This conversation is closed.

## Maths came before music

The moment consciousness can differentiate many from one, it becomes fundamentally mathematically endowed. This is the precursor of axiomatic tautology of mathematics that can, given enough combinations, get as complex as you can imagine.

Mathematical skill therefore should predate musical skill in human evolution.

## John Mauren

I also don't believe that it takes mathematical skills to feel or carry rhythm. I'm no musician, but I do play the guitar once in a while, and when I'm just making up songs as I go, not a single number runs through my thoughts, I just play.

However, I do entertain the notion that musical skill as we know it today has roots in mathematics. This can be traced back thousands of years, but if one were to suggest that mathematics came before music, I'd say they're wrong.

As well, Common Meter is every where... and yes, it can be syllable counts such as 8.6.8.6.8.6.8.6, or rhyming schemes such as a-b-a-b-c-d-c-d, but I'd argue that mathematics isn't what allowed for us to create these things, it's more intrinsic.

Music is the shorthand of emotion.

Leo Tolstoy

All good music resembles something. Good music stirs by its mysterious resemblance to the objects and feelings which motivated it.

Jean Cocteau

A little Devil's advocate:

Is it numbers that created music, or is it music that created the numbers associated with it. Are numbers even real?

Our brains seek patterns, adjusts, then expects and predicts what's next... to create from these observations and place into form doesn't require mathematics. Even if crude in form, music may still manifest.

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

Pots are more than one pot - mathematical ability. Filling with more water than less water - mathematical ability. Different tones are more than one note - mathematical ability.

One may like to see mathematical skill as more fundamental than you are saying it to be.

I am not discussing about numbers or decimal counts at all. There are other kinds of numbers possible on different bases. But the ability to quantize the reality and sensing there are more things than one is fundamental. Even for extraterrestrial maths this should be valid.

## Vince Graham

## adesh saxena 30+

From than on every paricle of our universe is dancing in harmony over a celestial song.

Maths and other faculty of sceinces only confirms and prove it.

## Sean Brother 20+

## Rebecca Heisler

## Robert Winner 100+

I went to Wikipedia, looked up Golden Ratio and the section on music .... They am smart folks.

This does not answer the which came first question but instead confirms the compliment between Math, science, music, and the Arts.

As we evolve we find the basics are constant. These things were observed and writen Before Christ (BC). We should recall and embrace History and learn from it or we will certainly repeat the errors documented in History.

I wish you well. Bob.

## Vince Graham

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

## Vince Graham

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

http://colinallen.dnsalias.org/Secure/TCA/brannon-final.pdf

## Comment deleted

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

But when we confront memes like 'women don't like maths' or 'he took humanities because he is weak in maths' , may be my idea matters. It can, if developed and appreciated well, help to demystify mathematics and debunk myths associated with it.

## Comment deleted

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

You know Kate, math is too simple an abstraction for complicated human mind, which seeks fuzzy and complex patterns to make sense of. So I understand what you say.

## Comment deleted

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

Before or After?

## Comment deleted

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

My idea should encourage one to think rationally about that.

## Comment deleted

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

I believe that there is a biological basis of mathematics (not the higher and highly abstract branches but number sense and ordinal numerical ability). You can imagine all kinds of survival scenarios where this trait could be naturally selected over others.

The book 'The nature of mathematical thinking' by Robert J. Sternberg looks promising for this inquiry.

## Demetrius Amadeus 10+

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

I don't think it is necessary to understand capability of solving mathematical problems (computation) as the mathematical ability. It may be far more fundamental than that.

## edward long 100+

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

Humans and some higher order primates seem to develop the ability of recognizing 'self' as differentiated from everything else (mirror test) in childhood and some say that is differentiating ONE from Many. I don't fully agree.

2. Everything, or most things. In fact any simple configuration can get immensely complex proceeding of reiterations based on very simple rules (Game of Life). They can get so complex that at a later point it becomes extremely counter-intutive to imagine the simple origin and the dumb rules that give birth to the complexity.

3. No. But theory of evolution does require complexity coming out of simplicity not the vice verse.

## edward long 100+

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

## edward long 100+

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

Such formation of entropy islands is a verified fact in Chaos theory too.

## edward long 100+

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

## Fritzie - 200+

## Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 50+

## Rebecca Heisler