TED Conversations

This conversation is closed.

Discussing the fundamental nature of Katz presentation and the validity of the claims he makes in the video.

He makes claims in this video that are false.
His statement and focus on men ignores the fundamental question why do some people abuse other people.
Non-feminist oriented studies made says that women abuse there male partners physically and emotionally to the same degree as men do their female partners and according to some studies even more.
Also there is more spousal abuse in female homosexual relationships than in male homosexual relationships. If the problem is men why do homosexual women hit their spouses more?

What he is doing and talking about makes it harder to help people because what he speaks of is fundamentally false. Perhaps some in the audience work in healthcare system. A woman comes in and has signs of abuse. Shes there with a woman. The nurse/doctor given the myths reinforced by this talk will not think that the woman sitting there with their patient might be the one that psychically abused her.

Also when it comes to sexual abuse etc. at least 20% of the perpetrators of sexual abuse of children are female. Young boys taken advantage of by older women are not seen as victims of abuse but a lot of them suffer psychological effects that lead them to violence and drug abuse.
When college students were asked about if they had sex even if they didnt want to a lot more men than women said they had had sex even if they didn't want to.

When it comes to his "By stander approach", it has not been scientifically evaluated. He has no factual backing if it works. There is no comparatives studies made at all with regards to any of his methods. He has just made the methods up from what I can tell. Hes a good salesman so people buy into the feminism inspired male bashing.

Essentially the video and the presenter lies and/or is totally uninformed with regards to the research that exists, the statistics that are available.

If men are the problem why do women do the same thing? Perhaps its not a sex issue, perhaps god forbid its something else entirely


Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.

  • Jun 9 2013: I think it's important for the TED community to have some context for this reckless and irresponsible post and conversation topic initiated by Andreas N. From the moment my initial TEDXWomen talk went up, the comments section has been overrun by men's rights activists (MRAs) and other aggrieved men who have, in the usual fashion, attacked and ridiculed me, feminists, progressives, and anyone else who doesn't see as clearly as they do that men are the truly oppressed sex-class.

    Again as per usual, my words (and those of women/feminists) have been misrepresented, distorted, and dismissed. Let me be clear: I believe that my work, and the work of feminists more generally, is dedicated to reducing violence and abuse both against women and against men. Much of my work, in fact, (like my first film Tough Guise) is devoted to looking at how cultural constructs of masculinity hurt men. But for the record, my talk was centrally about men's violence against women and children, and the fact that some men are clearly upset by that ("what about all the men abused by women?!") is yet further evidence of some men's discomfort with their needs and agendas not being center-stage 24/7.

    But I can't let some of Andreas's and other MRA distortions go unanswered, especially their repeated (and false) mantra that "women abuse men as often as men abuse women." They typically claim that "the" research "proves this," when it does no such thing. So I have provided links to two articles (there are many more) that survey and deconstruct research on DV and gender symmetry. Of course this doesn't include sexual violence, sexual harassment, and sexual abuse, all of which are perpetrated overwhelmingly (but not exclusively) by men.

    By Michael Kimmel

    By Michael Flood
    • Jun 9 2013: Jackson Thanks for the good talk Looking at your comments above, there is not as much difference than you both seem to think. An objective third observer and former divorce lawyer might suggest that men are larger and can do more damage. To suggest that women shouldn't hit men doesn't make me or maybe Andreas MRA's. That's the beauty of dialogue We can see different views. Yes, I represented mostly women. While I represented some battered women ditto for two men. People should be kind to each other, and one should look at an issue of degree.
    • Jun 9 2013: Thank you, Mr. Katz.
      You know, if every presentation on TED HAD to incorporate every single perspective, every single eventuality, every single statistic, it would entirely defeat the purpose. When I saw your talk, it was clear to me what you were focusing on, which in no way implied to me ignoring any other abusive group!

      I applaud you for your point of view, and for reaching out.
    • Jun 9 2013: Also where is the research that suggest that your By stander approach has any value at all in doing what you claim it do. Have your methods ever been scientifically evaluated?
      • thumb
        Jun 9 2013: Until Mr. Katz gets back to you, here is a link to a fairly recent meta-analytical study of evaluations of interventions to reduce domestic violence. http://www.public.iastate.edu/~ccutrona/psych592a/articles/Treatment%20meta%20analysis%20for%20batterers.pdf

        As you will read, these are interventions directed at people who have already commited domestic violence.
        • Jun 9 2013: My concern was the method he is suggesting, the one he has sold to the US gov and other organizations. That method is not a treatment for people committing domestic violence.
          I know there are treatments for abusers that are effective. In Norweigh they are used in Sweden they are not because in Sweden the cause is said to be men themselves.
      • thumb
        Jun 9 2013: Here is more, perhaps, of what you are looking for then: http://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/part-4-bystander-interventions-violence-prevention
        • Jun 9 2013: Much better. Thats more of what I was looking for. Even better would be if there is any evidence at all that the behaviors change. That is lowering of sexual harassment, rape etc. Not just attitude changes that revert after a few months.
          Telling people its wrong to rape, sexually harass etc is all fine and dandy. But if there is no actual change in behavior then its, in practice, pointless.
          There is already a higher likelyhood that men will intervene when women are hurt. A man hits a woman in a bar. Men react. Woman hits a man in a bar. No one reacts and most likely think he deserves it.
          Also that link also states:
          "A challenge in establishing this is that evidence regarding the effectiveness of violence prevention efforts in general is limited. Few interventions have been formally evaluated and existing evaluations often are limited methodologically or conceptually.[227]"
      • thumb
        Jun 9 2013: Andreas, I am not informed in this field. I looked to Google Scholar, as I often do when someone inquires about available research on a subject on which I am not myself well-versed.

        Here is another resource: http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/17/6.toc

        There are several members of this community who have worked in this or neighboring areas who will be better informed.
        • Jun 9 2013: I have tried to find research my self on the efficiency but not been successful. Thats really how I came into contact with Katz from the get go. He was keynote speaker on a how to prevent violent teenage boys in Sweden. I wondered on what grounds he was invited and got bunch of links to methods but no evidence of their actual effiency.

          I find issue with govs spending money on methods that has not been evaluated and paying speakers to talk on subjects they have no verifiable knowledge of except saying the correct stuff. Sweden is a very feminismdominated country and one of the parties that invited Katz is a radicalfeministoriented group called Men for equality. Though in practice they are not for equality involving both sexes.
    • thumb
      Jun 9 2013: Thank you, Jackson for providing the first link. The second link does not work any longer, I believe.

      One of the values I find in TED Conversations is that participants can come to understand subjects better when those who have delved deeply into a subject share evidence as you have here. You have probably noticed in all areas in life that people often invoke research and statistics that turn out not to exist or that have been misrepresented or misinterpreted either by the person making the post or taking the stand or by the person he/she heard about the subject from..

      I don't think this is always meant badly. It can just be a mistake. Sometimes people, for example, just believe representations made by those they trust. A forum like this one can allow such people to hear more than an insulated point of view.

      In fact, on most subjects, when someone makes claims that don't conform to what can be supported by evidence, this site is active enough that others will come in with the evidence or arguments they have. And those who are interested have an opportunity to follow up on different points of view and the evidence that is put forward.

      Sometimes, of course, people's views and the way they present them are connected to their anecdotal life experience. There are probably people who have been abused in this community, including males.

      As Andreas in his reply to you links to the evidence he finds compelling on these questions, you will be able to flag what you believe is suspect in his sources so he can consider them in that different light.
    • thumb
      Jun 9 2013: Dear Mr. Katz,
      You will note that I asked the same question "How did TED allow this conversation to be added? "
      I will only add this quote by Tony Porter's excellent TEDTalk.

      " The center for disease control says that men's violence against women is at epidemic proportions, is the number one health concern for women in this country and abroad."



      Men are very much a part of the solution as well as the problem.

      Thank you for lendng your voice to these issues, and for all your efforts,

      T A Hoppe
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: Agree Theodore....I do not understand why TED has allowed this discussion to continue. When the facilitator continues to state things like...""almost no men are violent in practice", we can clearly see that he is in total denial of facts.

        Men can indeed be part of the solution, many men have been, and continue to be part of the solution, and I am grateful for that.
    • Jun 9 2013: It does not matter if I am MRA or not. My concern is equality. If women fight as well then how can it be an issue with men and not violent individuals?

      "and the fact that some men are clearly upset by that"
      Some men are upset because you ignore half of the victims and half of the potential perpetrators. That is men as victims and women as abusers. Writing stuff like this is to act in demeaning way towards your critics. That's not exactly a constructive debate is it? You essentially say your opponents are like spoiled children.

      Lesbians fight as well. They suffer from a bad masculinity as well?
      “Gardner (1989) had straight, gay, and lesbian couples rate the violence in their relationship on a scale ranging from 36 (no violence) to 288 (severe violence). The average score for straight was 38.51, for gay was 39.6, and for lesbian couples was 40.22. ” (http://www.psychpage.com/gay/library/gay_lesbian_violence/dv_gay_couples_intro2.html).

      21,8 men, 27,1 women says they'ed been hit by a parter after age 15. 5,6 and 5,7 in the last year. ”Vold i parforhold – ulike perspektiver” (Violence in relationships, different perspectives) 2005, NIBR, http://www.nibr.no/pub100

      "This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: [...], which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600. "

      Your references:
      Kimmel: A biased article in a biased journal. Of course a journal thats titled Violence against women would not publish an article that claims that gender symmetry exist.
      Also the article it self is biased. Essentially it boils down to those that say gender symmetry exist use the wrong tool that is Conflict Tactics Scale.

      Flood: Use the above article as reference. The reasoning is similar as well.
      • thumb
        Jun 13 2013: I provided links to the Center for Disease Control after citing Tony Porter's quote.
        Are they "bias?" You ignore those references.
    • Jun 9 2013: Since you bring up your Tough Guise video. I assume this is on topic and the TED admins wont remove this reply.

      "I believe that my work, and the work of feminists more generally, is dedicated to reducing violence and abuse both against women and against men."
      In practice that does not seem to be the case. You only talk about male perpetrators. Your thesis in Tough Guise is also flawed. If your interested we can discuss that as well. The major flaw is that you take a small percentage of men to be the norm for all men. You also simplify your analysis to be that of masculinity being flawed. The rootcause is never investigated. You have fixated on masculinity not other issue such as socioeconomic factors, psychology, lonelyness, fatherlessness, sexual relationships and what women find intriguing in men and so forth.
      You also ignore the fact that the modern society is the most peaceful society that has ever existed and do not ask the question why.
      The fact that you use movies as the setup for your Tough Guise and completly miss your own reference to the potrayal of chinese as violent in movies and the fact that they committ the fewest violent crimes and crime in general in the US. So the portrayal of men in movies does not affect the behavior of some men.

      Also your reasoning is that the norm equals dominance and that others are subordinated. Such as your example in that video with regards to what do you think when someone says Race, Sexual Orientation or Gender.
      Then you talk about that we talk about female victims and not male perpetrators. However no where in the video do you discuss the fact that almost no men actually commits rape, sexual violence, violence in general etc.
      You claim that masculinity causes violence but present no evidence for this being the case. All other factors are ignored.
      You ignore the fact in forexample the Bobbits that he was laughed at about the fact that a man was mutiliated. A woman being mutilated is never a joke. Latest is The View.
    • Jun 9 2013: Also you even claim that videogames creates violent young men but there is no proof of that. So in that video as in your TED talk you make claims of which you have no basis.
    • Jun 10 2013: The speaker is talking in his own paradigm, he didn't present to speak about the different paradigms in women abuse, so please stop saying that he needs to address the other side of battered woman. That wasn't his point! Also, yes, he uses words that we, as ignorants, feel he shouldn't because of the connotation they carry.... Please look into Sous Rature, the only reason he uses these words is so that we, as a society, are able to understand what he is talking about.
      Please open your mind.
      • Jun 10 2013: Sous Ruture? Hardly. He talks about a phenomenon not just limited to men. Hes talking like most feminists talk its not a tool its how they view the world and the issues in it.
        How we react to women beating men and men beating women. And he says the cause is men and manhood and men should be more involved?
    • thumb
      Jun 11 2013: Jackson,
      SOME of the TED community is aware of this discussion as a "reckless and irresponsible" conversation initiated by Andreas N., who apparently is not willing to look at even the very basic facts. I am very surprised TED has allowed this to continue.

      This was brought to your attention before:
      The second link you provide (Michael Flood) appears not to be available.

Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.