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Ideological topics: Wealth Redistribution, Equality, Universal Health Care are quite contentious. Is there common ground for common good?

How do you obtain common ground in an ideological argument? What methods have proved fruitful in the past? Is there even a solution?

I am still working through Rousseau’s Origins of Inequality but, this statement stood out.

“Thus, as the most powerful or the most miserable considered their might or misery as a kind of right to the possessions of others, equivalent, in their opinion, to that of property, the destruction of equality was attended by the most terrible disorders. Usurpations by the rich, robbery by the poor, and the unbridled passions of both, suppressed the cries of natural compassion and the still feeble voice of justice, and filled men with avarice, ambition and vice.”

What methods do you use to sway the idealist who in reality means no harm yet causes harm with each keystroke?


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  • Feb 8 2014: Joe West.
    Hello, from the idealist.
    What methods will you use to sway me from my well meant keystrokes?

    Can anyone explain "Universal Single Payer Health Care"?

    I firmly believe that we Americans are paying 150 cents or
    more for each dollar's worth of Health Care services.

    Insurance is not Health Care services.
    Coverage is not Payment in Full for Health Care services.
    (Unless of course you are a member of congress, the
    administration, or the supreme court.)

    I spent years in the business of paying Health Claims.
    There is no way in hell that Insurance is a Good Buy.

    We Americans pay to our Government far more in Taxes
    than we receive back in benefits. And to saddle us all
    with Insurance Premiums and IRS penalties, is Insane.

    The Litmus Test. -- In the last 100 years in America
    Taxed-Payers have paid enough to the IRS for the
    US Government to provide all of the following needs.
    1. Unconditional Basic Income,
    2. Pure Water,
    3. Adequate Food,
    4. Effective Waste Management,
    5. Clothing,
    6. Housing, (not real estate)
    7. Healthcare, (not health insurance)
    8. Utilities.
    INSTEAD -- The US Government spent our needs on;
    1. Protecting us all with never ending Wars that kill and
    maim innocent men, women, and wee babes, including
    our sons and daughters,
    2. Providing us with Justice to keep Prisons overflowing,
    Justice denied to those who cannot pay.
    3. Allowing Banking Cartels to dip their beaks and rape
    our treasuries causing Depressions and Unemployment
    4. Spying and Surveillances of us all as if we were criminals.
    • Feb 9 2014: Universal, single-payer healthcare.

      Healthcare that is like the interstate highway system. Government provides it and all can use it.

      Some of it is funded via direct tax (vehicle registration and gasoline tax... or in the case of healthcare, taxes on employers or something akin to the Social Security tax).

      Some of it is funded via general revenue (income tax).

      You may even have some co-pays to discourage over usage.

      Most of the people in the world live under universal payer health care. Of course, that is a bit of an unfair statement since more than 2 billion of the planets 7 billion humans live in India and China and both have universal healthcare. So does much of Europe.
      • Feb 9 2014: Darrell, thank you for such a valid explanation.

        With Universal, single-payer healthcare, there could be reciprocity* between nations --
        *the relation or policy in commercial dealings between countries by which corresponding advantages or privileges are granted by each country to the citizens of the other.

        Perhaps our President and his followers were a bit misinformed about the workings of
        insurance vs healthcare.

        I want to chastise the Governors of States, and the Insurance Regulators for not being
        wise enough to understand that a raise in both State and Federal taxation would be a
        better idea than to load another layer of Corporate Profits onto the backs of sick people.

        The IRS penalty, for non-purchase of insurance, requires a steady income stream, which
        requires continuous employment. This is a fine idea. But where are the jobs?
        When the economy takes the next hit, and that is anticipated shortly, this house of cards
        will fall apart.

        The "Pot" that needs to be filled to pay for healthcare services should be located inside
        our US Treasury, and payments regulated by both State and Federal Laws. To allow
        any Corporate/Organization with a history as bad as the Insurance Industry has shown
        in the last 110 years is folly indeed. We elders of this once great nation know the horror
        stories of valid claims being denied by insurers and policies being full of exclusions and
        restrictions. The Insurance Industry have their own printing propaganda presses, and
        a history of using their insured's medical data to raise premiums to keep profits high.

        The proof is coming soon. But not soon enough.
    • Feb 9 2014: Hi Frank

      I have no intention of swaying you from your path, in fact I applaud it! Your key strokes are the 9th symphony to my ears.
      • Feb 9 2014: Joe, A story to thank you

        As a Boy Scout in a small community we took camping trips, and were allowed freedom to
        explore without restriction. We could and did get hurt from time to time. In today's world,
        the Scout Master would never have been permitted such supervisory behavior. But that
        was 65 years ago, and we were a different breed. Indestructible, as our hero Fathers were,
        who fought in WW2.

        Camped below Superstition Mountain, we decided to climb it. 5 or 6 of us climbing up a
        vertical face with the first couple of boys carrying the ropes. As we climbed, using finger
        and toe holds, the soft face would crumble. Holds were getting fewer to find. Being the
        last climber, I soon found little to grasp.

        Picture, my situation.
        No more finger and toe holds. Standing flat against the face. Looking downward.
        The face I stood against was a 40 yard long sky-slope with a projecting lip, and a 90 foot
        free-fall to be endured.

        I called up to the others, explained my situation, asking them to throw a rope down to me.
        It seemed an eternity had passed, but the rope came down and landed on me. I grabbed
        it with both hands. But since I had been holding on with stiff fingers, stuck into holes,
        my hands were unable to close around the rope. Oops.

        I began to slide downwards. Praying for a knot at the end of the rope. Scraping my shirt
        and then my flesh as I descended towards the lip. No knot.

        Like the Wiley Coyote I slid over the lip and enjoyed the best feeling in the world. Free-fall.

        90 feet later. I crushed a small mesquite bush, and landed on a hard pile of rocks.
        I moved out from under the deluge of rocks that followed me down, and lay back down.

        Boy Scouts are known for "Being Prepared", and this was my Troop's day to shine.
        They made a stretcher from cut branches, and carried me to safety.

        What if the boy above, holding the rope, had tied a knot in my end?
        He may have followed me down. Scary
        • Feb 10 2014: Good story! I could feel the tension. Funny how these childhood incidents shape our lives.

          In todays age the lawsuits would be flying fast and furious

          I for one am glad you found a soft mesquite on the way down and can join us here today!
          What was the outcome of the day, how did your parents take the news?
    • Feb 12 2014: Government confiscates wealth at gunpoint.
      Government sets prices for all medical procedures and enforces them at gunpoint.
      Government doles out payments.
      • Feb 12 2014: Bryan,
        You are more than right.

        I assume gunpoint is a metaphor to show how we must bow to government
        decisions that they make in our behalf.

        Seems we have little say about IRS penalties for our lack of purchasing
        insurance from those Corporate Insurance Crooks who can't seem to
        stop stealing from us.

        With today's several hundred Lobbyist's vying to pay bribes to each of
        the 535 members of congress, millionaires are created even before being
        elected to high office.

        A sad day for Americans who seem to forget that the Media is paid to sell
        Candidates to voters. Candidates who most all are pre-selected privately
        inside closed doors, by Republican and Democrat party leaders.

        Obama's just raised $60 to $80 million for November elections. Peglosi,
        only $30 million as she testified to on Jan 30th's John Daley TV show.

        I could continue, but you get the idea.
        I think Gerald Ford was the last good President. Before and After all Crooks.
        • Feb 12 2014: It's not really a metaphor. Refuse to pay taxes and see what happens. People with guns will eventually come for you if you persist in pushing the point. These are probably not bad people. They are probably quite good people who are doing their best to live up to a genuine sense of duty to their society and fellows, but they are still gun-carrying people who act at behest of government.

          All governments, ultimately, rest upon a foundation of violence. All government programs, ultimately, rest upon the use of violence. Don't believe it? Refuse to go along with any rule/law/regulation/whatever that government imposes. Instruments of violence will be used to impose the government's will.

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