just beautiful to my ears AND intuition.

        And by this I would be totally fooled even by my OWN species.

        Now how precise can our 'intuition' be for a complete different species? What is our point of reference, for comparison? That bird singing can be melodic? That it triggers or matches certain harmonic responses within us?

        Yes, a bird in pain tweets different than when sitting in peace on a twig. Yet I do not dare to claim to know the difference for 'them' being in total joy compared to sharing total banalities - or worse - by only take the highly charming and melodic ways to my ears as evidence,leave alone 'intuitive' evidence.

        The existence of 'counter intuitive' phenomena may spark some deeper refection on this topic?

        And how would you intuitively feel if you was told, that the airplane you were on was 'intuitively' designed by some engineers who made it? Or that your medical doctor 'intuitively' want's to remove your vocal chords, because to his intuition they will soon develop cancer?
        • Apr 16 2014: 16/4/14 (2) Lejan

          quote" What on earth explains a 'common human consensus of our combined "intuitions"?

          Yes indeed; what does explain it; regardless of whether you consider it to be a vast (7 billion plus people) and rather implausible/impossible coincidence; our overall consensus of shared opinion is that the choral is joyous in nature; however that consensus has not been gained via logic, reason, or analysis, it does not matter whether you are a primitive person living in the jungle, or an educated person; its beauty and its joy touches each one of 7 billion souls equally; and it this is therefore an intuitive consensus, because it is internalized by each and every one of us.

          Why?

          Fundamentally music is comprised of the mathematical ratios, of the tones/reverberations/acoustics/sounds, being integrated/inter played/interacted/organized in chord-ant patterns of various mood effecting music, e.g. symphonies, blues, jazz, rock, etc; so as Birds do not possess any mathematical knowledge, or means by which to consciously compose all of the varied and most wonderful of symphonies of glorious sound, that are taking place around the world, at each of their mornings.

          Who is the mathematician, and who is the conductor, of all of this wondrous music that is reaching out directly to each and every one of us, from the natural kingdom.
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        Apr 16 2014: 'We do in childhood. and then we are educated away from it'

        Even as a child I did not understand the language of birds and what they were talking about then.
        • Apr 17 2014: I am referring to intuition not, bird language
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        Apr 16 2014: 'Yes indeed; what does explain it; regardless of whether you consider it to be a vast (7 billion plus people) and rather implausible/impossible coincidence; our overall consensus of shared opinion is that the choral is joyous in nature'

        So the earth was physically flat at that time when the majority of people intuitively formed that consensus? Do you really believe that?

        Just in case you got the initial question wrong. I asked if you know, that birds are joyful when they sing in the morning, not if their singing is pleasant to you ears.
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        Apr 16 2014: 'Which is why energy may be converted, but it cannot be destroyed; and all energy though it may appear physically divided, energy as a holism is never disconnected, because it is an infinite and eternal holism.'

        How do you know, that this 'holism' you mention is infinite and eternal? Another 'intuition'?
        • Apr 17 2014: Far too many years, and far too long a process of progressive reasoning and logic too be able be able condense down here; see my earlier post. And this is why I am "in the process" of learning how to build (Already lost my front page no matter. still it looks pretty good all the same, but really have got to get more practice in) my new web page and revising, condensing, and transferring. my work to it www.fromthecircletothesphere.com
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        Apr 16 2014: 'Who is the mathematician, and who is the conductor, of all of this wondrous music that is reaching out directly to each and every one of us, from the natural kingdom.'

        'The mathematician', 'the conductor'?

        It is necessary to you to have 'something' or 'someone' which or who arranged that animals use different forms of noise to communicate? Would it hinder your personal joy to listen to some of those noises, if there wasn't anything/anyone?
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        Apr 17 2014: 'I am referring to intuition not, bird language'

        Interesting you separate the two now after you explained the understanding of one by the other.
        • Apr 17 2014: No I did not! go back and check the conversation; at no time have I said that anyone can understand bird language; I do not know nor does anyone to my knowledge know of any real Dr Doolittles.

          You are confusing intuition combined with, experiences,reasoning, knowledge and empathy, = you cannot in reality put yourself in any other living creatures place, nor can you walk a mile in another persons shoes; but logic reason and intelligence combined with empathy and intuition; can serve to build a general picture, if you have lived in isolation in the bush with all its strange noises at night, it does not take a great a great of imagination, to imagine, that birds who have no form of protection from predators through the night, are relieved to see the sun rise, and that their family have survived.

          And if you cannot equate with that, your loss.
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        Apr 17 2014: 'Far too many years, and far too long a process of progressive reasoning and logic too be able be able condense down here. See my earlier post.'

        I did see your earlier post, yet there is no explanation why out of the existence of geometrical pattern in 'the whole' should follow an infinite and eternal existence of 'the whole', as you are claiming.

        Your take on 'Infinity and Eternity' on your web-page doesn't explain anything either as you conclude to 'go home and have a beer, and forget about it altogether', whereby 'it' was to count sheep on an imaginary plain from an imaginary tower.

        In case you followed your own advice, on what other thoughts do you base your claim on? Of special interest to me is, which exact insight of yours marks the line between guessing and knowing that 'the whole' or 'holism', as you framed it, has this remarkable features and no others.

        Or do we go now from 'I can't explain, its intuition' to 'I can't explain, its way to complicated'?
        • Apr 17 2014: Oh yes Lejan

          I am able to condense all the years of my thought processes down, into a few sentences; I do not thinks so get real:

          As I have said I am in the process of revising and condensing and transferring my work from my original web page to the new one; on top of this I have to learn how to build this new web page.

          Plus who do you think you are, that you someone special, that I should spend the time I am I sorely need, in order to carry on and complete that process on you.

          You can wait along with everyone else, otherwise try devoting your own mind to finding the answers to your questions; but the first step towards that, is re-questioning all you have been taught.

          You might begin with the 0 and 360 point of a circle (and a circle is comprised of energy) and the realization that a circle ("cycles" of energy - fundamental substance = energy = particles = matter = atoms = solid matter = order, and ultimate order = critical mass - Novas - chaos = back to fundamental substance) /cycle is mathematically both infinite and eternal; because the 0/360 alpha omega point, can be anywhere on the circle; and thus a circle has no beginning or ending, because its ending is its beginning, and its beginning is its ending.

          Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, which means that it is infinite and eternal (you cannot get rid of it, because it simply converts into another form).

          And the reason is, because it is cyclic (recycles) in nature.

          But you are entitled to believe whatever you want to, and as I have had enough of dealing with closed minds recently and their abuse; I am leaving it there.
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        Apr 17 2014: '... but logic reason and intelligence combined with empathy and intuition; can serve to build a general picture'

        Without question, Carl, all of what you mentioned 'can serve to build a general picture', and my question on you was, how do you determine weather or not those 'pictures' match with the reality of a species, which language you do not understand.

        To me there is no obvious reason why the ending of the night would cause any bird to sing an 'ode to joy to be alive', as you named it, because dawn to them only marks the change of their main predators from nocturnal ones to 'daylight hunters', which to my limited knowledge, are far more in cheer numbers than there are at night.

        Earthbound predators, like cats for instance, hunt for birds night AND day, and have, like many other hunters, binaural hearing and this not only for aesthetic reasons as a 'homage on symmetry', but also to pinpoint the location of noise in space for targeting reasons.

        So in a way, being on that many menus than most birds are, tweeting away their current position at any time of the day is actually the most stupid thing they could possibly do if they are so 'joyful' to have made it into 'another day'.

        For them, 'silence is golden' in the run of survival.

        In analogy to that, I wonder, why Anne Frank did NOT open the window of her and her family hiding place so sing out loud her joy to have made another day escaping the Nazis who hunted them for their ethnicity.

        Did she have no reason to joyfully greet another day? Or was she just smart enough to remain silent about it and to keep it to herself?

        If I was to assume about her motives not to sing aloud, I would go for her cleverness and would act the same way if I ever had to.

        I can only assume that our species has been highly aware about the fact, that the noise it makes could attract predators and acted more wisely upon it while being at some lower end of the general food chain.
        • Apr 17 2014: Lejan

          No you don't get it because you are not intuitive and than is quiet clear; if you were you would know that intuition, is not something that you can coldly and clinically analyze and explain; no more so than you can explain what is the soul.

          If you truly wish to understand intuition, then you have too do the hard yards yourself, because the answer to all the questions you are asking, you already have the answers to, but you will have to go very deep into your psyche, and pass through the fires before you do; it is not pleasant, I do assure you.
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          Apr 18 2014: Lejan and Carl,
          For what it is worth Lejan, based on reading lots of your comments over the years, I think you are very intuitive:>)

          I do not interpret your comment above as trying to explain intuition. It appears to me that you are offering different possibilities regarding why birds sing?

          Carl writes..."if you were (intuitive) you would know that intuition, is not something that you can coldly and clinically analyze and explain; no more so than you can explain what is the soul."

          And he continues to try to explain it....based on his personal interpretation....???

          I agree with Carl's insightful statement in another comment....
          "but the first step towards that, is re-questioning all you have been taught."

          For Carl to decide that you "are not intuitive", seems rather harsh and not very logical, intuitive or realistic.....and also.....not following his own advice to- "re-question"
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        Apr 17 2014: Why humans should now assume that bird are joyful and not just plain clueless about the risks they are actually taking in tweeting away their position, remains unanswered to me still.

        I assume that once we've gotten at top of the food-chain, we rather tend to romanticize about it, by our inborn ability of imagination.

        Do I like the birds singing? Yes, very much so, yet I enjoy it as it is and without speculating about its meaning, purpose and motivation.
        • Apr 17 2014: Then why bother asking the questions; and what you are clearly showing me, is that you are not really interested at all; and any response given is a waste of my life hours, which are irreplaceable; and better spent on my work.

          So don't bother asking anymore
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        Apr 17 2014: I think I asked you quite a real question, Carl, about your 'insights' and what you claim to know about certain things, and why this should indicate to be 'closed minded' and 'abusive' remains unclear to me as well.

        'Plus who do you think you are, that you someone special, that I should spend the time I am I sorely need, in order to carry on and complete that process on you.'

        I think I am no more special than anybody else is, Carl, yet it wasn't me who urged you to reply on my comment about birds. It was you who made that decision, alongside with your claim about the purpose of birds singing in the morning.

        Now, do you really expect me to read, leave alone wait, for your thoughts in html format?

        I already read your current take on 'eternity and infinity' and it didn't explain anything to me, neither in itself, nor in the given context you opened by your free choice to partake in this conversation.

        So can it be, that people who question your explanations about 'the world, the universe and anything' are discomforting you?

        Certainly you are free to leave this conversation at any time, and I am perfectly fine with that, but the reactions in your last comment leaves a certain taste to me about your true intentions when exchanging your mind with those of others ...

        Anyway, thanks for sharing your views.
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        Apr 17 2014: 'Then why bother asking the questions; and what you are clearly showing me, is that you are not really interested at all; and any response given is a waste of my life hours, which are irreplaceable; and better spent on my work.

        So don't bother asking anymore'


        I thought you already left this conversation... but obviously you didn't, so I'll answer:

        Allow me to stress again the fact, that it wasn't me who urged you into this conversation, nor was it me who claimed to know what causes birds to sing in the morning. On the contrary, as I clearly mentioned, that 'I have no idea' about it.

        Then you offered to me 'your view' on it to fill me in ideas I was missing, which was fine, although the topic itself was more meant as a funny side-note rather than an 'open invitation' for discussion, yet I am flexible there as not all intentions become clear to others and so I didn't mind to move on from there.

        Yet now I should 'don't bother asking anymore'? How comes that? Because your explanations didn't resonate in me? I am sorry for that Carl, but so far, they just don't and this even on more than 'just' rational levels.

        But this seems not enough, as you move on accusing me to be 'not really interested at all'... because of what? That I don't fall on my knees in awe about your explanations AND the time you spent in sharing them with me ...?

        Oh dear, I must have truly proofed to be not worthy of your attention ... :o)
        • Apr 17 2014: Lejan

          QT: Allow me to stress again the fact, that it wasn't me who urged you into this conversation, nor was it me who claimed to know what causes birds to sing in the morning. On the contrary, as I clearly mentioned, that 'I have no idea' about it.

          Then you offered to me 'your view' on it to fill me in ideas I was missing, which was fine, although the topic itself was more meant as a funny side-note rather than an 'open invitation' for discussion, yet I am flexible there as not all intentions become clear to others and so I didn't mind to move on from there.

          Points

          1.No one needs an invite, it is an "Internationally open conversation"

          2. I simply made joyful comment, comment in regard to what I consider to be one of natures wonders, and a thing of beauty and inspiration; and this was simply accepted by others without any need of explanation, apart from an attuned comment from Colleen: Why! Intuition which comes of being closer/more attuned with the resonation's extending from the natural kingdom.

          3. However you chose not to let me freely express my feelings of joy; instead you then chose to dissect and attack it, from your own cold and clinically based perspective, and so called and black and white political correctness.

          Which is the same mode of thinking, and method used in the law courts demanding yes and no answers; that do not contain the grey areas of the context of mitigating circumstances etc, that has resulted in a conservative estimate of 1 - 5 on death row being innocent.

          So thanks for spoiling it for me at least, as I cannot speak for others;
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          Apr 18 2014: Lejan and Carl,
          Since Carl mentions my name in the previous comment, I feel I can pop in here:>)

          Yes Carl, I think/feel your comment about the birds waking up to the new day is beautiful, and that is what I clearly expressed.

          Based on my intuitive and logical observations while reading all the comments, I would not say that Lejan is the one "attacking" in your shared conversation. My perception is that he is adding to the conversation by questioning for further clarification and understanding.

          He cannot "spoil" anything for you, and you COULD follow your own advice...."...the first step towards that, is re-questioning all you have been taught."

          You have the choice to continue the conversation, quit the conversation, perceive the questions differently than you are apparently perceiving, respond differently, etc. etc. etc....the choices are unlimited. No one has the ability to "spoil" a conversation for you, unless you expect him/her to agree with you all the time?
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        Apr 17 2014: 'Lejan

        No you don't get it because you are not intuitive and than is quiet clear; if you were you would know that intuition, is not something that you can coldly and clinically analyze and explain; no more so than you can explain what is the soul.

        If you truly wish to understand intuition, then you have too do the hard yards yourself, because the answer to all the questions you are asking, you already have the answers to, but you will have to go very deep into your psyche, and pass through the fires before you do; it is not pleasant, I do assure you.'

        You seem to need several attempts to finally leave this conversation, Carl, but thats OK.

        You now claim that I am 'not intuitive' and that one has 'to go very deep into your psyche, and pass through the fires before' one finds the 'answer to all the questions'.

        Now, how do you know that I haven't passed 'my fires' yet found different answers than yours within it?

        How do you know that there is only one set of 'valid answers' and of 'valid intuition'?

        Because you found yours? Is that your measure of the 'one and only truth'?

        Give me a break!

        Thats the same source religions made and make their claims from to be 'the only valid one'.

        And given your reactions towards me, it appears that you carry the same shallow motive to claim authority over others to have found the 'infinite answer and knowledge of it all'.

        We've heard that many times before throughout history and still do!

        So good luck in spreading your 'yet another enlightenment' successfully on the web, as it may take some truly serious skills in programming and web-design to not get lost among all the other promises already out there ...

        :o)
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        Apr 17 2014: I am sorry if I spoiled your feeling of joyful expression, Carl, yet with no word you indicated that your comment about the dawn chorus was your personal interpretation of it.

        'The dawn chorus; an ode to joy to be alive, thats what its about: A Brand New Day.'

        If you would have added to this statement something like 'thats how I see it' or 'thats what I think it is' I would not have asked any further.

        But don't expect me or others to leave uncommented a statement which contains 'thats what its about' without asking for further clarification why that should be the case.

        You can see this world as you like, that is perfectly fine with me, you can also state whatever you like, this is also perfectly fine with me, yet as you rightly stated yourself, an 'Internationally open conversation' does not need an invitation to ask further questions and also to question what you are stating.

        When disagreement appears to you as 'cold and clinically' and makes you feel that someone 'dissect and attack' your thoughts, then I can only conclude that you have not come across often with other and independent thinkers, as otherwise you would already know how to deal with it.

        Many of your reactions and accusations I found when I was debating with very religious people, who seem to feel very uncomfortable when someone keeps asking simple questions about their claims.

        To me there is nothing cold in logic, reason and seeking for evidence, as I have no other filter than that against arbitrariness, fallacy and lies.

        It may surprise you after this discussion, that I love to imagine natures 'little spirits' when I walk through the countryside or the woods. That elves, dwarf's, gnomes and trolls and many more have their very business and meaning in all of this. And thinking this has a calming effect on my mind when it is troubled by something, or just enjoyable when my mood is fine.

        I imagine and enjoy this despite the fact that I have no evidence about any of those spirits.
        • Apr 18 2014: Lejan

          Please refer to my reply to Vera.

          I take your point. however somethings are spontaneous and just need to be said; and the term thats what its about, means that is my opinion, if I had to qualify everything I said so meticulously; I would be dead before I would get to say anything meaningful, or worthwhile.

          AS to the religions agreed, but just do not look to the religions look at the sciences and everything else with a healthy degree of skepticism; "rhetorical question" in regard to everyday reality.

          Why is it that we have no choice but to allow the Banks to receive our earnings, as a major part of their income which they use to charge us and everyone else interest on it, prior to their placing it on paper as being our income: And why is it that they have been allowed to charge me and all others to get our own money back, that they have already been charging us all interest on: And why is it that they get "our tax payers money" at low interest rates from the reserve banks at very low interest; and then allowed to charge us all 6 or more times that low interest rate, on our own money "that has been given to them by our privatizing of "our public - common wealth" owned assets; and sell bonds internationally in regard to our future GDP; or put put more simply, sell all of our futures, into international bondage.

          People need to stop simply looking into the face of the realities of life, and instead look through into, and beyond the eyes of that face, and observe the realities that lie beyond the falsities of the the facades, of life.

          As to elves, dwarves, trolls etc I have no such imaginings: I also have to thank you (hopefully if successful in my search) as you stimulated the thought to arise, that someone must have recorded the Dawn Chorus on "vinyl", so I am going onto google to search for it; and if you could listen to it on an analogue stereo system, rather than CD, you might feel feel it touch your soul.

          Will get back to you.
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        Apr 17 2014: But unless I have evidence, verifiable evidence, I take it as my very imagination and nothing else.

        But it stays mine and I do not expect anyone else to share it. In fact, I don't often share this world and others I have with other people, as I feel very content to have it as it is within me.

        So if YOU experience the dawn chorus as an ode to joy to be alive, YOU are more than welcome to do so! Yet make it visible to others that this is your believe and not a fact, because then it may happen what happened and you feel dissected and attacked by others which happen to have different views and/or experiences or simply keep asking what makes you certain to claim such things...
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          Apr 18 2014: Lejan,
          I'm pretty sure you know this, and I am simply reinforcing the idea:>)

          Some folks believe that whatever s/he thinks, feels or believes is fact. Some folks have done a lot of exploration in their lives (as you and I have as well), and believe that what they have discovered is the one and only truth. If that is their underlying belief, any questioning may disrupt that belief and feel like an attack.

          That is why, unless I have verifiable evidence, I preface most comments with....I believe...my feeling....my thought.....my perception, perspective etc. is.....bla....bla....bla........

          Then sometimes, I'm accused of making it "all about me"!!! LOL

          If some folks want to be argumentative, s/he will do so, and whatever we say, might feel like "spoiling" their experience when we are not agreeing. That is one very interesting dynamic with communications:>)

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