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thetisd theoktisti

Assistant Accountant, Cegedim Relationship Management

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Could we really bear to forgive?

Concerned about how many mistakes we have made. Some of them might had an great impact or influence in somebody's life , yet we might had been influenced by our mistakes. How the situations are after one had made a great mistake such as betrayal? Do we have the power of forgiveness? The real forgiveness , that forgiveness which you are really able to forgive and forget...to continue in that same life situation with the same feelings for that person as there were before..
On the other hand when we do make mistakes, do we really bear to look other eye by eye? ...to look him in that way that we would be able to continue our lives with him as there were before...
In both occasions..do we just pretend to?
Honestly..what forgiveness is..I
Is it a feeling that we can handle of it ? or Is it a power of an upper God?

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    May 8 2013: Forgive the person but not the act.

    Realize that what you see is a reflection of you.

    For more info you might watch "Groundhog Day".

    www.crackle.com/c/groundhog-day/groundhog-day/2460089
    • May 8 2013: Pat, "Groundhog Day" is indeed profound!
      Perhaps life really is full of 'do-overs', chances for us to 'get it right'?
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        May 8 2013: I suppose they did the do over thing to make a point.

        Tomorrow is brand new. A person's life is an accumulation of his decisions in an endless stream. The funny part is that when he blames it is akin to a parrot biting at a mirror as illustrated in the movie.

        You might say free market zen was illustrated in Murray's character as he received the fruit of what he exchanged.
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          May 8 2013: I'm really big on do-overs these days!
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          May 9 2013: Pat, thanks for your replying
          I bear in mind your thoughts , thanks for the movie AND thanks for learning me the free market zen, i am getting started it :) Nice to meet you
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      May 8 2013: I agree with your perspective Pat:>)

      "Forgive the person...not the act"
      People are generally being human....as you say..."an accumulation of...decisions in an endless stream".

      Sometimes, the decisions another person makes do not please us, so we blame that person for causing us to feel hurt, angry, frustrated, etc. If we accept responsibility for what we feel, there is no reason to blame the other person, and no reason to forgive anything. Yes indeed....tomorrow is brand new.....the first day of the rest of our lives. What is the point in starting that day with blame and judgement in our heart? I can see no useful purpose for that.

      We are, as you say, mirrors to each other, reflecting information back and forth all the time. When we realize this, there is no reason to hold another person accountable for our feelings. To have something to forgive, we would first have had to blame and judge, which I do not perceive to be a very valuable practice.
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        May 8 2013: You have so much of wisdom Colleen, why don't you run for President? Sure, America will have better days under your leadership.
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          May 8 2013: Oh my goodness Kiran, thank you! Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have other things to do right now!!!
          LOL:>)
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        May 8 2013: But no comment about free market zen?
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          May 8 2013: Pat,
          I don't know what free market zen is. Want to help me understand that?
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        May 8 2013: It is nothing more than exchange and the quality of the exchange.

        In the beginning of Ground hog day the main character exchanged with people through a dis-indigenous (attitude wise) weather report and belittling sarcasm. People do not exchange well with sarcasm people take real offense to that, as did his love interest.

        As the movie goes on he decides to kill himself out of exasperation obviously a poor exchange to himself and others to do that.

        Then he goes thought a spiritual metamorphosis where he starts confronting life as it is not good or bad. At this point he start exchanging with people in abundance changing their tire, catching children who fall out of a tree, entertaining them with with incredible music and sculpture, etc.

        This is the way the free market works, if you exchange with people poorly they exchange with you poorly, if you exchange in abundance they reciprocate. The reward in this is not just money there is more zen to it than that. Most people think of big evil corporations not how they exchange and raise the standard of living of people with abundance.
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          May 8 2013: OH thanks!

          What goes around, comes around, do unto others...

          "Life begets life,
          Energy creates energy,
          It is by spending oneself that one becomes rich" :>)
        • May 9 2013: Colleen,
          I am trying to reply to your question, "what happens when we do not label actions/reactions positive or negative? ", but the reply is way up here!!

          What happens - utopia, I would imagine!!!
          Labeling and categorizing is what makes and keeps us segregated, alienates us from each other. So you're absolutely right - whether a reaction is positive or negative is completely irrelevant! Both deserve our attention!
        • May 11 2013: This reply is for Thetisd - for some reason I can't reply to your comment...

          You said, "you must have a great clarity of thoughts to take the responsibility of your feelings yet to control them".
          By no means, am I in control of my feelings! And I don't know if I'd want to, either.
          I did learn how to become aware of them, and accept them, even when I didn't necessarily want to.
          Feelings, emotions, intuition - these things are as controllable as breathing, or allowing our heart to beat!

          Acceptance of what you can't control, but what is very much a natural part of you, is where balance can begin.
      • May 9 2013: "...there is no reason to hold another person accountable for our feelings. "
        Indeed, Colleen!
        Our feelings are our own - thank goodness! They are ours to treasure and to cherish, and when we feel secure, to share. Feelings - so personal yet so universal!

        Newton's law states, ""For every action force there is an equal, but opposite, reaction force"
        Now, what happens with every positive action?
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          May 9 2013: Yes Lizanne, I also believe our feelings are our own. When we hold onto hurt, anger, frustration, fear, etc. because of someone elses actions or words, we give up responsibility for our own feelings. And yes, when we feel secure, we can share our feelings without expectations that another person will act/react in a certain way.

          Regarding Newton's law:
          "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to that of the first body."

          "Newton's laws are applied to objects which are idealized as single point masses", and "laid the foundation for classical mechanics".

          Are human feelings "single point masses"? Can Newton's law be applied to human feelings? I suppose in some respects, depending on our interpretation.

          "If a body impinges upon another, and by its force changes the motion of the other, that body also (because of the equality of the mutual pressure) will undergo an equal change, in its own motion, toward the contrary part. The changes made by these actions are equal, not in the velocities but in the motions of the bodies; that is to say, if the bodies are not hindered by any other impediments. For, as the motions are equally changed, the changes of the velocities made toward contrary parts are reciprocally proportional to the bodies. This law takes place also in attractions, as will be proved in the next scholium.[32]"

          Now, what happens when we do not label actions/reactions positive or negative?
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          May 9 2013: Hope you don't mind if I move your comment here to keep it in sequence....

          "Lizanne Hennessey
          40 minutes ago: Colleen,
          I am trying to reply to your question, "what happens when we do not label actions/reactions positive or negative? ", but the reply is way up here!!

          What happens - utopia, I would imagine!!!
          Labeling and categorizing is what makes and keeps us segregated, alienates us from each other. So you're absolutely right - whether a reaction is positive or negative is completely irrelevant! Both deserve our attention!"

          I suggest that it is only in our perception that an action/reaction is negative or positive. When we can let go of the need to catagorize actions/reactions/people, it feels very freeing. The practice of blaming, judging, and catagorizing does indeed keep us seperated, and also, causes a great deal of stress/distress in our "self".

          How much time and energy is spent rehashing pain, anger, frustration, etc., that we may feel someone else causes, when, in fact, we are causing the feelings/emotions in ourselves with the choice to hold onto those feelings/emotions? I like the article Lamb Lamb provided regarding what this behavior does to our brain and neurological function.
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          May 10 2013: Coleen & Lizanne I can't agree more! I am to adopt your ideas into practice in my daily life. It's very difficult , how do you achieve such a balance & serenity? Because you must have a great clarity of thoughts to take the responsibility of your feelings yet to control them...its really hard for us to handle ourselves when we face something bad..Do you practice yoga or something ?do you think positively in every situation? Colleen how nice is that you visit periodically to Greece! Who knows we might drink a cup of coffee in time!
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          May 11 2013: Hello again Thetisd:>)

          You ask..."how do you achieve such a balance & serenity"?

          I think/feel one of the most important factors is to "know thyself". Know where our thoughts and feelings are coming from. Are we acting/reacting because of our ego? Are we reacting with words or actions based on external programming.....what someone may think about us? Are we clear about what we think/feel in any given moment? Do we express ourselves clearly? Why might the words or actions of other people "bother" us?
          These are the kinds of questions I have asked myself over the years to find clarity in my "self".

          I agree Thetisd...it takes clarity of thought to take the responsibility of your feelings yet to control them...

          It does not feel like "control" to me...it feels like another perspective/perception.
          Change our thinking, we sometimes change our feelings, which may change our life experience:>)

          For example:
          Someone says something to us....we can interpret it as hurtful....blame that person for hurting us....carry the emotional pain, blame, anger, frustration, etc.
          OR
          If we know ourself well enough, and realize that what the person is saying has nothing to do with who and what we are, we do not have to choose to be upset, hurt, angry, etc.

          Knowing our "self" also helps when facing challenges. The more information we have about the situation and ourselves, the better we can face a challenge.
          Does that make any sense?

          I practice yoga, and have integrated it into my life. When I'm standing in line somewhere, talking on the phone, gardening, painting my home, etc., I am often in a yoga position. It serves to balance, stretch, and tone the body/mind. I started doing yoga years ago to help support a chronic back/spine issue:>)

          "do you think positively in every situation?"

          I do not catagorize thoughts as positive or negative. Thoughts are simply thoughts, and may provide information.

          My friends live in Pylos.....yes.....we may share time together...it would be lovely:>)
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        May 9 2013: Hi Colleen ,nice to meet you,thanks for your replying.
        I liked your quotes ! I was impressed by your sayings 'To have something to forgive, we would first have had to blame and judge, which I do not perceive to be a very valuable practice.' and 'If we accept responsibility for what we feel, there is no reason to blame the other person, and no reason to forgive anything'
        Does it mean that they are all related to our feelings? I mean that if we take responsibility for what we feel , can we eliminate or ignore our pain?
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          May 9 2013: Hello Thetisd....very nice to meet you too:>)

          No, I do not suggest ignoring anything, and believe it is very important to recognize ALL our feelings and emotions. It is beneficial to feel pain. I do not think/feel that it is beneficial to hold onto pain.

          With the recognition of ALL our feelings, we understand that what we are feeling belongs totally to us, and not to another person. A person may do or say something horrible to us, and how we act or react is a choice....... KNOW THYSELF.

          If a person says something demeaning, cruel, unkind to, or about me for example, that is a reflection of the person saying it, and doesn't have anything to do with me. I listen to the information and evaluate it as information. Could there be any truth in the information? Am I like that?

          I have gotten enough feedback, and evaluated myself enough in my life to know my "self" pretty well. I consider ALL information to evaluate whether or not it applies to me, and my actions/reactions reflect that process to the best of my ability at any given time.

          I think/feel it is important to genuinely consider the information, rather than instantly be hurt with a "knee jerk" reaction. It helps to give ourselves that evaluation time. Does that comment honestly reflect something about me? Does that person's actions have anything to do with me? Another person's actions, are that person's choice....are they not?

          Good discussion topic Thetisd, and BTW.....I LOVE Greece....I have friends there and visited a couple times:>)

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