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Mathew Naismith

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Are science & spirituality one and the same?

I believe they are it’s just they use different deductive reasoning processors to evaluate to become further aware, what do you think?

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  • Mar 16 2013: ok that's true we do get a herd feeling from singing together but that is nothing to do with a god no it's not ignorance it's being open minded because i look at all theories (including religion) and believe they are right until proven wrong and im sorry but if you are christian i can literally prove every bit of your religion wrong and i probably know more about it than you
    also you're wrong both of those were started from religious problems WWI arch duke ferdenand was assassinated leading to treaties of countries combing into a world waar so religion started WWI as for WW2 hitler believed his race was divine and that jews were the cause of all problems so that was also caused by religion and almost every war is either directly caused by religion or religious aspects effect judgement leading to war i'd love you to give me a real example of a war without religious baggage attached to it
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      Mar 16 2013: G'day Charles

      They weren't religious wars or religious based wars, show me a war that didn't incorperate some sort of science in it especially modern warfare. This is a rediculous argument, show me a war that didn't involve babies or weapons, come on!!

      You can not actually prove everything of any religion wrong that is again rediculous, you can theorise but you can't give me physical proof. Prove to me that God doesn't exist but don't theorise give me hard physical proof.

      With world II in particular the reason why Hitler & his Nazi party was against the jews wasn't because of religion but how the jews in his country & the world ran the world ecomony to thier own benifit while German people where starving to death.

      Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not a religious Christian.

      Can I ask you a question, can you tell me where the matter came from to create the universe & our complex mind? Don't blindly tell me is was just there or it appeared out of thin air. Surely you can't believe that just physcial matter created complex thinking as that sounds awfuly like blind faith?

      Love
      Mathew

      PS By the way I'm also into science & I follow no organised beloefe system as I find all organised beliefe systems dogmatic to some degree or another just like scientists can be.
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        Mar 16 2013: I like the point about wars, babies and weapons. I don't like the point about Jews. Nazis killed Jews not because of anything that Jews did, but because of the Nazi belief system which I categorize as "spirituality". And, yes, they exploited a long tradition of antisemitism that existed among Christians since early centuries. But let's not attribute human corruption to religion or God. I see no direct causality here. Killing each other has always been a popular pastime in all cultures.
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          Mar 16 2013: G’day Arkady

          I had a chat to a couple of people of German decent & they said that the Jews controlled the money system like with banks, gold & so forth & where blamed for the great depression but like with anything radical the Nazi’s where good at propaganda & they did persecute anyone not a socialist &/or inferior to them unless they could use them to their advantage.

          Love
          Mathew
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        Mar 16 2013: It is not uncommon to blame Jews for everything - from killing Christ to all sorts of economic and political problems. In Russia there was a popular belief that "Jews sold Russia". To whom? Now there is this strange belief that Muslims are barbaric. Sure, there are "facts", "evidence", etc. I don't even want to talk about it unless the person who makes these comments acknowledges his own hypocrisy and depravity.

        There is a sarcastic poem by Igor Guberman, a Jewish poet from Russia:

        Везде, где есть цивилизация
        И свет звезды планету греет,
        Есть обязательная нация
        Для роли тамошних евреев.

        Which roughly translates

        Wherever there is a civilization under the sun, there is a nation designated for the role of Jews.
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          Mar 16 2013: G'day Arkady

          I brought up a discussion on how eastern spiritual ideologies where more sound & less corrupted than western spiritual ideologies, didn't the westerners get into me but they will knock easterners for what ever but they have a hard time looking at themselves truthfuly.

          I'm not a very popular person because I will call a spade & spade & question science & spiritual dogmas, & ideologies with the same vigure & at the same time look at myself in how critical I am of others.

          In saying I'm not popular personally one on one isn't quite right becuase I get on quite well with a number of spiritual aware people unless they become too dogmatic & egotistical which is rare as I only like to be around genuine people.

          Love
          Mathew
        • Mar 16 2013: Arkady sorry i can't respond properly to your last question
          Yes you are right there is still irrationality in the world even without religion but the religion based wars would cease completely (also i mean 3rd world countries not the US) and we could finally wage war on actual problems not made up ones
          and with the god created from nothing YES you are absolutely correct it means nothing so why would you believe the same sort of argument but on the other side believing god did create it from nothing because the truth is God has never been proven the only proof we have is irration fanatics from thousands of years ago telling us they talked to god how do we know these people aren't just like the fanatics today hearing their own head and interpreting as messages from god i know many many Many! christians who think they have heard god or spoken to him it is just Insanity nothing more except we tolerate these insane irrational people because i may be wrong but i personally believe ALL irrationality has its origins in religion this is not counting irrationality from strong emotions though but society frowns on that irrationality but not religious ones?
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        Mar 16 2013: Mathew, on your issue of physical matter creating complex thinking, which many find incredible, and because our current reason based understanding of nature doesn't provide a sufficiently satisfying answer as to how this came to be, many are willing to accept or at least entertain answers which come from elsewhere, supernatural agents and such.

        What's going on in nature can be used to illustrate how natural laws actually are bringing complexity and thinking into being right in front of our eyes all the time, even if we can't follow a causal thread back to time zero (assuming there is a beginning of time).

        Neither the sperm cell or the egg cell are thinking humans. Yet, when they combine, they undergo a progressive transformation which builds to a human. This does not happen by incantation, there are natural forces which cause this to happen in repeatable and predictable ways. The egg and sperm combine, and sometime later you have a living being, and if human, hopefully one who's thinking is not distorted by culture.

        There are innumerable examples in nature of complexity and properties emerging by way of natural processes and not one credible defensible example of any process which came into being by way of magic. Plenty which we cannot explain, and may never be abe to explain, but none for which the billions of proponents of magic have yet to explain either (assert answers yes, but not explain).
        We know very little, but it seems to me that what we do know is arrived at by experience combined with reason, or at least a mind prepared sufficiently to appreciate when an answer jumps out, so to speak.

        The fact that so much is not known and may never be known, or that our minds may be simply to limiited to understand nature, is no reason to cast doubt on the very process which has got us this far, that of reason itsself, of which the methods of science are a subset.
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          Mar 16 2013: G’day Peter

          I see it this way peter, what most spiritually aware people see as supernatural I see as a natural occurrence the problem is science has also looked at in a supernatural way because that’s how spiritual people perceive it but scientists today have gotten over this thought mode in having nothing to do with anything called supernatural as they are now proving it’s quite a natural occurrence like with how vibrations affect us.

          There are a lot of fairyland people who look at nature & see supernatural which is fine but as long as they don’t interfere with scientific progress. I know evolution has work what some would call miracles but with complex thought I’m just not personally influenced as yet that nature as we know it at the moment on it’s own gave us complex thought. I look at the conscious changes in human history let’s say from the Stone Age to the bronze age melting rocks down to make metal tools which is a huge advancement, I know this happened over a long period of time but???

          I believe by studying nature including the universe we will eventually find the answer but we won’t find it through hoogly-booly stuff in realities like this one it must be done scientifically.

          Love
          Mathew
      • Mar 16 2013: matthew of course science is in war and babies what are you trying to prove? all wars have those three components for almost all time what im saying is if we simply removed the religious aspect of it irrational killing would stop and ok i got a question can you tell me where god came from? and the matter that created him? your arguent can be flipped with the same effect for both but i can't tell you our entire history because our limited knowledge as humans but we have good ideas of how all those things happened and it definitely didn't start by god burping now i'm not an atheist im agnostic because it IS illogical to think there is no god but there is no way he is how we think he is if there is a god it would just be a ridiculously advanced alien species or a even crazier though is that we are our own god because i believe that eventually we will have time travel and who knows maybe we created the universe haha it would be pretty cool but i somehow doubt it
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          Mar 16 2013: Re: " if we simply removed the religious aspect of it irrational killing would stop"
          Religion is not the source of irrational behavior. There is plenty of irrational behavior among people who have nothing to do or even are against religion.

          Re: " where god came from". This question has no meaning. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Don't you need two hands to clap? "Where does light go when it goes out?" Questions about god are circular. They are questions about ourselves. Why is it reasonable to believe that the universe created itself from nothing and unreasonable to believe the same about God? I, personally, believe in self-creation.
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          Mar 16 2013: G’day Charles

          The point was Chrales you seemed to making out that all wars where religiously based when religion is & has always been a part of human history of course religion is going to play some factor in wars just like babies & the whole family structure who are the true victims of war.

          I’m with you on actual religious wars like with the crusades, Spanish inquisition & the thirty year war & so on because it does seem if it wasn’t for religion these wars wouldn’t have started in the first place but I’m afraid human nature doesn’t need much of a fanatical ideology to commit such heinous crimes against humanity. I’m sure if we had no church religion we would have found some other sort of ideological ideology to fight over.

          Believe it or not to a certain extent I’m on your side because I can see how religion has segregated humanity but what I’m saying if it wasn’t for religion I’m sure humanity would have found something else to fight over but of course I could be wrong as I’m just surmising on this as you are.

          Love
          Mathew
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      Mar 16 2013: Charles, Support for some of what you claim (religion linked to violence) can be found in the work of Steven Pinker. He has studied the history of violence (as well as language, and the human mind in general) and makes the point that moralistic motives are the source of much, if not most, violence, on both the small and large scale. He cites Nazism as an example.

      You might find his 8 minute talk on human nature interesting
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDJJ1KydgE

      ..
      My own limited few of history suggests that if Catholicism had not fueled anti-semitism across Europe for a thousand years before Hitler came long, there likely would have been no Holocaust.
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      Mar 16 2013: Charles,

      Re: " i personally believe ALL irrationality has its origins in religion this is not counting irrationality from strong emotions though but society frowns on that irrationality but not religious ones?"

      If you make an exception, you cannot say ALL irrationality has its origin in religion. I don't see anything wrong with irrational beliefs such as "God created universe" or "the universe came out of nothing by itself". The problem is when people confuse rational with irrational - emotional experiences with physical experience, science with spirituality. Then they confuse feelings with knowledge and start thinking that their beliefs have more merit than someone else's.

      This is why I see a great danger of scientists thinking that moral rules can come from their research.

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