TED Conversations

Jah Kable

Thinker ready to be unleashed upon the world,

This conversation is closed.

Is the world really going to sit back and watch as these peaceful protesters in Turkey are attacked by police with chemical weapons?

Peaceful protesters are being attacked with chemical weapons and RUN OVER by swat vehicles. Is this not worthy of help from the world? Is it possible that respect can be worth more than a resource that we readily fight for at the drop of a hat? Why are human rights being ignored? Peaceful protest meets non-peaceful police and the world just stands by and watches. Where is this right? Do our leaders have any morals? We intervene whenever a resource is in the equation.

  • thumb
    Jun 8 2013: Well, what did you do when peaceful protesters in Montreal were treated in a similar way by police? BTW, this picture is not from Turkey, but from Montreal: http://500px.com/photo/5826643
    • thumb
      Jun 9 2013: I was not aware of these events otherwise I would have done the same thing I did for the Turkish people. No one should be treated in such a manner and the fact that anyone can do these things to another person is very unsettling to me. What the world needs is cooperation, without that we are all doomed.
    • thumb
      Jun 9 2013: No one will tell something about it because the media won't amplify it, why ? Simply to keep that nice and sharp picture of the civilized occident who respects humanrights ! SAD
  • thumb
    Jun 6 2013: Why are the Turkish people fighting?
    • thumb
      Jun 6 2013: I just watched the video here: http://youtu.be/aEapNRakzDI and I was deeply moved. Clearly the Islamic leadership in Turkey is trying to take that nation backwards into a more conservative state; one that is more consistent with the misguided ideals of totalitarian control. Here is a link to a document that remains quite revolutionary to this very day. Read it first before you worry about where it comes from.


      The ideas within this document remain revolutionary. Totalitarian governments hate these ideas. But they tend to be clueless as to how strongly and positively most U.S. Americans feel about it.

      I know little of the actual political forces at work in this conflict, but I am aware of where, when, why, and how student-youth movements have been both influential and successful in effecting significant change. Now is the time for great care and even greater vigilance. Because now is the time when a totalitarian regime, in both perceiving and FEELING the threat --begins to search for justification to increase control. In fact, this process is already a decade old now. So your opponents have a head start.

      And here is an idea for you. Who is it that the State Police of Turkey need fear most? The young man who made this video referenced here? Or the mysterious woman with a bottle of vinegar who helped the young man?
  • thumb
    Jun 16 2013: Some more ponderings.....................

    Why Turkey's PM is the envy of the dictator class!

    • thumb
      Jun 16 2013: Nice article. THAT seems to explain things. And that seems to answer the questions I asked above. But to what degree do you support the Turkish government, as it is described in this article? And how do you balance that against the right of peaceful protest in a democracy?

      I know it can be annoying for someone to ask too many questions. That annoying habit I retain after 50+ years of hard experience w/it. I learned how to ask (WHY?) when I was about two years old. My late parents were school teachers. And strangely enough, they ALWAYS had answers.

      You've really provoked a deep response here from some of the Muslim observers. I'm curious about that.
    • thumb
      Jun 16 2013: I'm PUMPED that you posted this Blade Runner!
  • thumb
    Jun 13 2013: Why would I do anything that could effect my already comfortable life?
    What have the people of Turkey (amongst Libya, Syria, Egypt...) ever done for me? What am I going to get out of helping complete strangers?
    They are Muslim, who cares about them?
    Putting aside the common and normal attitudes of the brain-washed masses...

    Now that the news of Turkey is even being publicly shown on our corporate news stations says something, but nothing from the actual station should be accredited as being true. (As using phrases like conservative and liberal to explain a middle eastern countries politics is adequate coverage.) What it says is "the power of the internet is real" and this power allows everyday citizens to be informed.. And while most Westerns pride themselves on believing they are well-informed about global and local issues, the contrary is more evident.

    An outstanding difference between west and [middle] eastern attitudes is the fact westerners are far more individualistic with thinking. Middle Eastern countries have been able to organize and revolt recently because they trust their neighbors far more commonly than we would here in the states. If the U.S ever revolted like one of these countries, more civilians would probably harm other civilians than the military-police would get a chance to - we are a very selfish culture: our entertainment and education system is enough to note here. This attitude needs to be recognized.

    Ignoring Turkey for a moment to look at Syrian Terrorist ("protestors" with guns)... Who happened to be formed by the CIA (who Osama was a member of) like Al Qaeda. There is shadow-government behavior in this world, and it is not bound to American soil. Although protesting is now 'low-level terrorism' right here at home.

    The issue of Turkey, whether you can or cannot help, should be noticed and investigated on one's own terms. In fact, look into why all of the middle east is revolting slowly...
    • thumb
      Jun 16 2013: OK, I admit to being brainwashed. It keeps things cleaned up inside that vacant space between my ears. I don't consider my cranium to be the equivalent of a hollow tree -- neither bugs nor birds, nor squirrels, nor owls enter to take up residence, uninvited.

      I think there are a great many U.S. Americans who care a great deal about 'Muslim' issues. The events of 9/11 did that for us. The Earth is a much smaller planet these days. In part, 9/11 was a consequence of that.

      Are you informed? Do you claim to be informed? Better to maintain a healthy skepticism and observe events as they are. Draw your conclusions later, when you have more information/facts upon which to decide. Part of my appreciation/debt to Blade Runner (here) is the degree to which he provokes informative responses from others. I see (at least some) of what he sees, here.

      Are you criticizing the U.S. media? Or do you criticize your fellow citizens? If so, on what basis? And if on the issue of "ignorance," I can afford to agree (to a point). But will you offer us an alternative to illuminate that point?

      Who told you that the U.S. is a very selfish culture? And why were you willing to believe them when they said it? http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/15/opinion/bennett-generosity Bill Bennett is a friend of mine. Smart guy.

      Who told you that middle east countries trust their neighbors? And who told you that "more civilians would harm other civilians than the military police?" How old were you when 9/11 happened? Go ask some older person you trust just how MUCH U.S. Americans support one another when confronted by a common threat or shared tragedy! U.S. Americans stand together in ways that I find admirable.

      Watch out for idiots on the internet who will try to get you to believe that the CIA is responsible for 9/11. The hijackers on the plane wanted to kill us. You too if you'd have been there. Check your facts/attitudes and talk to some older folks in your life. Examine all
  • thumb
    Jun 11 2013: Yes, it always did...
    The world is not any one specific...
    The world is I and you and he and she and we and they and all of us.
    So ask yourself: "Self, are you going to sit back and watch ???"
    • thumb
      Jun 12 2013: I'm doing what I'm capable of. My voice will not be heard the same as leaders that should be speaking. All I can do is inform. I agree with everything you said too. We need to realize that we are all connected. What happens to one will happen to the next, eventually. Turning a blind eye solves nothing. Picking up weapons solves nothing. I believe helping to understand solves everything.
      • thumb
        Jun 13 2013: Yes you do, by raising your question here, letting others the opportunity to think and react. Thank you for that.
  • thumb
    Jun 9 2013: Here we are again Jah with me catching up on your '19 hours ago' which had no reply option...............

    Firstly, suggest we both know that your 'fave' bleeding heart made up fantasy tale is not what I was referring when I quoted Islam's '"Taqiyya and Kitman" and the condoning of lieing to further the cause of Islam. Accordingly I suggest your analogy is a joke.

    And as for your fantasy question...'Do you lie to her or tell her the truth?'.................Begs.....Why do you have to tell her anything at that point?

    And boy is this one piece of dishonest hypocrisy................"Don't tell me about my morals. You are not "God" or anyone that has earned respect from me so you have no right to judge me or any other person here."

    That from the Guy that came on bragging about his 'high morals' now tells us his morals are beyond questioning or discussion.

    Moving along...........................And a 'god' has what to do with this?

    Further Jah...........I don't recall asking for or seeking your respect, nor am I seeking it!

    Also suggest, we ALL have the right (except maybe under Sharia Law) to make whatever judgements we desire just like you have done right here and now and on the events in Turkey.

    And as for this :)...........' I don't think I'm even going to respond to you anymore honestly.'...............Hey Jah, I've had my doubts about you responding 'honestly' ("Taqiyya and Kitman") from the start! :)

    Also suggest that walking away doesn't automatically mean/guarantee/prove that somebody is a 'bigger man'..........could be nothing more than a bit of self serving political maneuvering to save face and try and collect some brownie points from the naive.

  • Jun 9 2013: Jah,
    It is such a travesty.
    I came across this just now, a photographer is seeing the mayhem and violence on a daily basis, as it's going n more or less in his backyard. He has shared an incredible number of photos and encourages people to share them, to raise awareness.
    • thumb
      Jun 11 2013: It is a shame. As modern and intelligent as we are, most people get some power and all sense and humanity goes out the window. They return a caveman way of thinking "I'm leader. You listen or else. UGH UGH UGH!" We are not naturally aggressive. I don't care what anyone says. Kids don't go around hitting other kids unless they saw it before. Kiddie see, Kiddie do. The cycle of violence and pain just has to stop. It's up to our leaders to make that happen. Citizens have been trying for a long time and always get crushed by gov't or the majority of citizens(who are brainwashed to believe these things are necessary for their survival). World wide cooperation WILL be much more beneficial to us as a species, no matter what corner of the world you're in. I think that the case is, They don't want to listen to a bunch of "hippies". They're too "good" for that. Almost constant war since civilization has modernized is proving that this way isn't working. Everything belongs to everyone. It's just that simple. When that thought is common between all people, We will truly know peace and prosperity.
      • Jun 11 2013: You said it, Jah. "It's up to our leaders to make that happen."
        And when leaders go nuts, the people suffer.

        I heard some updates on the radio this morning, what the people in Istanbul see on the media paints a very different picture than what is going on in reality.
        Propaganda needs to stop!

        This whole thing aggravates me to no end. Ever since 1987, Turkey's membership bid to the EU has been controversial, at best. Clearly, there is polarity in what the people want, and what the leaders want, or rather, are clinging onto, at the expense of the people.


        Have you seen this?
        • thumb
          Jun 11 2013: What bothers me even more than the lies about whos attacking who is the fact they keep saying its over a park.... It's over plenty more things than a park. The people just drew the line there. This is all from what I've read from people in Turkey. They are just crossing the line. I don't understand why no one in NATO/UN is looking at twitter or facebook or anything with living people communicating. ALL THE EVIDENCE IS THERE! I think they are waiting for a confession from Erdogan before they do anything or maybe they are waiting for permission from the oppressor Erdogan to come and protect his enemies "the looters". Which were college students and firefighters and librarians and every other job before the protests but now they are looters. If that obvious of a lie is accepted without question I guess I'm Bill Gates son and he hasn't been paying support. That's a logical metaphor. Both are completely ludicrous and are nothing but words out of one persons mouth. Erdogan is going to cause a civil war in Turkey. People say the protesters are 30,000 strong and the city has millions of people. Yes, that may be true. When the real bullets start flying do you think 30,00 is going to increase or decrease? They are fighting for their homes, their city, their country, and their future. The police are fighting for.... pension? I don't even know because they are puppets. They are just doing what they are told like good little pets. Be a man, all of them need to remember they are men NOT SLAVES. Then again they were pepper spraying female students sitting in parks and shooting tear gas at women in dresses.... I don't think she's protesting in this warzone in a dress bro calm down. If I was there watching that firsthand I would be the first to toss a brick because those are all scumbag moves. No excuse for it at all. Orders? Do you have free will? Ok, now have fun rotting in prison for 30k assualt and battery charges, a few murders, attempted murder with tear gas container, ect!
      • Jun 11 2013: The true travesty is indeed, that the people are fighting against the people. The police are brainwashed! Convinced by their superiors, that what they are doing is 'good'.

        Civil war can lead to change, but at what cost??
        • thumb
          Jun 12 2013: Erdogan have proven that he will not tolerate criticism. He says he openly welcomes it but if he feels it's insulting he will not. He loaded the gov't with his like minded friends and all that opposed him were punished when he got to a level where he had the power to do so. He made examples out of those who opposed him. They lost their jobs, at the least. Some were jailed for their opposition. That is not democracy in any sense. He has let his personality cloud his democratic judgement and actions. Democracy does not rule with an iron fist. Democracy rules with compassion and understanding and a willingness to heed the opinions of those who disagree. I just watched some JFK speeches and he nailed it. Over 40 years ago JFK nailed it. What he warned of is here and in full effect. If we do not act soon, we will all pay the price. All for the wants of a few terrible "people". These "people" are a plague on the world and the examples they set are only spawning more like them. I have hope that good can prevail but like you said "at what cost".
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: Jah . . . I can't get all the way there with the solutions you propose.

        But your basic observations are Right on point! Please do not give up hope. Change is possible. And change will come. Everyone must work together. And everyone must understand the value of peaceful protest. In my lifetime, Dr. Martin Luther King changed an entire generation of indifferent, white, racist men & women (my parents and their generation) into reasonable, concerned, law-abiding citizens. It still took Affirmative Action and other, similar, laws to ensure that racism and prejudice were/are unacceptable. But change did come. And violence was not the way.

        Other than by posting here on TED, and by keeping myself informed on events, I have to admit that I am unsure as to how I might help. Participation in the Vidalia/TOR project surely helps at some level. But beyond that? Who knows? I could write to my Congressman or Senator and hope for something better. But is military intervention really the answer?

        It is very easy to say that this is not my struggle. It is. But as an ignorant foreigner, how likely am I to choose the wrong side? There are nuances and consequences and personalities involved. I know. I have seen that first hand.

        No, on the day that about 500 million people or more all AGREE that change must come, change begins. And change completes very quickly when that many people agree. We just all have to find the one idea to agree upon . . . that makes the change inevitable.
  • thumb
    Jun 9 2013: Check out this link from Blade Runner. The Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated the Obama White House

    Well, if we just changed one thing on all their resume's: their religion -- they'd all sound like pretty good civil servants. If we changed Islam to "Southern Baptist" across the board then both liberals & conservatives would have no complaint. Then if we made them all white folks from Greece, then none of the tea party would have a second thought about any of them!

    So maybe there is some racism involved? I don't know. You gotta have more to make that kind of accusation stick in any meaningful way. I know, I learned about that the hard way.

    When I was in the military they taught us about spies & stuff like that. But I learned the hard way that you leave that intelligence stuff alone! Trained professionals do that! Both inside and outside the military. Your job in the military is vigilance and doing your duty carefully. No more & no less. Investigation is something else; that's a different animal. And that is where all the questions have to end for me! If they are all hard workers and do a good job, that's fine. And if the FBI checks them out w/all that NSA telephone & internet surveillance, then that is even better. If they go terrorist or anything and start building bombs; I'd bet the FBI would catch them quick!
    • thumb
      Jun 9 2013: Well Juan................suggest we can't turn them into what they are not and leaving the race card out of the slot and when one stacks the undermentioned on top of each other is there some room for concern............





      Would it perchance beg the question of who's side they are on and which masters they serve?

      Curious...................just asking.
      • thumb
        Jun 9 2013: Blade Runner, we may agree more than disagree. I wrote this earlier today.

        Is TERRORISM RADIOACTIVE? Is TERRORIST Islam making itself RADIOACTIVE? Will Islam invite its own destruction? Can we avoid WAR?

        I see no fear in the hearts of my Comrades. To quote Vladimir Putin, "They see us as dust."

        They lie to pacify us. Islam permits that. We in all Civilized Nations; We despise liars. If they cannot speak truth as men, & accept TRUTH' as the price of membership in worldwide civilization; I see a very difficult future for them.

        Furthermore, they misinterpret their own willingness to engage in deception and violence as strength. There is a familiar solution for that kind of 'Jihad.'

        There is no longer a legitimate NAZI (Aryan-national socialist) party left anywhere on Earth. There is no conservative 'wing' or liberal 'wing' of the Nazi party anywhere. Adolph Hitler and his ideas were TERMINATED! Japanese Imperialism was TERMINATED! Saddam Hussein & his sons were TERMINATED! The Ba'athist party has been TERMINATED!

        We have proven ourselves. We are NOT the cowards they suspected us of being. We will fight. And for as long as they think they can 1) lie to us; and 2) kill us -They make a serious mistake. Everyone agrees with me on that point. We do not fear death. We will not submit to insanity. And we will fight.

        Only ONE nation on this Earth has ever used Atomic Weapons to end a military conflict. Only ONE. That nation built/tested one nuclear bomb to prove that it could be done. The next two bombs built were used to TERMINATE a conflict. Over 200,000 killed without remorse-2 bombs on Japan.

        The above is horrible to think about: But to quote Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along?" If things continue as they have thus far, one day we will either 1) run out of options, or 2) just flat-out run out of patience. Think about that! Every leader of every Civilized nation does. They do. So should we! Terrorism is Radioactive & poison to all.
  • Jun 7 2013: USA has been doing the work of World Police for decades now. It attacked many countries and killed millions of innocent people. It has in fact acted like an international terrorist. Some demonstrations somewhere should not bother us any more except when crimes against humanity are being carried out. In that case we must first ask for the international trial of American Presidents and members of the Congress who eliminated the Humanity in millions without justification from President Roosevelt to President Obama. Leave Turkey alone, they will resolve their issues amicably. We should trust the democracies of other countries as well.
  • thumb
    Jun 6 2013: By Jah.....

    10 hours ago: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_Jihad_mean

    "The greatest tyrants today are those who prefer the rule of man over the laws of God (Sharia law). Jihad and the establishment of Sharia law on earth are the only two things which will unite all people, of all races, and rid the world of oppression, poverty and corruption for good."

    Well Jah..................read the Islamic 'propaganda' on that link you put up and the aforementioned is the last para of the post on the link page and as far as I'm concerned Sharia Law is the biggest growing tyranny facing this planet today and anybody advocating Sharia law via Jihad is a terrorist in my book!

    And further suggest your link only gave the 'sugar coated' version of Jihad as opposed to the 'hardcore' version.

    • Comment deleted

      • thumb
        Jun 8 2013: Hi Juan......................suggest this covers your concerns ...................

        .."Taqiyya and Kitman"

        • thumb
          Jun 8 2013: I see your point. To quote Vladimir Putin, "They see us as dust."

          They have no concept of how seriously we in the west despise liars. If they can't see at least a 'measured-diplomatic TRUTH' as the price of membership in worldwide civilization; I see a difficult future for them.

          I say more in my post below.
    • thumb
      Jun 7 2013: That was simply to point out that the meaning of the world is not commonly known and is generally misused and misunderstood. I struggle trying to teach people. That does not mean i hurt or kill them when they do not learn or refuse to listen. I don't commit jihad as you would say. Jihad is simply a struggle outsiders of the religion associate with violence when it is a personal struggle. Psychically, mentally, and emotionally.
      • thumb
        Jun 8 2013: Well Jah.....I beg to differ with you on that point and suggest the word 'jihad' is quite well known and understood in the West and the West has felt the brunt of Jihad many a time.

        And lets be clear about this.................yes, there is the personal NON violent jihad struggle and then there is also the TOTALLY violent jihad struggle against the non believers.


        Oh and then we have.....................Taqiyya and Kitman..................

        Like to enlighten our boys and girls herein as to what that entails..............???

        Seeing I detect a hesitancy on your behalf, so let me help out with this link...............


        Isn't education great! :)
        • thumb
          Jun 8 2013: "Seeing I detect a hesitancy on your behalf".... I believe YOU took a whole day to respond. That is not my hesitancy sir.
    • thumb
      Jun 7 2013: I agree. They just never give up.

      The recently released NSA order to collect all data and filter it to find these terrorists will work. It's been going on for over 7 years now and they haven't come to get me yet. I guess I passed the test. :)

      Without communication, there is no Jihad. Without bank accounts there is no Jihad. Without weapons, the terrorist will simply have to go back to beating their wives and rattling their sabres in order to exhort how strong and manly they are.

      The one thing that Islamic don't understand is our commitment to preventing their violence and wife beating from becoming part of the social structure of western democracy. Democratic Jihad is stronger than terrorist Jihad.

      The democratic Jihad being launched by NSA at this moment will demonstrate our commitment, motivation and ability to bring them to their knees.

      Decent honest folk have nothing to fear from this battle that is in full swing and picking up the pace.
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: This is the one i thought was correct
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: This one I KNOW is correct! Thank you John Moonstroller!
    • thumb
      Jun 8 2013: I see your point. So really? Why should we hesitate? I've always found FEAR to be a great virtue in those who deserve to feel it. And I see no fear in the hearts of my Comrades.

      To quote Vladimir Putin, "They see us as dust."

      They have no concept of how seriously we in all Civilized Nations -- despise liars. If they can't see at least a 'measured-diplomatic TRUTH' as the price of membership in worldwide civilization; I see a difficult future for them.

      Furthermore, they misinterpret their own willingness to engage in deception and violence as strength. There is a solution for that. Yes, I see!

      If you will notice, there is no longer a legitimate NAZI (Aryan-national socialist) party left anywhere on Earth. There is no conservative 'wing' or liberal 'wing' of the Nazi party anywhere. Adolph Hitler and his ideas were TERMINATED! so-to-speak. Saddam Hussein and his sons were TERMINATED! The Ba'athist party has been TERMINATED! in Iraq.

      We have proven ourselves NOT to be the cowards they suspected us of being in Afghanistan. And for as long as they think they can 1) lie to us; and 2) kill us -- I perceive that as a serious mistake. And I think that everyone agrees with me on that point. Although not everyone will say it --

      Only ONE nation on this Earth has ever used Atomic Weapons to end a military conflict. Only ONE. That nation built/tested one nuclear bomb to prove that it could be done. The next two bombs that were built were used to TERMINATE a conflict.

      The above is a horrible way to illustrate my point: But to quote Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along?" If things continue as they have thus far, one day we will either 1) run out of options, or 2) just flat-out run out of patience. And we all need to think about that! I can think of a solution for that. So can every leader of every NATO allied nation. They all see the same problem. Might they one day all see the same SOLUTION!
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: "...We have proven ourselves NOT to be the cowards they suspected us of being in Afghanistan. And for as long as they think they can 1) lie to us; and 2) kill us -- I perceive that as a serious mistake. And I think that everyone agrees with me on that point. Although not everyone will say it -- And I consider myself 'Liberal' in most of my political ideas..."

        There is no mistake if you kill everyone. That way there are no distractors to the event. the winner gets to rewrite history and leave out your part in it

        Of course such mindset could arise again in the future unless satisfactory cleaning methods are used to complete the total extermination.

        Going another way, require we take into our bosom, the ideas and philosophies of the other side. Merge them with our own. Make them brothers and sister of a different ideal.
        • thumb
          Jun 11 2013: John Moonstroller,

          I reply to your comment at the top of the page. I like your picture. It makes my head itch.
  • thumb
    Jun 6 2013: You can rob (as bankers have done to all of us), invade other countries (USA in our times), kill (drone attacks also by USA) and genocide (e.g.: as Nazis to Jews and same decade Jews to Palestinians which they STILL are doing) as long as you have the power to JUSTIFY it.

    I'm sorry to say but 'human rights' and 'revolution' are alien worlds to the place we live in.
    • thumb
      Jun 7 2013: Yup as long as you do it wearing a suit. Sadly, yes those two things are alien to most of us.
  • Jun 6 2013: I find it odd that nobody has pointed this out yet:
    Turkey is a member of NATO.
    And Turkey holds a strategic location in the various ongoing conflicts in the Middle East.
    Given the larger geopolitical environment, I think it's very unlikely that the US or the Europeans are going to take any overt or official action in this situation.
    • thumb
      Jun 7 2013: Kudos Kevin! A very sad yet valid point to a debate that would not exist if Erdogan police did not attack peaceful protesters. Would you agree that Erdogan needs to be removed?
      • Jun 7 2013: I am not a Turkish citizen, so it is not for me to say.
        A little research shows that he has been democratically elected by the people of Turkey for three consecutive terms. It would be presumptuous of me to say that I know what it good for the people of Turkey better than they know themselves.
    • thumb
      Jun 7 2013: I think that's a pretty clear picture of things Kevin. No one is going to get involved. Turkey is a modern western thinking country. They have to deal with their people. I assure you if the same thing happened here in the US, no one would invite themselves into our disagreements.

      I wouldn’t want to see my country go up in flames in that way. I would want the government to do something about it. The whole purpose of Democracy is to work things out without violence. Let he who would throw the first stone beware.
    • thumb
      Jun 6 2013: I confess my ignorance of the language being spoken. But clearly something is happening here to which the U.S. must respond. I'd advise anyone visiting this thread for any reason to watch this video first!
    • thumb
      Jun 7 2013: Thank you Anon.
    • thumb
      Jun 6 2013: My theory is that any government that at least claims to be a democracy cannot allow public unrest to reach this level. There will always be malcontents who choose to protest. And that, with varying levels of justification. In the most successful democracies, access to the courts and access to a legal system that can and will act to effect change is critical. For example, the Civil Rights movement as led by Dr. Martin Luther King used both the power of public, peaceful protest AND the power of a just and impartial court system and criminal justice system to force change to benefit all U.S. Americans and African-Americans in particular. I think that President Barak Obama would agree w/me (or I with HIM) on that point..

      In any democracy, the police are obligated to act in the public interest and keep things sane, if not 100% safe.

      By way of one example I've offered elsewhere; here is one example of why governments must occasionally fall. The Romanov dynasty had ruled Russia for over 300 years. At the time of the Communist Revolution in 1917 that dynasty had obsessively preserved an oppressive, feudal system. And that system was a relic of an archaic and primitive past. The Romanov dynasty had simply ignored the democracy movement that had successfully swept across Europe in the preceding 200 years. People just got tired of it. And the rest is history.
  • Comment deleted

    • thumb
      Jun 3 2013: Yes i understand we can't overstep. People are dying in the streets because of excessive violence by the police. I say that's asking for someone to intervene. The UN needs to apply that pressure because the people are being violently and illegally brutalized in plain sight. There are many videos of a single man being beaten by 3+ officers with night sticks! The man is not even resisting. He is simply trying to escape the beating. This is no longer riot control, THIS IS AN ATTACK ON THE PEOPLE! It has gone on long enough. We are not barbarians and no one should be allowed to act as such!
      • Comment deleted

        • thumb
          Jun 3 2013: That's very true! The people of Turkey and the world will not forget these events though. They have committed their crimes and must answer for them. I just hope "I was just following orders" doesn't excuse their actions as it has before in history.
      • thumb
        Jun 5 2013: A single man being beaten by 3 officers with night sticks is a far cry from what's happening in Syria.

        Heck, it probably even happens in the United States every day too...
        • thumb
          Jun 5 2013: That sadly is one of the less violent things they are doing and Yes those events are tragic as well. I suggest you start a conversation about them and ask for ideas. Thanks for the comment though Mike.
  • thumb
    Jun 16 2013: Well folks .......................just finished watching the news............

    Looks like the protests are over for now.

    Looks like the park has been cleared of the protesters.

    Saw a public meeting addressed by the prime minister and attended by thousands of Govt supporters.

    And Guys..............lets not forget this is a democratically elected Govt and all the dissenters/protesters can cast their vote at the next elections.

    Isn't that how democratic change works???
  • Jun 16 2013: Hi Nicholas lukowiak
    you dont know anything about moslems,as ,when you were born, you didnt know any thing.
    Im moslem and I dont see any difffrent between you and I.
    and you must know that your government make this bad situation for moslem people,so we dont need the help of humans like you,just perevent your government that they doing.
    we are Iranian and so soon that you cant think it, we will become powerfull,but not like you.becaese my religion said :each human is respectable.
    • thumb
      Jun 16 2013: Curious here Haman............are you per chance claiming that the US govt organized the Turkish protesters in the first instance to carry out the park protest or are you perchance harping on about the Iranian nuclear program????
  • MR T

    • 0
    Jun 13 2013: Right now I doubt your country has a fat lot of resources, you already have one war going!
    • thumb
      Jun 13 2013: Did i say military? I don't think I said anything about people with guns doing something. :/
  • thumb
    Jun 11 2013: "I reply to your comment at the top of the page. I like your picture. It makes my head itch."~ Juan

    Это делает мою голову чесаться тоже. lol.
    • thumb
      Jun 12 2013: I love Google Translate! Not sure how good the grammar or syntax really is. No Russian might EVER say ANYTHING this way. But for the sake of further discussion:

      Некоторые моменты, когда что-то чешется, хороший нуля то, что мы почти все должны помочь себе. Поэтому давайте не будем мир на Земле!
      • thumb
        Jun 12 2013: It's okay for some languages. Korean and Chines work pretty well. I'm not to sure about Russia. I tried one of those websites where you interface with real people to learn a language. The problem with the Russian sites is they try to get you to marry their sister first. It's the same with people from Turkey, they want you to meet (and, hopefully, marry) their sister. I have a friend who fought in the Turkish, Greek war, around 2009 or so. I think the Turks are cool. Love their ideas about baths.

        Speaking of Turkey, I hear they are talking some sit down and talk about things. Do you think the young Turks will take them up on it?

        Where are you from Juan?
        • thumb
          Jun 12 2013: I added my location to my TED profile. But don't look for me there. I live in the year 2037 when the asteroid Apophis is parked at the Earth/Moon La Grange point. There is a gold rush to get there & mine. There's platinum & rare earth elements in there. You can buy a good, working Space Suit at Walmart. I wouldn't recommend the Walmart suit for durable use, though it is better than nothing.

          I am from the future, where human cloning is a reality. We have fusion power and AA penlight batteries that are so powerful they put power back onto the grid!

          I know about marrying someone's sister. I only wish polygamy were legal . . . In a world of ten billion people, maybe it should be! Oh wait! In the future it IS legal! Sorry, I forgot!

          There was a Turkish/Greek war back in 2009? Where the hell was I? And HOW could I miss that! I mean -- I'm up here in the future after all! Did you know that Google now has its own Congress . . . . ooooooh!
  • thumb
    Jun 11 2013: Hi John, I quote you here:
    "Going another way, require we take into our bosom, the ideas and philosophies of the other side. Merge them with our own. Make them brothers and sister of a different ideal."

    But there is another problem afoot here. 'Islam' means 'submission.' 'Islam' REQUIRES submission. And the terrorist faction uses fear to achieve exactly that! They are willing to kill, and they have. That makes them criminals. And it is incumbent upon the rest of Islam to reject the Terrorism and murder. Otherwise their religion is fit only for criminals! What other conclusion is there?

    From what I understand, many already have. But to do so vocally or publicly can risk making one's self a target.

    You say: "Merge them with our own. Make them brothers & sisters of a different ideal." I find that comment very appealing, except that it will never fly with the terrorist faction. They want to inflict Sharia law on all of us and subject us all to an Islamic theocracy. I guess in some ways that is little different from the racist fascism of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. And it took a World War to rid humanity of an entire generation of tainted, poisonous leadership that espoused those ideas with religious zeal. That's a potent analogy to where we are right now!

    Because I am obviously an 'Infidel' . . . or a non-Muslim from birth, I am just another face in the crowd. And were I not 'elsewhere,' I might have been in Boston @ the Marathon in April when the bombs went off. Or I might have been inside the towers when they fell. All of the victims were no different from me. We are all just people, living our lives. And we'd like the opportunity to do that in peace!

    But thanks to that set of peculiar, and insane set of ideas that motivate the Terrorists -- Peace is impossible. Not when a major world religion of 1.6 Billion adherents, espouses the idea that God gives a "Get into Heaven, FREE!" ticket to anyone who commits murder as a suicide Terrorist.
    • thumb
      Jun 12 2013: Some good points there Juan..................and to add to that..... they are not the slightest interested in assimilating and just create Ghettos of Islam.

      There is no middle ground for them.
      • thumb
        Jun 12 2013: For reasons that I have seen on TED (lost link) there is hope. Although Islam has 1.6 Billion adherents, not all of them are the "problem children" that I focus on. Fact is, the "problem children" are the handful of Al Qaeda followers with a misguided theology developed by a misguided clergy. A 'small minority' can be managed. But a powerful/influential minority can be much more difficult to control and/or neutralize.

        I have been privileged to meet professionals of the highest integrity -- who were adherents of Islam. I have been privileged to meet any number of Muslims, whose personal values and individual qualities were exemplary. In fact, were I a better man - I would choose to emulate the quality and integrity of their example. And that, without regard for any religious differences between us. I could be Christian or Agnostic or Buddhist -- and the quality/integrity of those I describe here would remain. The goodness of a human being is based in the integrity of their choices. It is what a person does, and not what a person claims to believe that makes all the difference. And the reality of their good example remains. The fact that they are Muslim reflects only their upbringing, the content of their religious thought and the faith of their fathers. Their actions speak volumes.

        If I have made a mistake in any of my comments, I have painted all of Islam with the same brush. And I wish to correct that mischaracterization here. Apparently, that "problem child" minority gets some very powerful support in some very influential circles. I have no direct information on that, but the silence of some on these issues suggests the possibility that there is a lot of intimidation and fear within the Muslim community on an entire set of religious and political issues. But I only speculate on that

        Again, I have no direct information on that. But this explains my observations. I refuse to abandon hope outright. I believe THAT would be the biggest mistake.
  • thumb
    Jun 11 2013: I'd like to thank Mitch Smith for introducing me to Marian Kramer, Community Organizer from Detroit.
    See her here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDjWvLtQfK4

    I know even more about a Community Organizer from Chicago. He's had some success in leadership here recently. His name is Barack Obama. I think that Barack Obama would view Marian Kramer with both the respect and deference she deserves. I think it must be a "Black Thing" or something . . . but don't mind me. I'm just an ignorant white guy! Never "misunderestimate" Barack Obama. His absent father was a Muslim. And he spent part of his youth in Indonesia. He had playmates who were Muslim. I think the understands Islam much better than anyone gives him credit. And by that, I have faith is HIS understanding of the war on terrorism. I trust him.

    Speaking of 'Misunderestimation . . . " Both George H.W. and George W. Bush are remarkable men. Both evidenced a capacity for thought that was/is much broader than the "Tea Party" or the ultra conservatives realize. After 9/11, the "W" took us to WAR (twice - Iraq & Afghanistan). You cannot fault the Republicans for an inability to directly and aggressively address difficult problems. And after that attack, that kind of direct action was needed. Unprovoked & cowardly attacks tend to motivate us that way.

    I hear what you are saying about "Corporate Fascism." There is a need for change in the U.S.A. Hopefully change will some sooner (NOW) rather than later! But we've created a society here that has a respectable record when it comes to fixing things. It took 100 years and the Civil War to fix slavery. And another 100 plus years to put an African American in the White House. But we do understand change here. And that gives me some reason to hope. What do you think? Hope to hear from you!

    I read your 'solutions.' Thank you for that. It will take more study for me to understand them. Have you considered writing a book?
  • thumb
    Jun 10 2013: I hope it will, but I'm afraid it won't. I'm from Serbia, almost the same was happening here 10+ years ago, and no one seemed to care. On top of it all, the world media described us as 'crazy serbs' - a nickname which still sticks.
    • thumb
      Jun 10 2013: Could this be why the nickname 'crazy serbs' still sticks......................??




      Just asking.......................
      • thumb
        Jun 10 2013: There was a war, both sides were equally guilty, and as with everything there are two sides of the story. We were cut off, and the world only got to see/hear one side of it - which is what you've so tremendously proven right now with your comment. ;)
        • thumb
          Jun 11 2013: Suggest that's far from what I've proven!

          And so does..................".We were cut off" = Genocide and ethnic cleansing is Justified and Ok ??
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: Hah! You posted all the links that describe Serbia as the aggressor, proving my point that people usually hear about one side, and then believe in it firmly since they were baby fed for years on such information via media.
        You're putting words in my mouth. I meant that no one bothered to hear the other side. It went both ways. It wasn't like bombing innocent people - it was war, both sides had their armies and losses. The world only got to see what the media wanted them to see - which is why there's so little information on what's been going on in Turkey.
        • thumb
          Jun 11 2013: Ok, Branislav...........kindly post some reputable links that counter that the Serbs did NOT engage in Genocide or ethnic cleansing.

          If your argument is based on that 'It was war' then on the same token maybe you would like to tell us the Holocaust was Ok because the Nazis had declared war on the Jews?

          And last time I looked ethnic cleansing was all about innocent people, unless being of certain ethnicity deems one 'guilty' of being a criminal.
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: You're clearly missing the point and going off topic for whatever reason. But based on your profile and your previous comments on TED.com I suggest you read http://www.ted.com/pages/conversations_terms before continuing.
        • thumb
          Jun 11 2013: Suggest YOUR the kid that went 'Off Topic' in the first instance by bringing SERBIA into the picture and now that I took you to task over that point you are starting to cry foul and are intimating I am not playing within the terms of engagement of TED.

          As for any of my previous comments herein....................suggest once I start telling lies or going into personal denigration like some herein have done because I have asked questions, I have no case to answer under the terms of TED.

          However feel free to put on the table for ALL to see wherein you believe I have transgressed and why?

          Oh and while your at it also kindly let us all know why and how my 'profile' (I am assuming you are referring to my avatar) is getting your nose out of joint?

      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: ee, you keep doing it - the point of every single comment I made was the media and their power and yet you tried to turn it into something it's not.
        • thumb
          Jun 11 2013: Suggest that's far from every single point you made/were making in that it is/was about the power of the media.

          As for the power of the media......................who is doing the protesting, throwing the molotov cocktails, firing the water cannons and tear gas, etc, etc? Certainly not the media.


          And lets be totally honest here ............from what I have seen on this discussion forum and others, all Topics flow off on varied tangents due to people mentioning points they feel are related or have a similar basis (just like you did with Serbia)...................and yes that then can further flow/develop along certain lines that the initial poster had not hoped for ..........ala You, when you mentioned Serbia and I took your 'crazy Serb' comment down another road, which it appears it turns out you find/found unpalatable.

          "You can argue interpretations.................
          But you can't argue the facts.......................... "

  • thumb
    Jun 9 2013: Some-times, a question can just be answered by other wuestions!

    you asked: Why are human rights being ignored? Peaceful protest meets non-peaceful police and the world just stands by and watches. Where is this right? Do our leaders have any morals?

    Let me ask you please :

    People are dying from hunger all over the world, especially in Asia and Africa, don't they have the right to live ?
    Kids in many contries suffer from deseases eradicated from the occident centuries ago, wouldn't be moral to help them cure ?
    In Syria people are getting killed with all kind of weapons everyday, Is this not worthy of help from the world?
    The war crimes commited by, USA, GB and other contries in Iraq, Afghanistan, are they moral ?
    In Palestine, in Gaza ..... do I really have to tell what's going on there ?

    Billions of dollars that can help making people's life better around all the world are being wasted on wars, Oh wait, saving the world from the islamic terrorism is most important! isn't it ?

    I'm a muslim, and it just tears me apart to see how you guys are misled, and how you look to us as terrorists or that islam is calling for terrorism. For god's sake, France helped Mali against Jihadists, this is good. But they're also calling to arm Syrian rebels who are calling for an Islamic governement ! what a coincidence!

    When an American soldier get killed in a battelfield he's a hero and of course killed by terrorists who are in fact resisting that foreign invasion. But when 50 innocent citizens get killed in an american raid, it's just a mistake !

    When a muslim woman is forced to hide her hair it's a flagrant violation of her rights, when an american single mom is getting kicked of her house because she couldn't pay the bills it's just LAW!

    Briefly, we live in paradoxal world where everyone is misled, we're not free man, we're being watched by them, manipulated.
    • Jun 10 2013: You say we don't understand muslims, that we are misled. The very difference of Islam from western culture or democracy is at heart. We tend to believ in a seperation of church and state, while islamists believe church and state are one. Islam aims to take over the world for Allah by establishing a world wide caliphate, that is ruled by sharia law, we want no part of that. Killing or subjugating infidels comes into this also but enough is enough. I do not want to see any innocents killed or tortured, but when the people assist terrorists in hiding, or do not openly fight them, they become targets. War crimes? I think that word is a little harsh, Iraq and afganistan both had governments that condoned killing innocents, where was the outrage? Why didn't islam do something about that? In my opinion religious morals are comparable to the KKK in this country where the only morals that count are the ones that get your group ahead.
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: Timothy -- I agree with most of your comments except for one thing. War is war! And every 'Jihadi" who fights with a gun or bomb or suicide vest understands that this is a war. No one in the U.S. want civilian casualties. But when you fight an enemy that prefers civilian casualties (like on 9/11) you have to strike a balance. You MUST take the fight to your enemy. You cannot sit back and let civilized and peaceful nations be threatened. This is a war. We are fighting an insane enemy who has no respect for the rule of law. And there just isn't much else we can do beyond what we are doing. Law enforcement and the police can only do so much. The rest will be settled on the battlefield. And that battlefield will not be in Detroit or Chicago. Look elsewhere for that.

        The U.S.; the U.K. & all of NATO, we know how to fight war and win. No one believes, even for a moment, that the terrorists will succeed. And if there are consequences in defeat to the followers of Islam, then so be it. We are not in this to protect anyone's religious views. We are in this to preserve Religious FREEDOM for each to worship God in their own way.

        Unfortunately, Wahabbi Islam does not recognize religious freedom. There is very little of what we in the West respect as 'human rights' --- that will be preserved in the Caliphate that the Terrorist Muslims hope to achieve. And there, is the problem.
        • Jun 11 2013: Juan, the terrorists have already won a victory, they have changed our world and managed to take away our freedoms. I was in the military, and yes, if they play by the rules we would win. They aren't playing by the rules.
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: No, they aren't playing by the rules. Our leadership knew that on 9/11; & (I believe; our leadership) has not forgotten that. So what is our response? Invasion! And why not, when 2996 people died in an unprovoked sneak attack against us. Go camp out in their back yard! Take their territory away from them. Conquer them.

        Now, in dealing with Terrorists, it gets a bit more complicated than that. But you don't hear much about Iraqi -Al Qaeda anymore. Iraq is now one of the most peaceful places in the middle east. I doubt that it is less peaceful than either Jordan or Saudi Arabia. I believe in progress; but like everyone else -- you listen to the news; read what's on the web; and draw your own conclusions.

        If I was from an Islamic nation & was told to 'pick one side or the other,' I'd bet on the U.S./NATO. You still hear about 'Green on Blue' violence. But not-so-much about pitched battles between hundreds or thousands of troops anymore. Nor do you hear about coordinated attacks like 7/7 (London) or 11-M (Spain) anymore. Yes, there was the Boston Marathon bombing. And that is a Big issue for the U.S. Home-grown Terrorism is a major threat. But Osama Bin Ladin is gone!
    • thumb
      Jun 11 2013: The United States of America did not start this war. The United States of America never wanted war. And the United States of America wanted only to live in peace with people everywhere. The overall goal is that all nations will be self-determining. All nations will be ruled under just law. And basic human rights will be preserved universally. This is a very simple set of concepts.

      You complain about American Raids in one place or another. But do you realize that those drone attacks and raids are carefully planned? And from the beginning, the plan is to AVOID civilian casualties. That has always been true. And where that broke down, the military people involved were prosecuted as criminals for disobedience to the orders and instructions they were given.

      You say: "The war crimes commited by, USA, GB and other contries in Iraq, Afghanistan, are they moral ? In Palestine, in Gaza ..... do I really have to tell what's going on there ?" But do you even KNOW what is going on there?
  • thumb
    Jun 9 2013: I have started a new debate... FYI...
    (I will be trying to feed it with new "fieldwork"...
  • thumb
    Jun 9 2013: I really want to 'PLEAD for HELP' on this one! Moments like this, I just assume that EVERYONE at TED (YOU guys with all the money!) are WAAAAY smarter than me on an issue this important. But the longer I look at it. And the more I see 1) silence on the part of average Muslims; 2) And duplicitous "Double-Speak" upon the part of the Islamic leadership . . . I worry. Maybe it's just because I'm a Christian? Maybe it's the limitation imposed on my thinking by my conservative Fundamentalist upbringing? Maybe it's because of my past willingness to vote Republican? Maybe? Maybe! Maybe!

    Islamic Terrorism is RADIOACTIVE! Am I wrong about that? Isn't that both a fair & reasonable question to ask? Terrorism is RADIOACTIVE! Yes, it's inflammatory, but so is TERRORISM! And how long will it be before anger & outrage overcome restraint!

    We were VERY willing to fight two world wars to clean up the distorted thinking of an entire class of world leader. Today, Japan is perhaps the most civilized and peaceful nation on Earth. I see that as leadership. Today Germany is once again a nation of Philosophers, Scientists, Engineers, & Poets. I also see that as leadership. But it took a lot of death and destruction to rid ourselves of what was once quite poisonous leadership.

    Are we headed that way again? When a certain 'sect' of Muslim leadership speaks of 'Jihad' are they talking about killing us? Are they delivering us an ultimatum? That is: "Either SUBMIT to Islam and the Islamic Utopia of Peace on Earth -- or live in fear of death & die!"

    Do they really NOT understand how unwilling we are to tolerate that? And given the history I recite above, what makes this set of poisonous ideas any different from those others. Islam needs to rid itself of an entire class of poisoned leadership. If they won't or can't do it for themselves, History itself provides a hard lesson. There is an alternative! We do not fear WAR, but we hope for peace. Can there be hope?
  • thumb
    Jun 8 2013: I guess the initial protesters were peaceful and police heavy handed. Interesting how this violent response to a protest about building a mall in a park has turned into something more.

    From the outside it looks like a culture clash. Muslim authoritarianism versus those supporting a secular state and resent or fear Islamic and sharia laws being pushed.

    It is one of the ironies of democracy that the people can vote for communists, fascists, dictators, and those supporting the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate.

    I just hope they have a strong enough secular constitution and independent courts and fair elections etc

    Even the US with a constitution prohibiting the state establishment of religion there is an ongoing battle between Christians and secularism.
    • thumb
      Jun 9 2013: Obey one thing I sarcastically love about the US gov't is... What do you do before you say anything in a court room? Swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth SO HELP YOU GOD? while your hand is on a bible. There doesn't seem to be much separation between church and state to me.
      • thumb
        Jun 9 2013: At least there is some............and lets face it, most is just 'window dressing'!

        There isn't any of the Middle Eastern fanaticism except for a minority and they don't deal in wholesale deception and lies!
      • thumb
        Jun 11 2013: Not all courts use a Bible. In fact, very few do. And the the words "So help you God" are not always included. Bottom line is, you lie -- you commit a crime. All crime has to be proven, but a lie in a court of law is a prosecutable crime.

        Blade Runner was thoughtful enough to teach me something about Islam & lying (under circumstances) & Islam & social forgiveness. We don't agree in all aspects, but my level of concern is appropriately raised.

        If you look @ my post above about "is TERRORISM RADIOACTIVE?" I have honestly begun to doubt that a world war can truly be avoided. We had to wipe out the entire industrial might of Germany and use nuclear weapons on Japan. THAT is what it took to eliminate an entire class of Fascist leadership in both countries. Out of that, an entirely new class of leader arose with values & priorities that were a good match with Democracy and Capitalism. We can hope for something like that to emerge out of the 'Arab Spring' but will it? I don't think so.

        If what I see here on TED is TRULY what the average Muslim believes, then it might not be possible to avoid another world war. And that war will be very brief if the provocation is adequate. Another 9/11 attack (or a successful nuclear 9/11 attack) I can guarantee that our leadership will not hesitate to retaliate. I strongly believe that next time we will know what Islamic states are involved. And . . . well . . . I already explained myself above.
        • thumb
          Jun 11 2013: Every court I've been to has a bible and the god part. Maybe it's just a NY thing. I'm not sure just always had me wondering.
  • Jun 8 2013: Everything you see abroad is not like what happens in Turkey. Yes, this protests began peacefully for one of the smallest park in Istanbul in which government tries to rebuild a historical barracks. Perhaps at second day police attack can be regarded violent (actually it is not as violent as happened in developed countries).So far you are right but after the second day especially provocateurs have taken the place of peaceful protestors and after 9 days three citizens died, a policeman was killed by being thrown to a construction zone and a street urchin was thrown from a bridge by these protestors! In Ankara a Turkish flag was tried to be burnt, the damage is almost 40 million dollars, these damages are caused by burning the buses, disassembling the paving stones, damaging to public institutions and so forth.
    who can say that these protests have occurred in a democratic way, can you do that in the USA, Britain or Germany. Several foreign agents are said to be in the protests. Some people were given money to take place in these actions. Protestors are tried to pit against the police, although they are all citizens of the same state. A big game is playing in the Middle East. you can find it difficult to understand but these region can not be left only to people's hands due to its geopolitics.
    Police has never used any chemical weapons, or the PM does not try to be dictator, the vice president apologized from the peaceful innocent people who had hurt by the police attacks. the policemen who acted illegally have detained.
    The exact intent behind these protests are preventing Turkey to develop more both politically and economically. A group of people, supposedly the representatives of the protestors, declared that they also dont want a third bridge (very urgent for the traffic of the Istanbul), a big airport (if it can be build, it will be the biggest airport in the Europe) and like that. Can you think that the concerns of these events are only a small park?