TED Conversations

This conversation is closed.

Big bang is out!,

Lets look at the big bang from a distance. Outer space!, if you were to explode a large planet or sun, what would the pieces look like? Sharp, jagged pieces of rocks and debris, right??? The planets in our solor system are round and not sharp or jagged. Why? God!! He is the intelligence that magnificantly designed our place of existance. Imagine living on a sharp, jagged rock, you would fall off every edge that you walked over to. Water would run off the edges etc.... I have blown up stuff as a kid and never saw a piece of material perfectly round after detonation. Agree? God, jesus and all we have been taught as a child exsist. I believed as a child in Santa, the Easter bunny, tooth fairy but learned that my parents were all of them. Why is it that so many people still believe in god and visit Rome every year and many religous sites if they did not believe in a supreme being? Life after death....sounds crazy I know, but this cant be the only stop before the end. Why go through life to learn, live, suffer and die just to be eaten by worms and be forgotton unless, " there is more to it!!" Please comment.


Closing Statement from Dave McManus

Well, now that all the college educated scientists put their opinions in, I will say this. Yes, there is science behind every origin or birth of a planet, person, animal or what have you, but behind science, there is god. God allowed the science to take place to start the b.b or any other birth of a gallaxy, person, star, planet etc....but when god meets each of you down the road, you better tell him that you were always believing in him, just trying to figure out how he did it.. He may laugh and he may push the down button, but god is the real scientist that has figured it all out. You college people that have spent years exhausting theories, may never know the real answer when it has been in front of your noses all along!! ;-)

Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.

  • Nov 7 2013: There is an interesting blog, from where I copied the following:

    --"1) Science does not know what was going on just before the Big Bang explosion. The Laws of physics (as we know them) simply break down in the essential singularity—out of which the entire universe was generated.

    2) Science does not really know what is going on at the quantum level. The mathematics work fine but finding a connection between quantum weirdness (uncertainty) and the classical world of macroscopic measurement still eludes scientists.

    3) Scientists embrace the idea that the universe is unified yet they are unable to unify the two pillars of modern physics—General Relativity Theory and Quantum Theory.

    4) In spite of Hawking’s claim that the law of gravity explains the spontaneous creation of the universe out of nothing, scientists really don’t have a handle on gravitational order or the thermodynamics of gravitating systems to grow structure spontaneously. It seems that somehow an explosive force overcame the unimaginable force of gravity in the singularity, but after that, the two forces became wedded to each other just enough to create the all the coherent structures and rational order of the universe."--

    The Big Bang had a spiritual origin, just as every single thing we see come about, this very moment, originates from a plan or method that was 'created' by a mental/spiritual concept.

    Basically God extended His Infinite love and wisdom 'away from Himself.' This way He created a spiritual world. This spiritual world made it possible for God to extent His love and wisdom to an even more external (away from Himself) level and so create a finite/physical world.
    In our world we have a 'representation' of the Divine which we call the sun. From that sun we get light and heat, which are the physical expressions of the spiritual love and wisdom.

    Every motion and thought is based on using this love and wisdom. Love in our will and wisdom in our understanding. Also relates to male/female
    • thumb
      Nov 8 2013: Mr. Adriaan,

      Speaking Geometrically if reality were to be represented by a circle Science have found out let's say an octagon. Science doesn't have all the answers, the practicality,use & usefulness of Theories is their ability to make predictions that mankind can apply,leverage upon, but not the dogmatic "truth"(Science is falsifiable,Religion is not) .
      That said, (Science has boundaries) does not immediately and by default makes the ID hypothesis "The Answer". Creationism source is supernatural revelation;Science source is the Scientific Method (not perfect, but the best tool available). To place god at the boundary of Science (god of the gaps) it's a time ticker, for it will be a matter of time until the gaps are filled, leaving less & less "places" for the god hypothesis go to. The mystery, the uncertainty of not knowing is , to me the appeal of Science.
      Is the BBT "the TRUTH" about the origins of our Universe? Well , is as of this very red hot second is the best consensus of scientists, and the evidence points that is (for now) the best answer to fit observable data. It's the Octagon , not the Circle.
      Many scientists are religious (and many are not!) , even in the observatory or Lab scientist disagree more or less as we do here in TED.The difference is that both religious or not scientists agree on the "Method" or approach to learn about the Universe.This approach is one of using observations to test theories. And when a theory has been tested as much as the BBT, with each test reconfirming its validity, then we believe that it is likely true -- at least more true than those theories which have failed the observational tests..
      Religion is cool with Science until it collides with Darwin or BBT, that make the Universe impersonal and purposeless, or Earth and Humanity eccentric in the great scheme of things-but that is another debate-.

      • Nov 9 2013: Hi Carlos, thanks for your response. I am a firm believer that science and my religion can be unified, over time. The difference between the two is that science is all about this world, my religion is all about the next, or spiritual, world.
        I'd like to think that science is here to make life more comfortable and efficient. My religion is here to make this life more loving and the transition to the next more manageable.

        Science can built us the best house possible, but only love can make it a home.

        What I should explain is that with "my religion" I mean the Swedenborgian religion. I fully support it and, kind of, know what it is all about. If I did not think it was the best (for me), I'd be in the other one that I would regard as the best. This is also called The Second Coming, and I think, for good reasons.
        There is even this connection in Hawaii:

        Since I believe religion is important, I also believe that science is important. After all they are from the same Source and Swedenborg was a famous scientist before his spiritual eyes were opened. Science was always important to him.

        Thanks again for your response
        • thumb
          Nov 11 2013: Seems like there is a lack of evidence or a sound reason to believe in spiritual worlds.

          not sure if you are equating love with supernaturalism.

          no reason why love needs magic to exist.

          we are not even the only social mammals to show affection or grieve.
      • Nov 10 2013: Carlos

        Liked what you said :(Science is falsifiable,Religion is not)
        "To place god at the boundary of Science (god of the gaps) it's a time ticker, for it will be a matter of time until the gaps are filled, leaving less & less "places" for the god hypothesis go to".

        At that time the hypothesis of God will finally become recognized and understood God will be recognized by science being ... science will recognize the circle rather than continue its approximation with a multifaceted polygon closely approximating the circle. As you sort of said it's a time ticker and considering that (Science is falsifiable,Religion is not) which do you think will be falsified?

        I also like how you said "Then we believe that it is likely true -- "

        Knowing the truth involves knowing the truth... wether it is likely true or not, hardly matters, especially when one knows the truth. Notice that the proof of the claim does not change the validity of the claim. what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong.

        I think science is on the path of disbelief till the last moment and even then doubt a bit more before believing
        while religion is on the path of belief until proof otherwise and even then question the disbelief a bit more.
    • thumb
      Nov 10 2013: The first four points you take from the blog are well accepted, I believe, by scientists. It is common, though, that those not truly well-versed in science believe that scientists claim to more comprehensive understandings than they have or who believe that science (often described as "new") has established things that it has not.

      Your claim that you present after those four points does not necessarily follow, though, of course, many people of faith share your belief in it.
      • Nov 11 2013: Thanks Fritzie, I appreciate what you wrote.
        What I meant to express with the somewhat short point
        "The Big Bang had a spiritual origin, just as every single thing we see come about, this very moment, originates from a plan or method that was 'created' by a mental/spiritual concept."

        is that IMO the creation of the universe had a spiritual origin, just as any painting created by a painter, was created by that painter's love for painting and his wisdom of how to paint. That painting was not created by his hands, or by any of his neurons or any of his brain cells.

        I'm not saying there was no brain activity. There obviously was brain activity, but that is, I think, how the mind 'communicates with the body.
        • thumb
          Nov 11 2013: I understood that that was the meaning of your claim.
        • thumb
          Nov 11 2013: That's a big claim with no supporting evidence.

          a painting is a very different category to a universe

          your claim is similar to saying gods cause lightening and disease and earthquakes and eclipses etc
      • Nov 11 2013: Hi Obey, and you know you're save. As I've said before, it is not possible to prove anything spiritual on the natural level. No one will be forced to believe anything they'd rather not.

        "a painting is a very different category to a universe"
        It obviously is, so is the difference between infinite and finite. As an image and likeness of God we can, on our level, create things from matter already here.

        God did indeed create the universe and the laws of nature in that universe. Everything was "good, very good" after creation. Until humans created hell, and hell expresses itself in the bad effects of nature and also in human behaviour. All the good things are expressions of heaven, all the bad stuff is an expression of hell. IOW every situation here is the effect of a spiritual cause. We can save, or kill someone with water, fire, etc..
        That was my claim, and I'm sticking to it :)
        • Nov 11 2013: Adriaan,

          Would like to share an idea that helped me to understand a bit better something related to heaven and hell. The saved see the truth of the matter an enjoy the good life... the deceived don't see the truth of the matter nor enjoy the good life...

          I now consider that everyone goes to a place where only good happens and everyone does good ... some love and enjoy it; then some hate and detest it. We are given a time to choose to love or to hate... well its more like we are given a time to choose what to Love... some choose love and love Love or Love love and some choose hate and hate Love or Love hate... one is win-win where one always win (even when one may seem to lose one wins), the other is win-lose where one always loses (even when one may seem to win one loses).

          I also believe we are here to make this place a better place and its about time each did what each ought to do once and for all.
        • thumb
          Nov 11 2013: No, you believe your concept of god created the universe and associated dogmas.

          You can assert you have the truth, but you are yet to provide compelling evidence as to the validity of your claims, or even to make your claims slightly more convincing than thousands and millions of contradictory claims reliant on personal revelations, religious feelings, intuition etc.

          If you started with "I believe" and ended with compelling evidence for why you believe we might be closer to being on the same page.
        • Nov 12 2013: Obey,

          Providing compelling evidence as to the validity of the claims I assert will hardly change the validity of the claims. Likewise making my claims slightly more convincing will hardly change the validity of the claims. The validity of the claims depends on what is claimed, what happens to be, and the congruence that exists between the two.

          I am not sure what you said 'no'... are you disagreeing with the notion that "we are here to make this place a better place and its about time each did what each ought to do once and for all."
      • Nov 11 2013: Hi Esteban, yes, I agree with you, if you're saying that "we are given a time [here] to choose what to Love" because that's indeed what free choice is all about.

        So after death we 'go' where our love is. If we have come to love ourself and so dominate, control and manipulate others, then we go to a 'place' where that is considered 'good' based on 'truth'. While, of course that is based on evil and falsity.

        You may like this book. It starts of with the processes we go through right after death. No one punishes us, except us. No one tells us where to go, except us.

        "we are here to make this place a better place" Exactly!!
        • Nov 11 2013: Adriaan,

          Actually what I am saying is that after death we 'go' to one place...
          ... the good see it as good
          ... the bad see it as bad

          Just imagine the irony ... for the deceived : being in a wonderful place without being able to enjoy it! or being in a wonderful place and just hating it! yikes!

          It would be akin to the richest man in the world who can't get access to enjoy those riches... sure they walk well dressed and in perfect health while feeling in rags and without any health ... they give their riches to other without any satisfaction in such an act, in fact they feel constantly cheated in such acts.
          They see themselves as a homeless vagabond without any values, nor friends, nor anything to feel good or be joyful... though they possess everything, nothing fills them and they are unable to appreciate its wonder. Yea a accepting a single thought on their part could change it all, still they refuse such a thought every time .

          I like to believe that we die, as we live... in other words what we do now kind of determines what we will choose to do then... What makes some believe that if given a different opportunity they will choose differently than they choose now? Of course we can always choose to change the point is what make us think that we will choose to change later if we refuse to change now? especially if each act reinforces that kind of action in the future? Each step, each thought, each feeling advances us in a particular direction, question is where are we heading with this next step we take?
        • Nov 12 2013: thanks for the book reference...
      • Nov 12 2013: Esteban, I'd like to think this physical world exists so we can learn what to love, by the minute. So that when we die, we live in the condition that we did chose here.

        To me that makes sense when seeing God as a God of love. He's giving us the best possible eternity we want. I would not like being in the same 'place' with those that love evil. That's what the present situation is, that's why we keep our doors locked and download updates.

        And then you seem to say the same thing
        "in other words what we do now kind of determines what we will choose to do then..."
        • Nov 12 2013: Adriaan,

          I sense that there is a critical distinction that was sort of left out. That place will be a place where only good things can be done, shared, experienced. The good guys will freely chose to do good... the bad buys will be forced to do good... so you see everyone will behave nice, internally some will experience joy and love while the others will be unable to experience these emotions. The present situation is different...
    • thumb
      Nov 11 2013: From my perspective you have identified a gap in our knowledge or understanding and injected spiritual magic.

      any evidence for your god hypothesis or is this based on ignorance or some authority and there personal revelation like so many other mutually exclusive supernatural explanations.
    • thumb
      Nov 13 2013: To summarise , we haven't fight everything out and you can use gods to fill in the gaps

Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.