- Bushy Van Eck
- Springs
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Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?
If God is truly a God of Love then why would God not stop a tragedy? I have often asked myself this question. Thousands of posts on Facebook after the recent shootings in Connecticut prove we all have the same question. Our hearts were torn apart in such a way that our country is now fighting over gun control to prevent this from ever happening again. The pain is just too unbearable to think of this ever happening to one of our own children. The question still remains, no matter what we do, “Why would God allow this to happen”? I believe many people questioned their faith at times of tragedy.
What IF?
What if this tragedy, these beautiful people that lost their lives, bring us to a new understanding of God in a much more meaningful way. What if we realized, now more than ever, we are a part of each and every person that lost their life on that day? What if we realize they will never be lost because collectively, we all died that day? The world did come to an end on Dec 14th 2012 as we once knew it. There is no longer a need for a question like “Why Would God Allow a Tragedy” but a realization that God is there in every past, present and future moment. Because God gave us freewill to be who we are.
God Bless to those whose life was tragically taken, we love you forever…………………..
Charles Curt
Bushy Van Eck
One person I studied was Krishnamurti http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php and his thoughts on observation. By quieting our own thoughts to become an observer in a situation we can have better understanding. You would gain sensitivity for another and have insight so that your conversations were not intrusive. But where I agree with you is that does not seem to be taking place in the real world. The key word is seem.
Through observation and years of painstaking research I believe we are on a spiraling path upwards. The first signs of physical life consisting of highly advanced atomic structures unified into molecules collectively functioning as cells. From the beginning there was unification. But there is also a constant recycling going on at the same time. Not one cell a person is born with is still there when they reach age seven. I believe collectively as atoms unified, human mankind is on the same path. Each individual seeing themselves from their own pivotal viewpoint.
Charles Curt
Bushy Van Eck
Each and every organism at a lower level plays an integral role in the formation of a higher level of creation. If it had to insist on its own little egocentric individualistic being, then its very own creation would serve no purpose. This pyramid of unification certainly does not end with humans being far from the top. Across all levels of unified awareness time is the unified summation hence the accumulation of the sum of all that is part and parcel from within. As such individualism can only exist with the acknowledgement that its very existence is based on the unification of lower levels of individualism but yet in itself only forms an integral part of something much greater existing on a higher level. Once you get to realize this it would make you acutely aware that by treating individuals on the same level of existence as yourself with disrespect and in an ill manner you as an entity are nothing more than a cancerous cell. As such you are a danger to that which exists on a higher level standing against the very purpose of evolution and becomes a threat for its survival. Only by eradicating these cancerous entities can evolution be safeguarded towards a higher level of existence.
Charles Curt
Bushy Van Eck
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Charles Curt
and so if you had an opening and greater way to understand god you care to share this ultimate knowledge?
Bushy Van Eck
It is a possibility offered in an opinion from my 25 years of research to come to a better understanding of our universe and our perceptions thereof.
Here you might find an understanding. But it won't come easily and you will have to study, absorb and reflect. Most people would walk away or reject a thought that they do not comprehend in 5 minutes.
I have tried to put my theory in as understandable as possible format.
http://www.transparencing.com/
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Freewill does not explain all the non human causes of suffering.
Like earthquakes and disease.
Also a god could easily have set up a situation where spirits have choices without harming other spirits. Seems if we have a god it set up a situation where most animals evolved to survive by eating and killing other living things and humans can harm each other, and the weather, disease, floods, famines etc can cause suffering.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Assumes a god exists.
Assumes an interventionist god.
No proof of either I suggest.
Bushy Van Eck
Thanks for the comment.
Bushy
Obey No1kinobe 50+
An ultimate intelligence just seems to be a human construct, an idea, a hypothetical concept.
Similarly some people call the universe god. I just call it the universe.
If there were evidence for gods I would accept that. But coming up with hypothetical constructs is not evidence.
That does not mean I assert that gods don't exist. Just no compelling evidence in my view.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Earthquakes are not caused by humans.
The fact we will age and die and most diseases are not caused by humans.
The fact that most animals have evolved to survive by eating or killing other living things is not caused by humans.
A creator goddess would be responsible for both the natural non human causes of suffering and the nature of humans.
While the existence of this suffering is more consistent with a naturalistic evolutionary perspective is does not disprove the existence of some creative agency. However, it does not support claims that this agency is all loving.
The free will argument is insufficient to explain the suffering and does not excuse the creator.
The god moves in mysterious ways argument is a cop out.
I guess many old religious constructs try to explain human suffering in different ways. The Hebrew bible talks about adam and eve disobeying god and being cast out of Eden is a divine hissy fit. My understanding is some Christian views see this original sin tainting us all. This is completely immoral. And then we have the ultimate suffering via this god casting those who don’t follow the rules into the fiery hell it created to punish us for all eternal. This god even knows in advance which of us are going to hell. What a wicked set up. This is the epitome of evil, worse than any human genocide, torture and cruelty. And yet some cling to the belief this god is all loving. Go figure?
Bharath Nagamuthu
In the above story, you can see how a person shows his respect to GOD and how he accepts HIS actions. One thing we do for all living beings(not only humans): "Pray for everyone".
Bushy Van Eck
Bushy
Charles Curt
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Most animals survive by eating and killing other living things.
Suffering and death is just part of the natural order.
This is probably more consistent with a naturalistic explanation than a loving creator.
Given we have the minds we have there is value in trying to reduce suffering.
Chris Kelly 20+
God does not allow tragedies in the life of men, WE do. We have all the instruction on how to live in accordance with Gods law, yet through our 'free will', we choose to use it, rather than allowing Gods will to work through us. That is the ultimate wrong choice.
The Pater Noster
"Our father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven."
Important to note, Biblically, 'earth' is often a metaphor for the human body while 'heaven' is often a metaphor for the superior mind.
When we allow ourselves to become a vehicle through which Gods will is done through us, we become "men (and women) of God".
Yes, we have "free will", and it leads us "into temptation" ... the temptation to use it, which is why we suffer. Our willfulness leads us into temptation.
"Give us this day our daily bread" ... bread, being a metaphor for wisdom, which is why Jesus offered bread to his disciples and said "take this and eat it, for this is my body...", because the 'body' (the manifestation) of Christ (consciousness) is wisdom.
The level of consciousness Jesus reached is known as "Christ Consciousness"; it's how he was able to resurrect his physical body through spiritual perfection.
The second emanation of the Kabbalistic Godhead is the son ... Chokmah ... the Hebrew word for Wisdom. So in this most powerful prayer, we're asking for wisdom. The wisdom to overcome our will.
Give us this daily bread, this daily wisdom ...
"and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us ..."
Now ask yourself ... DO you FORGIVE those who trespass against you/us? Has Hitler been forgiven? Has Adam Lanza been forgiven? Have we forgiven those who trespass against us, or do we make icons of them and their ... trespasses?
con't.
Casey Christofaris 10+
Colleen Steen 500+
Casey Christofaris 10+
I am 100% pro choice on everything and I agree as long as it does not harm other without others consent but no I do not see the contradiction
Colleen Steen 500+
To me, Chris Kelly's statement feels like a contradiction....
"God does not allow tragedies in the life of men, WE do. We have all the instruction on how to live in accordance with Gods law, yet through our 'free will', we choose to use it, rather than allowing Gods will to work through us. That is the ultimate wrong choice."
A god gives us free will and the instruction on how to live in accordance with "gods law".
We use our free will, which god has given us, and it is the "wrong choice"???
Charles Curt
Colleen-i like your tolerant behavior attitude but if you don't tell someone something is wrong are you not damaging society as a whole by letting that person go around with a false perception of reality which in turn may spread to others and cause bias and intolerance because they wont change their minds? if someone told you the earth is in the center of the universe would you just say ok thats your belief and let them continuing with that faulty knowledge and possibly spreading the idea making the problem worse?
Colleen Steen 500+
Thank you for liking my tolerant attitude:>) I perceive tolerance to be preferable to the alternative, and if I did not practice tolerance, I would be the same as those who say they are good christians and are intolerant of others.
Chris Kelly 20+
It's easy to have sympathy for the victims of crime, but when we're instructed to forgive those who have trespassed against us, when we're instructed to love our enemies, how successful are we?
It's been almost seventy years since Hitler died ... who has forgiven him?
"and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen."
We can only be 'delivered from evil' by giving up our will and allowing Gods will to flow through us.
God shall not enter an unclean house ... we are the house ... and if we're holding grudges against others, we are unclean.
God does not allow tragedy ... WE allow it. God does not 'prevent' tragedy, because it is a lesson for us. The lesson will keep repeating until we learn it.
Casey Christofaris 10+
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
This seems to be a wrong question to ask. Instead, I suggest to focus on the question how we, as humans, react to such events: with anger, bitterness, and contempt towards ourselves, each other, and God; or with grief, empathy, and love.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Mind you this is the same god who the bible claims committed global genocide via the flood.
Destroyed cities, sent plagues, took animal and human sacrifices etc etc etc etc.
I personally wouldn't go looking to the god of the bible if looking for a god of love unless you want to cherry pick.
I'm not saying this to be provocative, Just there seems to be a big disconnect between the god described in many parts of the bible and this concept of a loving god. Although who knows what god Bushy is referring too. Seems everyone has a different idea of what god is consistent with there being no reliable information about its existence or nature.
I agree with your intent in regards to humans considering our actions and responses.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
The disconnect between god described in different parts of the Bible is disconnect within ourselves. Mind you that YHWH means "I am". So, when you say "the book of Job kind of shows Yahweh is a .... and that humans are his playthings, and it likes burnt offerings", you say that about yourself. Bible is merely a mirror of humanity. If you don't like what you read there, it's totally understandable :-).
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I agree religious writings are man made and reflect human thinking and behaviours.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Wherever we look, we may see gloom and doom, atrocities, absurdities, and contradictions leading to worry and undue anxiety. But we can also see similarities, deep analogies, consistency, and wisdom leading to peace within ourselves and between ourselves.
"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Perhaps the challenge is to work around this tendency to better understanding and solutions
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
And if you ask people, the question should be "why or, rather, how do we as humans collectively and individually allow this to happen?"
In the end, it's one and the same question.
richard moody jr 10+
Based on the above observations I reject the teachings of the "Old Testament" that brings us a wrathful or vengeful God.
carolyn mcauley 10+
Bushy Van Eck
Your comment;
“I’m going to try to shut less people out who may be so lonely their solution to pain is to force us to notice them in something so big it resembles an act of God, an idea that seems dangerous all around.”
You just hit the nail on the head. I also believe that most evil deeds is done out of desperation trying to get people’s attention. Sometimes these cries of desperation go unnoticed and the people in pain revert to drastic deeds having far reaching consequences. The saddest of it all is that relatives and close friends only seem to realize that all the warning signs were there if only they would have cared to listen.
There are equally as much evil as there are good in all of us. Treat any person like crap for too long and sooner than later his evil side will take control and erupt when least expected.
Irrespective of being a believer or not, all of us should endeavor to do what you just commented above.
Bushy Van Eck
I equally value comments from both believers and non-believers. Not being able to participate as the facilitator would be meaningless unless of course this was some sort of survey which it is not. You are of the humble opinion that I’m preaching and guiding the conversation as the facilitator enforcing my idea of God on the readers. With all due respect, I believe that you just stepped into your own trap contradicting your very own statements. The totality of the opinion you raised to John is certainly no different from how I probably tried to tell people what to think as you are now . As such I apologize if I have misled you or anyone else in any way.
To believe oneself to be humble and yet in the same breath attack the viewpoints of another is like oil and water which don’t mix.
Humble – not to be proud or arrogant.
This by the way could serve as a perfect example of a distasteful preaching.
Colleen Steen 500+
You have posted the same comment twice, so I will respond in kind:>)
Hi Bushy,
You presented a question, assuming, and presenting your belief that there is a god. Your topic, as presented....."Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?" does not leave room for anyone who does not believe in a god.
With all due respect, you said in a previous comment that this is your mission. I do not feel trapped at all, nor have I contradicted any of my statements. I believe you may try to discredit anyone who does not go along with your "mission".
You have not "misled" me in any way...in fact, you have been very clear about your "mission". I have also observed that when one does not agree with religious extremists, one is accused of "attacking". I said I respect YOUR beliefs as YOUR beliefs....did you miss that statement?
Bushy Van Eck
Question was. “Please explain to me how you know God is more than a figment of your imagination.”
Thousands upon thousands of scientists still believe in the illusive Higgs Boson referred to as The God Particle. The existence of this particle yet remains to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt without which many a theory if not most would tumble like a deck of cards. I stand to be corrected but I don’t think any other project has ever consumed so many man hours of highly paid individuals not even to mention the financing thereof. Without keeping this theory alive many scientists would literally find themselves without work having spent a good amount of their lives working on this. But then there certainly are a lot of experimental observations that seems to justify the idea.
It is equally true about religion having millions of followers despite not being able to show any physical proof of God but never the less also consisting of observations in favor thereof. At least in this case some of the money is spent on the betterment of humanity.
If the existence of God as well as the God Particle indeed had to be disproved then we would be inundated with scientists and Ministers roaming the streets begging for something to eat.
The moral of the story; whatever we choose to believe, if we don’t stand together and respect each others believes, allowing each individual the freedom of choice, then we will all end up begging. Different opinions are like the two sides of a coin. Now matter what you do, you can never satisfy both at on any one time other than to live and let live. Nothing would thrill me more if indeed the Higgs boson could be physically found as well as God.
Bushy Van Eck
Thanks to everyone for their input so far.
I would like to quote Random Chance.
“”Is this God you are referring to.
Willing but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able but not willing, then He is malevolent.
If He is both willing and able, where does this evil come from?
If He is neither willing nor able, why call Him God?””
These are very valid questions, questions which has certainly also crossed my mind and kept me awake for more nights than I could care to remember. For this very reason I will be the last person to judge your viewpoints as these are truths you can only discover for yourself. I can only share my thoughts with you but the rest is up to you making use of your own free will.
God certainly gave us freewill and for this very reason alone he can not intervene in any way or form as it would defy the very purpose of our creation in the first place.
((Willing but not able?))
However, this does not mean that we should no longer believe and pray for guidance and protection. He will certainly guide us, but one thing that should also be perfectly understood is that if he had to be in control of our every movement it would be no different from taking away our freewill once more defeating the purpose. ((If He is both willing and able,)) Parents are all to aware of this fact that despite your love you can only guide and advise your kids but you can never control their life’s for its not yours to live, so why should we expect God to be any different.
If we had no free will then we should insist on being prosecuted in a quantum court. Then, instead of being found guilty regardless of the crime committed, we should rather be rewarded for having fulfilled the purpose imposed on us from the quantum world.
Bushy Van Eck
Continued
If God had to create humans without freewill he would have created nothing more than programmable androids. In this case this whole discussion would become meaningless as the outcome has already been contemplated in the mind of God like reading a book which he wrote himself.
((If He is neither willing nor able, why call Him God?)
We choose our own paths like every one else does without the option of giving up freewill. As such through faith and prayer we can only rely on God to guide us in making the best decisions. Similarly we as parents can only be an example to our children. If God had to create a shield of protection around us it would then also deprive others from making use of freewill once more defeating the object.
Before we judge God we should look at him from the perspective of a parent. Try and enforce on your children what you expect of God and see just how quick you drive them out of your life.
John Gianino
Colleen Steen 500+
Bushy Van Eck
I equally value comments from both believers and non-believers. Not being able to participate as the facilitator would be meaningless unless of course this was some sort of survey which it is not. You are of the humble opinion that I’m preaching and guiding the conversation as the facilitator enforcing my idea of God on the readers. With all due respect, I believe that you just stepped into your own trap contradicting your very own statements. The totality of the opinion you raised to John is certainly no different from how I probably tried to tell people what to think as you are now . As such I apologize if I have misled you or anyone else in any way.
To believe oneself to be humble and yet in the same breath attack the viewpoints of another is like oil and water which don’t mix.
Humble – not to be proud or arrogant.
This by the way could serve as a perfect example of a distasteful preaching.
Colleen Steen 500+
You presented a question, assuming, and presenting your belief that there is a god. Your topic, as presented....."Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?" does not leave room for anyone who does not believe in a god.
With all due respect, you said in a previous comment that this is your mission. I do not feel trapped at all, nor have I contradicted any of my statements. I believe you may try to discredit anyone who does not go along with your "mission".
You have not "misled" me in any way...in fact, you have been very clear about your "mission". I have also observed that when one does not agree with religious extremists, one is accused of "attacking". I said I respect YOUR beliefs as YOUR beliefs....did you miss that statement?
Peter Law 30+
:-(
Orlando Hawkins 20+
If God did exist, would things have been better? Would murder stop?
If you say that everything is up to us and our free-will, in light of God existing and looking over us, then I would have to say that God wants nothing to do with humanity. This is what gives me reason to doubt
Bushy Van Eck
It is totally reasonable to doubt and you have to come to your own conclusions in life.
My you enjoy a beautiful life.
Bushy
Peter Law 30+
If we obeyed God's command "Do not murder", then the murder would stop.
We are God's children. He loves us whether we obey or not. Much like a human dad would. He would prefer we obeyed, because it would be better for us if we did, but he still cares for us when we don't.
:-)
Colleen Steen 500+
You say... "he loves us whether we obey or not". BUT...if we don't, he sends us to suffer and burn for an eternity in hell. I had a dad like that....it is abusive, and certainly NOT in any way, shape or form loving.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
You stated: "If we obeyed God's command "Do not murder", then the murder would stop"
I personally think we would have came to the conclusion about murder without God. Sure there are people who still and murder but I doubt this is because they are out of touch with God.
As for people like myself, Colleen and many of other people who do not murder, you would have to explain why we do not do such a thing. I for one do not murder people for the simple fact that it is simply just the wrong thing to do and many people will be hurt by my actions..you cannot credit my good grace to the Almighty..
If it is God that leads you not to murder then that is a good thing because people are not suffering on your behalf. If this is the case I would say that you should give yourself more credit because you do not appear to be a horrible person at all.
I am with Colleen in that we should not suffer eternal hell fire if we do not obey God..at least our human parents will eventually allow us to leave timeout. God, he just seems to have issues that he needs to work out if he cannot forgive me for not believing in him.
Colleen Steen 500+
As thinking, feeling, intelligent evolving humans, we may come to realizations regarding murder more effectively WITHOUT belief in a god. We know that many people in our world have been killed IN THE NAME OF A GOD.
If it is, in fact, the belief in a god that motivates people to not murder, abuse, or violate the rights of others, then that belief in a god is beneficial. However, that HAS NOT been the case throughout history.
This topic..."Why Would God Allow a Tragedy?", first assumes that there IS a god....some gods.....whatever......
Then it assumes (based on a statement in the introduction) that...
"God gave us freewill to be who we are."
And this god, who is supposedly unconditionally loving, is allowing tragedy"?
OH, and if we do not believe in this god, this unconditionally loving god, will punish us.
Orlando, I totally agree with you...this god, or the illusion of a god, seems to have some issues that "he" needs to work out!
Peter Law 30+
I do understand where your coming from with the " send us to Hell "attitude. As a human being, that is my attitude as well. However, as a Christian, I have to look deeper.
First off; I believe our conscience is God-given, So that even without faith, mankind does have a moral compass; should he/she chose to follow it. I came to faith at 35; I honestly don't think I am any better a person now than I was before. You do of course mellow a bit with age.
Personally Hell doesn't concern me, as it doesn't apply to me; if I thought it did, I would take steps sharpish. However. We are told that God can have no contact with sin. We are told that any sin would ruin Heaven.
I look on it like we are born as Crack Cocaine addicts, because our parents were addicts . God informs us of this fact, & the inevitable outcome; painful death. He can cure the addiction, but we have to agree. Most don't & the consequences follow. It's not that God sends us to Hell, we are on our way there anyway. He died that everyone could be cured, but most reject the advice. I think that very many people know well that God exists, but they think He is wrong. I figure it's His universe, & He can do as He pleases. Me; I grab the 'cure' with both hands; get on with my life; & look forward to the next one.
You want to argue with God; best of luck.
:-)
Colleen Steen 500+
Personally, hell doesn't concern me either....on that we seem to agree:>)
I am aware Peter, of what you have been told....you have informed us about that many times. I was told some of those things as a child as well, and even as a child, some things I was told did not make sense.
You say we were born as addicts because our parents were addicts. That makes a little sense. I was born into a catholic family, and I began to see the "addiction" to a religion that didn't make sense even as a child.
First you say "hell doesn't concern" you, then you say..."It's not that God sends us to Hell, we are on our way there anyway."
Peter, I've asked you this before, and I'll probably keep asking.....do you ever really look at what you write and question why you write it?
Peter Law 30+
""do you ever really look at what you write and question why you write it?""
Could hardly miss it, I've written it often enough :) I write it to answer questions & inform folks of my viewpoint. If the Christian message is true, then it must be the most important message out there. If it's not true, just let me rant on & ignore me.
I sympathise with you over your experience with your dad & the RC church. They seem to be a persistent theme in your writings. Could it be that this is clouding your judgement? Personally, I have no time for the teachings of the RC church, & I heartily agree that there are many men who are totally unfit to be fathers, or even husbands for that matter. Much of my life is spent trying to repair such damage. I'd better be careful, or we'll be doing too much agreeing : > .
All I ask is a fair hearing; I am a reasonable husband & dad, with no affiliation to the RC church; so maybe not such a bad guy after all.
:-)
Colleen Steen 500+
I do not share the stories of my life adventures to get sympathy Peter. My writing about my dad and the RC church are not any more "persistent" than your writings which try to convert us:>)
Thanks for your concern about my judgement being "clouded". In fact, my life experiences have provided good information, which I use to make choices.
You seem like a good guy Peter....I've never questioned that at all. And yes...we do indeed agree on some things. When I do not agree, it is not necessary to suggest that my judgment is "clouded".
Peter Law 30+
On the subject of God allowing tragedy, I assume you would answer, ' There is no God',& I more long-windedly? Or do you acknowledge a god, but assume he is not a nice character?
:-)
Colleen Steen 500+
I have told you this in several conversations Peter, so either you are not listening, not hearing, not believing, not caring......etc. etc. etc. You are the only one who knows for sure. I suspect you are so intent on converting all of us (which you have said several times) that you don't really want to hear anyone elses story.
I respect YOUR belief in a god, AS LONG AS THE BELIEF AND PRACTICE DOES NOT ADVERSLY IMPACT OTHER PEOPLE.
With the information I have at this time, after 60+ years of exploration, 12 years of catholic schooling and bible study, many years of researching, studying and practicing different religious and philosophical beliefs, an NDE/OBE, etc. etc. etc....at this time, I do not believe in a god.
Colleen Steen 500+
If you truly believe that "God gave us freewill to be who we are", as you write in your introduction, why do you need to question if she/he/it "allows" tragedy? There is tragedy caused by humans who make certain choices, as you point out with your reference to a tragedy. And there are certain processes in nature that cause tragedy for some people (earthquakes, floods, etc.) We DO NOT "all have the same question" . It is good that people question their faith....questioning is always good. What if....tragedy caused by humans...brings us to a new understanding of humans and freewill? I wholeheartedly agree that we are all energetically connected, and I do not believe that connection to be orchestrated by a god.
The world, as we knew it did not "come to an end on Dec.14th 2012"....unless.....that is the belief you as an individual choose to embrace. I agree..."There is no longer a need for a question like “Why Would God Allow a Tragedy” ". That question has been asked throughout history, and if you want to continue to ask it.....carry on!
Orlando Hawkins 20+
I think the worse response would be to say that such events were all part of Gods plan