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Pabitra Mukhopadhyay

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Mind exists outside of physical world - will you agree?

Mind exists outside of physical world and can influence the physical states of brain altering behaviour in a way not fully understood by cognitive sciences that tend to avoid the idea of existence of qualia. Will you agree to such a claim?

Is there any way one can argue 'scientifically' in favor of an individual (human) mind, a group mind or mind of living systems other than organisms?

If one cannot, Andrew Soloman's brilliant experience will be no more than an art.

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Closing Statement from Pabitra Mukhopadhyay

Sorry, it took me awhile to write a closing statement.
It had been a great debate and I thank all who contributed for and against the OP. Despite strong and forceful arguments against the idea, I conclude that there IS a strong possibility that mind does exist outside of physical world. I would clarify my position by defining 'Mind', 'existence' as widely as possible and 'physical world' as objectively as possible.
In passing I will mention that Carlos's assertion that brain functions do not fall within quantum scale just as a figure of measurements is not possibly correct. I shall also thank Brenden Maloney for pointing out the recent success of Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD, at the National Institute of Material Sciences in Tsukuba, Japan (and now at MIT) on quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' in brain neurons upholding Hammeroff-Penrose Orch OR hypothesis.
Mind, in its most social meaning is acquired from environment. It's functional manifestation in brain does not prove its residency there.
Unless otherwise convinced in future, this debate made me accept the OP as true, at least for now.

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    Jan 8 2014: If we knew how the mind works, we'd know how God works.

    Science cannot tell us anything about the mind because it is beyond the physical. It cannot be measured, tested or reset.
    One of the reasons this may be clear is that there is no bodily organ that can change, or repair itself. The brain seems to do that at times one section stops working and now there is another part of the brain that does, or tries to do the same thing.

    One thing not many may know is that the Ark and the Tabernacle are both detailed and accurate descriptions, or pictures, of the human mind, with its different levels and their uses.
    http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/G.deCharms_Tabernacle/index.htm

    No one can measure or detect what we think or love because these are spiritual activities. Only in so far these influence the brain can it be said 'there is brain activity' so he or she must be thinking, or feeling something.
    Science can tell us that we think, but not what we think. There is a reason for everything :)

    If this may help at all, this is a link to The Human Mind
    http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/TheHumanMind.pdf
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      Jan 8 2014: "Science can tell us that we think, but not what we think."

      This claim is not a scientific fact.
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        Jan 9 2014: Why not?

        They know what you're thinking when you cross the border?
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          Jan 9 2014: I'm not saying we have the technology. I'm saying the claim itself is a wild guess, not something derived from any theory or understanding of what science can and cannot do.
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        Jan 9 2014: What I'm saying is that whatever is spiritual, science is not able to detect or 'read'. Our mind and it's activities are spiritual. Our brain is just the receiver of that input.

        When science says we're dead, many come back with a detailed account of a spiritual Near Death Experience..
        To me that is a clear indication of us living on a higher level than the body.
        But each his own, of course.
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          Jan 10 2014: "When science says we're dead, many come back with a detailed account of a spiritual Near Death Experience."

          So they were near-dead?
          Science says that no such dreams can occur to a brain that's been reduced to ashes. It doesn't say one can't experience specific kinds of hallucinations as the brain is being deprived of oxygen. Of course, science defines death as something you don't come back from, so there are no testomonies of what it felt like to think without a functionning brain.

          I don't mind getting out of my box, on a personnal level. I can read and understand your comments and some of them make sense. But science doesn't care. Science, not me, says that our minds work like computers, are the result of interacting matter, and that there is no mind when there is no brain.
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        Jan 9 2014: Sorry Gerald, you have to get out of your box, or body :)

        --"I'm saying the claim itself is a wild guess, not something derived from any theory or understanding of what science can and cannot do. "--

        It so very much is! The physical and spiriual realms are not one and the same, and somehow connected and on the same level of matter.

        Please see science as only being capable to regard physical matter and its interactions.
        It is impossible to have a physical connection between something physical and something spiritual!!
        Just because there is no physical connection, this does not mean it does not exist.

        There is an unconnected interaction between these two realms or degrees of existence. These levels are called 'unconnected degrees' or discreet degrees. These 'connect' through correspondence. There are "degrees" of two types. "Continuous" degrees are like the degrees of heat measured by a thermometer and "discreet" degrees are like the rungs of a ladder.

        For example, love on the level of the spiritual world corresponds to heat on the level of the natural world. Wisdom in turn corresponds to light. All things of the spirit have a corresponding counterpart in nature.
        As regarding the body and mind interaction, these are details of that 'interaction.'
        http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/interaction_of_soul_and_body.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
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          Jan 9 2014: I think it is VERY possible to have connections between physical and spiritual Adriaan. People experience this ALL the time. I also respect that you have your own personal beliefs. However, just because you have your personal beliefs about something, does NOT mean something is "impossible".

          What kind of "correspondence" connects what you call "discreet degrees...like the rungs of a ladder"?
        • Jan 19 2014: Wow, what amount of speculations and fantasy. You lose touch whit reality man.
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        Jan 9 2014: Hi Colleen, I hope you get to see this..

        --"I think it is VERY possible to have connections between physical and spiritual Adriaan. People experience this ALL the time."--
        A 'connection' yes, but not a physical connection, like wires ot nerves. The same with saying you're close to someone. Your loves or/and interests are similar or the same. You would not express that closeness in feet or meters because it is on the spiritual, non-material level.

        When you see a head with a lightbulb over it, you know this is about getting an Idea, getting the picture. There is no literal light, it is an expression of something 'higher'.
        There are parables that use that 'system' of expressing a situation on a literal, natural level. While the reason fot the parable is a situation on the spiritual level. One level corresponds to, and so explains the other, non-material level.

        Because of the properties of water on the physical level, water corresponds to truth on the spititual level. Gold correspond to love, etc etc.
        How our lungs and heart relate and interact in our body corresponds, in every detail, how two parts of our mind interact and relate. Our digestive system corresponds with the process of 'digesting' ideas in our mind.

        I also respect the fact that you also have your own personal beliefs, as every human being does.
        Happy new year to you
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          Jan 10 2014: Hi Adriaan, and happy new year to you too!

          I clearly wrote, in comments on this thread, the connection I perceive is energy....not wires or nerves as you say. I'm sure you know that wires and nerves are simply carriers of energy.

          Love, in my perception, exists on all levels.....not just a spiritual level. So please do not tell me how I would, or would not experience love. My perception appears to be different than your perception.

          Ok....I now understand your use of the word "correspondence". You are saying "one level corresponds to, and so explains the other..."

          That is different than your other comments Adriaan, which say....
          "It is impossible to have a physical connection between something physical and something spiritual!!" "There is an unconnected interaction between these two realms"..."like the rungs of a ladder."

          I perceive ALL interactions as connected, so it makes no sense to me that there would be an "unconnected interaction". I don't know about YOUR ladder, but the ladder I use, is all one piece, constructed of interconnecting parts, and I believe that humans are interconnecting parts of the whole. So, your use of the word ladder, to demonstrate your argument, supports my argument.....thank you:>)

          I think you debunked your original statement, which states that interconnection is "Impossible".

          My belief, regarding this topic question, is that everything is energetically connected. It appears that when you start preaching your personal religious/spiritual beliefs, you often contradict yourself. My only point, in questioning your original statement, is to remind you that just because YOUR religious/spiritual beliefs say one thing, there is no reason to suggest that anything different is IMPOSSIBLE.
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        Jan 10 2014: Hi Colleen,

        --"I think you debunked your original statement, which states that interconnection is "Impossible"."--

        Taking words out of context to 'proof' a point, this is what makes discussions with you so difficult. Isn't this what religions do?
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          Jan 10 2014: I used your exact words in the context you used them Adriaan. Yes, I agree.,....this is what religions, and religious beliefs sometimes do.

          I suspect that what makes discussions with me difficult for you, is that I sometimes remind you of your contradictions.
    • Jan 9 2014: A hundred years ago, science couldn't tell us how the sun works either. Today, we teach it in high school (albeit with most of the mathematics glossed over).

      Give it time, we'll get there. The mind is taking a long time to figure out because its complex, not because its unknowable. Thoughts have just as much of a physical presence as something like a computer program--not a physical object per say, but a reaction inside a physical object--still has a presence just fine, though.
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        Jan 9 2014: But science will never be able to tell us exactly how each of us experiences the sun - in our own way - I think that's what Pabitra is addressing here.
        • Jan 10 2014: Nor does abstract ideas as "God".
        • Jan 10 2014: Why shouldn't it be able to?
          Just because we don't fully understand and haven't fully mapped out the brain before doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future.

          Besides, that has nothing to do with the question of whether it has a physical presence or not. We lack understanding and accurate models of plenty of things which are undeniably physical.
          Figuring out how you experience the sun is just a matter of a better understanding of how the brain is built and functions.

          I think the lack of a willingness to accept the mind and consciousness as part of the standard physical world is less to do with rational argument, and more because people like feeling special, and special doesn't seem half as magical when you can explain it.
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          Jan 10 2014: I agree Lachlan, that science cannot tell us exactly how each of us experiences something, and maybe that will, or will not happen....we don't really know what the future holds:>)

          However, science is learning more and more about mental/physical processes all the time, and science is discovering more about how the process works. To say that something will "never" happen seems unrealistic.

          I agree with Nadav, that figuring out how we experience something, is a matter of a better understanding. If we accept the information we have now as the "end result", we cannot delve any further into the question.

          That's very interesting Nadav, and it probably has some truth...."people like feeling special, and special doesn't seem half as magical when you can explain it."

          I suggest that it also doesn't seem half as controlling! That just makes me smile, after the number of times I've been told that if I do not accept a certain belief, I am going to hell!!!That looks like someone telling me that they are special because s/he "believes".....something which I supposedly do not know about!!! That is funny:>)
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        Jan 12 2014: You're right Colleen, just want to elaborate because I wasn't being precise with my wording.

        I believe that eventually science will explain HOW the process of perception works (in an objective, agreeable way) but that it still won't take away any of the mystery to do with qualia - the raw, subjective experiences that each of us have.

        There's a Buddhist quote - "the finger that points at the moon is not the moon".

        Science is based around objects and what we can agree on with consensus, but I believe that science will never explain my experience of the world because it's subjective - and subjectivity is not an object.

        I move through a passage of the objective world and create my own subjective reality based on my experiences in it.

        I am nothing more than a culmination of my experiences, thoughts, perceptions etc. and we each create our realities differently because we were born in different niches of the objective world, we each have unique brains etc.
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          Jan 21 2014: I agree with what you have written Lachlan...science may never explain our experience as individuals, because how we interpret anything is subjective....we create our own subjective reality....the culmination of thoughts, feelings, perceptions and experiences.

          I believe science is however, learning more and more about how the processes of the brain/mind work....as you insightfully say....and the information discovered with new scientific research, could contribute to changing some thoughts, feelings, perceptions and experiences IF/WHEN individuals are open to the possibilities? We see some folks who do not believe that which science has already proven, and they prefer to stay with their own subjective information as "truth". Science gives us information, which we can accept....or not!
    • Jan 9 2014: "...know how God works". Which one?
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        Jan 9 2014: Whatever name we give to the higher power we believe in. He couldn't care less what you call Him.
        • Jan 10 2014: "power" like what? where it is used? "higher" comparing to what? "him" male? where is "her"? do "they" multiply? He also can "care"? Does he have a brain?
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        Jan 10 2014: If you'd really like to know..

        Power like what?
        Power of infinite Divine Love and Divine Wisdom.

        where it is used?
        Everywhere in the spiritual and natural worlds or realms.

        "higher" comparing to what?
        Compared to the spiritual and natural worlds or realms.

        "him" male? where is "her"?
        This higher power created both and is above gender. 'He' sounds a lot better than 'It' You want to say 'she' go right ahead. For Christianity, because God came down in the form of a man, He is normally addressed as a male. Similar question, is the sun heat or light?

        Do "they" multiply?
        No, He does not

        He also can "care"?
        Yes Love cares, He created us to love not Himself but others outside of Himself

        Does he have a brain?
        At the time Jesus was born He had a brain. Before and after His resurrection His brain was, and became, spiritual.
        • Jan 10 2014: Do you know how to use scientific method?
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          Jan 10 2014: Adriaan,
          The information you provide is not "to know" except to you and those who believe as you do. These are YOUR personal ideas of what you think you "know".

          The topic question is...
          "Mind exists outside of physical world - will you agree?"
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        Jan 10 2014: --"Do you know how to use scientific method?"--

        That does not work in the spiritual realm. To maintain our human spiritual freedom, freewill, nothing spiritual can be proved scientifically.

        Could a partner scientifically measure your love for her/him?
        • Jan 10 2014: If 1) asking a question 2) make an hypotesis 3) set up an experiment 3) collect data and 4) make conclusion 5) repeat if necessary
          Does not work in "that" world
          then
          how you came up with conclusion that God exists if no:
          1) Asking if god exists 2) maybe bible has answer 3) read bible 4) make conclusion that God exists. 5) Continue reading
          Can you share your, non scientific way, to find out if god exists please?

          I can measure love by counting time one pays attention to another by carring his/her needs. How I do this in case of God love?
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          Jan 10 2014: Adriaan,
          That is exactly how and why people often remain "attached" to a religious belief...by believing that "nothing spiritual can be proved scientifically". That leaves it pretty open for religious leaders to tell people whatever they choose (which has been done), and people believe.

          It is not freedom, in my perception, to believe something that somebody directs one to believe regardless of any other information that may be available.

          In my humble perception, experience and practice, asking questions, exploring concepts or ideas and collecting data, is both scientific and spiritual. To exclude one or the other is limiting.

          How to measure love? There are lots of tangible measures with love...how one is treated... respected....etc. etc. etc.
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        Jan 10 2014: Hi Dorian
        --"Can you share your, non scientific way, to find out if god exists please?"--
        Your question sounds stuck in the scientific way. We cannot "find out" it God exists. As human beings we are, and must be, in 100% freedom to love somebody including God. Any proving or testing takes that freedom away.
        I follow, what I see as Revelation, because it makes total sense to me. Others follow theirs, if any.

        So part of the original question exists here too. If we could proof a disconnection between mind and brain, your freedom would be taken away to not believe that.
        • Jan 11 2014: You mean I dont want to imagine your imaginary world?
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          Jan 11 2014: Adriaan,
          I wholeheartedly agree....100% freedom to love is important for humans.

          Having additional information by testing, questioning, collecting data, proof, exploring, evaluating, etc., DOES NOT take away one's freedom to love who s/he chooses. Proving a disconnection between mind and brain DOES NOT in any way take away the freedom to believe whatever we want.

          It seems like you contradict yourself again, because in a previous statement, you write...
          "It is impossible to have a physical connection between something physical and something spiritual!!

          You apparently believe that physical and spiritual are not connected, and you still believe what you choose to believe in other regards. Having more information DOES NOT deprive a person of freedom to believe what s/he chooses. It simply provides information to make more informed choices.
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        Jan 11 2014: Dorian you are being silly. When you say:
        --"You mean I dont want to imagine your imaginary world?"--
        That wording, to me, means NO you don't want to.

        Colleen,
        Think about this for just a second or two.
        --"Having additional information by testing, questioning, collecting data, proof, exploring, evaluating, etc., DOES NOT take away one's freedom to love who s/he chooses."--
        In case I could show you proof of the existence of God, that would not take away your freedom to not believe in a God??

        Same here (talk about contradicting!)
        --"Proving a disconnection between mind and brain DOES NOT in any way take away the freedom to believe whatever we want."--

        Remember you said:
        --"The body is the carrier of energy, which fuels the consciousness, brain, mind, physical body, mental capabilities, activities (both internal and external), and my ability, as a multi sensory, multi dimensional, multi faceted human, to think, feel, reason, intuit, act, and make informed choices/decisions while assimilating all information from many sources:>) "--

        To me that means you believe our mind, body and brain, are one, there is no disconnection. If a disconnection could be proven, you'd have to give up that very belief.

        --"You apparently believe that physical and spiritual are not connected, and you still believe what you choose to believe in other regards."--
        Vague statements don't do very much. If you have to, reading something twice may help, which is based on my humble perception..

        --"Having more information DOES NOT deprive a person of freedom to believe what s/he chooses."--
        Agree 100% Colleen !! This, however, is not about MORE information, it is about information that shows a disconnect between the brain and the mind, between something material and something non-material. That information/proof would take your freedom away to believe your brain and your mind are one and the same.
        Unless you change your mind of course, then you could even believe in a God.
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          Jan 12 2014: Adriaan,
          I have been very clear. I believe the mind, body and brain (part of the body) are all interconnected, and of course I am not insisting that you believe the same thing. I respect YOUR choices for YOU.

          I agree Adriaan....vague statements don't do very much.....nor do contradicting statements:>)

          Having more information DOES NOT deprive a person of freedom to believe what s/he chooses to believe, and I'm tired of your insistence that everyone should believe in what YOU believe in! Now how about getting back to the topic question rather than trying to convince us that you and your beliefs are the one and only "right" beliefs!

          The topic question is..."Mind exists outside of physical world - will you agree?"
        • Jan 12 2014: Only "silly" people dare to question established views.
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        Jan 13 2014: "Only "silly" people dare to question established views."

        You are so right, for millions of years people believed in a spiritual realm. Until science came along and changed those established ideas.

        Science is all about, and limited to, matter, which does not, and should not be used as proof there is nothing byond matter.

        If you w(c)ould except a scientific indication, please read books about NDE's. These are experienced by millions of very, very different people all over the world. With 'scientific' I mean the detailed research that has discovered how very similar all those experiences are.
        The fast majority of those experiencing them afterwards accept the spiritual realm as a reality. Of course there are always a few exceptions, as you can see in this discussion..
        • Jan 14 2014: Religion "Love is God".
          "Science": "Love is care of someone else, is touch, is enjoy seeing, is smell...".

          Result: "I love a girl" - translated:
          Religion: "I God a girl".
          "Science": "I care a girl, touch, enjoy seeing, enjoy smelling her."

          Or if I have an imaginary world in where exists: "Baramsalaba, Foo, Duommamma". And you would ask me what "Baramsalaba" is? I may answer "Baramsalaba is Foo". And you ask what is "Foo"? and I tell you "Foo is Duommamma and also Duommamma is Baramsalaba" - we will run in circles forever. Until I don't point to something familiar to you and say "Baramsalaba" is a star in my world, just like sun in solar system.

          So "spiritual realm, love, God" may really exist - however it appears that you are not able to compile a clear definition/explanation of what it is.

          Also - if there are 2 separated worlds and there is no "bridge" between them - how you know about it?
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        Jan 15 2014: --"So "spiritual realm, love, God" may really exist - however it appears that you are not able to compile a clear definition/explanation of what it is."--
        I cannot show you on a screen what God or what love is. I can however explain that we have been created in God's image and likeness.

        God is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom. Those two combined create Life or Use.
        We have a will (to receive that love) and an understanding (to receive that wisdom). When we have a balanced will and understanding and put those to good use, we have a good life.

        God is above gender, as He created both. Just like the sun is not heat or light, but both.
        Men and women both have a will and an understanding, but the male uses his understanding first, and the female uses her will first. That's why they are so different. That's also why it is often thought that male and female are opposites. While they are really supplementing each other.
        This is an article on the subject
        http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/studies/Origin_of_Masc-Fem.pdf

        --"Also - if there are 2 separated worlds and there is no "bridge" between them - how you know about it?"--
        How would you connect a material world with a non-material world? How can you connect a shovel and its use?
        You have learned what shovels do, but we cannot put a detector on it which then would 'say:' "shovel" :)
        You can't see, by looking at someone, what they're good at or love to do, unless they show or tell you. Many people can be doing the same action, but each has their own reason(s) for doing it and they can be quite opposite.

        All of that whole situation has a reason for being that way. To guaranty our freedom to decide what we want and so shape our character. Make ourselves the person we like to be.
        This little book deals with human issues and just about any questions that may come up about God.

        Best wishes Dorian
        http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/DLW.pdf
        • Jan 15 2014: Language appear to be just a tool just like a screwdriver. You can misuse and hurt yourself/others.

          You can use screwdriver to scratch your ear (or someone else's). Sound may disappear and you may take it as normal because "all humans did the same before".

          You also can use language to "scratch" you mind as well. Hard to stop you - cause is your own tool - your own body/mind.

          "shovel and its use" - using it appears to connect you directly. You even don't need the word "shovel". Put your hand on it - start to use - connection appears. I cannot teach you how to use a shovel is you have no idea what it looks like. The same appear to be true about words you use and don't want to define.

          "we cannot put a detector on it which then would 'say:' "shovel"" - those who keep their nose in bible only are not aware of existence of micro-controllers that can accomplish just that.

          As long as you use in your research words only - it remains philosophy - thinking/speaking, thinking/speaking, thinking/speaking...

          "God is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom. Those two combined create Life or Use."
          "Divine Love + Divine Wisdom = Life = Use.

          "God is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom":
          God = Divine Love + Divine Wisdom.

          thus:
          God = Life = Use.

          Now I got it: "god" is synonym to "life" (sure if you are not going to "twist" now the word "life").
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          Jan 15 2014: WHAT???
          "the male uses his understanding first, and the female uses her will first"???

          Adriaan.....where the heck did you get THAT???

          A shovel and it's use are VERY connected......IF......one sees the connection! If one does not know how to use the shovel, then you're right.....there is no connection FOR THAT PERSON WHO DOES NOT MAKE THE CONNECTION!

          You are trying to promote your personal religious teachings again Adriaan!

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