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Carlos Marquez

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How can God exist beyond space and time?

I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....
Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.
Does God pops in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?
Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.
Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc, Please and thank you.
Keep the mental contortions civil & courteous, even artful which is always cool. Let's learn from each other!

"You're everywhere and no where, baby
That's where you're at"
Hi Ho Silver Lining


Closing Statement from Carlos Marquez

The operational word in my question was "how" could god or anything exists beyond space and time?, And the core answer after the often heated exchanges is that some folks believe such a fantastic particular possible yet unable to render a demonstrable explanation -why?- because it is impossible.
The incredible thing is that folks believe dogmas as such without questioning. Is similar to lets say slavery or interracial marriage or the prohibition, many in power used (still do ) the Bible to back up such views and today-thanks in a big part by Secular Humanism- are not active policies in our country. Many a Christian believed that all above mentioned stances were correct just as god exist beyond space and time.

I think that as a whole mankind is evolving away from dogmas into new horizons, faith based or divinely revealed knowledge will take a backseat to reason based knowledge. And for that process there is a demonstrable "How".

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    Jul 30 2013: I take a fairly simple approach to this question. What does space and time exist inside of?

    We know space and time exists. If everything must exist inside of space and time... then that would mean that space and time would have to exist inside itself in order to exist, but that doesn't make any sense. Therefore there must be some property which allows space and time to exist without it having to exist inside something else.

    Objects within space and time are spatial and temporal objects, and therefore require the spatial and temporal dimensions, via space and time, to exist. SpaceTime itself cannot be a spatial or temporal object, for it would require itself to exist before it could exist... within itself. Since spaceTime doesn't need to be a spatial or temporal object, then I imagine it isn't too far of a stretch to say that there are other objects that are not spatial or temporal. Some of these non spatial or temporal objects may very well be used to generate space and time itself, like some trans-dimensional machine, but thats an idea for a later date.

    So not only could God exist beyond spaceTime, many many other things could as well.

    That's my opinion anyway, not scientifically proven fact by any means , but I think it holds up pretty well.
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      Jul 30 2013: Sterling,
      Spacetime is "all else" at any given point in the known universe is "the" container.It does not require a "place to exist , it is "the" place itself." objects that are not spatial or temporal" is not logical since "to be" in any place(in this universe or other) any object would have to exist in a place and a time(otherwise there will be no object to exist).
      We can postulate the existence of a place that is beyond our known space & time but so far no-one has come up with the goods.

      Interesting post Sterling!
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          Jul 30 2013: Some,
          No contradiction-Even those particles that pop in and out existence posted in our space- time continuum.

          Is Space, there is no-nothing, and things do exists in spacetime.

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        Jul 31 2013: Carlos,
        Do you think that existence depends solely on having a place and a time assigned to something, allowing it to exist? If yes, then why?
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          Jul 31 2013: Sterling,
          Something or anything that exists in this -our universe- exists(or existed) in objective spacetime. Short answer-Yes-
          I don't follow Plato's form theory,
          I think about it in this terms: Let's say I have a glass jar and inside of it is the "perfect" medication that cures cancer. You and I will see that is empty(unfortunately).

          So,we may imagine a medication that indeed could cure such a disease,but in the realm of the imaginary or the ideas -well is useless - unless, unless the idea is available as a fact in this spacetime that is, it can be obtained in a place and a given time. It will be a lot of hard work,-even luck-who knows? to bring such a blessing to mankind.

          Or like in Engineering, you can have an idea of the "perfect bridge" or you may think that a "perfect bridge" is independent from your conscious idea of it and has some sort of metaphysical existence of its own (who in a metaphysical realms needs bridges, or perfect bridges for that matter?) but to me the "bridge" is the we one that was planned and built and folks and vehicles transit on.
          Are my ideas the "truth"?- I don't know -but they sure work for me.

          Thanks Sterling.
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        Jul 31 2013: Interesting Carlos.
        To make sure I am following you: Do you think that, just because all that we know exists in spacetime, everything existent must be in spacetime? Does that not sound like a limited answer to you?

        As I see things there is a vast unknown that we are discussing, and heck that's what a good chunk of science is based around, the unknown. I, along with others, am simply proposing ideas to explain various possibilities of existence outside spacetime. So just because we don't know of existence outside of spacetime doesn't mean that it's not possible, but you seem to make it sound completely impossible. Just because a problem is difficult we should not stop questioning, we keep at it pushing the boundaries of what we don't know. I want to keep pushing beyond to the unknown, even if I fail trying.
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          Jul 31 2013: Sterling
          Man I can't agree more! we should keep questioning everything, absolutely! (sounds pretty much as something I would've said!)
          In the other hand you can fly a kite really high as long as your feet are on the "ground".

          Now can we have an idea of a being existing in realm that is not "this" universe? -yes!

          And yes everything must exist in the spacetime we live in-this universe- , Now does that means that maybe another physicists may demonstrate such "realms"possible in such a way that we can reproduce results or look at their math etc,in other words "something to sink our teeth into" I would love to see the work.

          But this is all we have, (IMO)

          And that said folks have the freedom to perceive reality as they may.As I posted prior think of the ancient Romans & Greeks, imagine how many of them lived and died in a culture that worshiped deities that today we consider just "figments "of ancient imaginations( yet we don't think that way of the Acropolis or the Colosseum or their literature and ideas that were the underpinning of our western civilization) Imagine how many Roman & Greek soldiers pray to their alabaster or marble deity figurine before combat. IMO we have not changed much in that regard.

          Let's keep trying even if failure lurks in the shadows!

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        Jul 31 2013: Carlos I thank you for this very fun back and forth discussion!

        While we may not agree fully on the matters of existence within or without spacetime I think we are at the point where we can, at the very least, see respect in each others opinions. :)

        I'd like to leave you with a final thought of mine. I came up with an idea when I was around 12 or 13 years old that stuck with me for awhile. Bear in mind it's just an idea and I understand this fully, but it could serve as a starting point for proof toward non-spatial and non temporal objects.

        When approaching a black hole time begins to slow. The closer you get, the slower time will be. Now we mathematically can describe what happens, but only up to the point BEFORE time slows to zero. After that we are not sure, but there you may possibly find evidence for non-temporal objects because there would be no time, theoretically of course.

        I also noticed that similar things happen when approaching the speed of light with time dilation. Time slows, but interestingly enough length also shortens from the viewpoint of the object. If you take a photon, from its point of view time would be standing still and the length of the universe would zero. Light itself, at least from its perspective, may not be spatial or temporal. Maybe thats why light doesn't take up space.(also theoretical)

        I know there are plenty of far fetched things I have mentioned and they may just be the product of an overactive imagination, but hey Einstien did say "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

        Thanks again Carlos!
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          Aug 1 2013: Sterling,
          In order to move from one place to another always takes a little time, no matter how fast you’re traveling. But “time slows down close to the speed of light”, and indeed at the speed of light no time passes at all. So how can light get from one place to another?

          Photons don't have a past or future and instantly go from birth to death, so to speak from their point of view(if that was possible). They don't even have mass so they can bounce off things and would never even feel it if they had the time. The entire universe is contracted into an infinitesimally small point in front of them so they can't see anything if they had the time. I'm sure it would be pretty boring except t they just don't have the time to begin to get bored.

          My pleasure Sterling!
    • Jul 30 2013: Great post Sterling!

      Your description of the universe as "the container" and spacetime as "all else" within the container, reminds me a bit of Platos Allegory of the Cave. Are you familiar?

      Best regards,
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        Jul 30 2013: Steve,
        I was using the idioms of Sterling, or paraphrasing to what I thought he was trying to convey on the above post, and yes I'm familiar with Plato's Cave Allegory.


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