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Carlos Marquez

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How can God exist beyond space and time?

I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....
Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.
Does God pops in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?
Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.
Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc, Please and thank you.
Keep the mental contortions civil & courteous, even artful which is always cool. Let's learn from each other!

"You're everywhere and no where, baby
That's where you're at"
Hi Ho Silver Lining


Closing Statement from Carlos Marquez

The operational word in my question was "how" could god or anything exists beyond space and time?, And the core answer after the often heated exchanges is that some folks believe such a fantastic particular possible yet unable to render a demonstrable explanation -why?- because it is impossible.
The incredible thing is that folks believe dogmas as such without questioning. Is similar to lets say slavery or interracial marriage or the prohibition, many in power used (still do ) the Bible to back up such views and today-thanks in a big part by Secular Humanism- are not active policies in our country. Many a Christian believed that all above mentioned stances were correct just as god exist beyond space and time.

I think that as a whole mankind is evolving away from dogmas into new horizons, faith based or divinely revealed knowledge will take a backseat to reason based knowledge. And for that process there is a demonstrable "How".

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      Jul 30 2013: Alberto,
      Yes- human understanding is limited , and look at the last 100 years and see all the progress we've made! Sure we probably are just flexing our noggins here , but I've learned quite a bit. It's the Universe quite an enigma?-yes-but just because a problem is difficult we should not stop questioning we keep at it pushing the boundaries of what we don't know.
      Think Alberto how many diseases we've conquered, powered flight, information & energy manipulation, and why not?-Physics-
      In my opinion you & I can stare at the universe and be awed by it and that is cool, but I want to keep pushing beyond to the unknown-even if I fail trying-
      Prof Einstein was a great man.

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          Jul 31 2013: Alberto,
          Sometimes I think that this incredibly vast and complex universe, with its hundreds of billions of galaxies, its uncountable trillions of stars – all of this – was made just for us? hmm -Nah-
          I mean Alberto look at the Sun ( actually don't look at it directly-kidding-) it shines at the "perfect" temperature for us.
          If I understand you correctly the world was designed for us( by a Creator) and through revelation(from the Creator) we learn more & more. So if X is perfect for humans, therefore God (or some other creator) made the universe.( I do not mean any offense I'm just trying to understand you).
          Why is the sun perfect for us?- It isn't,- we have evolved to make use of the sun as it is. Plants have evolved to convert solar energy into food through chlorophyll. Humans and animals have evolved to harness solar energy for warmth. We have adapted to the environment in which we live.

          Science is not Divine revelation but hard work by talented folks,lots of trail & error And Natural Methodology, has brought Science to its present state.

          I fell a bit of teleological argument (universe designed with a purpose) but then again I could be wrong.

          What Prof Einstein believed is in his experience, and I respect his opinion and yours as well.

          There is an element of randomness to our existence take for example the asteroid that hit earth long ago and killed many lifeforms on earth changing the Natural Selection landscape.

          Thanks Alberto,
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          Jul 31 2013: Alberto,
          I think I have answered (as best as I could) your last post. or maybe I'm a poor communicator...

          You ask about randomness, Well I'll tell you this is how I see it:First, let's take a look at a couple of the basic definitions of random:

          1. Proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, purpose, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.

          2. Statistics: of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen; where all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance. Unpredictable.

          OK, I would use the definitions above depending on the exact context or situation.I don't dispute that there are patterns in the universe, though, and even in truly random sets — like sequences of numbers — patterns will emerge. The existence of patterns does not contradict the existence of randomness. I also think that, in many circumstances, all members of a set of possible outcomes are either equally likely to occur, almost equally likely to occur, or if not then it's not possible to predict which is the most likely to occur. Theists may often believe that whatever happens does so as part of God's plans for them and the world, or God guiding events and causing certain outcomes to occur rather than others.
          I could be wrong but under your lines you think that I believe in an universe without order — that randomness entails disorder — and that therefore the existence of order in the universe means that some God must exist.
          The equation of randomness with disorder is incorrect,My thinking does not entail that the universe be disordered and order can in fact arise spontaneously, without any directed intervention from a conscious being. It can't be denied that the universe has order, structure, and patterns. I don't accept the idea that order, structure, and patterns are incompatible with randomness or that they require the prior presence of some "designer"
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          Jul 31 2013: Alberto,
          I appreciate your line on the thread but to the question: How can God exists beyond space & time?

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          Aug 1 2013: Alberto,
          Obviously there are patterns in our universe , we can calculate the orbit of the moon or the rotation of Earth for example, and yes once there was more spacetime available after the BB-and the energy"thinned out"- some (things were cooling down), matter began to form. And the mechanics of such events are known. This is also true for solar systems, galaxies, the calcium in your bones or the iron in your blood.
          Your other inquiries for spontaneous life, or life with no purpose is off topic but I think that you are implying a fine tuning of the universe and a designer -so fine-tuning, if it existed, would demonstrate design.That argument assumes teleology in regard to life as a premise in order to prove teleology. It is, to a certain extent, a circular argument.

          Also you are assuming that order cannot come out of chaos?-it has- we are here.

          Still, order randomness chaos, patterns etc, the questions still remains: How can God exist beyond space & time?


          PS sorry for late reply I've so busy , thank you for your patience.
    • Jul 30 2013: Alberto,
      I agree with you with regards to the inconsistency of any attempt to define God as a coporeal being (God by definition would not be God, if you could). I'm puzzled, however by your statements that "it is laughable....". Is it the " belief" that makes it "laughable", or the attempt? Surely you understand that both the religious and the scientific mind attempt to "explain the forces that created the universe...", they simply do it in different ways.

      Best regards,
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        • Jul 30 2013: Alberto,
          Laughter is a good thing. We should never take ourselves too seriously. We also should understand and appreciate our limitations. But just because we have limitations does not mean we should not attempt to learn as much as we can (both scientifically and spiritually) about the universe in which we live. These limitations never seemed to stop Einstein in his pursuit. If anything these limitations simply provided him a heathy sense of wonder and respect.

          It's the pursuit not je end that is worthwhile.

          Best regards,
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      Jul 31 2013: god in this sense seems to be describing our ignorance about the universe.
      what it is and why it is this way.
      not necessarily a person or intelligence.

      to assume a person or intlligence is behind these unknowns is simoly an argument from ignorance.

      the order in a crystal does not require any agency. as to the fundamental nature and existence of the universe there is no sign of any agency just human nature to assume one to explain stuff we dont understand.

      there could be agency but just in the same way little gods might be arranging atoms in a crystal. they could be. but know way to know if magical undetectible agency behind anything and everything.

      the reasonable position seems to be to withold belief on the claims of invisible agency whether it be for crystaks, gravity, disease, universe origins etc until there is sufficient evidence.

      ignorance is not evidence for agency.
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      Jul 31 2013: then why explain with or label what we do not understand, god?

      seems to be personifying ignorance?

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