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Carlos Marquez

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How can God exist beyond space and time?

I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....
Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.
Does God pops in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?
Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.
Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc, Please and thank you.
Keep the mental contortions civil & courteous, even artful which is always cool. Let's learn from each other!

"You're everywhere and no where, baby
That's where you're at"
Hi Ho Silver Lining

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Closing Statement from Carlos Marquez

The operational word in my question was "how" could god or anything exists beyond space and time?, And the core answer after the often heated exchanges is that some folks believe such a fantastic particular possible yet unable to render a demonstrable explanation -why?- because it is impossible.
The incredible thing is that folks believe dogmas as such without questioning. Is similar to lets say slavery or interracial marriage or the prohibition, many in power used (still do ) the Bible to back up such views and today-thanks in a big part by Secular Humanism- are not active policies in our country. Many a Christian believed that all above mentioned stances were correct just as god exist beyond space and time.

I think that as a whole mankind is evolving away from dogmas into new horizons, faith based or divinely revealed knowledge will take a backseat to reason based knowledge. And for that process there is a demonstrable "How".

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    Aug 2 2013: The difficulty in answering your question begins with preconceived misconceptions concerning what God is. The Catholic church separated God from science after its attack on Galileo. People today are trying to explain God as something apart from reality when in fact it is not. God is the foundation upon which all reality is based, which makes everything a part of God and God a part of everything.

    Every hydrogen atom in the universe has the same structure. The structure allows for all atoms of the periodic table to form by reason of fusion, and the resulting atoms all have the same basic structure supporting them. The structure is universal. No one knows how or why this is so. Furthermore, what we call structure is supported by quantum fields, which have no structure per se. They fill the universe, which supports the scripture you cite, but its explanation in modern times is clouded in superstitious myths and rhetorical dogma so that it cannot be viewed from the perspective of quantum physics, when in fact, that's what it boils down to.

    To say that ancient cultures didn't know this is to assume that knowledge can only be gained through education. I had a spiritual experience when I was nine that explained the above, long before I received any instruction on quantum physics. I have reasons to believe that ancient cultures had similar experiences, but their ideas have been corrupted by politics and the quest for power and control.

    I have researched religion to quite a degree and have found that what is being taught in church's today has little resemblance to what it started out as. I wrote a book on the subject.
    http://scienceandreligionconverging.com
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      Aug 3 2013: Roy,
      Welcome aboard,
      You categorically state: "People today are trying to explain God as something apart from reality when in fact it is not. God is the foundation upon which all reality is based, which makes everything a part of God and God a part of everything" -How do you know that and which God?

      I agree with the symmetries in nature irrespective of geographical / astronomical position, chemical history, temperature, and so on. The success of chemistry as a discipline means that there's something to that basic tenet.

      Roy, are you suggesting that let's say the ancient Babylonians "knew" about QFT, QM? ( please do correct me if I read wrong) And you also state that as a child (9 y/o) you had a spiritual revelation of sorts that instructed you in knowledge similar or equal to that of ancient cultures that were also familiar with QFT/QM., Did I understand you correctly?

      The mechanism of religion(s) as a tribal survival tool in diverse cultures worldwide is unquestionable. It even helped to propel science. And today is used by many as a instrument to parse & implement "Pax Religiosa" with a short fuse for intolerance. Add to that unquestionable beliefs and practices and you won't get "brotherly love" to have a large radius. That is not to say that religious groups have indeed helped many folks worldwide with various forms of assistance.
      To answer your post bellow there are theories for human thought take for example the "Gestalt psychology" as a theory of mind & brain. Indeed Science & religion are not offering the same knowledge and for sure not by the same means.
      Now I agree with you that a course in ethics should be taught as part of any Physics (any science) curriculum , take for example Roy the "X ray laser" issue back with Pres. Reagan ( but now rescued as a measuring device) also think about Dr. Oppenheimer and General Leslie Groves as they" locked horns" regarding the flow of information-you get my meaning-

      Thanks Roy
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          Aug 4 2013: Alexander,

          Thanks,

          Also notice that folks understanding of such a a subject is directly proportional to the difference between their cultural attachment of their frame of reference and inversely proportional to their ability to care care for mankind measured in actions per life-cycle.

          No more coffee for me.

          "All you need is love & gravity"cm


          Thanks Alexander
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        Aug 3 2013: Which God? There is only one God upon which reality is based. It has many names and a host of misconceptions to go with it. Religion speaks of it but provides little to understand it. Only through spiritual experience can one go beyond the misconceptions. Science is now providing us with information that deals with universal symmetry.

        Did the ancients know of QFT,QM? Maybe not as we do but I give the story of Moses in Pharaoh's court as an example; the ancient world saw things in right brain associations. The serpent was chosen as a symbol representing deity because of its attributes. Deity was an association of the forces of nature personified. In the story, Moses throws down his staff as a symbol of his power and it turns into a serpent representing a monotheistic God. Pharaoh's magicians all do the same with their staffs. The many serpents of Egypt's gods are all swallowed up in Moses singular serpent. What does the story mean? If you know what the serpent meant to these people, then the story portrays the unified field theory of physics from a right brain perspective, a truth that was only discovered by science in the last couple hundred years.

        Did I experience a similar revelation? I most certainly did. I knew that everything in nature was reducible to a common denominator when I was in the third grade. It would be eleven years before I was able to confirm what I had experienced in a spiritual revelation.

        Does religion lead us to the truth? Current religions are a far cry from the truth. They warn of deception, of moral degradation, of selfishness and greed, and yet we often find them caught up in those very issues. The seven energy chakras of Eastern philosophy are divided into lower and upper subconscious, Christ being the highest level achievable. And yet we find most people in the lower levels of self, sex, and power. The higher levels are still out of reach and I hear little about them in church.
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          Aug 4 2013: Roy,
          "There is only one God upon which reality is based" out of 37,000 which one and once named which denomination? And I don't follow "spiritual experience" and I also respect your beliefs.

          I remember(way back when) the symbology of the serpent -Caduceus,Gk.-Tammuz Ancient Mesopotamian culture -Apophis was "the serpent of darkness,-Egypt etc so one role connected serpents to the heavens by having them represent deity, creative powers, and healing. The other linked them with the underworld and associated them with evil, harm, and destructive influences.So what we get? worship on one hand and abhorrence on the other.

          But QM, QFT from the R/side of the brain? Is a long stretch for me.

          I mean why the divine did not given more practical things like how to treat Parasitic disease -- from roundworm and tapeworm infection to schistosomiasis, strongyloides, and malaria -- were rampant among the ancient Egyptians (who compiled their own catalogues of parasitic worms). Sand pneumoconiosis, which is caused by the repeated inhalation of sand, was common, as was tuberculosis. Signs of polio have been found, as have indications of plague and fairly good evidence of smallpox. Who needed Quantum Physics, when other practical larger issues were at hand?-just a thought.

          I do not agree with the Eastern philosophy of chakra energies, but I respect your choice.Interesting how you combines eastern religion with Christianity.

          Thanks
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        Aug 4 2013: 37,000 denominations means that they can't agree among themselves. Definitely a problem.

        I don't follow "spiritual experience". Without spiritual experience, I don't know how anyone can understand religion at all. Religion isn't about believing in God. It is about coming to understand what God is. It is only through spiritual experience that I was able to weed out fact from fiction. Spiritual experience aligns the thought processes with the creative forces of nature so that there is harmony. Once there is harmony, then understanding can take place.

        Creation and destruction are not from separate sources. Good, bad, or indifferent, it all comes from the same source. So your analogy of the serpent being equated with both creation and evil is a common theme in ancient religions. The reason for the choice of the symbol is many-fold. The serpent has a double phallus and forked tongue, symbol of duality. It sheds its skin every year, symbol of regeneration. It crawls on its belly, symbol of humility. Yet it is very agile, symbol of resourcefulness. Snakes are beneficial to ecology, yet some are deadly, symbol of the forces of nature, which are necessary for life, but can become deadly. It is shown swallowing its tail, symbol of cyclic nature.

        What did the ancient cultures know? The great pyramid of Egypt is composed of 2 million stones ranging from 2-5 tons each. It was supposedly built in 20 years. Do the math; there are only 10.5 million minutes in 20 years. They would have had to lay the stones in place at the rate of 288 per day. They obviously knew something we don't. Unless of course you believe in the ancient alien theory.

        I don't have an answer for the diseases that they suffered. It certainly is a quandary in need of an explanation. A very good thought, not one to be dismissed.

        I have found many correlations between Eastern philosophy and the Judeo-Christian tradition. It explains much of what the priests can't seem to explain.
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      Aug 3 2013: Roy,
      I'll add your book to my reading stack.

      Thanks

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