Bushy Van Eck

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Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?

If God is truly a God of Love then why would God not stop a tragedy? I have often asked myself this question. Thousands of posts on Facebook after the recent shootings in Connecticut prove we all have the same question. Our hearts were torn apart in such a way that our country is now fighting over gun control to prevent this from ever happening again. The pain is just too unbearable to think of this ever happening to one of our own children. The question still remains, no matter what we do, “Why would God allow this to happen”? I believe many people questioned their faith at times of tragedy.
What IF?
What if this tragedy, these beautiful people that lost their lives, bring us to a new understanding of God in a much more meaningful way. What if we realized, now more than ever, we are a part of each and every person that lost their life on that day? What if we realize they will never be lost because collectively, we all died that day? The world did come to an end on Dec 14th 2012 as we once knew it. There is no longer a need for a question like “Why Would God Allow a Tragedy” but a realization that God is there in every past, present and future moment. Because God gave us freewill to be who we are.

God Bless to those whose life was tragically taken, we love you forever…………………..

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    Mar 11 2013: The way I see it is that God could have done nothing about it, which means he's not omni-anything or he did not care to, which makes him grotesque.

    I think the worse response would be to say that such events were all part of Gods plan
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    Mar 11 2013: I don't understand the question. Who should God protect, believers, non believer, both? What are the rules here, which rule book are you using? Why single out the tragedy of Dec 14th? Tragedies happen everyday. Is one any more meaningful than the next, or any more tragic than any other? Floods, war, disease, famine, murders.....its all the same.
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      Mar 11 2013: Theodore
      Thank you for your comment. Tragedies do happen every moment and who’s to say you or I won’t be here tomorrow. I brought up Dec 14th because there is no greater lose than of our children. I laterally was in tears as I wrote about this. I agree with you, no tragedies are less of meaning and loss. But I believe what happened on Dec 14th brought out so much heartfelt feelings it has affected most Americans personally. I have grandchildren, when I went to their school for lunch they did a background check on me first. What is this world coming to? Is God protecting those that are non believers? I will answer these questions in time. I will delay some of my responses until I have received sufficient challenges for the simple reason that I will then categorize it and start with the most common questions.
      Thank you Bushy
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        Mar 11 2013: Re: "there is no greater lose than of our children"

        How so? Please explain.
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          Mar 11 2013: ZX Style,
          My observation, is that it is not questions which discredit, but rather, answers.....or lack of answers.

          Atheists are "extreme in their beliefs...", "less tolerant" and "more aggressive", "hating mentality"? You are labeling a whole group of people based on your own beliefs? And you accuse others of being "less tolerant"???
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          Mar 11 2013: ZX Style,
          I disagree that "questioning every assumption makes discussions like these extensive for little reason." You may prefer that we all simply accept everything you say without question, and that is probably not going to happen:>)

          I agree..."discussion with religion involved some people tend to get aggressive...". If you insightfully notice that ZX Style, why do you do it? Whenever there is a discussion about god/no god, there are going to be people with different beliefs. Intolerance, labeling and name calling is not going to help our global community.

          The last name is my ex-husbands....Norwegian
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          Mar 15 2013: It felt like you were "upset" ZX Style. Catagorizing, labeling and name calling is not going to resolve an "upset" issue for people.....as I'm sure you know. Point taken....I understand that you do not approve of "ranting".....I do not enjoy "ranting" either:>)

          Nothing to be sorry about concerning my name and my "ex" ZX Style. We are very good friends, and I kept the name because I like it.....otherwise, I would have changed it....it's a choice:>)

          I am aware that Steen is a common name in Norway, and it means "stone" in Norwegian as well.

          Now, my name and marital status are not the topic of this discussion, so I respectfully end comments about me and my name here. Thank you:>)
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        Mar 12 2013: Danke
        Thank You ZX for your comment. To be honest I posted this question to open up conversations about God because of the many (not “all” like I stated and would retract) but many posts I read on Facebook questioning “why would God would let this happen”? I started to question religion when I realized as I grew up that there were many more beliefs than what my parent’s church had taught me. As I began to mature, I realized that each person has their own belief system. Sure people can change their mind at any time. And that is the beauty of it all. The key word here is REASON. I have spent my entire life seeking out the true meaning to our existence with 25 years of painstaking research. Quantum Physics, Atoms, the Universe, and our Brains you name it. I discovered a unique connection in all matter of the universe. Think “Push Us Forward” rather than, but similar to “Pay it Forward” What I found was that on the Micro level there was a miracle taking place on the atomic level. This now allowed me to finally understand the meaning of how God, or our higher self, or whatever you may believe to be all knowing. That there is indeed a singularity of all knowledge. But I am not to judge how others interpreted my findings. They are however scientifically sound and I will debate any and all. Yes Dutch
        My you enjoy a beautiful life.
        Bushy
  • Mar 17 2013: yes but it does cause harm just not physically but mentally it does and the mental is what causes the physical so yes it does harm others and i get what your trying to say with that example but the world would be a better place if we all had set morals and ideas instead of all of us making our own up it would decrease violence dramatically and ignorance would disappear entirely
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      Mar 17 2013: I did consider that there could be mental harm and agree with you to some extend.
      One person I studied was Krishnamurti http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php and his thoughts on observation. By quieting our own thoughts to become an observer in a situation we can have better understanding. You would gain sensitivity for another and have insight so that your conversations were not intrusive. But where I agree with you is that does not seem to be taking place in the real world. The key word is seem.
      Through observation and years of painstaking research I believe we are on a spiraling path upwards. The first signs of physical life consisting of highly advanced atomic structures unified into molecules collectively functioning as cells. From the beginning there was unification. But there is also a constant recycling going on at the same time. Not one cell a person is born with is still there when they reach age seven. I believe collectively as atoms unified, human mankind is on the same path. Each individual seeing themselves from their own pivotal viewpoint.
      • Mar 17 2013: i completely agree with you on listening and having empathy for one another it's one skill i take real pride in because yes your right we all start our equal on the moral playing field it is our environment that creates ignorance and bias but that environment of bias has always been strongly linked to spirituality and primitive man's attempt at understanding the world around him in his limited field of understanding and i also understand that when you are intrusive people generally just shut you off and listen to nothing of your words also your right that we are the same (other than differing IQ) at birth but i don't agree that we are all on the same path maybe evolution wise but even that has vast diversity just like there is vast diversity in races and cultures everyone is mostly stuck in their own upbringing rarely being able to see outside of it and if we were all on the same wavelength (religion and genetics) empathy would be much stronger but our differences repel each other creating ignorance and hatred
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      Mar 17 2013: Egocentric Individualistic Entities.
      Each and every organism at a lower level plays an integral role in the formation of a higher level of creation. If it had to insist on its own little egocentric individualistic being, then its very own creation would serve no purpose. This pyramid of unification certainly does not end with humans being far from the top. Across all levels of unified awareness time is the unified summation hence the accumulation of the sum of all that is part and parcel from within. As such individualism can only exist with the acknowledgement that its very existence is based on the unification of lower levels of individualism but yet in itself only forms an integral part of something much greater existing on a higher level. Once you get to realize this it would make you acutely aware that by treating individuals on the same level of existence as yourself with disrespect and in an ill manner you as an entity are nothing more than a cancerous cell. As such you are a danger to that which exists on a higher level standing against the very purpose of evolution and becomes a threat for its survival. Only by eradicating these cancerous entities can evolution be safeguarded towards a higher level of existence.
      • Mar 17 2013: yes everyone person no matter how little has a role in the big picture of society just like one ant is a part of a colony and i also agree with you that if an individual focuses only on itself its creation was for nothing and even worse than nothing because these individuals harm others in that they do not aid the overall society but with humans and modern society these individuals have no repercussions and many cultures actually influence them with positivity into their own egocentricity and i don't get what you mean by "This pyramid of unification certainly does not end with humans being far from the top" you mean that we are inferior compared to how we will evolve later on? and the truth is we are not all on the same level because a person of "special" needs is nowhere on the same level as an nuclear physicist who wins a nobel prize this is because nobody is on the same level as one another once they have adopted their own individuality based of their tiny window of their upbringings hence halting or changing someone who is a damage upon the higher society actually improves society as a whole because you have it the wrong way around it is the individuals who egocentricity leads to ignorance and irrationality that are the cancerous cells and they can be fixed to better our species as a whole with your thinking anyone who changes the minds of others is damaging society so what about teachers? pastors? and any and every scientist?
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    Mar 15 2013: Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?

    Assumes a god exists.

    Assumes an interventionist god.

    No proof of either I suggest.
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      Mar 15 2013: yes I agree no proof as in other than what perceptions we have. Do you feel it is okay to accept knowledge or an ultimate intelligence as God? If there could be a scientific understanding of knowledge accumulated into one source, would that be proof then? Science seem to headed in that direction.
      Thanks for the comment.
      Bushy
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        Mar 17 2013: Hi Bushy, I suggest knowledge is knowing and understanding stuff. I would not personify it unless there is some reason or evidence to do so.

        An ultimate intelligence just seems to be a human construct, an idea, a hypothetical concept.

        Similarly some people call the universe god. I just call it the universe.

        If there were evidence for gods I would accept that. But coming up with hypothetical constructs is not evidence.

        That does not mean I assert that gods don't exist. Just no compelling evidence in my view.
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    Mar 15 2013: The suffering we see in the world is due in part to natural forces and also human actions.

    Earthquakes are not caused by humans.

    The fact we will age and die and most diseases are not caused by humans.

    The fact that most animals have evolved to survive by eating or killing other living things is not caused by humans.

    A creator goddess would be responsible for both the natural non human causes of suffering and the nature of humans.

    While the existence of this suffering is more consistent with a naturalistic evolutionary perspective is does not disprove the existence of some creative agency. However, it does not support claims that this agency is all loving.

    The free will argument is insufficient to explain the suffering and does not excuse the creator.

    The god moves in mysterious ways argument is a cop out.

    I guess many old religious constructs try to explain human suffering in different ways. The Hebrew bible talks about adam and eve disobeying god and being cast out of Eden is a divine hissy fit. My understanding is some Christian views see this original sin tainting us all. This is completely immoral. And then we have the ultimate suffering via this god casting those who don’t follow the rules into the fiery hell it created to punish us for all eternal. This god even knows in advance which of us are going to hell. What a wicked set up. This is the epitome of evil, worse than any human genocide, torture and cruelty. And yet some cling to the belief this god is all loving. Go figure?
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      Mar 14 2013: Yes I do
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      Mar 15 2013: Yes I do Chris, and it has nothing to do with a god, or the belief in a prayer to a god. As thinking, feeling, evolving human beings, we make choices in every moment of the life experience. If a person believes that our life is all directed by a god, so be it. I respect everyone's individual belief AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT ADVERSLY IMPACT OTHER PEOPLE. When you insist that other people's beliefs are a "wrong choice" you are simply showing us your intolerace for other people and other beliefs, which are free choices for all of us. Do you not see your contradiction?.
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        Mar 15 2013: Oh I was answering that I forgive Hitler and all that trespass against me/we/us.

        I am 100% pro choice on everything and I agree as long as it does not harm other without others consent but no I do not see the contradiction
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          Mar 25 2013: Casey,
          To me, Chris Kelly's statement feels like a contradiction....

          "God does not allow tragedies in the life of men, WE do. We have all the instruction on how to live in accordance with Gods law, yet through our 'free will', we choose to use it, rather than allowing Gods will to work through us. That is the ultimate wrong choice."

          A god gives us free will and the instruction on how to live in accordance with "gods law".
          We use our free will, which god has given us, and it is the "wrong choice"???
    • Mar 16 2013: ok im going to shoot this down right at the beginning god Never! gave us a life instruction many many MANY fanatics have said they received the message from him and in turn created a religion receiving messages from god is letting your own subconscious mind tell you what to do which is VERY wrong our subconscious mind is instinct and possible hidden factors that make you have a bias or abstract view on life there has been many who listened to religion and since religion was created by man it's faulted and ALWAYS leads to bias and damage to other humans
      Colleen-i like your tolerant behavior attitude but if you don't tell someone something is wrong are you not damaging society as a whole by letting that person go around with a false perception of reality which in turn may spread to others and cause bias and intolerance because they wont change their minds? if someone told you the earth is in the center of the universe would you just say ok thats your belief and let them continuing with that faulty knowledge and possibly spreading the idea making the problem worse?
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        Mar 25 2013: Charles,
        Thank you for liking my tolerant attitude:>) I perceive tolerance to be preferable to the alternative, and if I did not practice tolerance, I would be the same as those who say they are good christians and are intolerant of others.
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      Mar 14 2013: Yes and the faster we can learn those lesson the faster we become clean. I would also say it has to do with the 3rd law of movement.
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    Mar 12 2013: Read the book of Job. It's all there.

    This seems to be a wrong question to ask. Instead, I suggest to focus on the question how we, as humans, react to such events: with anger, bitterness, and contempt towards ourselves, each other, and God; or with grief, empathy, and love.
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      Mar 13 2013: The book of Job kind of shows Yahweh is a .........and that humans are his playthings, and it likes burnt offerings (kind of primitive).

      Mind you this is the same god who the bible claims committed global genocide via the flood.

      Destroyed cities, sent plagues, took animal and human sacrifices etc etc etc etc.

      I personally wouldn't go looking to the god of the bible if looking for a god of love unless you want to cherry pick.

      I'm not saying this to be provocative, Just there seems to be a big disconnect between the god described in many parts of the bible and this concept of a loving god. Although who knows what god Bushy is referring too. Seems everyone has a different idea of what god is consistent with there being no reliable information about its existence or nature.

      I agree with your intent in regards to humans considering our actions and responses.
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        Mar 13 2013: The book of Job is perplexing, no doubt. What you say is one way to look at it. And many people look at it that way. I think, it's a normal reaction when you read it with your mind. I read it 3 times before I realized that the book of Job (and the Bible) is not as much about God as it is about humans. The book of Job is about what we think and say to ourselves and to each other in case of such tragedies. What God does in it is not the point.

        The disconnect between god described in different parts of the Bible is disconnect within ourselves. Mind you that YHWH means "I am". So, when you say "the book of Job kind of shows Yahweh is a .... and that humans are his playthings, and it likes burnt offerings", you say that about yourself. Bible is merely a mirror of humanity. If you don't like what you read there, it's totally understandable :-).
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          Mar 14 2013: I agree we can often see many sides to a story and take many insights, especially a big book.

          I agree religious writings are man made and reflect human thinking and behaviours.
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        Mar 14 2013: See, our worldviews are not as incompatible as they may seem :-).

        Wherever we look, we may see gloom and doom, atrocities, absurdities, and contradictions leading to worry and undue anxiety. But we can also see similarities, deep analogies, consistency, and wisdom leading to peace within ourselves and between ourselves.

        "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
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          Mar 15 2013: There is a lot of truth in that.

          Perhaps the challenge is to work around this tendency to better understanding and solutions
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    Mar 11 2013: Bushy,
    If you truly believe that "God gave us freewill to be who we are", as you write in your introduction, why do you need to question if she/he/it "allows" tragedy? There is tragedy caused by humans who make certain choices, as you point out with your reference to a tragedy. And there are certain processes in nature that cause tragedy for some people (earthquakes, floods, etc.) We DO NOT "all have the same question" . It is good that people question their faith....questioning is always good. What if....tragedy caused by humans...brings us to a new understanding of humans and freewill? I wholeheartedly agree that we are all energetically connected, and I do not believe that connection to be orchestrated by a god.

    The world, as we knew it did not "come to an end on Dec.14th 2012"....unless.....that is the belief you as an individual choose to embrace. I agree..."There is no longer a need for a question like “Why Would God Allow a Tragedy” ". That question has been asked throughout history, and if you want to continue to ask it.....carry on!
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    Mar 11 2013: To which god are you referring? If you were to ask, "Why does God-as revealed in the Holy BIble, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ- allow a tragedy?", then I, and many others, could offer our opinions. As stated, however, I don't know to which of the myriad possible concepts and beliefs you are referring.
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      Mar 11 2013: Hi Edward

      There can only be one God, however it's not for me to judge or tell you by which name to define God.
      I have always been open minded and would certainly like to hear from you. After all, is this type of discussions not just another form of missionary work and as such what we’re meant to do other than holding our opinions to ourselves. Deliberating only with those believing in the same God would not yield any success other than to stagnate.

      Non-believers have the right to do so and I certainly respect them for that as long as they in turn respect my viewpoints.
      I’m of the opinion that the non-believers entertaining these discussions have a deeply hidden subconscious desire wanting to believe, desperately seeking for a reason to do so, but then it’s just my opinion.
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        Mar 11 2013: Bushy,
        You say..."after all, is this type of discussions not just another form of missionary work and as such what we’re meant to do other than holding our opinions to ourselves. Deliberating only with those believing in the same God would not yield any success other than to stagnate."

        So, this discussion is your "missionary work". That is EXACTLY what it appears to be. I respect your beliefs Bushy, and I'm not sure if the TED sites are for the purpose of doing "missionary work"....that sounds like your particular agenda.

        You are of the opinion that "non-believers entertaining these discussions have a deeply hidden subconscious desire wanting to believe, desperately seeking for a reason to do so...."
        And you say you are "open minded"???
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          Mar 11 2013: Hi Colleen
          Missionary work comes in many forms. Some do missionary work to sell their religions; others do so to sell themselves. Which missionary work are you up to as I’m here to broaden my outlook on life and to share my opinions to those that so wish to entertain my ideas.

          The question we should ask is why we are even having this type of discussion between the two of us, desperately trying to bring each other down, trying to drag others into our futile attacks. If it’s all about walking away from this the winner by trying to impress everyone else on this forum then pleases except the Trophy, you have won. I will personally go to each one of your conversations and give you the thumbs up helping you to get to a thousand brownie points. If we continue this line of arrogance then we’re certainly both going to loose the respect of the other participants as were not contributing to any constructive input.

          One last thing I would like you to consider before I bid you farewell.

          These forums are like a large shopping mall with a lot of different outlets. If you happen to walk into one of these outlets and they don’t happen to sell your particular brand then you should rather save your money but especially your time and find a shop where you can get value for your money but especially your time.
          Who knows, if you hang on and continue your participation you might still find something of value but then only if both of us participate in a constructive manner.
          Greetings
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        Mar 11 2013: Yes Bushy,
        I understand that missionary work comes in many forms. Yes Bushey, I am aware that you want to share your opnions to those that so wish to entertian YOUR ideas. What about those who have different ideas?

        I don't feel "desperate", nor am I trying to "bring each other down....trying to drag others into our futile attacks". That is YOUR program......not mine.

        Yes....absulutely...."something of value" can only be achieved when people participate in a constructive manner.
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    Mar 17 2013: Freewill is nothing other than the marketing of the end products resultant from the thoughts of the subconscious. As such freewill is the shopping malls of the mind and however you choose to entertain those thoughts will ultimately define your destiny. Freewill is and always will be there for you to embrace no matter what the circumstances. It’s up to each and every mortal to either embrace it or choose to conform to the thought process of others which often lack integrity. The latter would then be nothing less than subjecting yourself to the freewill of others getting to make decisions on your behalf most often not beneficial for the majority of humanity. It might be neither good nor bad but then it’s for you to decide having the freedom of choice to do so. Unfortunately we live in a world where most decisions are made based on the fear of ridicule, rejection and pear pressure.
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        Mar 16 2013: Thank You Mary I believe I need an editor! Correction made.
        Bushy
    • Mar 16 2013: hate to keep commenting my beliefs here Bushy but that is one thing i believe society needs to change completely let me give an exaggerated example: lets say you meet this man who believes all other races should be killed or put into slavery would it be morally right to just accept his beliefs and let him continue spreading his dangerous and irrational mindset to others? we stop them if they are insane? why not just let all the insane people out of the looney bin and let them believe what they want? if we don't stop individuals from believing whatever they feel like they will just believe whatever their mind makes up as rational from the information they have even if that would lead to an impartial decision and that in turns set their beliefs to that the problem with this is it leads to irrationality racism ignorance and genocide we need a society that is open minded about everything one where we have set ideas and knowledge that cannot be misinterpreted this would make man enlightened to a new level and we could finally focus on improving our world but this is an impossible dream in my lifetime our world is filled with acceptance of certain irrationality and not all of it and that is simply Wrong
  • Mar 16 2013: yes and you will just ignore this one and come up with some irrational explanation for the things i said so you can keep believing in your modern god so i said this for nothing
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      Mar 16 2013: I do not believe I have nor will I ignore your beliefs or non beliefs. My question is can you tolerate someone that believes different than your own? Can we just accept our differences and move on appreciating each other for more than just our beliefs?
      • Mar 16 2013: i answered that in my other comment yes i do actually i am a very accepting person but i wonder is it right to do that if you know the truth and the other person does not?
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          Mar 17 2013: Charles, my answer would be as long as neither one of our views, beliefs, etc. would cause intent to harm each other, then it would be appropriate. This would always leave open the possibilities for more discussion, persuasion and so forth. What if you and I were both hunters and we both were successful in each killing a deer. I said a prayer for the animal giving its live to feed my family and you said this was a good day not having any need to say a prayer. Then so happens some environmentalists jog by and yell “murderers”! We both look at each other in amazement and say “they’re crazy”. Need I say more?
  • Mar 16 2013: yes and the man who keeps believing his faith no matter what is ignorant and ignorance breed bias behavior yes it's pivotal but what i was trying to say is that you are not predestined or attached to any god it was pure luck you were born the way you were and raised the way you were making believe the things you do it just shows how weak religion is and how unspiritual this world really is science should be religion not abstract ideas assumed from your own nature about things you cannot comprehend because our knowledge base is very small some day we will completely destroy religion with science and humanity will become an enlightened species because of it and yes you are right about the last part with people just walking away they simply do not have the open-mindedness and will power to control their own bias to allow them to be educated
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      Mar 16 2013: Charles Thank You sharing your comments. All comments are welcome to give us a better understanding of each other.
  • Mar 16 2013: yes but this brings up the question that no Christian can answer if god is all powerful and doesn't help us he either doen't care about us or isn't all powerful and all powerful god could stop the shooting easier than the snapping of your fingers when it obviously doesn't help society and mankind as a whole just like all tragedies like another one you definitely can't say is beneficial to humans would be the catholic persecution and killings in the medieval times god could have changed the whole mindset of every human involved in it and made them love each other and work to the common good but he didn't which brings me back to he either doesn't care or he can't care and the only way to makes all of this logical is to come to the conclusion that there is no god and ALL religion is false and that we are as important in the universe as the vast number of ants burrowing the ground beneath your feet
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      Mar 16 2013: I feel it all ends up on the believer, him or herself. It is apparent that people do question their God in times of personal lose. After what happened last year and reading many posts, I asked myself for a greater understanding? I had an opening of the mind moment for me and I realized what freewill was on a higher level. In a deep moment of sadness, for the lose of these beautiful people, I had a new understanding of freewill and why there can be no intervention that blocks a mans actions.
      • Mar 16 2013: no it's not up to you you have no free will in this situation you believe what you are brought up in if you were raised an atheist you would be an atheist you may hate the bad things that happen to you and maybe question god why? and this is healthy you trust this god to help you in all things and work your life to your benefit but he simply doesn't and your life has many events that never help help you and just damage you this is because you are not important which is a tough thing for humans to grasp you are NOT special and you do not have a personal deity watching out for you believe this if you are scared of the truth but me i got the balls to look at life for the abyss it is and do the best i can in it
        and so if you had an opening and greater way to understand god you care to share this ultimate knowledge?
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          Mar 16 2013: An observation: A man of faith continues to believe his beliefs no matter what another man does not believe. A man who believes in nothingness continues to believe no matter what another man of faith believes. These two men see life from their own pivotal view.
          It is a possibility offered in an opinion from my 25 years of research to come to a better understanding of our universe and our perceptions thereof.
          Here you might find an understanding. But it won't come easily and you will have to study, absorb and reflect. Most people would walk away or reject a thought that they do not comprehend in 5 minutes.
          I have tried to put my theory in as understandable as possible format.
          http://www.transparencing.com/
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        Mar 17 2013: Hi bushy.

        Freewill does not explain all the non human causes of suffering.
        Like earthquakes and disease.

        Also a god could easily have set up a situation where spirits have choices without harming other spirits. Seems if we have a god it set up a situation where most animals evolved to survive by eating and killing other living things and humans can harm each other, and the weather, disease, floods, famines etc can cause suffering.
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    Mar 13 2013: A small story: An old man aged 80 years is crying in a temple in front of God idol. Few people around him asked for reason. He took them to his home where there a 45 year old man lying in a bed all these 45 years. He pointed at him and told he is my son. All these years I took good care of him and now I am afraid that who will take care of him after his death. Others looked at the old man and asked: "Why did you carry this burden all these years?". The old man replied: In this whole world GOD identified me as a good care taker and protector of such a child so I was fulfilling GOD's wish.

    In the above story, you can see how a person shows his respect to GOD and how he accepts HIS actions. One thing we do for all living beings(not only humans): "Pray for everyone".
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      Mar 13 2013: Thank you Bharath for that story.
      Bushy
    • Mar 16 2013: ok your story is basically saying that this man knew and had information from god im his head which is IMPOSSIBLE if it were true then god would be provable instead this poor old man was a fanatic who though "god" wanted him to do something but it was simply his own perception of his life and he connected what he was good at with what god wanted him to do
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    Mar 13 2013: Perhaps if there are creator gods they are not gods of love.

    Most animals survive by eating and killing other living things.

    Suffering and death is just part of the natural order.

    This is probably more consistent with a naturalistic explanation than a loving creator.

    Given we have the minds we have there is value in trying to reduce suffering.
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    Mar 12 2013: Why are you asking people? Ask God. If you have faith, He will answer.

    And if you ask people, the question should be "why or, rather, how do we as humans collectively and individually allow this to happen?"

    In the end, it's one and the same question.
  • Mar 12 2013: Let us suppose that we can believe in a God that does nothing evil or even anything that appears to be evil. Then "acts" of God have no meaning when "God" allegedly plagues us with earthquakes, tornados, asteroids or other acts that "appear" evil. I encourage all those who are atheists who don't believe in God not to believe in God until or unless that God makes its presence known to you in some fashion. Since I had a close encounter my "god" did not perform a miracle---except after the encounter I acquired faith. Was the encounter real or a figment of my imagination? I choose to have faith.

    Based on the above observations I reject the teachings of the "Old Testament" that brings us a wrathful or vengeful God.
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      Mar 12 2013: Hi Carolyn

      Your comment;
      “I’m going to try to shut less people out who may be so lonely their solution to pain is to force us to notice them in something so big it resembles an act of God, an idea that seems dangerous all around.”

      You just hit the nail on the head. I also believe that most evil deeds is done out of desperation trying to get people’s attention. Sometimes these cries of desperation go unnoticed and the people in pain revert to drastic deeds having far reaching consequences. The saddest of it all is that relatives and close friends only seem to realize that all the warning signs were there if only they would have cared to listen.

      There are equally as much evil as there are good in all of us. Treat any person like crap for too long and sooner than later his evil side will take control and erupt when least expected.
      Irrespective of being a believer or not, all of us should endeavor to do what you just commented above.
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    Mar 11 2013: Hi Colleen
    I equally value comments from both believers and non-believers. Not being able to participate as the facilitator would be meaningless unless of course this was some sort of survey which it is not. You are of the humble opinion that I’m preaching and guiding the conversation as the facilitator enforcing my idea of God on the readers. With all due respect, I believe that you just stepped into your own trap contradicting your very own statements. The totality of the opinion you raised to John is certainly no different from how I probably tried to tell people what to think as you are now . As such I apologize if I have misled you or anyone else in any way.
    To believe oneself to be humble and yet in the same breath attack the viewpoints of another is like oil and water which don’t mix.
    Humble – not to be proud or arrogant.
    This by the way could serve as a perfect example of a distasteful preaching.
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      Mar 11 2013: Bushy,
      You have posted the same comment twice, so I will respond in kind:>)

      Hi Bushy,
      You presented a question, assuming, and presenting your belief that there is a god. Your topic, as presented....."Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?" does not leave room for anyone who does not believe in a god.

      With all due respect, you said in a previous comment that this is your mission. I do not feel trapped at all, nor have I contradicted any of my statements. I believe you may try to discredit anyone who does not go along with your "mission".

      You have not "misled" me in any way...in fact, you have been very clear about your "mission". I have also observed that when one does not agree with religious extremists, one is accused of "attacking". I said I respect YOUR beliefs as YOUR beliefs....did you miss that statement?
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    Mar 11 2013: Earlier on the following question was raised by Ted Lover which as much as I hate to, I have to admit that I cannot. I can only trust my instincts and observations without throwing caution to the wind.
    Question was. “Please explain to me how you know God is more than a figment of your imagination.”

    Thousands upon thousands of scientists still believe in the illusive Higgs Boson referred to as The God Particle. The existence of this particle yet remains to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt without which many a theory if not most would tumble like a deck of cards. I stand to be corrected but I don’t think any other project has ever consumed so many man hours of highly paid individuals not even to mention the financing thereof. Without keeping this theory alive many scientists would literally find themselves without work having spent a good amount of their lives working on this. But then there certainly are a lot of experimental observations that seems to justify the idea.

    It is equally true about religion having millions of followers despite not being able to show any physical proof of God but never the less also consisting of observations in favor thereof. At least in this case some of the money is spent on the betterment of humanity.

    If the existence of God as well as the God Particle indeed had to be disproved then we would be inundated with scientists and Ministers roaming the streets begging for something to eat.

    The moral of the story; whatever we choose to believe, if we don’t stand together and respect each others believes, allowing each individual the freedom of choice, then we will all end up begging. Different opinions are like the two sides of a coin. Now matter what you do, you can never satisfy both at on any one time other than to live and let live. Nothing would thrill me more if indeed the Higgs boson could be physically found as well as God.
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    Mar 11 2013: 1/2
    Thanks to everyone for their input so far.

    I would like to quote Random Chance.
    “”Is this God you are referring to.
    Willing but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
    If He is able but not willing, then He is malevolent.
    If He is both willing and able, where does this evil come from?
    If He is neither willing nor able, why call Him God?””

    These are very valid questions, questions which has certainly also crossed my mind and kept me awake for more nights than I could care to remember. For this very reason I will be the last person to judge your viewpoints as these are truths you can only discover for yourself. I can only share my thoughts with you but the rest is up to you making use of your own free will.

    God certainly gave us freewill and for this very reason alone he can not intervene in any way or form as it would defy the very purpose of our creation in the first place.
    ((Willing but not able?))

    However, this does not mean that we should no longer believe and pray for guidance and protection. He will certainly guide us, but one thing that should also be perfectly understood is that if he had to be in control of our every movement it would be no different from taking away our freewill once more defeating the purpose. ((If He is both willing and able,)) Parents are all to aware of this fact that despite your love you can only guide and advise your kids but you can never control their life’s for its not yours to live, so why should we expect God to be any different.

    If we had no free will then we should insist on being prosecuted in a quantum court. Then, instead of being found guilty regardless of the crime committed, we should rather be rewarded for having fulfilled the purpose imposed on us from the quantum world.
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    Mar 11 2013: 2/2
    Continued
    If God had to create humans without freewill he would have created nothing more than programmable androids. In this case this whole discussion would become meaningless as the outcome has already been contemplated in the mind of God like reading a book which he wrote himself.
    ((If He is neither willing nor able, why call Him God?)

    We choose our own paths like every one else does without the option of giving up freewill. As such through faith and prayer we can only rely on God to guide us in making the best decisions. Similarly we as parents can only be an example to our children. If God had to create a shield of protection around us it would then also deprive others from making use of freewill once more defeating the object.
    Before we judge God we should look at him from the perspective of a parent. Try and enforce on your children what you expect of God and see just how quick you drive them out of your life.
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    Mar 11 2013: Why is the title of this conversation structured this way?
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      Mar 11 2013: In my humble perception and observation John, because it is not meant to be a discussion. It is looking very much like preaching. First of all, to participate as the facilitator is clearly guiding, one has to assume that there IS a god, which leaves out quite a few people.
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        Mar 11 2013: Hi Colleen
        I equally value comments from both believers and non-believers. Not being able to participate as the facilitator would be meaningless unless of course this was some sort of survey which it is not. You are of the humble opinion that I’m preaching and guiding the conversation as the facilitator enforcing my idea of God on the readers. With all due respect, I believe that you just stepped into your own trap contradicting your very own statements. The totality of the opinion you raised to John is certainly no different from how I probably tried to tell people what to think as you are now . As such I apologize if I have misled you or anyone else in any way.
        To believe oneself to be humble and yet in the same breath attack the viewpoints of another is like oil and water which don’t mix.
        Humble – not to be proud or arrogant.
        This by the way could serve as a perfect example of a distasteful preaching.
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          Mar 11 2013: Hi Bushy,
          You presented a question, assuming, and presenting your belief that there is a god. Your topic, as presented....."Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?" does not leave room for anyone who does not believe in a god.

          With all due respect, you said in a previous comment that this is your mission. I do not feel trapped at all, nor have I contradicted any of my statements. I believe you may try to discredit anyone who does not go along with your "mission".

          You have not "misled" me in any way...in fact, you have been very clear about your "mission". I have also observed that when one does not agree with religious extremists, one is accused of "attacking". I said I respect YOUR beliefs as YOUR beliefs....did you miss that statement?
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    Mar 11 2013: We have chosen to have nothing to do with God. We have chosen to suit ourselves. We bring up our children with no fear or respect of God, so why are we surprised when some use their 'God Given' free will to kill people ? We reap what we sow.

    :-(
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      Mar 12 2013: this is assuming that God exist but let me ask you this,

      If God did exist, would things have been better? Would murder stop?

      If you say that everything is up to us and our free-will, in light of God existing and looking over us, then I would have to say that God wants nothing to do with humanity. This is what gives me reason to doubt
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        Mar 12 2013: Thank You Orlando for your comment. To be honest I posted this question to open up conversations about God because of the many (not “all” like I stated and would retract) but many posts I read on Facebook questioning “why would God would let this happen”? I started to question religion when I realized as I grew up that there were many more beliefs than what my parent’s church had taught me. As I began to mature, I realized that each person has their own belief system. Sure people can change their mind at any time. And that is the beauty of it all. I also want to comment on your last words “This is what gives me reason to doubt”. The key word here is REASON. I have spent my entire life seeking out the true meaning to our existence with 25 years of painstaking research. Quantum Physics, Atoms, the Universe, and our Brains you name it. I discovered a unique connection in all matter of the universe. Think “Push Us Forward” rather than, but similar to “Pay it Forward” What I found was that on the Micro level there was a miracle taking place on the atomic level. This now allowed me to finally understand the meaning of how God, or our higher self, or whatever you may believe to be all knowing. That there is indeed a singularity of all knowledge. But I am not to judge how others interpreted my findings. They are however scientifically sound and I will debate any and all.
        It is totally reasonable to doubt and you have to come to your own conclusions in life.
        My you enjoy a beautiful life.
        Bushy
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        Mar 13 2013: Hi Orlando,
        If we obeyed God's command "Do not murder", then the murder would stop.

        We are God's children. He loves us whether we obey or not. Much like a human dad would. He would prefer we obeyed, because it would be better for us if we did, but he still cares for us when we don't.

        :-)
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          Mar 13 2013: Hi Peter,
          You say... "he loves us whether we obey or not". BUT...if we don't, he sends us to suffer and burn for an eternity in hell. I had a dad like that....it is abusive, and certainly NOT in any way, shape or form loving.
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          Mar 13 2013: HI Peter,

          You stated: "If we obeyed God's command "Do not murder", then the murder would stop"

          I personally think we would have came to the conclusion about murder without God. Sure there are people who still and murder but I doubt this is because they are out of touch with God.

          As for people like myself, Colleen and many of other people who do not murder, you would have to explain why we do not do such a thing. I for one do not murder people for the simple fact that it is simply just the wrong thing to do and many people will be hurt by my actions..you cannot credit my good grace to the Almighty..

          If it is God that leads you not to murder then that is a good thing because people are not suffering on your behalf. If this is the case I would say that you should give yourself more credit because you do not appear to be a horrible person at all.

          I am with Colleen in that we should not suffer eternal hell fire if we do not obey God..at least our human parents will eventually allow us to leave timeout. God, he just seems to have issues that he needs to work out if he cannot forgive me for not believing in him.
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        Mar 13 2013: Good point Orlando,
        As thinking, feeling, intelligent evolving humans, we may come to realizations regarding murder more effectively WITHOUT belief in a god. We know that many people in our world have been killed IN THE NAME OF A GOD.

        If it is, in fact, the belief in a god that motivates people to not murder, abuse, or violate the rights of others, then that belief in a god is beneficial. However, that HAS NOT been the case throughout history.

        This topic..."Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?", first assumes that there IS a god....some gods.....whatever......

        Then it assumes (based on a statement in the introduction) that...
        "God gave us freewill to be who we are."

        And this god, who is supposedly unconditionally loving, is allowing tragedy"?

        OH, and if we do not believe in this god, this unconditionally loving god, will punish us.

        Orlando, I totally agree with you...this god, or the illusion of a god, seems to have some issues that "he" needs to work out!
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          Mar 14 2013: Hi Colleen /. Orlando.

          I do understand where your coming from with the " send us to Hell "attitude. As a human being, that is my attitude as well. However, as a Christian, I have to look deeper.
          First off; I believe our conscience is God-given, So that even without faith, mankind does have a moral compass; should he/she chose to follow it. I came to faith at 35; I honestly don't think I am any better a person now than I was before. You do of course mellow a bit with age.
          Personally Hell doesn't concern me, as it doesn't apply to me; if I thought it did, I would take steps sharpish. However. We are told that God can have no contact with sin. We are told that any sin would ruin Heaven.
          I look on it like we are born as Crack Cocaine addicts, because our parents were addicts . God informs us of this fact, & the inevitable outcome; painful death. He can cure the addiction, but we have to agree. Most don't & the consequences follow. It's not that God sends us to Hell, we are on our way there anyway. He died that everyone could be cured, but most reject the advice. I think that very many people know well that God exists, but they think He is wrong. I figure it's His universe, & He can do as He pleases. Me; I grab the 'cure' with both hands; get on with my life; & look forward to the next one.
          You want to argue with God; best of luck.

          :-)
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        Mar 14 2013: Hi Peter,
        Personally, hell doesn't concern me either....on that we seem to agree:>)

        I am aware Peter, of what you have been told....you have informed us about that many times. I was told some of those things as a child as well, and even as a child, some things I was told did not make sense.

        You say we were born as addicts because our parents were addicts. That makes a little sense. I was born into a catholic family, and I began to see the "addiction" to a religion that didn't make sense even as a child.

        First you say "hell doesn't concern" you, then you say..."It's not that God sends us to Hell, we are on our way there anyway."

        Peter, I've asked you this before, and I'll probably keep asking.....do you ever really look at what you write and question why you write it?
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          Mar 15 2013: Hi Colleen.

          ""do you ever really look at what you write and question why you write it?""

          Could hardly miss it, I've written it often enough :) I write it to answer questions & inform folks of my viewpoint. If the Christian message is true, then it must be the most important message out there. If it's not true, just let me rant on & ignore me.

          I sympathise with you over your experience with your dad & the RC church. They seem to be a persistent theme in your writings. Could it be that this is clouding your judgement? Personally, I have no time for the teachings of the RC church, & I heartily agree that there are many men who are totally unfit to be fathers, or even husbands for that matter. Much of my life is spent trying to repair such damage. I'd better be careful, or we'll be doing too much agreeing : > .
          All I ask is a fair hearing; I am a reasonable husband & dad, with no affiliation to the RC church; so maybe not such a bad guy after all.

          :-)
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        Mar 15 2013: I know Peter....you have indeed written it often enough:>) I realize that you believe your message to be the "most important message out there", and I respect YOUR beliefs as YOUR beliefs. It is not the belief that all of us choose.

        I do not share the stories of my life adventures to get sympathy Peter. My writing about my dad and the RC church are not any more "persistent" than your writings which try to convert us:>)

        Thanks for your concern about my judgement being "clouded". In fact, my life experiences have provided good information, which I use to make choices.

        You seem like a good guy Peter....I've never questioned that at all. And yes...we do indeed agree on some things. When I do not agree, it is not necessary to suggest that my judgment is "clouded".
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          Mar 15 2013: I guess each of us is the product of our experience so far. My experience has led me to accept Christianity, yours has had somewhat the opposite effect. This is all understandable, & to each of us our views are reasonable to us as individuals.
          On the subject of God allowing tragedy, I assume you would answer, ' There is no God',& I more long-windedly? Or do you acknowledge a god, but assume he is not a nice character?

          :-)
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      Mar 25 2013: I agree Peter, that each of us is the product of the information learned from experience, as well as information we choose to assimilate and embrace.

      I have told you this in several conversations Peter, so either you are not listening, not hearing, not believing, not caring......etc. etc. etc. You are the only one who knows for sure. I suspect you are so intent on converting all of us (which you have said several times) that you don't really want to hear anyone elses story.

      I respect YOUR belief in a god, AS LONG AS THE BELIEF AND PRACTICE DOES NOT ADVERSLY IMPACT OTHER PEOPLE.

      With the information I have at this time, after 60+ years of exploration, 12 years of catholic schooling and bible study, many years of researching, studying and practicing different religious and philosophical beliefs, an NDE/OBE, etc. etc. etc....at this time, I do not believe in a god.
  • Mar 11 2013: Is this God you are referring to
    Willing but not able? Then He is not Omnipotent.
    If He is able but not willing, then He is malevolent.
    If He is both willing and able, where does this evil come from?
    If He is neither willing nor able, why call Him God?

    Do you believe there is one who has all power, and that one is God?
    Then your God has evil power and sees fit and has always seen fit
    to profusely, profoundly and liberally use evil power throughout the history of we humans, supposedly His Children.

    I personally do not identify with my abuser. Perhaps you do.
    If you do, then you support apartheid, slavery, murder, rape, and the invasion of other countries and
    destroying their "burgeoning free-will democracies".

    This has to be allowed by almost any God that might exist with the attributes that most people attribute to God/s.
    These tragedies have happened for all time and have not yet brought humans to a new understanding of God in a meaningful way, as apparently, though humans really want this, God will not allow it. So goes free will.

    Just ask Judas. He had absolutely no free will in the matter.
    He was told what to do and if he didn't do it, the story ends right then and there.
    Free will? With more bacteria living on your body then there are cells in it?

    When I say to others, "God is cruel, sadistic and evil," they readily agree.
    They believe in God, a loving God, oh, slightly demanding and so on, but when I say those words, their entire demeanor changes and they quickly admit God is those bad things. So, they choose the abuser and identify with the abuser.
    And that, is why, not if, a God would allow such things to happen. Apparently, no problem for God.
    Just all part of His fun.
    And that, is why I would never want to have such an entity in my life nor do I really understand why anyone else would except for the victim/abuser Stockholm connection.

    Religion: the source of evil in the world. 6th Commandant. Don't kill. But religious people do and condone it.
    • Mar 12 2013: God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. The eternal battle between good and evil is evident in the duality of nature---sometimes it is good, sometimes evil. What could be a greater duality than the fact that the most beautiful act, making love, is also the most brutal act, rape? God "controls" neither. God gave us free will with the hope (again God is not omniscient) that we would choose to do good i.e. side with God and not the alternative.

      We can direct as opposed to control nature. Some day we may direct the weather, prevent earthquakes, deflect/destroy asteroids, cure all genetic diseases, etc. Is this "conquering evil"?

      Because God is not omniscient it can't be omnipotent.
      • Mar 14 2013: Hi Richard.
        Based on what you have written, I confess that I see God as evil, sadistic, uncaring, cruel
        and so on. I don't really find any good attributes or qualities in this idea of God that would compel me to even want or desire such an entity in my life, for any reason whatsoever.
        Humans have virtually no free at all. What free will they might have is tiny, minute, almost inconsequential and your statements are based on everyone accepting there is a God to begin with.
        Like I said, Judas had no free will in the matter of betraying his closest friend. None at all.

        He had to betray Jesus (in the story), or said story would have ended as soon as he stood up for Jesus. Pontius Pilate would not have had nor allowed the crucifixion of Christ and the rest of the story wouldn't have happened.

        Since there seems to be no problem with people choosing evil over good, and those I might add fall into categories like the Moral Majority in America, the leaders and Presidents like both of the "Shock and Awe" burning Bushes, Secretaries of Defense, CIA leaders, religious leaders and institutions. These are people who lie and invade and kill using God as their crutch.
        Now this has been going on for some time and apparently this cruel, sadistic God still ain't satisfied or satiated with the Good People of God performing their blood-letting in the name of God.
        And if you care to admit, many believe and agree with these ideas and justifications for torture, murder, enslavement, poverty, invasion, daily horror and on and on for decades with immunity and impunity.
        Please don't say they will be judged or will pay for this in the next life, without some proof.
        That is just wishful, whistling-while-walking-past-the-graveyard thinking.
        Many have done these things and never paid for any of it. Only the victims paid, and still pay.
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    Mar 11 2013: Edward Thank You for your comment. Since each individual has their own thoughts on what God means to them I did not specify. Hopefully, this conversation will allow many people with different views come one more step in understanding our differences bringing us to a higher respect for each other.
  • Comment deleted

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      Mar 11 2013: Re: "This hating mentality does not bring you anything."

      Perhaps you can point out the hate to me. As you yourself point out, the statement Mr Van Eck's has posted has its weaknesses. Your comments bear the same weaknesses, in that it is unclear whether you are providing an opinion, which may or may not be own yours, a philosophical view of the question, or a religious perceptive. Pointing this out is not is exacting not hate.

      My sense is that Mr. Van Eck has an agenda in posting the question that is not apparent. He writes, "I will delay some of my responses until I have received sufficient challenges." So you see, this is not a simply question in search of an answer, rather I suspect it will turn into a lesson on "Scientific Evolutionary Theory that supports the belief of Divine Creation." We are being asked to stick around and follow the conservation.
      My comment calls into question whether Mr Van Eck's is choosing to play on peoples emotion, knowingly or unknowingly, about the tragedy surrounding the shootings in Newtown as a way of attracting an audience.
      Perhaps you will reply to my original query, " Is one (tragedy) any more meaningful than the next, or any more tragic than any other?"
  • Mar 11 2013: I usually run away from discussions like this but for some reason am impaled to put in my two cents.
    For every tragedy that happens, no matter how bad, good does arise from it. It may not be seen right away but it happens.
    A higher power may have given us free will but that same power did not release full control to us humans.
    Other life forms follow an ingrained path throughout their whole lives, but once in awhile one of those life forms gets side tracked. That was meant to happen.
    Humans are on a steep learning curve and we are not doing so good. We turned away from the lessons that we see other creatures use every day.
    Did a high power let any tragedy happen? No! We did. And that higher power (self-within us?) now reteaches us a lesson that we should have learned years ago.
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    Gail .

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    Mar 11 2013: Please explain how you know that God is more than a figment of your imagination.
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      Mar 12 2013: Thank You Ted lover for your comment. To be honest I posted this question to open up conversations about God because of the many (not “all” like I stated and would retract) but many posts I read on Facebook questioning “why would God would let this happen”? I started to question religion when I realized as I grew up that there were many more beliefs than what my parent’s church had taught me. As I began to mature, I realized that each person has their own belief system. Sure people can change their mind at any time. And that is the beauty of it all. The key word here is REASON. I have spent my entire life seeking out the true meaning to our existence with 25 years of painstaking research. Quantum Physics, Atoms, the Universe, and our Brains you name it. I discovered a unique connection in all matter of the universe. Think “Push Us Forward” rather than, but similar to “Pay it Forward” What I found was that on the Micro level there was a miracle taking place on the atomic level. This now allowed me to finally understand the meaning of how God, or our higher self, or whatever you may believe to be all knowing. That there is indeed a singularity of all knowledge. But I am not to judge how others interpreted my findings. They are however scientifically sound and I will debate any and all.
      My you enjoy a beautiful life.
      Bushy
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    Mar 11 2013: Ahh, I see:

    The “Bushy Van Eck Theory for Humanity”.
    "Bushy Van Eck, self educated Theorist and Truth-Seeker, Springs South Africa, has been very curious since he was a young boy about how life was created and the meaning of life. He became infatuated with the answers behind all scientific theories, especially Albert Einstein's theory of relativity. After 25 years he finally was able to put it all together, the missing link that has eluded scientists to this day. From the creation of our world to why we are here, Bushy pulls the curtains back and reveals the meaning of life in such a way that will change the way we think about our whole existence. Most people today know they are part of something greater but just can’t put their finger on it, just can’t find the answer. Although faith religion has taken humanity very far, it is now time for humanity to become aware of a Scientific Evolutionary Theory that supports the belief of Divine Creation."

    "Bushy Van Eck resides in Springs South Africa. His native language is Afrikaans but you will see his English is quite exquisite. In addition he is a member of Mensa (the largest and oldest high IQ society in the world). After 25 years of personal research, Bushy brings forth a fascinating interpretation of Our Universe. When there is no clear understanding of a theory, when it just cannot be explained and does not make sense, then what worth is it to humanity? And if such a theory is discovered that brings a better understanding for our existence, it is truly a gift to be shared. On this premise, Bushy pulls the curtains back on scientific theories and brings them all together to reveal a purposeful meaning of our life. You will learn that we do indeed have a greater purpose towards a greater cause. Bushy will open profound doors that will take you to such a deep understanding of your life you will never be the same person once exposed."
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    Mar 11 2013: God doesn't allow tragedies to happen, he gave everyone a choice and it is nature that lets the choice go bad, and also have you ever thought that if the world wasn't sinful then the world wouldn't need a savior? Another question I ask to myself is that do we really know an awnser to questions like these? Is it really worth trying to ask this, the possibilities are endless and us humans doesn't have the mental ability to awnser or ask questions like these.
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      Mar 11 2013: Andrew Thank you so much for your comment. Sometimes the question isn't as important as what discussion it brings. Your comment for example has meaning to all of us. But I do disagree on your point that is it worth it? We can only learn if we ask questions and respect others opinions. You are young and I completely understand your feeling that can we possibly have the mental ability to answer a question like this? I have worked 25 years asking the same questions from a young man to who I am today. My answer is yes we have now grown as a humanity and it is time for us to understand this question an what it means. I do agree with you Andrew, God does not allow but rather is a part of everything. I don't want to give to much away for it is quite early in this discussion. But I promise I am on your side. Keep an eye on this discussion.
      Bushy
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      Mar 11 2013: Re: "it is nature that lets the choice go bad"

      Who is nature, and does it fall outside to the control of a given god? What other animals in nature experiences the world as a "sinful" place?
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        Mar 14 2013: Theodore,
        I did post this question to evoke the many feelings we have about God as well as to open up a discussion to share thoughts. Playing on people’s emotion was not my intent whatsoever. But I respect your opinion and maybe I was wrong in posting a question like this. My intention has only one agenda, to share, learn and contribute politely. As far as theories go, it is up the listener to decide. If it helps someone have a better understanding and they find it useful so be it. If not no harm done turn the channel. I have learned not to run away from the pain we feel from tragedy and loss but to go to it on the deepest level possible. Allowing it to become part of you and become a more humble person. I appreciate your contribution and hope we can continue on with other discussions as well. You are defiantly more experienced at this than I.
        Bushy
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      Mar 14 2013: Did we have a choice to be born into this world.

      Did a new born baby have a choice to have some awful deformity.

      Do we choose to grow old and die.

      Did we choose to get stricken by disease or parasites.

      Do we choose to see our loved ones die.

      Did the antelope choose to be eaten by a lion.

      Did the lion choose to be a lion.

      Our choices are not the cause of all the suffering in the world.

      If you believe in a all knowing creator it knew it was setting up a universe with suffering.

      the freedom of choice argument does not absolve the creator of all suffering in the world. It didn't have to set it up this way where we need to eat and kill other living things. We could have been spirits and given a choice without pain and suffering

      And who do you believe nature, with floods and earthquakes and UV causing cancer.