Jah Kable

Thinker ready to be unleashed upon the world,

This conversation is closed.

Is the world really going to sit back and watch as these peaceful protesters in Turkey are attacked by police with chemical weapons?

Peaceful protesters are being attacked with chemical weapons and RUN OVER by swat vehicles. Is this not worthy of help from the world? Is it possible that respect can be worth more than a resource that we readily fight for at the drop of a hat? Why are human rights being ignored? Peaceful protest meets non-peaceful police and the world just stands by and watches. Where is this right? Do our leaders have any morals? We intervene whenever a resource is in the equation.

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    Jun 8 2013: Well, what did you do when peaceful protesters in Montreal were treated in a similar way by police? BTW, this picture is not from Turkey, but from Montreal: http://500px.com/photo/5826643
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      Jun 9 2013: I was not aware of these events otherwise I would have done the same thing I did for the Turkish people. No one should be treated in such a manner and the fact that anyone can do these things to another person is very unsettling to me. What the world needs is cooperation, without that we are all doomed.
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      Jun 9 2013: No one will tell something about it because the media won't amplify it, why ? Simply to keep that nice and sharp picture of the civilized occident who respects humanrights ! SAD
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    Jun 6 2013: Why are the Turkish people fighting?
    http://youtu.be/aEapNRakzDI
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      Jun 6 2013: I just watched the video here: http://youtu.be/aEapNRakzDI and I was deeply moved. Clearly the Islamic leadership in Turkey is trying to take that nation backwards into a more conservative state; one that is more consistent with the misguided ideals of totalitarian control. Here is a link to a document that remains quite revolutionary to this very day. Read it first before you worry about where it comes from.

      http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

      The ideas within this document remain revolutionary. Totalitarian governments hate these ideas. But they tend to be clueless as to how strongly and positively most U.S. Americans feel about it.

      I know little of the actual political forces at work in this conflict, but I am aware of where, when, why, and how student-youth movements have been both influential and successful in effecting significant change. Now is the time for great care and even greater vigilance. Because now is the time when a totalitarian regime, in both perceiving and FEELING the threat --begins to search for justification to increase control. In fact, this process is already a decade old now. So your opponents have a head start.

      And here is an idea for you. Who is it that the State Police of Turkey need fear most? The young man who made this video referenced here? Or the mysterious woman with a bottle of vinegar who helped the young man?
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    Jun 16 2013: Some more ponderings.....................

    Why Turkey's PM is the envy of the dictator class!

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/why-turkeys-pm-is-the-envy-of-the-dictator-class-20130614-2o9lx.html
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      Jun 16 2013: Nice article. THAT seems to explain things. And that seems to answer the questions I asked above. But to what degree do you support the Turkish government, as it is described in this article? And how do you balance that against the right of peaceful protest in a democracy?

      I know it can be annoying for someone to ask too many questions. That annoying habit I retain after 50+ years of hard experience w/it. I learned how to ask (WHY?) when I was about two years old. My late parents were school teachers. And strangely enough, they ALWAYS had answers.

      You've really provoked a deep response here from some of the Muslim observers. I'm curious about that.
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      Jun 16 2013: I'm PUMPED that you posted this Blade Runner!
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    Jun 13 2013: Why would I do anything that could effect my already comfortable life?
    What have the people of Turkey (amongst Libya, Syria, Egypt...) ever done for me? What am I going to get out of helping complete strangers?
    They are Muslim, who cares about them?
    ______________________________________
    Putting aside the common and normal attitudes of the brain-washed masses...

    Now that the news of Turkey is even being publicly shown on our corporate news stations says something, but nothing from the actual station should be accredited as being true. (As using phrases like conservative and liberal to explain a middle eastern countries politics is adequate coverage.) What it says is "the power of the internet is real" and this power allows everyday citizens to be informed.. And while most Westerns pride themselves on believing they are well-informed about global and local issues, the contrary is more evident.

    An outstanding difference between west and [middle] eastern attitudes is the fact westerners are far more individualistic with thinking. Middle Eastern countries have been able to organize and revolt recently because they trust their neighbors far more commonly than we would here in the states. If the U.S ever revolted like one of these countries, more civilians would probably harm other civilians than the military-police would get a chance to - we are a very selfish culture: our entertainment and education system is enough to note here. This attitude needs to be recognized.

    Ignoring Turkey for a moment to look at Syrian Terrorist ("protestors" with guns)... Who happened to be formed by the CIA (who Osama was a member of) like Al Qaeda. There is shadow-government behavior in this world, and it is not bound to American soil. Although protesting is now 'low-level terrorism' right here at home.

    The issue of Turkey, whether you can or cannot help, should be noticed and investigated on one's own terms. In fact, look into why all of the middle east is revolting slowly...
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      Jun 16 2013: OK, I admit to being brainwashed. It keeps things cleaned up inside that vacant space between my ears. I don't consider my cranium to be the equivalent of a hollow tree -- neither bugs nor birds, nor squirrels, nor owls enter to take up residence, uninvited.

      I think there are a great many U.S. Americans who care a great deal about 'Muslim' issues. The events of 9/11 did that for us. The Earth is a much smaller planet these days. In part, 9/11 was a consequence of that.

      Are you informed? Do you claim to be informed? Better to maintain a healthy skepticism and observe events as they are. Draw your conclusions later, when you have more information/facts upon which to decide. Part of my appreciation/debt to Blade Runner (here) is the degree to which he provokes informative responses from others. I see (at least some) of what he sees, here.

      Are you criticizing the U.S. media? Or do you criticize your fellow citizens? If so, on what basis? And if on the issue of "ignorance," I can afford to agree (to a point). But will you offer us an alternative to illuminate that point?

      Who told you that the U.S. is a very selfish culture? And why were you willing to believe them when they said it? http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/15/opinion/bennett-generosity Bill Bennett is a friend of mine. Smart guy.

      Who told you that middle east countries trust their neighbors? And who told you that "more civilians would harm other civilians than the military police?" How old were you when 9/11 happened? Go ask some older person you trust just how MUCH U.S. Americans support one another when confronted by a common threat or shared tragedy! U.S. Americans stand together in ways that I find admirable.

      Watch out for idiots on the internet who will try to get you to believe that the CIA is responsible for 9/11. The hijackers on the plane wanted to kill us. You too if you'd have been there. Check your facts/attitudes and talk to some older folks in your life. Examine all
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    Jun 11 2013: Yes, it always did...
    The world is not any one specific...
    The world is I and you and he and she and we and they and all of us.
    So ask yourself: "Self, are you going to sit back and watch ???"
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      Jun 12 2013: I'm doing what I'm capable of. My voice will not be heard the same as leaders that should be speaking. All I can do is inform. I agree with everything you said too. We need to realize that we are all connected. What happens to one will happen to the next, eventually. Turning a blind eye solves nothing. Picking up weapons solves nothing. I believe helping to understand solves everything.
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        Jun 13 2013: Yes you do, by raising your question here, letting others the opportunity to think and react. Thank you for that.
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    Jun 9 2013: Here we are again Jah with me catching up on your '19 hours ago' which had no reply option...............

    Firstly, suggest we both know that your 'fave' bleeding heart made up fantasy tale is not what I was referring when I quoted Islam's '"Taqiyya and Kitman" and the condoning of lieing to further the cause of Islam. Accordingly I suggest your analogy is a joke.

    And as for your fantasy question...'Do you lie to her or tell her the truth?'.................Begs.....Why do you have to tell her anything at that point?

    And boy is this one piece of dishonest hypocrisy................"Don't tell me about my morals. You are not "God" or anyone that has earned respect from me so you have no right to judge me or any other person here."

    That from the Guy that came on bragging about his 'high morals' now tells us his morals are beyond questioning or discussion.

    Moving along...........................And a 'god' has what to do with this?

    Further Jah...........I don't recall asking for or seeking your respect, nor am I seeking it!

    Also suggest, we ALL have the right (except maybe under Sharia Law) to make whatever judgements we desire just like you have done right here and now and on the events in Turkey.

    And as for this :)...........' I don't think I'm even going to respond to you anymore honestly.'...............Hey Jah, I've had my doubts about you responding 'honestly' ("Taqiyya and Kitman") from the start! :)

    Also suggest that walking away doesn't automatically mean/guarantee/prove that somebody is a 'bigger man'..........could be nothing more than a bit of self serving political maneuvering to save face and try and collect some brownie points from the naive.

    Cheers...............
  • Jun 9 2013: Jah,
    It is such a travesty.
    I came across this just now, a photographer is seeing the mayhem and violence on a daily basis, as it's going n more or less in his backyard. He has shared an incredible number of photos and encourages people to share them, to raise awareness.
    http://petapixel.com/2013/06/09/photog-posts-free-to-share-photos-of-the-turkish-protests-to-help-spread-the-word/
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      Jun 11 2013: It is a shame. As modern and intelligent as we are, most people get some power and all sense and humanity goes out the window. They return a caveman way of thinking "I'm leader. You listen or else. UGH UGH UGH!" We are not naturally aggressive. I don't care what anyone says. Kids don't go around hitting other kids unless they saw it before. Kiddie see, Kiddie do. The cycle of violence and pain just has to stop. It's up to our leaders to make that happen. Citizens have been trying for a long time and always get crushed by gov't or the majority of citizens(who are brainwashed to believe these things are necessary for their survival). World wide cooperation WILL be much more beneficial to us as a species, no matter what corner of the world you're in. I think that the case is, They don't want to listen to a bunch of "hippies". They're too "good" for that. Almost constant war since civilization has modernized is proving that this way isn't working. Everything belongs to everyone. It's just that simple. When that thought is common between all people, We will truly know peace and prosperity.
      • Jun 11 2013: You said it, Jah. "It's up to our leaders to make that happen."
        And when leaders go nuts, the people suffer.

        I heard some updates on the radio this morning, what the people in Istanbul see on the media paints a very different picture than what is going on in reality.
        Propaganda needs to stop!

        This whole thing aggravates me to no end. Ever since 1987, Turkey's membership bid to the EU has been controversial, at best. Clearly, there is polarity in what the people want, and what the leaders want, or rather, are clinging onto, at the expense of the people.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

        Have you seen this?
        http://www.cfr.org/turkey/europe-can-save-turkey/p30903
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          Jun 11 2013: What bothers me even more than the lies about whos attacking who is the fact they keep saying its over a park.... It's over plenty more things than a park. The people just drew the line there. This is all from what I've read from people in Turkey. They are just crossing the line. I don't understand why no one in NATO/UN is looking at twitter or facebook or anything with living people communicating. ALL THE EVIDENCE IS THERE! I think they are waiting for a confession from Erdogan before they do anything or maybe they are waiting for permission from the oppressor Erdogan to come and protect his enemies "the looters". Which were college students and firefighters and librarians and every other job before the protests but now they are looters. If that obvious of a lie is accepted without question I guess I'm Bill Gates son and he hasn't been paying support. That's a logical metaphor. Both are completely ludicrous and are nothing but words out of one persons mouth. Erdogan is going to cause a civil war in Turkey. People say the protesters are 30,000 strong and the city has millions of people. Yes, that may be true. When the real bullets start flying do you think 30,00 is going to increase or decrease? They are fighting for their homes, their city, their country, and their future. The police are fighting for.... pension? I don't even know because they are puppets. They are just doing what they are told like good little pets. Be a man, all of them need to remember they are men NOT SLAVES. Then again they were pepper spraying female students sitting in parks and shooting tear gas at women in dresses.... I don't think she's protesting in this warzone in a dress bro calm down. If I was there watching that firsthand I would be the first to toss a brick because those are all scumbag moves. No excuse for it at all. Orders? Do you have free will? Ok, now have fun rotting in prison for 30k assualt and battery charges, a few murders, attempted murder with tear gas container, ect!
      • Jun 11 2013: The true travesty is indeed, that the people are fighting against the people. The police are brainwashed! Convinced by their superiors, that what they are doing is 'good'.

        Civil war can lead to change, but at what cost??
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          Jun 12 2013: Erdogan have proven that he will not tolerate criticism. He says he openly welcomes it but if he feels it's insulting he will not. He loaded the gov't with his like minded friends and all that opposed him were punished when he got to a level where he had the power to do so. He made examples out of those who opposed him. They lost their jobs, at the least. Some were jailed for their opposition. That is not democracy in any sense. He has let his personality cloud his democratic judgement and actions. Democracy does not rule with an iron fist. Democracy rules with compassion and understanding and a willingness to heed the opinions of those who disagree. I just watched some JFK speeches and he nailed it. Over 40 years ago JFK nailed it. What he warned of is here and in full effect. If we do not act soon, we will all pay the price. All for the wants of a few terrible "people". These "people" are a plague on the world and the examples they set are only spawning more like them. I have hope that good can prevail but like you said "at what cost".
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        Jun 11 2013: Jah . . . I can't get all the way there with the solutions you propose.

        But your basic observations are Right on point! Please do not give up hope. Change is possible. And change will come. Everyone must work together. And everyone must understand the value of peaceful protest. In my lifetime, Dr. Martin Luther King changed an entire generation of indifferent, white, racist men & women (my parents and their generation) into reasonable, concerned, law-abiding citizens. It still took Affirmative Action and other, similar, laws to ensure that racism and prejudice were/are unacceptable. But change did come. And violence was not the way.

        Other than by posting here on TED, and by keeping myself informed on events, I have to admit that I am unsure as to how I might help. Participation in the Vidalia/TOR project surely helps at some level. But beyond that? Who knows? I could write to my Congressman or Senator and hope for something better. But is military intervention really the answer?

        It is very easy to say that this is not my struggle. It is. But as an ignorant foreigner, how likely am I to choose the wrong side? There are nuances and consequences and personalities involved. I know. I have seen that first hand.

        No, on the day that about 500 million people or more all AGREE that change must come, change begins. And change completes very quickly when that many people agree. We just all have to find the one idea to agree upon . . . that makes the change inevitable.
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    Jun 9 2013: Check out this link from Blade Runner. The Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated the Obama White House
    :
    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/muslim-brotherhood-in-white-house-050813.htm#.UbM8N9g2CEQ

    Well, if we just changed one thing on all their resume's: their religion -- they'd all sound like pretty good civil servants. If we changed Islam to "Southern Baptist" across the board then both liberals & conservatives would have no complaint. Then if we made them all white folks from Greece, then none of the tea party would have a second thought about any of them!

    So maybe there is some racism involved? I don't know. You gotta have more to make that kind of accusation stick in any meaningful way. I know, I learned about that the hard way.

    When I was in the military they taught us about spies & stuff like that. But I learned the hard way that you leave that intelligence stuff alone! Trained professionals do that! Both inside and outside the military. Your job in the military is vigilance and doing your duty carefully. No more & no less. Investigation is something else; that's a different animal. And that is where all the questions have to end for me! If they are all hard workers and do a good job, that's fine. And if the FBI checks them out w/all that NSA telephone & internet surveillance, then that is even better. If they go terrorist or anything and start building bombs; I'd bet the FBI would catch them quick!
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      Jun 9 2013: Well Juan................suggest we can't turn them into what they are not and leaving the race card out of the slot and when one stacks the undermentioned on top of each other is there some room for concern............


      http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/muslim-brotherhood-in-white-house-050813.htm#.UbM8N9g2CEQ

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


      Would it perchance beg the question of who's side they are on and which masters they serve?

      Curious...................just asking.
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        Jun 9 2013: Blade Runner, we may agree more than disagree. I wrote this earlier today.

        Is TERRORISM RADIOACTIVE? Is TERRORIST Islam making itself RADIOACTIVE? Will Islam invite its own destruction? Can we avoid WAR?

        I see no fear in the hearts of my Comrades. To quote Vladimir Putin, "They see us as dust."

        They lie to pacify us. Islam permits that. We in all Civilized Nations; We despise liars. If they cannot speak truth as men, & accept TRUTH' as the price of membership in worldwide civilization; I see a very difficult future for them.

        Furthermore, they misinterpret their own willingness to engage in deception and violence as strength. There is a familiar solution for that kind of 'Jihad.'

        There is no longer a legitimate NAZI (Aryan-national socialist) party left anywhere on Earth. There is no conservative 'wing' or liberal 'wing' of the Nazi party anywhere. Adolph Hitler and his ideas were TERMINATED! Japanese Imperialism was TERMINATED! Saddam Hussein & his sons were TERMINATED! The Ba'athist party has been TERMINATED!

        We have proven ourselves. We are NOT the cowards they suspected us of being. We will fight. And for as long as they think they can 1) lie to us; and 2) kill us -They make a serious mistake. Everyone agrees with me on that point. We do not fear death. We will not submit to insanity. And we will fight.

        Only ONE nation on this Earth has ever used Atomic Weapons to end a military conflict. Only ONE. That nation built/tested one nuclear bomb to prove that it could be done. The next two bombs built were used to TERMINATE a conflict. Over 200,000 killed without remorse-2 bombs on Japan.

        The above is horrible to think about: But to quote Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along?" If things continue as they have thus far, one day we will either 1) run out of options, or 2) just flat-out run out of patience. Think about that! Every leader of every Civilized nation does. They do. So should we! Terrorism is Radioactive & poison to all.
  • Jun 7 2013: USA has been doing the work of World Police for decades now. It attacked many countries and killed millions of innocent people. It has in fact acted like an international terrorist. Some demonstrations somewhere should not bother us any more except when crimes against humanity are being carried out. In that case we must first ask for the international trial of American Presidents and members of the Congress who eliminated the Humanity in millions without justification from President Roosevelt to President Obama. Leave Turkey alone, they will resolve their issues amicably. We should trust the democracies of other countries as well.
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    Jun 6 2013: By Jah.....

    10 hours ago: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_Jihad_mean

    "The greatest tyrants today are those who prefer the rule of man over the laws of God (Sharia law). Jihad and the establishment of Sharia law on earth are the only two things which will unite all people, of all races, and rid the world of oppression, poverty and corruption for good."

    Well Jah..................read the Islamic 'propaganda' on that link you put up and the aforementioned is the last para of the post on the link page and as far as I'm concerned Sharia Law is the biggest growing tyranny facing this planet today and anybody advocating Sharia law via Jihad is a terrorist in my book!

    And further suggest your link only gave the 'sugar coated' version of Jihad as opposed to the 'hardcore' version.

    Cheers................
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        Jun 8 2013: Hi Juan......................suggest this covers your concerns ...................

        .."Taqiyya and Kitman"

        http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm
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          Jun 8 2013: I see your point. To quote Vladimir Putin, "They see us as dust."

          They have no concept of how seriously we in the west despise liars. If they can't see at least a 'measured-diplomatic TRUTH' as the price of membership in worldwide civilization; I see a difficult future for them.

          I say more in my post below.
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      Jun 7 2013: That was simply to point out that the meaning of the world is not commonly known and is generally misused and misunderstood. I struggle trying to teach people. That does not mean i hurt or kill them when they do not learn or refuse to listen. I don't commit jihad as you would say. Jihad is simply a struggle outsiders of the religion associate with violence when it is a personal struggle. Psychically, mentally, and emotionally.
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        Jun 8 2013: Well Jah.....I beg to differ with you on that point and suggest the word 'jihad' is quite well known and understood in the West and the West has felt the brunt of Jihad many a time.

        And lets be clear about this.................yes, there is the personal NON violent jihad struggle and then there is also the TOTALLY violent jihad struggle against the non believers.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

        Oh and then we have.....................Taqiyya and Kitman..................

        Like to enlighten our boys and girls herein as to what that entails..............???

        Seeing I detect a hesitancy on your behalf, so let me help out with this link...............

        http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

        Isn't education great! :)
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          Jun 8 2013: "Seeing I detect a hesitancy on your behalf".... I believe YOU took a whole day to respond. That is not my hesitancy sir.
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      Jun 7 2013: I agree. They just never give up.

      The recently released NSA order to collect all data and filter it to find these terrorists will work. It's been going on for over 7 years now and they haven't come to get me yet. I guess I passed the test. :)

      Without communication, there is no Jihad. Without bank accounts there is no Jihad. Without weapons, the terrorist will simply have to go back to beating their wives and rattling their sabres in order to exhort how strong and manly they are.

      The one thing that Islamic don't understand is our commitment to preventing their violence and wife beating from becoming part of the social structure of western democracy. Democratic Jihad is stronger than terrorist Jihad.

      The democratic Jihad being launched by NSA at this moment will demonstrate our commitment, motivation and ability to bring them to their knees.

      Decent honest folk have nothing to fear from this battle that is in full swing and picking up the pace.
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        Jun 11 2013: This is the one i thought was correct
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        Jun 11 2013: This one I KNOW is correct! Thank you John Moonstroller!
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      Jun 8 2013: I see your point. So really? Why should we hesitate? I've always found FEAR to be a great virtue in those who deserve to feel it. And I see no fear in the hearts of my Comrades.

      To quote Vladimir Putin, "They see us as dust."

      They have no concept of how seriously we in all Civilized Nations -- despise liars. If they can't see at least a 'measured-diplomatic TRUTH' as the price of membership in worldwide civilization; I see a difficult future for them.

      Furthermore, they misinterpret their own willingness to engage in deception and violence as strength. There is a solution for that. Yes, I see!

      If you will notice, there is no longer a legitimate NAZI (Aryan-national socialist) party left anywhere on Earth. There is no conservative 'wing' or liberal 'wing' of the Nazi party anywhere. Adolph Hitler and his ideas were TERMINATED! so-to-speak. Saddam Hussein and his sons were TERMINATED! The Ba'athist party has been TERMINATED! in Iraq.

      We have proven ourselves NOT to be the cowards they suspected us of being in Afghanistan. And for as long as they think they can 1) lie to us; and 2) kill us -- I perceive that as a serious mistake. And I think that everyone agrees with me on that point. Although not everyone will say it --

      Only ONE nation on this Earth has ever used Atomic Weapons to end a military conflict. Only ONE. That nation built/tested one nuclear bomb to prove that it could be done. The next two bombs that were built were used to TERMINATE a conflict.

      The above is a horrible way to illustrate my point: But to quote Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along?" If things continue as they have thus far, one day we will either 1) run out of options, or 2) just flat-out run out of patience. And we all need to think about that! I can think of a solution for that. So can every leader of every NATO allied nation. They all see the same problem. Might they one day all see the same SOLUTION!
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        Jun 11 2013: "...We have proven ourselves NOT to be the cowards they suspected us of being in Afghanistan. And for as long as they think they can 1) lie to us; and 2) kill us -- I perceive that as a serious mistake. And I think that everyone agrees with me on that point. Although not everyone will say it -- And I consider myself 'Liberal' in most of my political ideas..."

        There is no mistake if you kill everyone. That way there are no distractors to the event. the winner gets to rewrite history and leave out your part in it

        Of course such mindset could arise again in the future unless satisfactory cleaning methods are used to complete the total extermination.

        Going another way, require we take into our bosom, the ideas and philosophies of the other side. Merge them with our own. Make them brothers and sister of a different ideal.
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          Jun 11 2013: John Moonstroller,

          I reply to your comment at the top of the page. I like your picture. It makes my head itch.
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    Jun 6 2013: You can rob (as bankers have done to all of us), invade other countries (USA in our times), kill (drone attacks also by USA) and genocide (e.g.: as Nazis to Jews and same decade Jews to Palestinians which they STILL are doing) as long as you have the power to JUSTIFY it.

    I'm sorry to say but 'human rights' and 'revolution' are alien worlds to the place we live in.
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      Jun 7 2013: Yup as long as you do it wearing a suit. Sadly, yes those two things are alien to most of us.
  • Jun 6 2013: I find it odd that nobody has pointed this out yet:
    Turkey is a member of NATO.
    And Turkey holds a strategic location in the various ongoing conflicts in the Middle East.
    Given the larger geopolitical environment, I think it's very unlikely that the US or the Europeans are going to take any overt or official action in this situation.
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      Jun 7 2013: Kudos Kevin! A very sad yet valid point to a debate that would not exist if Erdogan police did not attack peaceful protesters. Would you agree that Erdogan needs to be removed?
      • Jun 7 2013: I am not a Turkish citizen, so it is not for me to say.
        A little research shows that he has been democratically elected by the people of Turkey for three consecutive terms. It would be presumptuous of me to say that I know what it good for the people of Turkey better than they know themselves.
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      Jun 7 2013: I think that's a pretty clear picture of things Kevin. No one is going to get involved. Turkey is a modern western thinking country. They have to deal with their people. I assure you if the same thing happened here in the US, no one would invite themselves into our disagreements.

      I wouldn’t want to see my country go up in flames in that way. I would want the government to do something about it. The whole purpose of Democracy is to work things out without violence. Let he who would throw the first stone beware.
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      Jun 6 2013: I confess my ignorance of the language being spoken. But clearly something is happening here to which the U.S. must respond. I'd advise anyone visiting this thread for any reason to watch this video first!
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      Jun 7 2013: Thank you Anon.
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      Jun 6 2013: My theory is that any government that at least claims to be a democracy cannot allow public unrest to reach this level. There will always be malcontents who choose to protest. And that, with varying levels of justification. In the most successful democracies, access to the courts and access to a legal system that can and will act to effect change is critical. For example, the Civil Rights movement as led by Dr. Martin Luther King used both the power of public, peaceful protest AND the power of a just and impartial court system and criminal justice system to force change to benefit all U.S. Americans and African-Americans in particular. I think that President Barak Obama would agree w/me (or I with HIM) on that point..

      In any democracy, the police are obligated to act in the public interest and keep things sane, if not 100% safe.

      By way of one example I've offered elsewhere; here is one example of why governments must occasionally fall. The Romanov dynasty had ruled Russia for over 300 years. At the time of the Communist Revolution in 1917 that dynasty had obsessively preserved an oppressive, feudal system. And that system was a relic of an archaic and primitive past. The Romanov dynasty had simply ignored the democracy movement that had successfully swept across Europe in the preceding 200 years. People just got tired of it. And the rest is history.
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      Jun 3 2013: Yes i understand we can't overstep. People are dying in the streets because of excessive violence by the police. I say that's asking for someone to intervene. The UN needs to apply that pressure because the people are being violently and illegally brutalized in plain sight. There are many videos of a single man being beaten by 3+ officers with night sticks! The man is not even resisting. He is simply trying to escape the beating. This is no longer riot control, THIS IS AN ATTACK ON THE PEOPLE! It has gone on long enough. We are not barbarians and no one should be allowed to act as such!
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          Jun 3 2013: That's very true! The people of Turkey and the world will not forget these events though. They have committed their crimes and must answer for them. I just hope "I was just following orders" doesn't excuse their actions as it has before in history.
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        Jun 5 2013: A single man being beaten by 3 officers with night sticks is a far cry from what's happening in Syria.

        Heck, it probably even happens in the United States every day too...
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          Jun 5 2013: That sadly is one of the less violent things they are doing and Yes those events are tragic as well. I suggest you start a conversation about them and ask for ideas. Thanks for the comment though Mike.
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    Jun 16 2013: Well folks .......................just finished watching the news............

    Looks like the protests are over for now.

    Looks like the park has been cleared of the protesters.

    Saw a public meeting addressed by the prime minister and attended by thousands of Govt supporters.

    And Guys..............lets not forget this is a democratically elected Govt and all the dissenters/protesters can cast their vote at the next elections.

    Isn't that how democratic change works???
  • Jun 16 2013: Hi Nicholas lukowiak
    you dont know anything about moslems,as ,when you were born, you didnt know any thing.
    Im moslem and I dont see any difffrent between you and I.
    and you must know that your government make this bad situation for moslem people,so we dont need the help of humans like you,just perevent your government that they doing.
    we are Iranian and so soon that you cant think it, we will become powerfull,but not like you.becaese my religion said :each human is respectable.
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      Jun 16 2013: Curious here Haman............are you per chance claiming that the US govt organized the Turkish protesters in the first instance to carry out the park protest or are you perchance harping on about the Iranian nuclear program????
  • Jun 13 2013: Right now I doubt your country has a fat lot of resources, you already have one war going!
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      Jun 13 2013: Did i say military? I don't think I said anything about people with guns doing something. :/
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    Jun 11 2013: "I reply to your comment at the top of the page. I like your picture. It makes my head itch."~ Juan

    Это делает мою голову чесаться тоже. lol.
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      Jun 12 2013: I love Google Translate! Not sure how good the grammar or syntax really is. No Russian might EVER say ANYTHING this way. But for the sake of further discussion:

      Некоторые моменты, когда что-то чешется, хороший нуля то, что мы почти все должны помочь себе. Поэтому давайте не будем мир на Земле!
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        Jun 12 2013: It's okay for some languages. Korean and Chines work pretty well. I'm not to sure about Russia. I tried one of those websites where you interface with real people to learn a language. The problem with the Russian sites is they try to get you to marry their sister first. It's the same with people from Turkey, they want you to meet (and, hopefully, marry) their sister. I have a friend who fought in the Turkish, Greek war, around 2009 or so. I think the Turks are cool. Love their ideas about baths.

        Speaking of Turkey, I hear they are talking some sit down and talk about things. Do you think the young Turks will take them up on it?

        Where are you from Juan?
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          Jun 12 2013: I added my location to my TED profile. But don't look for me there. I live in the year 2037 when the asteroid Apophis is parked at the Earth/Moon La Grange point. There is a gold rush to get there & mine. There's platinum & rare earth elements in there. You can buy a good, working Space Suit at Walmart. I wouldn't recommend the Walmart suit for durable use, though it is better than nothing.

          I am from the future, where human cloning is a reality. We have fusion power and AA penlight batteries that are so powerful they put power back onto the grid!

          I know about marrying someone's sister. I only wish polygamy were legal . . . In a world of ten billion people, maybe it should be! Oh wait! In the future it IS legal! Sorry, I forgot!

          There was a Turkish/Greek war back in 2009? Where the hell was I? And HOW could I miss that! I mean -- I'm up here in the future after all! Did you know that Google now has its own Congress . . . . ooooooh!
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    Jun 11 2013: Hi John, I quote you here:
    "Going another way, require we take into our bosom, the ideas and philosophies of the other side. Merge them with our own. Make them brothers and sister of a different ideal."

    But there is another problem afoot here. 'Islam' means 'submission.' 'Islam' REQUIRES submission. And the terrorist faction uses fear to achieve exactly that! They are willing to kill, and they have. That makes them criminals. And it is incumbent upon the rest of Islam to reject the Terrorism and murder. Otherwise their religion is fit only for criminals! What other conclusion is there?

    From what I understand, many already have. But to do so vocally or publicly can risk making one's self a target.

    You say: "Merge them with our own. Make them brothers & sisters of a different ideal." I find that comment very appealing, except that it will never fly with the terrorist faction. They want to inflict Sharia law on all of us and subject us all to an Islamic theocracy. I guess in some ways that is little different from the racist fascism of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. And it took a World War to rid humanity of an entire generation of tainted, poisonous leadership that espoused those ideas with religious zeal. That's a potent analogy to where we are right now!

    Because I am obviously an 'Infidel' . . . or a non-Muslim from birth, I am just another face in the crowd. And were I not 'elsewhere,' I might have been in Boston @ the Marathon in April when the bombs went off. Or I might have been inside the towers when they fell. All of the victims were no different from me. We are all just people, living our lives. And we'd like the opportunity to do that in peace!

    But thanks to that set of peculiar, and insane set of ideas that motivate the Terrorists -- Peace is impossible. Not when a major world religion of 1.6 Billion adherents, espouses the idea that God gives a "Get into Heaven, FREE!" ticket to anyone who commits murder as a suicide Terrorist.
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      Jun 12 2013: Some good points there Juan..................and to add to that..... they are not the slightest interested in assimilating and just create Ghettos of Islam.

      There is no middle ground for them.
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        Jun 12 2013: For reasons that I have seen on TED (lost link) there is hope. Although Islam has 1.6 Billion adherents, not all of them are the "problem children" that I focus on. Fact is, the "problem children" are the handful of Al Qaeda followers with a misguided theology developed by a misguided clergy. A 'small minority' can be managed. But a powerful/influential minority can be much more difficult to control and/or neutralize.

        I have been privileged to meet professionals of the highest integrity -- who were adherents of Islam. I have been privileged to meet any number of Muslims, whose personal values and individual qualities were exemplary. In fact, were I a better man - I would choose to emulate the quality and integrity of their example. And that, without regard for any religious differences between us. I could be Christian or Agnostic or Buddhist -- and the quality/integrity of those I describe here would remain. The goodness of a human being is based in the integrity of their choices. It is what a person does, and not what a person claims to believe that makes all the difference. And the reality of their good example remains. The fact that they are Muslim reflects only their upbringing, the content of their religious thought and the faith of their fathers. Their actions speak volumes.

        If I have made a mistake in any of my comments, I have painted all of Islam with the same brush. And I wish to correct that mischaracterization here. Apparently, that "problem child" minority gets some very powerful support in some very influential circles. I have no direct information on that, but the silence of some on these issues suggests the possibility that there is a lot of intimidation and fear within the Muslim community on an entire set of religious and political issues. But I only speculate on that

        Again, I have no direct information on that. But this explains my observations. I refuse to abandon hope outright. I believe THAT would be the biggest mistake.
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    Jun 11 2013: I'd like to thank Mitch Smith for introducing me to Marian Kramer, Community Organizer from Detroit.
    See her here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDjWvLtQfK4

    I know even more about a Community Organizer from Chicago. He's had some success in leadership here recently. His name is Barack Obama. I think that Barack Obama would view Marian Kramer with both the respect and deference she deserves. I think it must be a "Black Thing" or something . . . but don't mind me. I'm just an ignorant white guy! Never "misunderestimate" Barack Obama. His absent father was a Muslim. And he spent part of his youth in Indonesia. He had playmates who were Muslim. I think the understands Islam much better than anyone gives him credit. And by that, I have faith is HIS understanding of the war on terrorism. I trust him.

    Speaking of 'Misunderestimation . . . " Both George H.W. and George W. Bush are remarkable men. Both evidenced a capacity for thought that was/is much broader than the "Tea Party" or the ultra conservatives realize. After 9/11, the "W" took us to WAR (twice - Iraq & Afghanistan). You cannot fault the Republicans for an inability to directly and aggressively address difficult problems. And after that attack, that kind of direct action was needed. Unprovoked & cowardly attacks tend to motivate us that way.

    I hear what you are saying about "Corporate Fascism." There is a need for change in the U.S.A. Hopefully change will some sooner (NOW) rather than later! But we've created a society here that has a respectable record when it comes to fixing things. It took 100 years and the Civil War to fix slavery. And another 100 plus years to put an African American in the White House. But we do understand change here. And that gives me some reason to hope. What do you think? Hope to hear from you!

    I read your 'solutions.' Thank you for that. It will take more study for me to understand them. Have you considered writing a book?
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    Jun 10 2013: I hope it will, but I'm afraid it won't. I'm from Serbia, almost the same was happening here 10+ years ago, and no one seemed to care. On top of it all, the world media described us as 'crazy serbs' - a nickname which still sticks.
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      Jun 10 2013: Could this be why the nickname 'crazy serbs' still sticks......................??

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Genocide

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_in_the_Yugoslav_Wars

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_war_crimes

      Just asking.......................
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        Jun 10 2013: There was a war, both sides were equally guilty, and as with everything there are two sides of the story. We were cut off, and the world only got to see/hear one side of it - which is what you've so tremendously proven right now with your comment. ;)
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          Jun 11 2013: Suggest that's far from what I've proven!


          And so does..................".We were cut off" = Genocide and ethnic cleansing is Justified and Ok ??
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        Jun 11 2013: Hah! You posted all the links that describe Serbia as the aggressor, proving my point that people usually hear about one side, and then believe in it firmly since they were baby fed for years on such information via media.
        You're putting words in my mouth. I meant that no one bothered to hear the other side. It went both ways. It wasn't like bombing innocent people - it was war, both sides had their armies and losses. The world only got to see what the media wanted them to see - which is why there's so little information on what's been going on in Turkey.
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          Jun 11 2013: Ok, Branislav...........kindly post some reputable links that counter that the Serbs did NOT engage in Genocide or ethnic cleansing.

          If your argument is based on that 'It was war' then on the same token maybe you would like to tell us the Holocaust was Ok because the Nazis had declared war on the Jews?

          And last time I looked ethnic cleansing was all about innocent people, unless being of certain ethnicity deems one 'guilty' of being a criminal.
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        Jun 11 2013: You're clearly missing the point and going off topic for whatever reason. But based on your profile and your previous comments on TED.com I suggest you read http://www.ted.com/pages/conversations_terms before continuing.
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          Jun 11 2013: Suggest YOUR the kid that went 'Off Topic' in the first instance by bringing SERBIA into the picture and now that I took you to task over that point you are starting to cry foul and are intimating I am not playing within the terms of engagement of TED.

          As for any of my previous comments herein....................suggest once I start telling lies or going into personal denigration like some herein have done because I have asked questions, I have no case to answer under the terms of TED.

          However feel free to put on the table for ALL to see wherein you believe I have transgressed and why?

          Oh and while your at it also kindly let us all know why and how my 'profile' (I am assuming you are referring to my avatar) is getting your nose out of joint?

          Cheers................
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        Jun 11 2013: ee, you keep doing it - the point of every single comment I made was the media and their power and yet you tried to turn it into something it's not.
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          Jun 11 2013: Suggest that's far from every single point you made/were making in that it is/was about the power of the media.

          As for the power of the media......................who is doing the protesting, throwing the molotov cocktails, firing the water cannons and tear gas, etc, etc? Certainly not the media.

          http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/11/18895842-turkish-riot-police-fire-tear-gas-in-effort-to-clear-istanbul-protesters?lite

          And lets be totally honest here ............from what I have seen on this discussion forum and others, all Topics flow off on varied tangents due to people mentioning points they feel are related or have a similar basis (just like you did with Serbia)...................and yes that then can further flow/develop along certain lines that the initial poster had not hoped for ..........ala You, when you mentioned Serbia and I took your 'crazy Serb' comment down another road, which it appears it turns out you find/found unpalatable.

          "You can argue interpretations.................
          But you can't argue the facts.......................... "

          Cheers....................
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    Jun 9 2013: Some-times, a question can just be answered by other wuestions!

    you asked: Why are human rights being ignored? Peaceful protest meets non-peaceful police and the world just stands by and watches. Where is this right? Do our leaders have any morals?

    Let me ask you please :

    People are dying from hunger all over the world, especially in Asia and Africa, don't they have the right to live ?
    Kids in many contries suffer from deseases eradicated from the occident centuries ago, wouldn't be moral to help them cure ?
    In Syria people are getting killed with all kind of weapons everyday, Is this not worthy of help from the world?
    The war crimes commited by, USA, GB and other contries in Iraq, Afghanistan, are they moral ?
    In Palestine, in Gaza ..... do I really have to tell what's going on there ?

    Billions of dollars that can help making people's life better around all the world are being wasted on wars, Oh wait, saving the world from the islamic terrorism is most important! isn't it ?

    I'm a muslim, and it just tears me apart to see how you guys are misled, and how you look to us as terrorists or that islam is calling for terrorism. For god's sake, France helped Mali against Jihadists, this is good. But they're also calling to arm Syrian rebels who are calling for an Islamic governement ! what a coincidence!

    When an American soldier get killed in a battelfield he's a hero and of course killed by terrorists who are in fact resisting that foreign invasion. But when 50 innocent citizens get killed in an american raid, it's just a mistake !

    When a muslim woman is forced to hide her hair it's a flagrant violation of her rights, when an american single mom is getting kicked of her house because she couldn't pay the bills it's just LAW!


    Briefly, we live in paradoxal world where everyone is misled, we're not free man, we're being watched by them, manipulated.
    • Jun 10 2013: You say we don't understand muslims, that we are misled. The very difference of Islam from western culture or democracy is at heart. We tend to believ in a seperation of church and state, while islamists believe church and state are one. Islam aims to take over the world for Allah by establishing a world wide caliphate, that is ruled by sharia law, we want no part of that. Killing or subjugating infidels comes into this also but enough is enough. I do not want to see any innocents killed or tortured, but when the people assist terrorists in hiding, or do not openly fight them, they become targets. War crimes? I think that word is a little harsh, Iraq and afganistan both had governments that condoned killing innocents, where was the outrage? Why didn't islam do something about that? In my opinion religious morals are comparable to the KKK in this country where the only morals that count are the ones that get your group ahead.
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        Jun 11 2013: Timothy -- I agree with most of your comments except for one thing. War is war! And every 'Jihadi" who fights with a gun or bomb or suicide vest understands that this is a war. No one in the U.S. want civilian casualties. But when you fight an enemy that prefers civilian casualties (like on 9/11) you have to strike a balance. You MUST take the fight to your enemy. You cannot sit back and let civilized and peaceful nations be threatened. This is a war. We are fighting an insane enemy who has no respect for the rule of law. And there just isn't much else we can do beyond what we are doing. Law enforcement and the police can only do so much. The rest will be settled on the battlefield. And that battlefield will not be in Detroit or Chicago. Look elsewhere for that.

        The U.S.; the U.K. & all of NATO, we know how to fight war and win. No one believes, even for a moment, that the terrorists will succeed. And if there are consequences in defeat to the followers of Islam, then so be it. We are not in this to protect anyone's religious views. We are in this to preserve Religious FREEDOM for each to worship God in their own way.

        Unfortunately, Wahabbi Islam does not recognize religious freedom. There is very little of what we in the West respect as 'human rights' --- that will be preserved in the Caliphate that the Terrorist Muslims hope to achieve. And there, is the problem.
        • Jun 11 2013: Juan, the terrorists have already won a victory, they have changed our world and managed to take away our freedoms. I was in the military, and yes, if they play by the rules we would win. They aren't playing by the rules.
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        Jun 11 2013: No, they aren't playing by the rules. Our leadership knew that on 9/11; & (I believe; our leadership) has not forgotten that. So what is our response? Invasion! And why not, when 2996 people died in an unprovoked sneak attack against us. Go camp out in their back yard! Take their territory away from them. Conquer them.

        Now, in dealing with Terrorists, it gets a bit more complicated than that. But you don't hear much about Iraqi -Al Qaeda anymore. Iraq is now one of the most peaceful places in the middle east. I doubt that it is less peaceful than either Jordan or Saudi Arabia. I believe in progress; but like everyone else -- you listen to the news; read what's on the web; and draw your own conclusions.

        If I was from an Islamic nation & was told to 'pick one side or the other,' I'd bet on the U.S./NATO. You still hear about 'Green on Blue' violence. But not-so-much about pitched battles between hundreds or thousands of troops anymore. Nor do you hear about coordinated attacks like 7/7 (London) or 11-M (Spain) anymore. Yes, there was the Boston Marathon bombing. And that is a Big issue for the U.S. Home-grown Terrorism is a major threat. But Osama Bin Ladin is gone!
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      Jun 11 2013: The United States of America did not start this war. The United States of America never wanted war. And the United States of America wanted only to live in peace with people everywhere. The overall goal is that all nations will be self-determining. All nations will be ruled under just law. And basic human rights will be preserved universally. This is a very simple set of concepts.

      You complain about American Raids in one place or another. But do you realize that those drone attacks and raids are carefully planned? And from the beginning, the plan is to AVOID civilian casualties. That has always been true. And where that broke down, the military people involved were prosecuted as criminals for disobedience to the orders and instructions they were given.

      You say: "The war crimes commited by, USA, GB and other contries in Iraq, Afghanistan, are they moral ? In Palestine, in Gaza ..... do I really have to tell what's going on there ?" But do you even KNOW what is going on there?
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    Jun 9 2013: I have started a new debate... FYI...
    (I will be trying to feed it with new "fieldwork"...
    http://www.ted.com/conversations/18861/turkish_uprising_and_what_the.html)
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    Jun 9 2013: I really want to 'PLEAD for HELP' on this one! Moments like this, I just assume that EVERYONE at TED (YOU guys with all the money!) are WAAAAY smarter than me on an issue this important. But the longer I look at it. And the more I see 1) silence on the part of average Muslims; 2) And duplicitous "Double-Speak" upon the part of the Islamic leadership . . . I worry. Maybe it's just because I'm a Christian? Maybe it's the limitation imposed on my thinking by my conservative Fundamentalist upbringing? Maybe it's because of my past willingness to vote Republican? Maybe? Maybe! Maybe!

    Islamic Terrorism is RADIOACTIVE! Am I wrong about that? Isn't that both a fair & reasonable question to ask? Terrorism is RADIOACTIVE! Yes, it's inflammatory, but so is TERRORISM! And how long will it be before anger & outrage overcome restraint!

    We were VERY willing to fight two world wars to clean up the distorted thinking of an entire class of world leader. Today, Japan is perhaps the most civilized and peaceful nation on Earth. I see that as leadership. Today Germany is once again a nation of Philosophers, Scientists, Engineers, & Poets. I also see that as leadership. But it took a lot of death and destruction to rid ourselves of what was once quite poisonous leadership.

    Are we headed that way again? When a certain 'sect' of Muslim leadership speaks of 'Jihad' are they talking about killing us? Are they delivering us an ultimatum? That is: "Either SUBMIT to Islam and the Islamic Utopia of Peace on Earth -- or live in fear of death & die!"

    Do they really NOT understand how unwilling we are to tolerate that? And given the history I recite above, what makes this set of poisonous ideas any different from those others. Islam needs to rid itself of an entire class of poisoned leadership. If they won't or can't do it for themselves, History itself provides a hard lesson. There is an alternative! We do not fear WAR, but we hope for peace. Can there be hope?
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    Jun 8 2013: I guess the initial protesters were peaceful and police heavy handed. Interesting how this violent response to a protest about building a mall in a park has turned into something more.

    From the outside it looks like a culture clash. Muslim authoritarianism versus those supporting a secular state and resent or fear Islamic and sharia laws being pushed.

    It is one of the ironies of democracy that the people can vote for communists, fascists, dictators, and those supporting the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate.

    I just hope they have a strong enough secular constitution and independent courts and fair elections etc

    Even the US with a constitution prohibiting the state establishment of religion there is an ongoing battle between Christians and secularism.
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      Jun 9 2013: Obey one thing I sarcastically love about the US gov't is... What do you do before you say anything in a court room? Swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth SO HELP YOU GOD? while your hand is on a bible. There doesn't seem to be much separation between church and state to me.
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        Jun 9 2013: At least there is some............and lets face it, most is just 'window dressing'!

        There isn't any of the Middle Eastern fanaticism except for a minority and they don't deal in wholesale deception and lies!
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        Jun 11 2013: Not all courts use a Bible. In fact, very few do. And the the words "So help you God" are not always included. Bottom line is, you lie -- you commit a crime. All crime has to be proven, but a lie in a court of law is a prosecutable crime.

        Blade Runner was thoughtful enough to teach me something about Islam & lying (under circumstances) & Islam & social forgiveness. We don't agree in all aspects, but my level of concern is appropriately raised.

        If you look @ my post above about "is TERRORISM RADIOACTIVE?" I have honestly begun to doubt that a world war can truly be avoided. We had to wipe out the entire industrial might of Germany and use nuclear weapons on Japan. THAT is what it took to eliminate an entire class of Fascist leadership in both countries. Out of that, an entirely new class of leader arose with values & priorities that were a good match with Democracy and Capitalism. We can hope for something like that to emerge out of the 'Arab Spring' but will it? I don't think so.

        If what I see here on TED is TRULY what the average Muslim believes, then it might not be possible to avoid another world war. And that war will be very brief if the provocation is adequate. Another 9/11 attack (or a successful nuclear 9/11 attack) I can guarantee that our leadership will not hesitate to retaliate. I strongly believe that next time we will know what Islamic states are involved. And . . . well . . . I already explained myself above.
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          Jun 11 2013: Every court I've been to has a bible and the god part. Maybe it's just a NY thing. I'm not sure just always had me wondering.
  • Jun 8 2013: Everything you see abroad is not like what happens in Turkey. Yes, this protests began peacefully for one of the smallest park in Istanbul in which government tries to rebuild a historical barracks. Perhaps at second day police attack can be regarded violent (actually it is not as violent as happened in developed countries).So far you are right but after the second day especially provocateurs have taken the place of peaceful protestors and after 9 days three citizens died, a policeman was killed by being thrown to a construction zone and a street urchin was thrown from a bridge by these protestors! In Ankara a Turkish flag was tried to be burnt, the damage is almost 40 million dollars, these damages are caused by burning the buses, disassembling the paving stones, damaging to public institutions and so forth.
    who can say that these protests have occurred in a democratic way, can you do that in the USA, Britain or Germany. Several foreign agents are said to be in the protests. Some people were given money to take place in these actions. Protestors are tried to pit against the police, although they are all citizens of the same state. A big game is playing in the Middle East. you can find it difficult to understand but these region can not be left only to people's hands due to its geopolitics.
    Police has never used any chemical weapons, or the PM does not try to be dictator, the vice president apologized from the peaceful innocent people who had hurt by the police attacks. the policemen who acted illegally have detained.
    The exact intent behind these protests are preventing Turkey to develop more both politically and economically. A group of people, supposedly the representatives of the protestors, declared that they also dont want a third bridge (very urgent for the traffic of the Istanbul), a big airport (if it can be build, it will be the biggest airport in the Europe) and like that. Can you think that the concerns of these events are only a small park?
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    Jun 8 2013: Notice.................'Comment deleted'........under one of my posts.............would that be you Jah or the "establishment'? ;)
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      Jun 8 2013: Hi, Blade Runner. People cannot remove other people's comments on the site. A person can remove his own or an administrator can.

      Members of the community can only flag a comment for an administrator to review.
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        Jun 9 2013: Thanks Fritzie and just so you know Blade Runner I did neither. The only comment of yours that I've flagged is the one about cotton. :D
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    Jun 8 2013: "Is Terrorist Islam RADIOACTIVE?'

    Please read my other posts on this thread on that topic. I was responding to Blade Runner.
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    Jun 8 2013: ROFL.............RE: this pithy response Jah.............

    "15 minutes ago: "Seeing I detect a hesitancy on your behalf".... I believe YOU took a whole day to respond. That is not my hesitancy sir."

    Well Jah some of us lead lives that entail more than hanging out in chat forums trying to stir up support for issues in ones 'left behind homeland' while one lounges on the comforts of the good old US of A.

    For the record (not that it is any of your business Jah)....................I've been out of town for a day or so on some business and logging onto this forum and responding to you wasn't/isn't on my priority list. lol

    But hey Jah that 'hesitancy' bit I was referring to was my assumption to your response on.................. ""Taqiyya and Kitman"

    So Jah................ will you be giving us the 'sugar coated' version of ""Taqiyya and Kitman" or just ignore it was ever mentioned?


    Cheers...........................
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      Jun 8 2013: XP I'm actually all American but that was good about the "left behind homeland" bit. You see the thing is I have morals that don't have price tags attached to these morals so anywhere i see wrong i do what i can. As for the sugar coated blah blah Yeah I'll keep believing that, notice they are being deceived and face persecution for their religion. That is why they can lie and it is not a "sin". Sometimes it is necessary to lie when dealing with ignorance.
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        Jun 8 2013: Thank you Jah for letting us know that your morals encapsulate that its Ok to lie!

        Suggest anybody that claims its ok/condones/accepts lieing as acceptable, has no claim to any morals/morality and is just self-serving their own interests!

        Further...........suggest such people shouldn't be trusted any further than they can be kicked!

        I'll remember to look out for my head!

        Oh and who is being deceived and facing persecution for their religion...............and where?

        Oh and what IGNORANCE specifically are you referring to? Not accepting Islam perchance?

        Cheers................................
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          Jun 9 2013: I'm only going to respond to the one thing I really care about.
          When you think of lying you think of doing it to serve yourself. Your mindset leads you to that. When I think of lying I think of doing it to protect someone else. My mindset. Lying in necessary in some situations. Specifics... I'll use one of my faves for you.
          Your brother dies in a car crash. Your mom is in the hospital already sick and fragile. She doesn't know your brother died yet. Telling her such horrific news in her state could, literally, kill her. Do you lie to her or tell her the truth? I would lie in that situation. What does that say for my morals now that you see why I would lie? Don't tell me about my morals. You are not "God" or anyone that has earned respect from me so you have no right to judge me or any other person here. I don't think I'm even going to respond to you anymore honestly.
          Whatever you were saying about deleting a comment just so you know that wasn't me. I did not even know I could delete another users comment. My screen only says reply.
          Here's to being the bigger man and walking away. :D
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    Jun 8 2013: Quoting Jah:

    20 hours ago: They used chemical weapons like i said which you claimed was wrong, then Jimmy proved you wrong. As for everything else......................=D

    Yeah, so what has that got to do with your claim that I was claiming 'I was flawles"? As I said I never claimed I was flawless!

    As you activists/protestors also don't like riot police, rubber bullets or water cannons either......................

    So like to tell us how the Govt should of handled the protesters, besides giving them carte blanch?
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      Jun 8 2013: What I think about what they should have done does not even matter. I would not have done anything they did. I would not have suggested anything they did. It's pretty easy to go from a protest to a riot. The actions they took ensured that that, in fact, is what happened. They also took calculated, planned actions to hide their response to the protests. This all points to being in the wrong, First respond with violence or aggression, second limit communication and discredit/slander the opponent, third break their will with whatever it takes.
      I don't believe this is how things are supposed to work in democracies.
      What would you have done to handle the protests?
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        Jun 8 2013: Firstly..................you come out with this.................'What I think about what they should have done does not even matter.'

        And then this.....................'What would you have done to handle the protests?'

        Which begs the question if what YOU think doesn't matter why would it matter what I think and accordingly why bother asking me????????????????????????

        But seeing I have no qualms and the balls to give you my 'modus operandi'..........well I would have done nothing until the protesters caused civil unrest/disturbed the peace/disrupted the well being of peoples lives and then after asking them to discontinue and disperse and they failed to do so I would then advise them I would be sending in the water cannons if they persisted in those activities.Accordingly if they persisted in those activities and I then had sent in the water cannons the outcome thereof would be on their heads.

        Suggest kinda the opposite to your (in my opinion) gutless approach where you want SOMEBODY ELSE to sort out the situation with you being the 10% man having brought the situation to some peoples attention because lets be honest here..................YOU don't have the whole world listening to your ' Why isn't somebody caring about this issue'?

        And then you cry us a river because you perceive the masses on this forum don't get fired up and your 'ego' feels deflated because you can't inspire the multitudes.

        Have you come here for forgiveness?
        Have you come to raise the dead?
        Have you come here to play Jesus?
        To the lepers in your head?

        Cheers........................
  • Jun 6 2013: You want a no fly zone? UN monitors on the ground?
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      Jun 7 2013: I don't see how a no-fly zone would help anything.
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    Jun 6 2013: As you might have noticed I have changed my name and avatar because police is tracking people on social media and arresting them...
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      Jun 6 2013: https://www.torproject.org/ This link can help keep you safe!

      Here is a link that can help with that. And any 'TEDster' who want to help would be well advised to check that out. Before the TOR project went public, it was a governments sponsored project of the U.S.Navy Research office. It's one of those things left-over from the Cold War. But unlike nuclear weapons, the TOR proxy server promotes freedom over fear.

      Also, for the paranoid, privacy-obsessed, conspiracy theorist(s) - TOR works for that too. People in mainland China use TOR to communicate w/family & friends all over the world. And that system keeps a great many people in circumstances like yours SAFE! There are videos on the web site and instructions for use. Be careful. Stay safe.
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    Jun 6 2013: Yes
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    Jun 6 2013: It's amazing how many people will see bad things happening and turn a blind eye. Just remember when you're in the position of needing help and no one comes to help you. Utopia is possible, just not with a mindset of selfishness and greed. Utopia mainly requires cooperation, mutual responsibility and trust. Some things that are rare in people these days.

    "All humanity is one undivided and indivisible family, and each one of us is responsible for the misdeeds of all the others. I cannot detach myself from the wickedest soul." - Ghandi
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    Jun 6 2013: Jah.

    When you start talking of violating the right of sovereignty of a nation, you are also talking about the erosion of your personal sovereignty.

    If some knight in shining armour goes into Turkey and skewers the violent police on his shining spear of justice - you will not have grounds to complain when you find yourself impaled on that lance when it comes for you.

    The unrest in Urban Turkey was engineered by US neo liberalism.

    Doctor heal thyself.
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      Jun 6 2013: Rationalism states that the sovereignty of a nation-state may be violated in extreme circumstances, such as human rights abuses.
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        Jun 6 2013: Here's a document that confirms your assertion here above:

        http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

        I find it kind of nice how that works out! And thanks for the thumbs up!
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          Jun 11 2013: Reflex flag-waving is not all that impressive. There is a higher document signed by most nations at the UN. For what it's worth.

          THe developments in Turkey are well known to me - my Turkish relatives have been giving me understanding of how the secular Turkish government was undermined by events in the gulf and US interference which allowed the mullahs to re-establish their grip on Turkish government and assertion of fundamental religious agendas.
          The oddity is the co-insurgence of corporate dispossession of the Turkish urban commons - it is this unholy alliance that has precipitated the current violence.
          Have a look.
          I say again - you who are diseased have no claim to the surgeon's scalpel.
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          Jun 11 2013: @Juan re post below:

          To "fix" terrorism is to stop creating it. That's the answer to both #1 and #2.

          I don't command facts - they are public domain - if you bother to get them.

          You are at more risk than you imagine - you really aught to look at this:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDjWvLtQfK4
          ( I know it's a long presentation - but it's worth hanging in there to see the guts of this monster close-up)

          What is going down in Turkey is already ready to happen in the USA.
          The best we can do is to give solidarity to the Turkish protesters - perhaps by funding, but also by spreading the protest to your social media and streets.
          The other part is to watch closely how the Turkish fascist regime goes about its ugly business - because you will be prepared for your own struggle against your own fascism.

          If you think that you are immune to the dispossession, then think again - the walls will not be high enough to keep out the outrage of the dispossessed. And no country under corporate fascism is immune - even my own.

          We all need to watch and learn.
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          Jun 11 2013: And solutions?

          absolutely - I have a few ideas, but solutions must come through getting the ideas of many and putting a structure under them.

          For one - the constitution of corporations must be mandated to include liability for externalities. As it stands, corporations are programmed to be psychopathic - the basic profit motive excludes compassion.
          For two - the design of the operation of money has to be fixed. As is stands all quantative easing is done through debt - no money is currently created into the economy except by loan defaults. THis is not obvious, but all the evictions from the sub-prime are actually creating money - all loan defaults leave currency in circulation that cannot return to the banks - it is where all the deflation is being corrected, and relies on cutting-off the life supply of victims - it is a form of mass-murder.
          The capitalist solution to running an economy on zero-sum(plus usury) debt is by increasing turnover of debt-capital - and the limits are reached - all that remains is dispossession or hyper-inflation.
          For 3: the outmoded model of the invisible hand as a religion must fall. What Adam Smith revealed was simply one emergent property of a chaos system - he did not see all the others, and very few economists even admit they exist .. but they do.
          FOr 4: the role of the state only works when the state is formed as representation of the voters. As is stands it is no more than a choice of dictators to occupy the primary power niche of the nation. Corporation has seized it - and corporations are all national-socialist organisations serving the corporation as nation - at best they are feudal.
          For 5: People must re-learn that what they work for gets their strength - and that the choice must be empowered. There is a massive difference between job and work - job is for money, work is for life. We need to re-learn that distinction.

          What are your ideas?
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        Jun 6 2013: Yup, what Jah said!
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        Jun 11 2013: The terrible sad thing is that what is being played out in Turkey right now is likely to happen in the USA very soon - it happened in the 60's and it happened before then and it will happen again.

        By your reasoning I should urge my government to come in and destroy the USA to save the street protesters you kill, maim and pepper spray into political oblivion. Occupy is just the start.

        I am sorry, a document of rights is a sop to the deluded.

        Fix USA before you go off to fix Turkey.
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          Jun 11 2013: Well, I mostly know better than to argue with that. Perhaps you command the facts and I merely rearrange the wax fruit?

          Two questions: 1) How do we fix terrorism? AND 2) What should have been the correct response to the events of 9/11.

          I'm not just tossing that out to put a cramp in your brain. I really do want to know. We get a lot of "Wave the flag & salute for heroism" stuff going on here from time to time. Some of that is important. Some of that not so much. I might as well ask to be informed by your enlightened perspective. And you make predictions. Any solutions to go with those predictions?
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          Jun 11 2013: Yup the USA def. has it's problems Mitch. I can't even say what i want to say because it will just come off as "conspiracies". I really do agree with you though. We definitely needs some maintenance ourselves but that has never stopped us from playing world police. We put ships in hostile water and expect them not to be torpedoed, we fly planes over hostile countries and expect no retaliation, we put troops down where they have business being then say we were attacked. The USA is unbelievably good at provoking hostile actions and twisting the stories that follow. The cost of these planes we got... is ridiculous.
          These are the new fighters we're about to buy. Should be the standard plane by 2015. Each one cost a little more than $150 million, and if you multiply that by the around 2400 they are projecting to buy.......That come to a little over $360 BILLION! And I thought we were in a recession. The current debt is around $16 TRILLION and about 30-40% is gov't.
          For the Planes.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II
          For the Debt.
          http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/
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        Jun 11 2013: Hey Jah,

        We are in it all together.

        All I'm saying is that the best way to help the protesters in Turkey is to carry their message to our own countries where exactly the same injustices thrive.

        I look to the USA because the USA is the power and all things have to happen there before any other country can do it. I mean .. we will anyway, but if it gets won in the USA, then there's hope for victory here - and in Turkey.

        Apart from that, we could drop some donations on the Turkish protesters to help them stay mobilized. They are on their own ground and know what the details are.
        For this country we are about to elect the greatest fascist ever born on planet earth and there will be so much violence before the voters wake up to what they've done. It's self preservation on my part to hope and pray for some real leadership in the USA to give us hope for our own futures.
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          Jun 12 2013: I don't have hope for any leader in the USA. No matter what they say when they are up and coming, they always change when they receive the power they desire. Obama did it. Bush did it. Everyone does it. And as for the rare few that don't.... We all know what happened to JFK and Lincoln. They paid the ultimate price for trying to better the world. Before JFK was shot he said this-
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xhZk8ronces
          I believe this is exactly what is happening today in the USA. The things he warned of are happening now. It pains me to think this man paid his life and people just nodded and forgot. I just noticed things he said line right up with things I personally regard as laws to myself and my actions.

          "An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." -JFK
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        Jun 12 2013: The USA produced Kennedy and others like him. Those kind of people are one in 300 million or more.
        There are 7 billion of us - good people exist.

        The thing is that we are born into ignorance and it takes half a lifetime to even begin to get our noses above the mud.

        It just has to be that way because we can do little more than play the game as we find it - our survival is touch and go every single day, and there's precious little left over to stand back a little and see wtf is going on.

        Robert Sapolsky tells us that lower primates such as baboons need only 2 hours per day to satisfy their daily needs. What is it that humans did wrong that we work dawn til disk, and beyond, just to keep a roof over our heads and a crust in the mouths of our children?
        It is the big lie - when I was employing people, I was not permitted to hire a single soul if the company did not gain 9 tenths of the surplus of their work. They get 10 cents in the dollar on their own lives and have no time at all to stand back to see what's going on.
        We are less than baboons. But we can be so much more.
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          Jun 13 2013: And that is exactly the system of "behind the curtain" slavery we live in. Most people don't know they are only getting 1/10th. They think they got it good because they are getting by. I don't work and that is one of the reasons why. I refuse to support that system in any way. Don't get me wrong I'm not lazy and I do want to provide for myself and those I care about BUT I'm not going to lick boots for that 1/10th. I was taught to get respect you must give respect. so I do and when If don't receive it back... I'm done. That is one thing I will not tolerate at all. I had a job in a warehouse doing sanitation. My boss always got on me about staying 15 minutes late because I wanted to make sure my job was completely done. He also liked to ask me to work 10-14 hour shifts when other people fucked him over and didn't come in. Keep in mind that I was making less money than the people that were calling in regularly. I asked for raises and told them why I deserved it and continually heard no. When I finally did get a reason for the denials, it was "You can't just keep asking for a raise and expect to get one." I was hired for sanitation at the warehouse, yet I was covering forklift drivers shifts and I wasn't doing enough. Forklift drivers are part of a union and made literally more than twice what I did. That's unacceptable to me. I never heard a complaint from my boss either. I never told him no until i repeatedly heard it. I remember days I went to work at 7am and didn't walk out the door til 9pm. I still can't believe that sh*t. Ever since then I've had no desire to impress any employer. I'm quite sure of the treatment I'm going to receive so whats the point of going above and beyond when you're treated like you're below and behind. A simple truth I like to follow is "You get what you give." I've given and given and received the minimum consistently. Now that is what I give, to the system at least. Things like this I give my all because it's the right thing to do. =D
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        Jun 14 2013: Well .. that's why I developed my slogans : "Abandon your job take up your work".
        Job is for someone else, work is for life.
        Whoever you work for gets your strength
        If you work for money, money gets your strength.
        etc etc.

        Living in ignorance these truths are very quickly crushed into perpetual discontent.
        But to regain these truths, one finds that the truth is still more powerful than the lies we are forced to eat.
        When you find your work, everything just falls into place so you can do it. And you find that you can even take a jobe to finance your work - and that removes the sting from the pain of being a job-slave .. because you will leave the job the instant that your work is satisfied - and that subjugates job into your work - you gain mastery of your own life.

        Once you get your work .. man .. it's almost like magic .. alltrhose others doing their work start coming out of the woodwork and you find yourself in the real community .. the real economy .. and there's your behind-the-curtain reality .. and it does not even have to hide itself.
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    Jun 6 2013: Hi Jimmy...........there was no reply option to your.........' You have 5 "don't"s and two "do"s on what you're making. do you think that the things you do makes up all the needed aspects for humanity go around?"

    So I've gone back to the top............

    Like to tell me what you believe are..................."all the needed aspects for humanity go around' .... and we'll roll on from there.

    Actually this should probably be a new thread/topic.

    Cheers...................
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      Jun 6 2013: What you do to get it nice and in line (as far as it can be) is to answer to the closest reply option that is on the same thread, at least it's how most people seem to do it if they don't wish to make a new post.
      Anyway, it's unimportant.

      It should be a new topic, but I seriously doubt that there's any chance of coming to any form of conclusion on that topic.

      Let's simplify. You say that the things you do are: Pay bills and taxes and put food on the table, a quite ordinary life. You don't say what you do to pay those bills or buy that food. Do you kill replicants for a living or do you say farm ecologically to make a living? Do you see how there's a difference in what way you're contributing to the world?
      Now the market for killing replicants isn't that big right now so you probably do something else, does it benefit humanity other then through tax income? if it does benefit (war benefits the victor) the world does it do more harm then it does good or are you on the general plus-side?

      Now, manufacturing cars might be good for humanity, if those cars are safe and efficient and don't cause other problems (such as environmental when getting the resources) but there are a lot of cars that you can be producing today that on the whole isn't good for humanity.

      I used to work in a toy warehouse and you might think that that's nice, providing kids with fresh new toys to play with. I however had a problem with this, I wasn't working in a war factory but those toys were probobly more damaging to society then beneficial. Because they we're often made by slaves, had gender roles designed into them and caused parents to work extra to buy them instead of being home

      So I can't tell you all the needed aspects, my point was to clarify to you that everything would not be fine if everybody did what you did, or what anyone else does for that matter. We need diversity and that diversity should have the clear goal of benefiting humanity (in the long term) as much as possible.

      Cheers
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        Jun 6 2013: In some places the military exposes the new recruits to tear gas briefly. It motivates the new guys to learn exactly how to put their gas-masks on properly. They do the same thing at the Police Academy. And believe me, you are correct --TEAR GAS really is a Chemical Weapon.

        Just like Water-boarding is torture!

        But more on Topic, is Jah Kable suggesting that the protesters just diall "9-1-1-U.S.A." and expect defensive aerial drone strikes to keep them safe from the POLICE? For those who don't know, if you dial 9-1-1 on a telephone in the U.S., you are connected with a Police/fire/ambulance Emergency dispatcher; "State your Emergency, please!" Is this conversation a 9-1-1 call for U.S. military intervention?

        After the lessons of Vietnam, the U.S.A. has gotten a bit more cautious about that kind of thing. And the Turks are generally reliable allies in the eyes of most of the rest of the world. So this has the look of an internal matter. And 'external intervention' only creates more problems rather than actually solving the problem that started the protest in the first place.
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          Jun 6 2013: I think that no one was expecting a 911 call (although it would have been fun if every Turk dialed 911 to the US), I think what Jah is trying to do is gather support for a cause. when enough people do this quickly enough it affects governments decisions as some officials are on here reading and other some some other officials.

          So it's not always that we think that we can fix all of it but we can do a part for a cause, and maybe just maybe we'll have some profound effect on a decision that effects the human course. It's like using the butterfly effect but intentionally.
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          Jun 6 2013: Why does everyone automatically assume military action? Someone needs to TALK to Erdogan and explain that he can not violate his peoples rights as citizens as he is doing! A peaceful protest can not be met with violent opposition from police. The actions that have been taken by police are crimes and violations of the protesters' human rights. He simply needs to be told he is wrong and he needs to stop. If he does not heed such a warning from the UN not the US then and only then should more physical actions be taken. He is overstepping what is allowed as a democratic diplomat. That's about as simple as it gets.
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          Jun 6 2013: They don't want people to really interfere from what I'm reading on social media. For example, during the holocaust if the jewish people said "Don't worry about it guys we can handle Hitler ourselves." Do you think we would have listened? or Would we have done exactly what we did? You shouldn't have to ask for help when you obviously need it.
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        Jun 6 2013: Hey Jimmy, Hello Jah Kable,

        From what I understand, the U.S. State Department has been very active under President Obama. "Foggy Bottom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foggy_Bottom" is reportedly, aggressively engaged with all nations on issues of human rights, democracy and rule of law. But most of that engagement consists of frank and open ended discussions that occur 'behind the scenes.' Diplomacy is always viewed as preferable to war (even at the Pentagon). Engagement consists of words with the occasional promise or threat.

        All of that has to be a very low key affair. And if the U.S.A. is viewed as publicly indifferent, all the better. That might be the only way for meaningful discussions to begin and have a reasonable chance of getting anywhere . . . The Press doesn't like it. Nothing "newsworthy" happens when the U.S.A./Foggy Bottom operates this way. But this is where the majority of U.S. American influence is felt and applied. Usually the Secretary of State comments only when things are either 1) wrapped up; or, 2) are going nowhere. And when the President, himself, makes a statement on an issue -- that is a really big deal. Usually that means that military options are under review if not consideration.

        Unfortunately, ANYTIME the U.S.A. speaks up on any issue there are ALWAYS negative consequences. There is always a storm of criticism. Non-aligned and hostile governments make sure of that. In the end, this kind of thing works out as a no-win scenario for the U.S.A.
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    Jun 6 2013: And here's another slant which also states the 'Chemical weapons' line being pedaled by Jah Kable is FALSE!

    http://gawker.com/what-is-going-on-in-turkey-and-do-i-really-need-to-care-511018243
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      Jun 6 2013: And here's a source with photos showing pictures of what Jah is claiming... And yes, there were agent orange claims that were false, someone probably got it mixed up with the orange dye being used in water canons to tag protesters and then it spread. But teargas is a chemical none the less... http://intellihub.com/2013/06/03/dozens-of-photos-showing-toxic-and-chemical-gas-canisters-used-on-protesters-in-turkey/
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        Jun 6 2013: Ok Jimmy lets take it to the 9th.............EVERYTHING is made up of chemicals!

        Continuing on............. Lead is a chemical, so if you get shot by a standard fire arm it equates to being shot by a chemical weapon!

        Likewise as rubber is a chemical compound, therefore a body shot with a rubber bullet equates to being shot by a chemical weapon.

        Now if you want to argue the case of which chemicals are more or less dangerous than others, you open even a bigger can of worms (chemicals).

        Cheers...........................
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          Jun 6 2013: Let's take it to the 10th! (just for fun)
          EVERYTHING is made of atoms so therefore a teargas grenade is an atom bomb.
          But I went by the Wiki definition for chemical weapons.
          "A chemical weapon (CW) is a device that uses chemicals formulated to inflict death or harm to human beings."
          So even though you may perceive it as an exaggeration it is true that they used chemical weapons.

          I don't want to open that can of chemicals, there's really no need as I see it.

          P.S Gawker isn't the best way of being critical of your sources either...
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        Jun 6 2013: Oh Jimmy forgot to mention that I personally don't give much credence to the folk at inttelihub as being impartial reporters on anything ie.

        http://unboundradio.com/intellihub-w-shepard-ambellas-2446/

        Especially as the intellihub 'clowns' claim the Boston Bombing was staged!
      • Comment deleted

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          Jun 6 2013: :):):) Thanks Juan for that 'nice' piece of penmanship!

          Btw.........wasn't aware Replicants could reproduce.


          Strange days indeed!.

          Cheers.............
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      Jun 6 2013: We can't all be as flawless as you oh great Blade Runner! Please forgive me for being such a lesser being than yourself. -_-*
      • Comment deleted

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          Jun 6 2013: Well Juan................. lost no sleep over 'IT' nor over your snide remark about reading and understanding.

          That aside I do fail to see the connection/relevance between the American declaration of independence and SOME of the people of of Istanbul bitching about one of the cities parks being turned into prime real estate.

          Lets not forget that, that is what it was about and not about the whole of the country (as was the case in America) wanting to dispose of a tyrant!

          Sure, maybe the handling of the situation in Istanbul could have been handled differently and in hindsight the Govt probably thinks that now as well.

          Not quite the Tienanmen Square massacre, but then that was over a different issue.

          Now begs the question ...............'If the Govt agreed to not allow the redevelopment of the park................would everybody go 'peacefully'?

          cheers...............

          Oh and btw, suggest some of the wording of the American Independence document is not 'self evident' and is open to questioning and validation......but that is another discussion. :)
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        Jun 6 2013: Geeez Jah............. I don't recall making any claims to being 'flawless'............. kindly enlighten me of such.

        Suggest your OP is where all the 'claiming' started and as this is a discussion site let me remind you ALL of the points raised therein are open to question/discussion and validation.

        Accordingly I suggest you show some discipline and avoid the red herring 'snide personal' remarks when the questions are confronting the claims.
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          Jun 7 2013: They used chemical weapons like i said which you claimed was wrong, then Jimmy proved you wrong. As for everything else......................=D
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    Jun 6 2013: It is the same as all protests. It is about perceived in justice. At least they are firing rubber bullets. It is cool that they can protest. You don't see many in N Korea or China.

    This article was quite good:

    www.city-journal.org/2013/eon0603cb.html
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      Jun 6 2013: I didn't think that you liked people being able to protest Pat since it could make a nation succumb to "the tyranny of the majority"...

      Further more, what do you mean by "perceived injustice"? You make is sound as if there were no injustice there or anywhere, is that your standpoint or am I misunderstanding something?
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        Jun 6 2013: Those are 2 different things

        It does not have to be a real injustice it just has to perceived, this is where the straw man is used.
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          Jun 6 2013: It is true that it just has to be perceived, do you think it is simply a matter of false perception in this case? (the case being that the people of Turkey are subject to tyranny).
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        Jun 6 2013: If it was real tyranny they would not be using rubber bullets. Real tyranny does not make the paper.

        The article talks about people are tired of buildings being razed to put up shopping centers, what set it off was the dismantling of a park, but the truth was that it was about Erdogan's authoritarianism.


        @ Jimmy regarding post below

        I don't know about anything other than the protests and that is what I'm speaking of. The country with more executions per year than any other is China, they do not use rubber bullets, or Iran, et al. That is a greater tyranny than one where they can protest without being killed. Or are there only absolutes in your world?
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          Jun 6 2013: I believe there are degrees to tyranny, rape, maiming and murder are on top. I guess that's what you call "real tyranny".

          Say an individual perspective then as comparison to "real" and "soft tyranny".

          I abduct you, the real tyrant would skin you alive and everything like that. The soft tyrant would perhaps only burn you with a cigar or water board you.
          Now if you got burned with a cigar by your government what would you call it?

          And you're right, it became about Erdogan's authoritarianism when the peaceful protests to persevere a city park was attacked by police.
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          Jun 6 2013: Pat.............

          Personally I'd like to see Erdogan go because I see him as taking Turkey back into the enslavement and dark age of Islam.

          But hey, that's another discussion in itself. :)

          Cheers..............
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        Jun 6 2013: The "collective tyranny" of a unified, vocal, and youthful minority can really be a whole lot of fun! But, I have to admit, Tear Gas is not an occupational hazard that I tend to seek out on a regular basis.
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        Jun 6 2013: If I have my choice of tyrannies -- either a tyranny of the Majority or the Minority . . .

        Let me side with the Majority. Majority, as the term 'Majority' is now understood in all democratic nations, is a basic numerical concept. And the idea of 'one man/woman = one vote' is the critical & fundamental concept that makes a just Democracy possible.

        I prefer democratic governments that are subject to rule of law, and make a significant legal effort to preserve the basic human rights of all citizens.

        As it works out, I think we all agree on that.
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    Jun 6 2013: Peaceful protesters you say................................Some folk beg to differ.

    "People in the south and east harbor plenty of anger toward the police and government, one witness says. They just waited for a chance to run riot. "

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/istanbul-feels-like-a-carnival-but-the-protests-are-violent-in-turkey-s-provinces.premium-1.528039

    And Quote last para of the link: ""The protests here aren't really linked to what's happening in Istanbul," said a municipal inspector who asked to remain anonymous. "People in the neighborhood harbor a lot of anger toward the police and government, even though Erdogan brought prosperity here as we haven't seen in Turkey. They just waited for a chance to run riot, and the police know how to fight back."
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    Jun 6 2013: Welcome to our happy planet..............................

    http://www.economist.com/topics/civil-unrest

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_military_conflicts

    We live in an environment of winners and losers......................and Utopia will always just be a dream.
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      Jun 6 2013: The world is what we make it, what are you making?
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        Jun 6 2013: I make sure........... I don't cause physical harm to others unless in self-defence, I don't start wars, I don't do Jihad, I pay my bills and taxes, I don't cheat others, I don't mooch off people and society, I make sure there is food on my table.

        Now methinks if every one else did likewise the world wouldn't be that difficult to cope with.
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          Jun 6 2013: You have 5 "don't"s and two "do"s on what you're making. do you think that the things you do makes up all the needed aspects for humanity go around?

          I don't build nuclear bombs, that doesn't make the world a better place. It only doesn't make it worse.
          At the same time I am making the world a worse place by my ecoprint, I take more from nature then I give back, as I'm sure we all do. I might give that back to humans in some way, who also take from the earth. Now it wont be too long before we really start noticing the damage we're doing and then you'll realize that us acting the way we are today will make the world very difficult to cope with...
  • Jun 5 2013: Yes, the world will sit by and watch. Like it has done with most protests that occur in the world. There will be those who decry this act of violence, but don't or won't get involved beyond a war of words. To do so requires an act of commitment beyond what most are willing to do. Most people are far more comfortable sitting on their couch, typing a response on a blog or other comment than going to a country and risk their lives and livelihood in protest to what they see.

    Countries, if they step in, breach the sovereignty of the country and risk a response from other countries in doing so. Look at the protests in other countries recently, who intervened? We don't see a precedent beyond words at preventing violence in other countries until it affects a bottom line of some sort.

    We have become complacent with our comfort and don't have the stomach to truly intervene.
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      Jun 6 2013: If I could hop on a plane and help these people I would. I'd make my way through the whole area and try to resolve all the conflicts, all the hate, all the pain. If I die than I die. I will know I was doing what I believed in and I'd be fine with that. I know, I'm too optimistic and the world is a dark place. I also know, You cannot destroy darkness with darkness, you need light, strong and constant light. Be a light Everett!
      • Jun 6 2013: You challenge others to go and do something yet you yourself state that you won't do it yourself. Who then shall go? And what good would it do to go and die? What if you went, and lived yet lived injured significantly? What then. What good that?

        If sovereign nations go in, then they move with the force of sovereign nations which impinges on the rights of other nations. Military can not go in. Police can not go in. Mercenary force can not go in. Not without creating other, more significant issues than exist now.

        Just because I do not choose to put myself in harms way does not mean I am supporting what is happening. Violence will not resolve this issue, nor will needless death by people who claim to want to help. No country has had their issues resolved by an invading force of outsider.
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          Jun 7 2013: I don't believe I said I wouldn't do it. I think I said quite the opposite.
  • Jun 5 2013: The world is descending into chaos really. I'm actually shocked that Americans are so placid. We have elected our President twice yet seem to be committed to helping him fulfill his mission. Our country is under attack from itself--a criminal mob has taken over the right and are jamming up everything. I wonder how long it will be before we're in the streets like they are all over Europe and in the middle east with this "Arab Spring" thing. The US needs to clean up its own act and we have people who have gotten away with crime crying persecution without even being prosecuted. I think we should give them a little taste of some real justice. It's a disgrace what's happening here--especially listening to those tea party women whining about "jack boots" and "tyranny" when they got express service for free from the IRS and go their phony applications approved when they should not have been. Cry me a freaking river.
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    Jun 5 2013: The US should help. We always tend to help those in need when the government is abusive. However, it's only when things get nationally bad. Similar to Vietnam, we got involved in a war, and we most likely won't get involved unless it starts to take its toll on thousands of innocent lives sadly.
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      Jun 5 2013: I think what is stopping us is the incentive They don't have a resource we need in the eyes of the gov't. What do they think people are? I think people are the most limitless resource on the planet. Look at what we can accomplish. For all we know, the person that would cure AIDS or cancer is over there protesting and risking their life. Is that not worth it?

      From what I've read (don't know if it's true or not) The US and South America have sold the Turkish gov't in excess of $20,000,000 in crowd control munitions and pepper spray over the last decade. If this is true, than our ignorance of the situation is rationalized but not ethically right.
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        Jun 5 2013: You make excellent points. The US is just very corrupt and unlikely to help. Resources seem to be our key prioritization and saving lives comes second (maybe). It is sad, but true. Other countries may help, but it usually takes a big leap of someone to get everybody else involved. It's just a matter of who is willing to take that leap to help people.
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      Jun 6 2013: Sure, call on America to send over some more of their 'best & finest' as cannon fodder, to attempt to clean up a mess started by others.

      Maybe you have a son or daughter, or even yourself, that would like to volunteer for the front-line?

      Look at these and the time-frames and how well the US is doing and check the body count...............

      http://www.geneva-academy.ch/RULAC/current_conflict.php?id_state=64

      Cheers........................
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        Jun 6 2013: To be specific I don't believe I ever said anything about military intervention Blade Runner. There needs to be contact between Erdogan and the UN. I don't believe I ever said the US should run over and control everything, this is a matter for the UN to sort out altogether. The question was "is the world", not is the US. I know I've been speaking about the US but that is where I'm from. I can't tell other countries leaders to go do something. I can only tell my leader.
        Two of the four conflicts we're in now are because of lies and assumptions. We went in for WMDs, some would say also because of 9/11(I wouldn't). We didn't find WMDs. We continued our occupation anyway. These countries also have a common theme. Resources we can exploit. It's not a surprise this is where we are sending our troops. Yes now lets talk about the body count, which increases because we desire that resource and refuse to let them live their way of life. The body count has grown and grown and grown from us occupying these countries and expecting them to just sit down and do as they are told by foreigners. That usually doesn't go well. I'd have something to say about that as well if that was my home. All the soldiers that are dying/died over there are merely sacrifices to strengthen the hatred towards those people. Don't get my lack of anger for their deaths confused with sympathy for falsely labeled "terrorists". If that was your country and the US invaded and did all that, what do you think people would do? We run around the world yelling DEMOCRACY DEMOCRACY but our actions portray us as imperialists. Just like the country we left to escape it. Thanks for the info to further prove my points Blade Runner, I appreciate it.
  • Jun 4 2013: Be careful to remember that Turkey is an ally to the west and is generally a haven of western values. I feel like some people when seeing this level of violence immediately jump to the conclusion that we should pull a Libya and intervene. However, Libya was an entirely different situation from Syria and Turkey and Egypt and Lebanon. Each protest in each country was unique and needs to be treated as such.

    Turkey is the most secular and liberal country in that region with the possible exception of Israel. Turkey is the biggest ally to Europe and the USA in the region again with the possible exception of Israel. Turkey is more-so a European country than a Middle Eastern country, as proof just look at the fact that Turkey has formally requested to be admitted to the EU.

    With this in mind I think that the west should publicly express their discontent with Turkey's actions, with Erdogan's moves towards a more socially conservative Turkey and should subtly state that we agree with the protesters, which should be then followed by a mountain of "please and thank you"s. Turkey has made momentous movements towards being westernized and as such they deserve respect from their western comrades. We must treat them as Europeans because that is what they want, and are trying, to be.
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      Jun 5 2013: YES I couldn't agree with you more! The problem i see is that they are supposedly a democracy but the people protest and encounter severe violence from police (which is illegal and why they aren't broadcasting the events truthfully on TV) and slander in the press saying they are looters and things of that nature. If you attack people don't expect them to just take it because most people won't. On TV i see police at a distance shooting teargas seemingly trying to disperse the protesters. On the internet i see police ganging up on one person and relentlessly beating them when they are not resisting or attacking. I see them hitting people with their armored vehicles. I see them destroying property to blame on the people. None of this is on the news. It's just a shame that this is even possible!
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      Jun 5 2013: I kinda switched tabs and got distracted, as i usually do, but i think it makes sense mostly. If anything is out of place or seems to be nonsense let me know so i can fix! Thanks!
  • Jun 3 2013: I haven't got this one figured out yet.
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    Jun 2 2013: Contact your local paper, call the TV stations, call the radio shows, do whatever you can to speak for these people! They need the world to help them RIGHT NOW!
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    Jun 2 2013: I watched a lot of clips from the protests today, and I do feel you (and them)... Do you have a suggestion for action?
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      Jun 2 2013: Someone needs to help them. Regardless of the political issues. This is a violation of human rights. The police are attacking people as if they were criminals. They are YOUR citizens who disagree with what you're trying to do so you would beat them into agreement or just crush whoever doesn't agree. More violence is, of course, not going to help anything. They need to give the people what they want, after all, it's supposed to be a democracy! That's the only way, I see, that would stop the bloodshed. Negotiations need to happen. The government needs to listen to the people and actually consider their thoughts, not just dismiss them and continue on with what they were going to do anyway. Even after the bloodshed is stopped, these police officers need to be charged for their crimes, the politicians and leaders that are giving the orders need to be charged as well. This will not go unnoticed by the world. Even if no action is taken people will see how governments react to protest and learn from it. This is a beginning to something much bigger if it is not corrected soon. I am not a politician or a police officer but that does not make my opinion on what is right or wrong any less valid. My only motive is the fair treatment of all.
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        Jun 3 2013: I hear you. I do hope that you don't think that i disagree with them or would beat them... I'm actually kind of hoping for protests here in Sweden as well, then it's on with the Fawkes mask and out to the barricades.

        P.S I am a politician, you can be too! Then you don't have to ask for change you can write it.
        With you motives (mine alike) you really should become one.
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          Jun 3 2013: I don't think you disagree with them and I would be proud to be a politician but in the USA I would be seen as unfit. The mudslinging would bury me day 1. I appreciate that so much though! I feel pain everytime i see someone being hurt, no matter who it is.
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        Jun 5 2013: I agree with everything in this comment, but HOW would individuals looking to help go about enforcing this, holding the police accountable for their actions, mediating negotiations, etc? It would be nice if merely reminding the Turkish government of how a democracy works would make them comply, but that notion is unfortunately idealistic. In my opinion, the most efficient civil way to ensure their compliance is for the international community to threaten something that they value and use that as leverage against them. For example, their bid to join the EU. Denying them admission to the EU and directly correlating their rejection to the undemocratic way that the protesters were handled would send a powerful message.

        Arming and educating Turkish citizens with measures against the harsh crowd control tactics being used by the police would also level the playing field a bit. However, this would probably escalate the government's response, and lead to more bloodshed.

        So then we're left with more underhanded and subversive methods. DDoS, communication disruption...things like that. Some of these can be conducted remotely, but others require more involved set up and execution. Some of these measures carry risks of their own and could cause collateral damage to innocent parties as well.
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          Jun 5 2013: NO no more strongarming and threatening and we can't exclude the country from the EU because of the orders and resulting actions of one man and his mislead police force. Police should not be the ego maniacs that they are. They should be humanitarians. I know it's idealistic but whoa i just had deja vu but im back what we expect is what people will attempt to achieve. Police are taught to deal with criminals constantly not law abiding citizens. This warps their whole opinion of people. Erdogan has crossed the line though. He is asking for someone to smack some sense into him. He thinks he can get away with the crimes he's committing. I know i said no strong arm but this is the only option he is leaving the other democracy. I'm sure if his police saw an army coming they wouldn't be so quick to attack. The army does not have to kill anyone either. The standing force will walk in, take him, and walk out. That simple. I don't believe the Turkish army will stand behind him after all this. They will be happy to let him be brought to justice. All my idealistic opinion though. I just want it to stop as soon as possible. If the media worldwide actually covered the real events instead of the dulled down Erdogan approved version they might have been solved already. I know the turkish media is silent about it but i see it everyday on social media and youtube. The world knows what's going on yet they refuse to acknowledge it doing the same media coverage of the most mild crowd control videos they can find and blaming protesters for the violence. It all just needs to stop. Don't tear down the park. Listen to your people. Maybe they will show mercy. Maybe.
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        Jun 6 2013: I wish I could share your idealistic approach, as it appeals to me greatly. But I am skeptical that a viable solution outside the scope of what I suggested exists. If you have additional suggestions or ideas that can be put into action, I would be interested to hear them.
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          Jun 7 2013: I'm not even sure! Going further to fulfill this goal would cause me to defy my beliefs(not religious) and do things I say not to do. There is enough knowledge of the crimes for diplomatic intervention from the UN. You're idea could very well be the solution that is needed but in either case enough is not being done. Actions need to be taken.

          Rationalism states that the sovereignty of a nation-state may be violated in extreme dcircumstances, such as human rights abuses.
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      Jun 2 2013: If this was an oil rich nation i would bet my life that the USA would already be in there with a force of hundreds of thousands but, sadly, they would be there to protect the government so they could reap rewards afterwards. It's a shame what will motivate people of power to lift a finger.
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    Jun 2 2013: Letting this happen and doing nothing is just as bad as doing it yourself.
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    Jun 2 2013: and that wasnt even mentioning the vehicular assaults on these protesters!