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Carlos Marquez

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How can God exist beyond space and time?

I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....
Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.
Does God pops in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?
Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.
Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc, Please and thank you.
Keep the mental contortions civil & courteous, even artful which is always cool. Let's learn from each other!

"You're everywhere and no where, baby
That's where you're at"
Hi Ho Silver Lining


Closing Statement from Carlos Marquez

The operational word in my question was "how" could god or anything exists beyond space and time?, And the core answer after the often heated exchanges is that some folks believe such a fantastic particular possible yet unable to render a demonstrable explanation -why?- because it is impossible.
The incredible thing is that folks believe dogmas as such without questioning. Is similar to lets say slavery or interracial marriage or the prohibition, many in power used (still do ) the Bible to back up such views and today-thanks in a big part by Secular Humanism- are not active policies in our country. Many a Christian believed that all above mentioned stances were correct just as god exist beyond space and time.

I think that as a whole mankind is evolving away from dogmas into new horizons, faith based or divinely revealed knowledge will take a backseat to reason based knowledge. And for that process there is a demonstrable "How".

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    Jul 17 2013: George,
    I've tried to be as clear as I could have and as succinct, but I'm not that witty. But I like your contribution to this discussion, I think that you are right: God & Science do not mix. And you are right -there is no way to validate scientifically theological axioms. And you are right-yet again- The postulate "god exists beyond space and time" (I think is meant spacetime?) is a leap of faith.
    Science thus far is (I Think) the best way to understand reality, (Is faith a better way?), I mean we have to believe in things for good reasons(more likely true...) This are fundamental facts about existence, what steps do we take to figure out fact from fiction? Faith is no path to truth because an individual basis for his faith are totally different from another, Faith is gullibility, when there is no better reason-->plug in faith.Appeals to faith are the equivalent to an "I give up" . An oddly enough you see that outside religious claims people don't use faith to find the truth.
    Suppositions are not explanations, I'm not lost I know what I want, I want people to question articles of faith in an objective manner, How can anyone arrive to that conclusion: "God exists beyond space & time" while "knowing that they are going to shut down reason to accept that statement as true.
    This is very close to Miguel de Cervantes Don Quixote they were never any Giants just windmills, But all the same Don Quixote charged on.
    I hope that I communicated more clearly..

    • Jul 18 2013: See my reply to Georges post below, which I addressed to both George and yourself.
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        Jul 18 2013: Steve,
        See post bellow for both you and George
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        Jul 18 2013: Steve,
        I am not an expert on religious matters, far from it but I was part of the Opus Dei (Cath)once. If I recall correctly Dogma are a set of compulsory beliefs for a particular religion. And it takes faith to act upon dogmas (which must be believed without evidence). Dogma-The Trinity- based not in evidence but in faith-, Transubstantiation-Dogma-based on faith not evidence. Operationally speaking they are intertwined (IMO)
        Now I'm not looking to launch ad hominem attacks at religious folks. It has been my experience that when questioned theists (not all -my Best Friend Father Daniel-local priest!) regarding their beliefs feel personally attacked, Absurd! I do say that the mechanics of faith do places God in a "safe Heaven" out of reach for questioning- as it were-.
        Do I think theists are delusional because of their belief without evidence-yes-, Is it not a reality that groups use religion to have even children blow themselves up? -yes- Did Scientists created the Atom Bomb?-yes .
        I do not gain anything by attacking you personally -is not my style- Do I ask uncomfortable questions? -yes,And also I do start from the premise that everyone here is a good person, and a truth seeker. I apologize if I gave you a wrong impression. Like I told Mike it may be uncomfortable but your input is appreciated, it keeps me honest. I do not have any answers but lots of questions.
        To me the dumber question is the one no-one ask- for fear of ridicule, or worse. I don't think we should shut down but rather build a shared meaning, distinctions if you will, to have a more powerful meaningful dialogue.

        Sapere Aude!
    • Jul 18 2013: I have very clear the difference between the physical world and the spiritual world, so it is quite simple, if you want to understand the physical world then your tool must be science, if you want to dare into the spiritual world then your weapon of choice should be faith. Use one or the other depending on the field you are moving, there is no puzzle at all, there is no need to waste time trying to see faith in an objective way, just apply it when needed and discard it when not.
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        Jul 18 2013: George/Steve,
        Why do I think is important that we question statements like "God exists beyond space and time?" We must learn to question everything , fearlessly and relentlessly.,how can religion get a pass? Is it a cultural taboo? Is is too ingrained culturally? With a plethora of religious options worldwide are they all correct? Do we question our inherited beliefs? Should believers test their own faith from the perspective of an outsider, at the level of skepticism they use to evaluate other faiths? O there is a double standard, and if so why? I think that intuitively theists know faith will not pass the test, hiding behind faith tacitly concedes the argument for once faith is introduced into the mix the questioning stops. If faith would pass the test theists will embrace it, instead they buck against it .That alone speaks volumes.
        I think that not questioning faith breeds a culture of ignorance rather than a culture of discovery, Not questioning faith is Dogma and stops the conversation, these beliefs are off the table-no revision to new evidence & new arguments. Not only at the individual level but also at the level of nations.This is not "US" v "Them" no, for in order to have mutual collaboration-open ended-there's got to be a willingness to have our world views subjected to questioning. Or should I just give up and say that even thou we have a rational component to us, we rather live with an irrational worldview?. Or that in order to be happy you have to be delusional?!
        Religious views affects millions of people around the world and you want to cow me into not question it? I mean we all can laugh at Zeus,but we cannot laugh at a belief in Allah, or the Biblical God (even in TED) It's enigmatic, people are willing to blow themselves up and kill others for religious beliefs. So indeed we need to have the conversation and the questioning, evasiveness reeks dishonesty, Hiding in the faith "safe zone" is just irresponsible.

        Dare to Question!!!
        • Jul 18 2013: What you don't seem to realize is that this is a problem of context. Faith is by definition the blind belief on a dogma, therefore, if you take this in a social or whatever practical context, questioning a dogma is a waste of time. You just don't go trough life happily questioning dogmas while throwing away roses and singing lauds, no sir!. You question ideas in order to discover if they are dogmas or not, but once you know and understand something is a dogma you stop questioning and instead look for ways to avoid falling in that trap, when you find a dogma you discard it, get rid of it whatever the cost, throw it away like garbage, kill it without mercy, no further questions!!!. So in any physical, practical context discarding faith is the only responsible thing to do, not questioning it, because that is almost as irresponsible as blind belief.

          In conclusion: In purely practical context, dogmas are like garbage, if you hesitate to discard them they will cause you problems more sooner than later, so don't question faith, discard it. However if you take the same issue to a spiritual or theological context, questioning is in fact the most offensive and disrespectful act you can do, so don't question faith, accept it. The only safe place for this kind of arguments is in a pure philosophical context, so go ahead and question what ever you want.

          Hope now it is clear that context is everything.
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        Jul 18 2013: George,
        Is not only context is also content-. Think if you will of the numerous questions that once had a religious answer(Geocentric theory) - and now the authority of religion has been battered and nullified by science-do you think that was an accident? I'm not looking for "safety" I think you should question the ideas that support faith and the mental state -gullibility- And use reason and understanding o lead a wholesome life.

        "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." -- Frater Ravus
        • Jul 18 2013: George/Carlos,
          Faith and dogma are two entirely different things. Since you are so fond of definitions I pulled up Websters if you don't mind. The first two definitions for faith are ; 1.) allegiance to duty or to a person. 2.) fidelity to ones promises; sincerity of intention. There are too many definitions to list them all here, but I can assure you none of them make use of the word "dogma" or "blind belief".
          Here I set out to have an open and honest conversation with you both and in response you employ use of a straw man/fallacy by extension (I.e. religious folks don't question their beliefs, "hide" behind their beliefs, are delusional, or blow themselves up and kill others). Couldn't the same be said for some within the non-religious community? I believe it was science that created the atom bomb.
          Throughout all of my posts below, I've attemted to engage in open and honest discussion, to which you I am met with evasive or intellectually dishonest responses. I grow weary of the tactics and I really had hoped for better. You've shown your true colors.

          "When you think you've got all the answers, it's time to ask better questions."
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      Jul 20 2013: I just got to this post!
      I have to answer: Of COURSE there is a better way to understand Reality!
      Reality is the Here and Now. The rest is memories or speculations.
      So to really understand Reality you must first STOP your intellectual roaming around. Then try to center yourself into Here-Now. Do you see it? Do you feel it? Do you hear it?
      Yes! That is the ONLY REALITY!!!!!
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        Jul 20 2013: Mike,
        I like the phrase" The rest is memories or speculations."
        And time that continuous parameter- Interestingly - a 'reverse' phenomenon also exists - the brain reaches back in time to reconstruct in real time (for the brain's owner's perception) a past it was not aware of- it is what happens, for instance, when you look at your (analog) watch and you see the seconds hand staying still for more than a second, leading you to actually think that your watch has stopped.
        You are right we are stuck in the now! We can plot past events along a time axis, like we can record music on a vinyl surface channel but the NOW is never recorded. We can move in space but not in time.


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