This conversation is closed.

Discussing the fundamental nature of Katz presentation and the validity of the claims he makes in the video.

He makes claims in this video that are false.
His statement and focus on men ignores the fundamental question why do some people abuse other people.
Non-feminist oriented studies made says that women abuse there male partners physically and emotionally to the same degree as men do their female partners and according to some studies even more.
Also there is more spousal abuse in female homosexual relationships than in male homosexual relationships. If the problem is men why do homosexual women hit their spouses more?

What he is doing and talking about makes it harder to help people because what he speaks of is fundamentally false. Perhaps some in the audience work in healthcare system. A woman comes in and has signs of abuse. Shes there with a woman. The nurse/doctor given the myths reinforced by this talk will not think that the woman sitting there with their patient might be the one that psychically abused her.

Also when it comes to sexual abuse etc. at least 20% of the perpetrators of sexual abuse of children are female. Young boys taken advantage of by older women are not seen as victims of abuse but a lot of them suffer psychological effects that lead them to violence and drug abuse.
When college students were asked about if they had sex even if they didnt want to a lot more men than women said they had had sex even if they didn't want to.

When it comes to his "By stander approach", it has not been scientifically evaluated. He has no factual backing if it works. There is no comparatives studies made at all with regards to any of his methods. He has just made the methods up from what I can tell. Hes a good salesman so people buy into the feminism inspired male bashing.

Essentially the video and the presenter lies and/or is totally uninformed with regards to the research that exists, the statistics that are available.

If men are the problem why do women do the same thing? Perhaps its not a sex issue, perhaps god forbid its something else entirely

  • Jun 9 2013: I think it's important for the TED community to have some context for this reckless and irresponsible post and conversation topic initiated by Andreas N. From the moment my initial TEDXWomen talk went up, the comments section has been overrun by men's rights activists (MRAs) and other aggrieved men who have, in the usual fashion, attacked and ridiculed me, feminists, progressives, and anyone else who doesn't see as clearly as they do that men are the truly oppressed sex-class.

    Again as per usual, my words (and those of women/feminists) have been misrepresented, distorted, and dismissed. Let me be clear: I believe that my work, and the work of feminists more generally, is dedicated to reducing violence and abuse both against women and against men. Much of my work, in fact, (like my first film Tough Guise) is devoted to looking at how cultural constructs of masculinity hurt men. But for the record, my talk was centrally about men's violence against women and children, and the fact that some men are clearly upset by that ("what about all the men abused by women?!") is yet further evidence of some men's discomfort with their needs and agendas not being center-stage 24/7.

    But I can't let some of Andreas's and other MRA distortions go unanswered, especially their repeated (and false) mantra that "women abuse men as often as men abuse women." They typically claim that "the" research "proves this," when it does no such thing. So I have provided links to two articles (there are many more) that survey and deconstruct research on DV and gender symmetry. Of course this doesn't include sexual violence, sexual harassment, and sexual abuse, all of which are perpetrated overwhelmingly (but not exclusively) by men.


    By Michael Kimmel
    http://www.xyonline.net/sites/default/files/Kimmel,%20Gender%20symmetry%20in%20dom.pdf


    By Michael Flood
    http://www.xyonline.net/content/he-hits-she-hits-assessing-debates-regarding-men’s-and-women’s-experiences-domestic-violence
    • Jun 9 2013: Jackson Thanks for the good talk Looking at your comments above, there is not as much difference than you both seem to think. An objective third observer and former divorce lawyer might suggest that men are larger and can do more damage. To suggest that women shouldn't hit men doesn't make me or maybe Andreas MRA's. That's the beauty of dialogue We can see different views. Yes, I represented mostly women. While I represented some battered women ditto for two men. People should be kind to each other, and one should look at an issue of degree.
    • Jun 9 2013: Thank you, Mr. Katz.
      You know, if every presentation on TED HAD to incorporate every single perspective, every single eventuality, every single statistic, it would entirely defeat the purpose. When I saw your talk, it was clear to me what you were focusing on, which in no way implied to me ignoring any other abusive group!

      I applaud you for your point of view, and for reaching out.
    • Jun 9 2013: Also where is the research that suggest that your By stander approach has any value at all in doing what you claim it do. Have your methods ever been scientifically evaluated?
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        Jun 9 2013: Until Mr. Katz gets back to you, here is a link to a fairly recent meta-analytical study of evaluations of interventions to reduce domestic violence. http://www.public.iastate.edu/~ccutrona/psych592a/articles/Treatment%20meta%20analysis%20for%20batterers.pdf

        As you will read, these are interventions directed at people who have already commited domestic violence.
        • Jun 9 2013: My concern was the method he is suggesting, the one he has sold to the US gov and other organizations. That method is not a treatment for people committing domestic violence.
          I know there are treatments for abusers that are effective. In Norweigh they are used in Sweden they are not because in Sweden the cause is said to be men themselves.
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        Jun 9 2013: Here is more, perhaps, of what you are looking for then: http://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/part-4-bystander-interventions-violence-prevention
        • Jun 9 2013: Much better. Thats more of what I was looking for. Even better would be if there is any evidence at all that the behaviors change. That is lowering of sexual harassment, rape etc. Not just attitude changes that revert after a few months.
          Telling people its wrong to rape, sexually harass etc is all fine and dandy. But if there is no actual change in behavior then its, in practice, pointless.
          There is already a higher likelyhood that men will intervene when women are hurt. A man hits a woman in a bar. Men react. Woman hits a man in a bar. No one reacts and most likely think he deserves it.
          Also that link also states:
          "A challenge in establishing this is that evidence regarding the effectiveness of violence prevention efforts in general is limited. Few interventions have been formally evaluated and existing evaluations often are limited methodologically or conceptually.[227]"
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        Jun 9 2013: Andreas, I am not informed in this field. I looked to Google Scholar, as I often do when someone inquires about available research on a subject on which I am not myself well-versed.

        Here is another resource: http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/17/6.toc

        There are several members of this community who have worked in this or neighboring areas who will be better informed.
        • Jun 9 2013: I have tried to find research my self on the efficiency but not been successful. Thats really how I came into contact with Katz from the get go. He was keynote speaker on a how to prevent violent teenage boys in Sweden. I wondered on what grounds he was invited and got bunch of links to methods but no evidence of their actual effiency.

          I find issue with govs spending money on methods that has not been evaluated and paying speakers to talk on subjects they have no verifiable knowledge of except saying the correct stuff. Sweden is a very feminismdominated country and one of the parties that invited Katz is a radicalfeministoriented group called Men for equality. Though in practice they are not for equality involving both sexes.
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      Jun 9 2013: Thank you, Jackson for providing the first link. The second link does not work any longer, I believe.

      One of the values I find in TED Conversations is that participants can come to understand subjects better when those who have delved deeply into a subject share evidence as you have here. You have probably noticed in all areas in life that people often invoke research and statistics that turn out not to exist or that have been misrepresented or misinterpreted either by the person making the post or taking the stand or by the person he/she heard about the subject from..

      I don't think this is always meant badly. It can just be a mistake. Sometimes people, for example, just believe representations made by those they trust. A forum like this one can allow such people to hear more than an insulated point of view.

      In fact, on most subjects, when someone makes claims that don't conform to what can be supported by evidence, this site is active enough that others will come in with the evidence or arguments they have. And those who are interested have an opportunity to follow up on different points of view and the evidence that is put forward.

      Sometimes, of course, people's views and the way they present them are connected to their anecdotal life experience. There are probably people who have been abused in this community, including males.

      As Andreas in his reply to you links to the evidence he finds compelling on these questions, you will be able to flag what you believe is suspect in his sources so he can consider them in that different light.
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      Jun 9 2013: Dear Mr. Katz,
      You will note that I asked the same question "How did TED allow this conversation to be added? "
      I will only add this quote by Tony Porter's excellent TEDTalk.

      " The center for disease control says that men's violence against women is at epidemic proportions, is the number one health concern for women in this country and abroad."

      http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/intimatepartnerviolence/datasources.html

      http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/healthmedical/a/violencecosts.htm

      Men are very much a part of the solution as well as the problem.

      Thank you for lendng your voice to these issues, and for all your efforts,

      T A Hoppe
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        Jun 11 2013: Agree Theodore....I do not understand why TED has allowed this discussion to continue. When the facilitator continues to state things like...""almost no men are violent in practice", we can clearly see that he is in total denial of facts.

        Men can indeed be part of the solution, many men have been, and continue to be part of the solution, and I am grateful for that.
    • Jun 9 2013: It does not matter if I am MRA or not. My concern is equality. If women fight as well then how can it be an issue with men and not violent individuals?

      "and the fact that some men are clearly upset by that"
      Some men are upset because you ignore half of the victims and half of the potential perpetrators. That is men as victims and women as abusers. Writing stuff like this is to act in demeaning way towards your critics. That's not exactly a constructive debate is it? You essentially say your opponents are like spoiled children.

      Lesbians fight as well. They suffer from a bad masculinity as well?
      “Gardner (1989) had straight, gay, and lesbian couples rate the violence in their relationship on a scale ranging from 36 (no violence) to 288 (severe violence). The average score for straight was 38.51, for gay was 39.6, and for lesbian couples was 40.22. ” (http://www.psychpage.com/gay/library/gay_lesbian_violence/dv_gay_couples_intro2.html).

      21,8 men, 27,1 women says they'ed been hit by a parter after age 15. 5,6 and 5,7 in the last year. ”Vold i parforhold – ulike perspektiver” (Violence in relationships, different perspectives) 2005, NIBR, http://www.nibr.no/pub100

      "This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: [...], which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600. "
      http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

      Your references:
      Kimmel: A biased article in a biased journal. Of course a journal thats titled Violence against women would not publish an article that claims that gender symmetry exist.
      Also the article it self is biased. Essentially it boils down to those that say gender symmetry exist use the wrong tool that is Conflict Tactics Scale.

      Flood: Use the above article as reference. The reasoning is similar as well.
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        Jun 13 2013: I provided links to the Center for Disease Control after citing Tony Porter's quote.
        Are they "bias?" You ignore those references.
    • Jun 9 2013: Since you bring up your Tough Guise video. I assume this is on topic and the TED admins wont remove this reply.

      "I believe that my work, and the work of feminists more generally, is dedicated to reducing violence and abuse both against women and against men."
      In practice that does not seem to be the case. You only talk about male perpetrators. Your thesis in Tough Guise is also flawed. If your interested we can discuss that as well. The major flaw is that you take a small percentage of men to be the norm for all men. You also simplify your analysis to be that of masculinity being flawed. The rootcause is never investigated. You have fixated on masculinity not other issue such as socioeconomic factors, psychology, lonelyness, fatherlessness, sexual relationships and what women find intriguing in men and so forth.
      You also ignore the fact that the modern society is the most peaceful society that has ever existed and do not ask the question why.
      The fact that you use movies as the setup for your Tough Guise and completly miss your own reference to the potrayal of chinese as violent in movies and the fact that they committ the fewest violent crimes and crime in general in the US. So the portrayal of men in movies does not affect the behavior of some men.

      Also your reasoning is that the norm equals dominance and that others are subordinated. Such as your example in that video with regards to what do you think when someone says Race, Sexual Orientation or Gender.
      Then you talk about that we talk about female victims and not male perpetrators. However no where in the video do you discuss the fact that almost no men actually commits rape, sexual violence, violence in general etc.
      You claim that masculinity causes violence but present no evidence for this being the case. All other factors are ignored.
      You ignore the fact in forexample the Bobbits that he was laughed at about the fact that a man was mutiliated. A woman being mutilated is never a joke. Latest is The View.
    • Jun 9 2013: Also you even claim that videogames creates violent young men but there is no proof of that. So in that video as in your TED talk you make claims of which you have no basis.
    • Jun 10 2013: The speaker is talking in his own paradigm, he didn't present to speak about the different paradigms in women abuse, so please stop saying that he needs to address the other side of battered woman. That wasn't his point! Also, yes, he uses words that we, as ignorants, feel he shouldn't because of the connotation they carry.... Please look into Sous Rature, the only reason he uses these words is so that we, as a society, are able to understand what he is talking about.
      Please open your mind.
      • Jun 10 2013: Sous Ruture? Hardly. He talks about a phenomenon not just limited to men. Hes talking like most feminists talk its not a tool its how they view the world and the issues in it.
        How we react to women beating men and men beating women. And he says the cause is men and manhood and men should be more involved?
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWBHD6oTJIA
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      Jun 11 2013: Jackson,
      SOME of the TED community is aware of this discussion as a "reckless and irresponsible" conversation initiated by Andreas N., who apparently is not willing to look at even the very basic facts. I am very surprised TED has allowed this to continue.

      This was brought to your attention before:
      The second link you provide (Michael Flood) appears not to be available.
  • Jun 11 2013: It's important to know that women have been abused and stereotyped for years. Katz is not trying to pin point all causes of violence, he is specifically talking about domestic violence and sexual abuse. He's trying to change our pespective to think of these issues as a men's issue because it is a reality that men have an advantage over women in many cultures. Personally, this issue is a social problem that involves everyone, if women have no respect for themselves and men have no respect for women, and if we're not willing to help those children who are abused and grow up to be abusers, or if we keep pointing finger and critizicing without providing a serious alternative, then violence against women, men, and children will never be abolished. It needs to be abolished socially, in a general sense, all violence would need to be abolished then, including war.

    He is providing an alternative not a solution to the end of all violence because that would require a worldwide massive political and social change on how we've been handling our lives, private and public, and our countries. How we've raised our kids and how we've been raised.
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      Jun 11 2013: Well said Deborah, and I think a worldwide change would be GREAT! Violence and abuse is a global issue that can be addressed by all of us. Rather than fighting against change, as some do, it would be good to be part of the solution. Every journey begins with a single step, and one of the first steps is awareness.
      • Jun 12 2013: What Katz is trying to do is bring awareness, and it is true that we are asking the wrong questions, that men are not advocates for the fight against abuse. It's also true that violence is universal surpassing all groups - economic, social, gender. But he is starting, he describes the problem as a leadership problem, and behind leadership there are many different characteristics to take into consideration, how you were raised, self-esteem, life experiences, internal resources, so many different things.

        But I totally appreciate him speaking up about something that is happening everywhere and affects us privately and publicly. The numbers are huge, and those are just the numbers that we know, estimates, but what's the reality? How many women in the world are suffering abuse? Children?

        We all need to help. It is our responsability. We owe that much to the World and to Us.
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    Jun 9 2013: I think Mr. Katz is right. I have many female work colleague's, & over the years have found many cases of what can only be described as emotional abuse. On the outside things look ok, but many men are bad tempered bullies.
    This has nothing to do with statistics, homosexuality, or women bullying men; that is another can of worms. What I deduce is that a large percentage of women are in trouble,& it is their partners that are responsible.
    We attached males have to take this on board & treat all women, but especially our own, with dignity & respect. There is nothing 'manly' about bullying a woman, whether physically, or emotionally. It's not easy being a guy, life is full of frustrations. Let's share it with our partners instead of bottling it up & roaring at her.

    :-)
  • Jun 8 2013: Your criticisms might have some validity, but I think that Katz has every right to speak from his own experience, as opposed to using research or statistics. Katz was not invited onto the stage to speak as a scientist.

    The central message that I heard is that leadership training could be very effective in curbing gender abuse. Considering the current gender abuse scandal in the military, I think his approach is worth trying. (That is my opinion, and I have no research to support it.)

    Some of your criticisms are not based on fact:

    First, Katz very specifically acknowledged that the problem is much broader than just male violence against women. His first point, that gender violence is largely considered as a women's issue, is accurate. Trying to correct that attitude is admirable, but personally I think it is a people issue, not a men's issue and not a women's issue.

    "Hes a good salesman so people buy into the feminism inspired male bashing."
    This talk was not about male bashing, IMO, it was about the responsibility of males in a cultural context.

    By the way, do you have the answer to "the fundamental question why do some people abuse other people." ?
    • Jun 9 2013: Barry I believe that interpersonal violence is a problem that should be worked on. I also believe that it can become male bashing. Personally - I have never hit a woman, but a girlfriend struck me. I asked her why?, and she ignored the question. As a lawyer, I felt obligated to break-up with her. She spent the night on my front apartment porch screaming and yelling. This is only anecdotal , but suggests to me that it is a wider problem than just a women's problem.
    • Jun 9 2013: Men are no more responsible for what other men do than afro americans, muslims, hillbillies and what not.
      Heck Katz blamed the "manhood" in the Newtown massacre.
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-katz/men-gender-gun-violence_b_2308522.html
      He makes general claims about 49% of the population based on the actions of 0.000001% of the same group.
      in Sweden when Im from we have feminists saying that our manhood culture is bad and needs to change. Still we are among the most equal nations in the world and our young boys are among the least violent prone in the world. Still manhood is the problem. Its just so stupid.
      • Jun 12 2013: 'Men are no more responsible for what other men do than afro americans, muslims, hillbillies and what not.'

        I agree, and Katz did not say, or even imply, anything like that.

        'Heck Katz blamed the "manhood" in the Newtown massacre.'

        Katz did not blame "manhood" for anything. He is trying to bring the conversation around to our cultural myth of manhood, and how, in some specific cases, that myth might be linked to some men committing violence. I think that the culture of the USA is more violent than in many other countries. Since most of the violence is committed by men, it only makes sense to explore that link. That cultural myth of manhood is propagated by women as well as men.

        'He makes general claims about 49% of the population based on the actions of 0.000001% of the same group.'

        Katz made no such claim. This statement is simply false.

        A quote from the article you site: 'Don't buy the manipulative argument that it's somehow "anti-male" to focus on questions about manhood in the wake of these ongoing tragedies. '

        Katz says that most mass attacks, like the one at Newtown, are committed by men, and that the media should not be ignoring that fact, but should be exploring it. That seems very reasonable to me. If most such attacks were committed by women, I am sure that gender would be a big part of the resulting coverage and discussion.

        In your topic explanation you stated: "What he is doing and talking about makes it harder to help people because what he speaks of is fundamentally false."

        When you make false statements, you hinder discussion.

        I agree with you that the issue of domestic violence is not a man's issue. This issue is for everyone. Katz is emphasizing a part of the issue that has been largely ignored. I do not know how much importance we should place on "manhood" in the context of the overall problem, but he has made a very good argument that it should be considered. I believe Katz is addressing culture in the USA only.
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    Jun 24 2013: TEN THINGS MEN CAN DO TO PREVENT GENDER VIOLENCE

    Approach gender violence as a MEN'S issue involving men of all ages and socioeconomic, racial and ethnic backgrounds. View men not only as perpetrators or possible offenders, but as empowered bystanders who can confront abusive peers
    If a brother, friend, classmate, or teammate is abusing his female partner -- or is disrespectful or abusive to girls and women in general -- don't look the other way. If you feel comfortable doing so, try to talk to him about it. Urge him to seek help. Or if you don't know what to do, consult a friend, a parent, a professor, or a counselor. DON'T REMAIN SILENT.
    Have the courage to look inward. Question your own attitudes. Don't be defensive when something you do or say ends up hurting someone else. Try hard to understand how your own attitudes and actions might inadvertently perpetuate sexism and violence, and work toward changing them.
    If you suspect that a woman close to you is being abused or has been sexually assaulted, gently ask if you can help.
    If you are emotionally, psychologically, physically, or sexually abusive to women, or have been in the past, seek professional help NOW.
    Be an ally to women who are working to end all forms of gender violence. Support the work of campus-based women's centers. Attend "Take Back the Night" rallies and other public events. Raise money for community-based rape crisis centers and battered women's shelters. If you belong to a team or fraternity, or another student group, organize a fundraiser.
    Recognize and speak out against homophobia and gay-bashing. Discrimination and violence against lesbians and gays are wrong in and of themselves. This abuse also has direct links to sexism (eg. the sexual orientation of men who speak out against sexism is often questioned, a conscious or unconscious strategy intended to silence them. This is a key reason few men do so).
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    Jun 24 2013: (continued)
    Attend programs, take courses, watch films, and read articles and books about multicultural masculinities, gender inequality, and the root causes of gender violence. Educate yourself and others about how larger social forces affect the conflicts between individual men and women.
    Don't fund sexism. Refuse to purchase any magazine, rent any video, subscribe to any Web site, or buy any music that portrays girls or women in a sexually degrading or abusive manner. Protest sexism in the media.
    Mentor and teach young boys about how to be men in ways that don't involve degrading or abusing girls and women. Volunteer to work with gender violence prevention programs, including anti-sexist men's programs. Lead by example.

    This is from The website of Jackson Katz: http://www.jacksonkatz.com/index.html
  • Jun 19 2013: "Essentially the video and the presenter lies and/or is totally uninformed with regards to the research that exists, the statistics that are available. If men are the problem why do women do the same thing?"

    No, women CAN'T do the same kind of battering as men. Men generally out weigh and certainly out muscle women. That makes a very BIG difference.

    I wonder Mr. N are you a misogynist? I say this because you seem to be using the word feminist as a negative. Why? Feminism simply means political, social, and economic EQUALITY to men. Therefore, those "feminist" studies would have already taken into account female on female battering as well as female on male battering. Criminal records and police statistics don't support your position that female on male abuse is to the same degree as male on female abuse; indeed, the records support the contrary. Additionally, abuse center statistics show that females who are chronically abused by male significant-others tend to stay in those relationships until desperate, and if the female victims try to defend themselves physically, their male abusers quickly turn the legal tables on those females. There are many studies that track the modus operandi of male on female abuse, and such studies are chilling.

    As for your comment that older women are taking advantage of young boys, I am receiving the message that you abhor the idea of older woman DATING younger men. Me thinks you strongly believe in patriarchy. Additionally, rape of boys by older females is rare, and is mostly a legal technicality due to the minor status of the boy as no violence is inflicted. Rape of boys by MALES, however, is violent, significant and very troubling. To be sure, rape is a violent act, and rape of females by men is rampant in the third world, and is growing here in the US.

    Finally, why are you conflating child abuse with spousal abuse? To be sure, your conflation diminishes the seriousness of both issues.
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    Jun 10 2013: It must be uncomfortable for a victim of abuse to read all this rumpus. What cannot be debated is the existence of the problem of abusive behavior. It happens from the nursery to the elder care facilities and everywhere in between. Should TEDsters step-back a second and ask if we are bringing anything to the table that is worth sharing? Perhaps protecting the innocent is more important than placing the blame. In firefighting they get the fire out first, then search for the cause. We seem to be in the way of those trying to put out the fire here. I understand there are complex causal relationships and that statistics are valuable contributors to solutions, but we ought not lose sight of the immediate need to stop this problem.
    • Jun 10 2013: Yep. But if we only look at some of the perpetrators we might be missing the actual causes for the violent behaviors etc. Men arent violent because they are men since almost no men are violent in practice.
      Females arent violent because they are female either. Need to look at what the cause is for the violent behavior.
      Masculinity is a feminist go to solution which is just wrong. When feminist and like-minded individuals discuss they usually take everything negative about men as a whole and name that masculinity. No one would say that femininity is the cause for a violent woman.
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        Jun 10 2013: Andreas,
        You say..."almost no men are violent in practice". You want to think about that statement a little more?

        You are absolutely right....we "need to look at what the cause is for the violent behavior".

        Katz encourages ALL PEOPLE.....both men and women....to address the challenge. Why does that bother you so much?
        • Jun 10 2013: "Katz encourages ALL PEOPLE.....both men and women....to address the challenge. Why does that bother you so much?"
          You keep repeating that but thats not the thing I have problem with. Since you fail to see the issue then there is nothing to debate regardless how many times I write it in one way or another. But I do one last try.
          He says men violent, men and women should help with it.
          I say individuals (both women and men but not always the same percentage) are violent and we should help and recognize all their victims and prevent individuals regardless of gender to become violent in the first place.
          Can you see the difference in approach?
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        Jun 10 2013: I am repeating because you are repeating Andreas.

        Andreas, I do not "fail to see the issue". I have been addressing the issue of violence and abuse for 60+ years. I am failing to see YOUR issue.

        I totally agree with you...."we should help and recognize all their victims and prevent individuals regardless of gender to become violent in the first place."

        Katz also recommends what you recommend. That is why I keep asking if you actually watched the video:>)
        • Jun 10 2013: Please enlighten me to where in the video he says what I'm saying. Would be benificial. All I hear is men do this men do that. Not, some men do this or that. Neither do I hear some women do this or that.
          The talk would be more factual and not ideologically biased if it talked about domestic violence and abuse from a gender neutral standpoint. Such as both some men and women do bad stuff in relationships. We need to get more men involved in this since this concerns them as well. both as potential victims and as community members.

          If this was a talk about black mens as group violence this would not even been posted. Same goes with muslims and other groups. But when it comes to men you can talk on a general group level without anyone raises an eyberow. Since thats just how men are.
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        Jun 10 2013: Absolutely Andreas..."We need to get more men involved in this since this concerns them as well. both as potential victims and as community members".

        That is EXACTLY what Katz is saying!
        • Jun 10 2013: No its not he ignore the lesbians violence, he ignores the female abusers etc. So its not exactly what hes saying. I include women as perpetrators of crime he does not.
          How this keeps getting missed is beyond me.
          Personally I find it sexist not to recognize women as potential criminals. Its also a major cause for concern since female criminals do not get the help they need because women do no wrong. This attitude then is detrimental for the women because they run the risk of getting even more involved in crime because of how society views female criminals.
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          Jun 10 2013: Yes, it really is what he is saying.

          Perhaps reading the transcript will make it more clear?
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        Jun 10 2013: I think I see your concern that portraying males as the (sole) cause of abusive behavior is off-target. I suppose that easily retrieved statistics could illustrate the percentages of male versus female initiated abuse and that would put that question to rest. Then we are left with the question, "How do we stop it?" Am I understanding your issue? By the way, you may want to explain the statement, ". . . almost no men are violent in practice." Thanks for sharing your perspective.
        • Jun 10 2013: See my posts higher up in the conversation with regards to prevalence.

          " By the way, you may want to explain the statement, ". . . almost no men are violent in practice." Thanks for sharing your perspective."
          Issue is that we talk about men violence against women on a general level. But almost no men actually are violent against women. Its a very low percentage of men that excibit this behavior. When looking at who hits and kills women its not normal men either.

          Its like talking about muslims and terrorism. There are 1.2 billion muslims so talking about muslims commit terrorism takes things out of proportion. It takes one characteristic of some terrorists and generalizes it to all muslims. Some terrorists are muslim but therefor it does not mean all muslims are terrorists. The terrorists are not terrorists because they are muslim (male, member of a fraternity, etc). Most muslims from the same background, cultural environment etc does not end up being terrorists.

          Also we as a society care deeply about women getting hurt. We ridicule men that get hurt.
          A thoughtfull rant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ
          Can see whole clip first in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh1p_UWXjBw

          How we react to women beating men and men beating women. And he says the cause is men and manhood and men should be more involved?
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWBHD6oTJIA
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          Jun 10 2013: Andreas,
          You write..."almost no men actually are violent against women. Its a very low percentage of men that excibit this behavior"

          The links you provide do not support your claim, and in fact, serve more to reinforce what Jackson Katz talks about.
        • Jun 10 2013: As a short reply to Colleen Steen.

          Dear Colleen - how i the world can you find that the to videolinks supplyed by Andreas is supporting the overall tone in Jacksons performance. Both videos - in a disturbing manner - show EXACTLY why some of us men are so upset. The videos give a clear voice to the growing feeling that some people - women mostly - think it is OK to rant and talk down on men.

          "Shame on you Ms Steen" - not to understand this.
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          Jun 10 2013: Dear Pär Jönsson,
          I do not accept the "shame" you are trying to give to me. Perhaps it is your own shame?

          The first video shows a man using abusive, offensive language. Rather than reinforcing abuse, it would be helpful if that man was part of the solution, rather than part of the problem....as Jackson Katz suggests.

          I'm not sure why some of you men are so upset at a talk, which clearly says that both men AND women can be part of the solution.
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      Jun 10 2013: Good points Edward.

      "The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it".
      (Chinese Proverb)

      It appears that this discussion was started for the purpose of criticizing Katz, which doesn't make any sense, nor does it provide anything of value toward dealing with violence and abuse in our world.
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        Jun 10 2013: Like any of us, Mr. Katz is open to criticism. I think he is trying to contribute to a solution, or, as your proverb would say, he is trying to "do it" while Andreas N. by questioning the assumption of male causation, is saying "it can't be done (that way)". I think both of the contenders are focused on factors not immediately helpful to victims and that's OK I guess, even though I would prefer asset (Time, Thought, Communication, etc.) expenditures more focused on putting-out the fire. Thanks for sharing the proverb! Be well Ms. Steen.
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          Jun 11 2013: I agree Edward, that anyone is open to criticism, even when effectively contributing to a solution.

          In this discussion, however, we are seeing arguments, including, "almost no men are violent in practice", which is a total denial of facts.
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    • Jun 9 2013: Zx it would be interesting to have a cite to your statictics. I agree that this can become male bashing, but problems should be dealt with. I do know that women file most divorces, but I do not believe one gender group is better or worse than the others in this area. I do believe that the ladies are more articulate. That brings me to a war story that I won't tell.
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    Jun 13 2013: I urge others to listen to this TEDxTalk by Joe Ehrmann.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVI1Xutc_Ws
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    Jun 10 2013: RE: your response: "See my posts higher up. . . ". If statistics show males to be a prime contributor to abusive behavior then that problem deserves to be accepted as reality and a solution sought. To use that statistic to say ALL males are prime contributiors to abusive behavior is both illogical and unintelligent. Are you saying Mr. Katz is guilty of applying data true of a small segment of a group (males) to all of the group? It should be clarified immediately whether you are, or are not, making that accusation! I hope you agree and comply. Thank you!
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      Jun 10 2013: I think I may see where the misunderstanding arose. Katz refers to the male perpetrator as being normal in other ways, which perhaps someone might construe as saying that such behaviors are normal for males. I do not think this is where Katz was going. Obviously most males are not violent toward their partners!

      I understood his using the idea of a perpetrator as being "otherwise normal" to suggest that the perpetrator should not be considered an incorrigible psychopath. Rather he suggests that one can work through the culture people are in to effect change successfully.

      I think Tom Peters wrote that we become more and more like the six people with whom we interact most. If this is true, a bystander-type strategy should have some potential in organizations in which people are tightly connected.

      Katz happens to focus on male aggression and works in organizations that involve a high proportion of men. I don't think this suggests that he believes there is no aggression by females. It is just not his particular focus.

      It may be kind of like the way someone's being a grade school teacher doesn't mean she thinks high school is not important, or someone who is an ENT surgeon should not be assumed to believe that orthopedic surgery is not important.

      I did not hear Katz suggesting that bystander interventions would not work for addressing the problem of violence by women- only that he uses them among men. In fact, in anti-bullying programs in schools, we use bystander-based strategies to address bullying regardless of the gender of the perpetrator.
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    Jun 10 2013: I am very surprised TED has allowed this discussion to continue....it does not seem very productive.
  • Jun 9 2013: Dear TED why are you removing my replies? My first reply to Katz with all references and what not has been removed. How can one debate when one is censored?
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      Jun 9 2013: TED admins don't and won't censor you. They do make an effort to delete posts that violate the terms of use. You might want to review your post to make sure you are not making personal attacks, for example, but rather focus on the topic at hand and present evidence on the topic.

      You can find the link to the terms of use on this page to check your post against them before you post your material.
      • Jun 9 2013: Regardless, one is "censored" when your on topic posts are removed. Didnt even get an email about the removal so have no copy of the post. Will have to rewrite it.
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          Jun 9 2013: It's there sandbox, and as such, these comments belong to them.
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    Jun 9 2013: How did TED allow this conversation to be added? Can someone answer that for me. This is so riddle with questionable opinion that one wonders whether to dignify it by engaging in the discussion.

    Please provide the research for your claims such as "homosexual women hit their spouses more."
    • Jun 9 2013: Theodore this is not as way out as it seems. When I was a divorce lawyer I did represent two battered men and several battered women. This is something that will be opinion except we know that about 10% of men often drink too much and at least 10% if women are bipolar. Then there are drunk women, bipolar men etc. etc. There are cultural and religious customs that encourage female dependancy, but that doesn't seem economically possible now. Stereotypes can be misleading. Everyone be nice to each other.
    • Jun 9 2013: Unfortunately cannot locate those studies as of this time. Thaden and Rennon 2000 says 10.5 of women and 15% of men has suffered of same sex violence. However Thaden consistently seem to be skewed in comparison to other studies when it comes to victims.
      The prevalence of partner violence among homosexuals are about the same as heterosexual relationships is the general consensus anyway.
      Biggest issue with regards to these things is that the most studies are targetting lesbians and not homosexuals in general. The same issue exists with hetereosexuals where straight women are the primary targets of research and not both men and women.
      All this skews the data.