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Marriage is ....... ?
Please complete the sentence and then list your key ideas or points for or against marriage?
Closing Statement from Kate Blake
Thanks heaps to everyone who contributed! TEDsters do reflect a good cross section of society and the responses below demonstrate that. Thanks TED for the forum.
Marriage is so many things to so many people! The history of this church/state institution was touched on, others refer to it as Holy matrimony. Same gender marriage was hotly debated. Others said marriage was greatly overrated. Singles, married, divorced and those of various beliefs participated. So the comments below are well worth reading!
We had a few stayers who were married for nearly sixty years and Don shared some of his story as he works to reunite with his wife of many years. Some commenters have not ventured there yet and had idealistic views. One thought he was the authority so Chris posted his comments at the top completely out of context from the discussion where Colleen debated his views, and I questioned his use of terms that inflamed but it all adds to the flavor!
This conversation ran in tandem with another I started on "Divorce should be easy and accessible" the link is posted below. Both these arose from my concern that people make more informed choices about marriage or divorce by knowing about the for and against.
There is no black or white solutions only grey areas that impact on both families, neighbors, colleagues, etc. Participating in quality premarital counseling was considered essential. This usually covers issues such as religion, politics, finances, child rearing, family relationships, etc so that expectations are more grounded.
Using Barbara de Angelis "Are you the one for me?" as a workbook will help more objective recognition of our patterns and enable us to make healthier choices in our relationships!
Nothing is ideal and we were blessed with mature examples of those who are happily married for many years.
http://www.ted.com/conversations/17252/divorce_should_be_cheap_and_ac.html
Chris Kelly 20+
The current explosion of red equal signs on Facebook and Twitter is indicative of the hot-button issue of 'equal rights' for same-gender "marriage".
While same-gendered couples certainly deserve equal rights under the laws of the Constitution of the United States of America, there is still controversy about the use of the word 'marriage'.
Same gendered couples can have legal unions, they can have partnerships, they are entitled to the same tax benefits as married heterosexual couples. But even if they get married in a state that allows it, even if they refer to it as a 'marriage', they can never be "married" in accordance with the original meaning of the word, which is a pledge of faithfulness, a promise, a vow between a man and a woman.
So ... this is America ... just change the meaning of the word, right?
In the 1940's being 'gay' meant being cheerful and happy. In recent decades it has come to mean homosexuality and more recently has morphed into an insult of anything disliked. "That's so gay."
With regard to why (according to the origin of the word) marriage "should be" or "has to be" between a man and a woman, it is based in the fact that only the natural sexual union between a man and a woman results in the generation of life.
As same-gender sexual acts cannot generate life, thus, it is a "degenerate" act.
The origin of marriage was a sacred act; a vow, a promise between two spiritual initiates, involving the use of their physical nature to advance their spiritual evolution. They would make sacred vows to each other in a ceremony called "Holy Matrimony" which was a spiritual contract.
Kate Blake 50+
I don't like this game you are playing ....
Colleen Steen 500+
Kate Blake 50+
Chris Kelly 20+
Under the terms of this spiritual contract a man and woman would engage in 'sacred sexuality', sometimes under the instruction of a 'high priest'. It was sacrosanct, purposeful, meaningful, spiritual and physical. Thus "Holy" Matrimony.
Marriage changes with the times. Some people have a romantic sense about it. Some have a business sense about it.
Today I saw a commercial for "The View" ... one of the guests provide an internet service solely for the sake of providing a place for married people to meet people with whom to cheat.
If you go on any Craigslist site for any city, it is filled with married people looking to have sex with someone other than their spouse.
As I said, marriage is ... different things to different people.
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Colleen Steen 500+
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Colleen Steen 500+
Your statement, as you wrote it is...." As same-gender sexual acts cannot generate life, thus, it is a "degenerate" act." I did not "override" anything Chris. I read what you wrote and responded to it. I do not agree that it is a "degenerate" act, and if you want to believe that, so be it.
I understand you were refering to the homosexual act as an abomination, and using the bible as a reference. I do not have any "block up", nor do I have any problem with comprehension. I am reading the words you wrote and responding to exactly what you wrote. I do not agree that the homosexual act, or same sex marriage is an abomination. I believe people have the right to choose who they want as a partner to share their life with. I do not agree that it is a "beastly act". You can try to justily your perception however you like. I do not agree. Disagreement is not the same as lack of comprehension, although that is an argument some folks use at times.
I understand what the bible is Chris, and I also understand the concept of creation. Again, I do not have comprehension issues.
Kate Blake 50+
Your use of the words generate and degenerate tread a fine line. Maybe procreate or produce offspring, etc would be less inflammatory?
Colleen Steen 500+
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Colleen Steen 500+
Again, I used your exact words.....the words you wrote, which are still in your comments on this thread. There is no point in continuing to say "That is not what I said"!
I agree....there are many ways to "advance our spiritual evolution". I do not agree that same sex couples cannot experience the same spiritual journey and evolution.
I understand that the bible is a story, with many interpretations.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
It seems to be a human social cultural construct. So the view of what it is will vary depending on the time and place as well as personal views, religious dogma etc. Over time legal rights and obligations have also been enacted regarding marriage.
I suggest a more important question is what should marriage be.
Kate Blake 50+
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Kate Blake 50+
Yusuf Khan
(im not yet married, though that what i think it should be)
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
For the young ones who are contemplating it, my advice would be : delay it as long as you can.
The only guarantee of your partner will choose to stay with you is love, trust and understanding and there are no divine decree about those.
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Colleen Steen 500+
Perhaps you could do a little more research regarding your understanding of the "meaning" of marriage. You seem to be projecting your own biases in your comment.
"While it is a relatively new practice to grant same-sex couples the same form of legal marital recognition as commonly granted to mixed-sex couples, there is some history of recorded same-sex unions around the world.[76] It is believed that same-sex unions were celebrated in Ancient Greece and Rome,[76] some regions of China, such as Fujian, and at certain times in ancient European history.[77] A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) issued in 342 CE imposed severe penalties or death on same-sex marriage in ancient Rome[78] but the exact intent of the law and its relation to social practice is unclear, as only a few examples of same-sex marriage in that culture exist.[79]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage
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Colleen Steen 500+
I also read your statement...
"Same gendered couples can have legal unions, they can have partnerships, they are entitled to the same tax benefits as married heterosexual couples. But even if they get married in a state that allows it, even if they refer to it as a 'marriage', they can never be "married" in accordance with the original meaning of the word, which is a pledge of faithfulness, a promise, a vow between a man and a woman."
That is your own personal befief, because, as we well know, same sex marriages are recognized legally in some places, by some people, and I provided a link, which gives us a little information about the origin of the word marriage, which does not seem consistant with your belief. My personal belief, is that to exclude anyone because their sexual preference is not the same as yours, appears to be prejudice and bias.
You state: "As same-gender sexual acts cannot generate life, thus, it is a "degenerate" act."
Degenerate: "having declined; having sunk to a condition below that which is normal; peculiarly corrupt..."
This again, is your personal belief Chris, and has nothing to do with whether a couple is able to "generate life".
Whether couples are same sex, or opposite sex, they still have the ability to make a sincere promise to each other and themselves, and advance their spiritual evolution. If you cannot understand that, you are limiting your beliefs.
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Colleen Steen 500+
I don't think I missed any of your points Chris. I read what you wrote carefully, and responded. Continually telling me I missed your point, don't understand or comprehend what you are saying doesn't make any sense. Your perspective seems clear to me Chris, and I do not agree. Again....disagreeing is not the same as lack of comprehension.
I understand that same -gender coupling can never be a marriage ACCORDING TO YOU Chris. Many folks in our world recognize the rights of ALL people.
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Colleen Steen 500+
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Colleen Steen 500+
Kate Blake 50+
Colleen Steen 500+
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Colleen Steen 500+
You already refered to same sex marriage as a "degenerate act", and you are trying to conflate it with cheating and having sex with someone other than a spouse. That doesn't seem very christian of you.
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Colleen Steen 500+
I have NOT judged you, nor am I hypocritical. Are you projecting?
Again, I will provide the definition of "degenerate".
"Degenerate: "having declined; having sunk to a condition below that which is normal; peculiarly corrupt...""
Yes Chris, I understand the difference between an "act" and a "marriage".....then.....of course.....there is the act of marriage...or....the marriage act:>)
I do not know why the bible refers to homosexuality as an abomination. It doesn't make much sense does it. ESPECIALLY when the bible also says we should love and accept each other because we are all made in the likeness of god?
If you believe that people can only ascend spirituality through sex between a man and a woman, so be it. That is not my belief.
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Colleen Steen 500+
I think I understand you quite well, and to the best of my knowledge, this is an open, public forum, so I think I am within my rights to respond to your comments, as you have responded to my comments:>)
I KNOW your comment about cheating spouses had nothing to do with your comment about same-gender marriage or same-gender sexuality, which is EXACTLY why I suggested that you were conflating, which is what you just confirmed....thank you:>)
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Colleen Steen 500+
I realize that your original comment spoke of YOUR PERCEPTION of the term marriage, and I also posted a link, which gives us information regarding the origin.
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Colleen Steen 500+
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Kate Blake 50+
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Kate Blake 50+
I am keen to hear more about blissful healing, sounds like some thing we all need? Just when you have the time as I sense you are very busy just now.
Silas Birdsell
W. Ying 10+
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But two man or women can not reach such a perfect state.
It is because of human ultra-high accuracy.
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Colleen Steen 500+
W. Ying 10+
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.--- To Colleen Steen's reply just above (2 hours ago) ---
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The everyday common sense tells me so.
Wrong?
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--------------------------------------------------------------
**** The following is a reply to Colleen Steen's reply just below ****
Hi, Colleen, thank you very much!
I am very much interested in discussing with you.
It really helps me a lot.
My answers to your present 2 questions are:
(1) Most people's everyday common sense.
. . .(Is common sense the science proved many times in everyday life?)
(2) I am not "uncomfortable with same sex partnerships" because
. . .it is naturally unavoidable special cases.
Please do correct me!
Colleen Steen 500+
Colleen Steen 500+
I discovered your edit to the previous comment:>) Discussions, in which we can share thoughts, feelings and ideas respectfully are always enjoyable:>)
Common Sense:
"Whichever definition is used, identifying particular items of knowledge as "common sense" is difficult."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
"Common Sense" seems to be subjective, based on what information a person has at any given time.
If we look at your statement..."But two man or women can not reach such a perfect state."
Your common sense (information and knowledge you have at this time), tells you that same sex partners cannot reach the same kind of "perfect state" that can be reached by opposite sex partners......correct? That, to you, based on information you have is "common sense".
I have lots of friends who are same sex partners, and lots of friends who are opposite sex partners. I witness their interactions all the time, and some of us have talked extensively about this idea. My "common sense" based on information, observation and experience I have at this time, tells me that same sex partners certainly CAN have the same level of loving, committed relationship as opposite sex partners.
Colleen Steen 500+
Marriage does not have to be between a man and a woman. I live in one of the first states to legalize same sex marriage, and I'm proud of that.
You have presented some EXCELLENT reasons why same sex partners can and do have just as intimate of a relationship, satisfying the needs of the family, same sex partners are just as capable of earning an income and as concerned for the emotional well being of children. As a person with lots of friends who are same sex partners, some with children, I totally agree with you that the gender of a parent doesn't matter, as much as a parent's responsibility and willingness to love the child.
I observe your "thinking" Silas as RIGHT ON, and it is only people who may be afraid of this topic, or who disagree with you, who may suggest otherwise.
Sean Brother
A warm and nice promise about living together for ever.
A strong and solid promise to help and to support all along the time they remain together.
And much more.
sainath Chubby
Kate Blake 50+
edward long 100+
Thaddea Thompson
edward long 100+
Thaddea Thompson
edward long 100+
W. Ying 10+
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"The independence is equal" negligibly;
"the dependence mutual" substantially.
Rhona Pavis 50+
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Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Points for marriage: same as points for commitment - responsibility and care for the loved ones.
Points against marriage: same as points against commitment - limits on personal freedom.
Is marriage necessary? No, as long as there is commitment. But why not?
Can there be marriage without commitment? It's a house without foundation.
Same sex marriage? Why not if there is commitment?
Pengkun Yuan
W. Ying 10+
It is instinct ---- our ancestors' successful experiences for keeping our DNA alive.
..
.
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Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
W. Ying 10+
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Thanks!
A child is a new carrier of parents' DNA
in order to pass the DNA eternally.
Wrong?
.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
W. Ying 10+
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Yes!
"One does not need to marry to have children" .
But, is it difficult to bring up children healthily ?
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
But it seems to me that marriage is always associated with some kind of social contract between people (not only spouses, but families, community, and state as well) which often has to do with issues much wider than "passing on DNA" - property, estate management, citizenship, etc. I believe, associating marriage with sexual love is a fairly recent invention.
Casey Christofaris 10+
W. Ying 10+
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Our instincts determine it be "unconditional" and "romantic".
Robert Galway 30+
carolyn mcauley 20+
Mette Jensen
If you find someone you love, whatever sex, love them, live with them, be faithful and enjoy a happy life together. That's all you need.
george lockwood 30+
W. Ying 10+
"Marriage is" a primary symbiosis ----
one of our ancestors' vital successful experiences.
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(For details, see the 1st article, point 6, at
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D&id=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D%21283&sc=documents)
..