This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »
Are science & spirituality one and the same?
I believe they are it’s just they use different deductive reasoning processors to evaluate to become further aware, what do you think?
Topics:
"Last frontier" (mind) A b Reasoning
Mathew Naismith 10+
I would like to thank everybody for their participation even the people I clashed with.
“To clash with others is not others at fault but my own for one must look inside to why one clashed in the first place not others”
This has been quite a mind opener & I am all more the aware for it thanks to your participation.
Love
Mathew
Jason Nobles
Mathew Naismith 10+
Well said
Love
Mathew
Mirian Bethancourt
There is a fine line between the two but spirituality has more to do with our humanistic qualities, the essence of who we are, ie., our character.
Love and concern for one another are spiritual qualities, but they are invisible virtues ,positive emotions, that science has yet to explain. Religion may be dedicated to encourage the growth of these qualities, but it is not an inherent part of them.
Mathew Naismith 10+
Yes but people who are against spiritualism period in any form like to always bring up the worse scenario which is very human to do so, I thought it was obvious what I meant but that’s OK as it all panned out in the end.
Love
Mathew
Charles Curt
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
I guess, this was in response to my post. Unfortunately, there is no time for you to answer - feel free to send me a personal message.
Irrationality that you describe here is not due to religion. It is rooted in our neurology. Our thinking process is not much different from that of a Pavlov's dog that established a link between a bell and the food. This is how superstitions are born. Religious superstitions seem to be a sequence of this physiology which causes irrational beliefs, not the other way around. Science can disprove a particular myth, it cannot disprove religion in general.
Mathew Naismith 10+
We are definitely on the same page Arkady as I agree with you fully with how one can know about nothingness, it was a very good point to bring up.
There is an Ekhart Tolle who is spiritually aware & he tells us in his books to live for the here & now because that is what’s happening which makes a lot of sense not that I agree with everything he says or anyone else for that matter.
We have limits & we will always have limits, I’ve said previously that science will prove or disprove everything one day even the existence or non-existence of a God but of course that might not be quite the case because I can see we will always be limited by some sort of mode of thought.
Love
Mathew
Charles Curt
Mathew Naismith 10+
I guessed this is in reply to my counter reply to you earlier Charles. Your use of sarcasm within your replies confuses the issue which I also do at times myself.
You don’t think if we didn’t have spiritual religion we wouldn’t fight over other ideological views & beliefs like let’s say my science is more correct than yours or your science is antiquated to ours so we will dominate you, yes this is also of religion because the meaning of the word religion is having a belief system of any kind not just of spiritual religion.
Look I can see your point about spiritual based religion but to bash one religious concept & not another is a little biased to me. If you are not just talking about spiritual religion but all religions (beliefs) fair enough but it sounds like you are. Science is but another belief as I believe in the concepts of science. If you don’t think science has anything to do with world dominance think again, Hitler at the time was far more technologically advanced when he started conquering Europe & because of this he thought he was invincible but of course it didn’t take long for the allies to catch up. I’m not happy with the way spiritual religions have conducted themselves at times either but don’t put all spirituality in the same basket that would be ludicrous.
Love
Mathew
Amanda Plunkett
Religion, like science, can inform spirituality but is not itself spirituality (I do not wish to equate science and religion here, they just have the ability to serve this similar function). Spirituality is a necessarily individual thing and even if someone is accessing their "spiritual-self" through coming to an understanding of certain sciences or religious doctrines they are still going to experience what spirituality fundamentally is for them, which is going to be different than it is for anyone else.
I think this is the best explanation I can offer without defining spirituality. I choose not to define it because I think language is a medium not well-suited to things of a spiritual nature. And I feel that defining it within language cannot fully do it justice.
Mathew Naismith 10+
Thanks you for your response.
Fiona just below made a good point that both science & true spirituality work towards awareness in one way or another either it be awareness of an atom or ourselves. Spirituality is like phycology it digs into the very soul to explain our feeling in why we are feeling angry or depressed & gives us solutions that actually work simular to phycology & phycology is a science. I’m not talking about hoogly-boogly spirituality I’m talking about spirituality that has been proven by science to work & why, it is funny how so many people equate spirituality to just the hoogly-boogly stuff or is this done on purpose by those who don’t believe?
Love
Mathew
Tyler Hopkins
So if we look at it that way they are different. On the other hand if you look at HOW they do what they do, they are almost identical if done appropriately. The only significant difference is spirituality must acknowledge state of being where as science does not and hence can not answer the first question.
Mathew Naismith 10+
This is the thing, it depends on how you look at them if they are going to seem the same or not. Fiona made a good point earlier that they both are about awareness but does this make them the same? It’s a bit of a paradox because it’s a yes & no because this isn’t the only thing that makes them simular if not the same. If you take in also science derived from both philosophy & mysticism & that science probably wouldn’t be around without these two you would have to say yes they are the same but modern day science has been quite separate from these two so you would say no however I think that is changing again to a certain extent again.
I asked a question earlier where did matter & anti-matter come from in the first place to not just create this universe but to also create a complex diverse mode of thought (thinking)? Funny enough I didn’t get an answer because surely we couldn’t blindly accept it was just there if by magic!!
Love
Mathew
Tyler Hopkins
Mathew Naismith 10+
Ah I get you, it is a different way of looking at it & I wonder why the rest of us haven't looked at it in quite this way before.
It comes down to spirituality can answer both questions but science only one but we are indeed using the same technique so why can't science answer the first question? It obviously doesn't have the capabilities as yet. I do think science one day will be able to answer the first question.
It is funny what we do scientifically in practice is what we do in spirituality they both have the same effect just with different facets of life. This is why I love scientists who are open minded you are the future & an important part of our future but I suppose a truly open minded spiritualist is the same & like with an open minded scientists they are hard to come by.
One more thing, if you look at psychology which is a science they are very much alike as they are both interested in one’s wellbeing mentally & spiritually. I know a lot of spiritually aware people dismiss the mind as thoughtless chatter but if it wasn’t for the mind they wouldn’t recall let’s say a mediative experience for starters I know this because I worked with disabled people for a while, some are conscious of very little of what’s around them & have no way of being aware of more than their conscious understanding allows.
Love
Mathew
Fiona Milnes
Somebody else also said that to talk about science and spirituality is actually useful. We could find arguments to say just about any 'this & that' is one and the same.
I am very interested in scientific developments and discoveries and learn a great deal, but I am also interested by much recent scientific research that, altho disproves previously held scientific ideologies, matches those I've learnt about through Buddhist teachings.
Mathew Naismith 10+
Now this is a good point, true spirituality is about awareness & so is science. I find the biggest problem we have in the west is we get an ideology & turn it into something else to suite our own ideologies which totally changes the intimal ideological belief to something quite different. You look at Yoga how that has been changed, one person here didn’t even realise the spiritual aspects of Yoga. You can’t practice Yoga or any other eastern ideology properly if you only understand what you want out of these ideologies & spiritual practices.
Our own spirituality in the west is churched based with certain doctrines to follow that can hinder our awareness but if one is happy within this system that’s a good thing as long as they don’t push their ideologies onto people who are more spiritually aware because they don’t have the same hindrances within their beliefs but in saying this the east also have certain religions that do exactly the same as western religions have & still do today.
So do you think they are one of the same Fiona? But of course this depends on which way one looks at them.
Love
Mathew
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
I hesitate to summarize it without again first reading it myself but I love what he said so much I think I can do it some justice "off the top of my head"
What he basically said is that they are two different vectors of humanity..two different expressions of humanity not meant to be reconciled and not necessarily reconcilable but both essential expressions of humanity. He characterized spiritulaity as that open yearning towards something beyond what we know and "possess"..sort of the universal wordless fire in the belly of humanity that keeps us asking questions and looking for answers and evolving towards something worhy. Spirituality he said is about our aspirations and dreams and inspirations.
Please don't rely on my characterization..Please do read it. So beautiful.
Mathew Naismith 10+
I'm not a hoggly-boogly fairyland spiritually aware person myself that thinks that everything that science can't explain yet is somehow of the spiritual because to me everything is of the spiritual even a scientist discovering something new, now that’s magic without the hoogly-boogly stuff. Nothing is hoogly-boogly magical as it's all of natural process that in time will be explained properly through processes like science.
Love
Mathew
Charles Curt
peter ezzell
Mathew, what's your dog's name?
He looks to be a happy alert little chap
Mathew Naismith 10+
This isn't my dog, the dog it belonged to the people who ran a farm stay we stayed at. I gather the dog in the picture is yours Peter; they do get under your skin. My wife ran over our little dog some time ago &we never got another one to replace it.
Love
Mathew
Ina Bliss
Science uses yesterday's crystallization to "prove" and "disprove", always at least 1 step behind, while dissecting the immeasurable - like a salt-water drop trying to "dissect" the ocean.
It makes every one believe they LIVE on a spinning BALL, while they cannot even stand on one. A Ball HAS NO horizon, and CANNOT BE "measured" in "square" anything, or divided in grids, while navigated with FLAT maps of quadrants, and being covered with FLAT water that does not bend, unless falling...
The Absolute One (Sh'ma), called God, in order to give Him glory, wants us to RISE ABOVE what "is" and acquire the wisdom (lit. white field: error-FREE realm) to BE AS GODS, acquire eternal life by overcoming "death" via the ONLY gateway: the Mind.
peter ezzell
Well, this certainly brought clarity to the issue
Ina Bliss
Any "scientist", or is it seance-operator for there LITERALLY IS NO "past", for light supersedes itself every trillionth of each second whereby replenishing the visible, should know that Unless The Universe (ONE verse) would be SIMULTANEOUSLY run in Absolute Timing & Synchronous Precision (RAM!), NOTHING could exist?
Charles Curt
also you're wrong both of those were started from religious problems WWI arch duke ferdenand was assassinated leading to treaties of countries combing into a world waar so religion started WWI as for WW2 hitler believed his race was divine and that jews were the cause of all problems so that was also caused by religion and almost every war is either directly caused by religion or religious aspects effect judgement leading to war i'd love you to give me a real example of a war without religious baggage attached to it
Mathew Naismith 10+
They weren't religious wars or religious based wars, show me a war that didn't incorperate some sort of science in it especially modern warfare. This is a rediculous argument, show me a war that didn't involve babies or weapons, come on!!
You can not actually prove everything of any religion wrong that is again rediculous, you can theorise but you can't give me physical proof. Prove to me that God doesn't exist but don't theorise give me hard physical proof.
With world II in particular the reason why Hitler & his Nazi party was against the jews wasn't because of religion but how the jews in his country & the world ran the world ecomony to thier own benifit while German people where starving to death.
Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not a religious Christian.
Can I ask you a question, can you tell me where the matter came from to create the universe & our complex mind? Don't blindly tell me is was just there or it appeared out of thin air. Surely you can't believe that just physcial matter created complex thinking as that sounds awfuly like blind faith?
Love
Mathew
PS By the way I'm also into science & I follow no organised beloefe system as I find all organised beliefe systems dogmatic to some degree or another just like scientists can be.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Mathew Naismith 10+
I had a chat to a couple of people of German decent & they said that the Jews controlled the money system like with banks, gold & so forth & where blamed for the great depression but like with anything radical the Nazi’s where good at propaganda & they did persecute anyone not a socialist &/or inferior to them unless they could use them to their advantage.
Love
Mathew
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
There is a sarcastic poem by Igor Guberman, a Jewish poet from Russia:
Везде, где есть цивилизация
И свет звезды планету греет,
Есть обязательная нация
Для роли тамошних евреев.
Which roughly translates
Wherever there is a civilization under the sun, there is a nation designated for the role of Jews.
Mathew Naismith 10+
I brought up a discussion on how eastern spiritual ideologies where more sound & less corrupted than western spiritual ideologies, didn't the westerners get into me but they will knock easterners for what ever but they have a hard time looking at themselves truthfuly.
I'm not a very popular person because I will call a spade & spade & question science & spiritual dogmas, & ideologies with the same vigure & at the same time look at myself in how critical I am of others.
In saying I'm not popular personally one on one isn't quite right becuase I get on quite well with a number of spiritual aware people unless they become too dogmatic & egotistical which is rare as I only like to be around genuine people.
Love
Mathew
Charles Curt
Yes you are right there is still irrationality in the world even without religion but the religion based wars would cease completely (also i mean 3rd world countries not the US) and we could finally wage war on actual problems not made up ones
and with the god created from nothing YES you are absolutely correct it means nothing so why would you believe the same sort of argument but on the other side believing god did create it from nothing because the truth is God has never been proven the only proof we have is irration fanatics from thousands of years ago telling us they talked to god how do we know these people aren't just like the fanatics today hearing their own head and interpreting as messages from god i know many many Many! christians who think they have heard god or spoken to him it is just Insanity nothing more except we tolerate these insane irrational people because i may be wrong but i personally believe ALL irrationality has its origins in religion this is not counting irrationality from strong emotions though but society frowns on that irrationality but not religious ones?
peter ezzell
What's going on in nature can be used to illustrate how natural laws actually are bringing complexity and thinking into being right in front of our eyes all the time, even if we can't follow a causal thread back to time zero (assuming there is a beginning of time).
Neither the sperm cell or the egg cell are thinking humans. Yet, when they combine, they undergo a progressive transformation which builds to a human. This does not happen by incantation, there are natural forces which cause this to happen in repeatable and predictable ways. The egg and sperm combine, and sometime later you have a living being, and if human, hopefully one who's thinking is not distorted by culture.
There are innumerable examples in nature of complexity and properties emerging by way of natural processes and not one credible defensible example of any process which came into being by way of magic. Plenty which we cannot explain, and may never be abe to explain, but none for which the billions of proponents of magic have yet to explain either (assert answers yes, but not explain).
We know very little, but it seems to me that what we do know is arrived at by experience combined with reason, or at least a mind prepared sufficiently to appreciate when an answer jumps out, so to speak.
The fact that so much is not known and may never be known, or that our minds may be simply to limiited to understand nature, is no reason to cast doubt on the very process which has got us this far, that of reason itsself, of which the methods of science are a subset.
Mathew Naismith 10+
I see it this way peter, what most spiritually aware people see as supernatural I see as a natural occurrence the problem is science has also looked at in a supernatural way because that’s how spiritual people perceive it but scientists today have gotten over this thought mode in having nothing to do with anything called supernatural as they are now proving it’s quite a natural occurrence like with how vibrations affect us.
There are a lot of fairyland people who look at nature & see supernatural which is fine but as long as they don’t interfere with scientific progress. I know evolution has work what some would call miracles but with complex thought I’m just not personally influenced as yet that nature as we know it at the moment on it’s own gave us complex thought. I look at the conscious changes in human history let’s say from the Stone Age to the bronze age melting rocks down to make metal tools which is a huge advancement, I know this happened over a long period of time but???
I believe by studying nature including the universe we will eventually find the answer but we won’t find it through hoogly-booly stuff in realities like this one it must be done scientifically.
Love
Mathew
Charles Curt
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Religion is not the source of irrational behavior. There is plenty of irrational behavior among people who have nothing to do or even are against religion.
Re: " where god came from". This question has no meaning. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Don't you need two hands to clap? "Where does light go when it goes out?" Questions about god are circular. They are questions about ourselves. Why is it reasonable to believe that the universe created itself from nothing and unreasonable to believe the same about God? I, personally, believe in self-creation.
Mathew Naismith 10+
The point was Chrales you seemed to making out that all wars where religiously based when religion is & has always been a part of human history of course religion is going to play some factor in wars just like babies & the whole family structure who are the true victims of war.
I’m with you on actual religious wars like with the crusades, Spanish inquisition & the thirty year war & so on because it does seem if it wasn’t for religion these wars wouldn’t have started in the first place but I’m afraid human nature doesn’t need much of a fanatical ideology to commit such heinous crimes against humanity. I’m sure if we had no church religion we would have found some other sort of ideological ideology to fight over.
Believe it or not to a certain extent I’m on your side because I can see how religion has segregated humanity but what I’m saying if it wasn’t for religion I’m sure humanity would have found something else to fight over but of course I could be wrong as I’m just surmising on this as you are.
Love
Mathew
peter ezzell
You might find his 8 minute talk on human nature interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDJJ1KydgE
..
My own limited few of history suggests that if Catholicism had not fueled anti-semitism across Europe for a thousand years before Hitler came long, there likely would have been no Holocaust.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Re: " i personally believe ALL irrationality has its origins in religion this is not counting irrationality from strong emotions though but society frowns on that irrationality but not religious ones?"
If you make an exception, you cannot say ALL irrationality has its origin in religion. I don't see anything wrong with irrational beliefs such as "God created universe" or "the universe came out of nothing by itself". The problem is when people confuse rational with irrational - emotional experiences with physical experience, science with spirituality. Then they confuse feelings with knowledge and start thinking that their beliefs have more merit than someone else's.
This is why I see a great danger of scientists thinking that moral rules can come from their research.
Mathew Naismith 10+
I take it that outside the cosmos it’s dead space, it has no driving force to propel anything so how did the matter & anti-matter come into contact in dead space to create the universe & complex thought on its own?
Love
Mathew
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
There is no space outside the universe. Space and time do not have meaning without massive particles.
Some people believe that the universe started from "nothing". What's funny is that some people are convinced that science has evidence of this. I've talked to a devout atheist who said to me trying to explain the concept that "before" the big bang, there was no time and no space and no matter - just emptiness. I'm still wondering when that was and what was empty.
When space, time, and laws of physics loose meaning, we don't get "nothing". We get complete uncertainty and lack of meaning. Meaning and certainty are created when we start drawing boundaries and can distinguish between "A" and "not A". "Meaning is exclusion" http://www.logictutorial.com/. The more possibilities we exclude by what we say, the more meaningful is our statement.
So, you can say that "science is the same as spirituality" or "emotional experience is the same as physical experience". But such statements are not useful. If you want meaning and knowledge, you have to draw boundaries and definitions. The unit of information is one bit. It simply symbolizes distinction between "yes" and "no", "true" and "false", "logical high" and "logical low", "on" and "off", "heaven and earth", "light and darkness". More bits (or boundaries) means more information (more knowledge). This is how meaning, knowledge, and the universe are created as described in Genesis.
I suggest that we do not confuse our physical experience with our emotional or "spiritual" experience. Much evil comes from this confusion between science and spirituality, between faith and knowledge.
Mathew Naismith 10+
Is there unequivocal proof that there is nothing outside of this universe or are they just theorising because that is what they are doing in relation with matter appearing out of thin air/nothingness? How can scientists measure nothing & be absolutely sure of their deductions? Don’t you need time which is of space to measure something? We can only think in a mode of thought of time & space unless we learn to think in a different thought mode which conscious changes have done in our past I believe.
If we flounder about in one thought mode our knowing is going to stall like it did in the dark ages so yes I can see your point in having boundaries & definitions as this is exactly what science is all about however asking others if they think science & spirituality are of the same thing is of that same process I believe in finding definition & boundaries between these two.
I’ve conversed with a lot of spiritually aware people & most of them think science is unnecessary which is a very sad thing indeed because they think everything outside of this reality is just unconditional love except for other realities & dimensions like ours & this is where most of them want to be. A lot this new age spirituality I find is quite scary within their ideological views, concepts & beliefs. What I find so funny is they desire to be somewhere else but desire denotes ego but they detest the ego as well, I don’t get it!!!! I’ve actually written up about this on my blog recently about this type of ideology & how flawed it is & why it’s so flawed.
Love
Mathew
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Mary M. 100+
Your comment reminded me of something I read once:
"Modern science is based on the principle: give us one free miracle and we'll explain the rest."
Your conversation is a good one. I hope you learn alot through the comments and discussions that have are taking place....
Mary
Mathew Naismith 10+
Thank you I have become a little more aware & knowing, I do like to put my foot in it as one can only learn by doing so no matter how uncomfortable it can be.
Love
Mathew
Vincenzo Sergi
cheers
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Science is the way we know things.
Spirituality is the way we feel about things.
By "know" I mean perception through physical means.
By "feel" I mean emotional perception.
We can have feelings about what we know that determine our attitude towards what we know - like, dislike, fear, dread, expect, enjoy. These feelings often cause us to ignore what we know (hopefully, not), or interpret it differently, and they drive practical conclusions from our knowledge - give us direction to act. Motives are not derived from mere knowledge.
Mathew Naismith 10+
Perfect within my understanding, they are one of the same. My question is how did just matter create comp-lex thinking on it's own & where did matter & anti-matter come from in the first place? Not out of thin air surely becaus that's illogical!!!!
Love
Mathew
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Circular reasoning, when conclusion is assumed in one of the premises or when consequence is necessary for the cause to exist, is invalid. There are no logical answers or rational explanations to these things. Such statements are inherently uncertain and lack meaning. Meaning and certainty come from "spirit" - our emotional perception of reality.
Examples of circular statements: "if God created everything that is, seen and unseen, then who created God?" "Can God almighty create a rock too heavy for him to lift?" "Is benevolent and almighty God willing and able to eliminate evil?" "Can omniscient and omnipotent God who knows what will happen change the future?" "The universe created itself from nothing" "There was time when there was no time", "just say NO to negativism", "protect the rights of unborn women!", "I pray God to save me from his followers", etc., etc.
I don't expect any meaningful conclusions from these "deep thoughts". Nonsense - that's all it is. Just make an emotional choice and stick to it. But don't say that your choice is "rational".
Christopher An
How do you define space and time? Is space and time something spirit like or matter?
And yes about your "quantum vacuum fluctuation", if vacuum is something, it is possible to have matter and anti-matter come from it because something can come out from something. However, something cannot come out from nothing, this is a logical thinking. Then where did the first particle(or a dense mass) come from which created big bang??
Surely something cannot come from nothing!
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
If I understand anything about physics, space and time cannot have any meaning without moving massive particles. Space is used to describe position of bodies relative to each other, and time is used to describe the movement. So, space and time could not have "existed" or been defined before matter. They are properties of material world - not "spiritual". To have "vacuum" we must have space. To have "fluctuation" we must have time. I can believe that particles can appear from quantum vacuum fluctuations. But quantum vacuum is not "nothing".
I can believe that matter appeared from "nothing" if somebody tells me what this "nothing" is. The problem is that once you give it a definition, it's "something", not "nothing". One cannot give a definition of "nothing". And without such definition the phrase "the universe came from nothing" is meaningless.
So, in my view, the universe did not come from "nothing", but rather "something certain" appeared from complete uncertainty. I find it consistent with quantum physics.
Christopher An
Thanks a bunch
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
W. Ying 10+
My answer:
the comment just below.
Mathew Naismith 10+
To me spirtaulity is of everything because everything came from the same creative conscious source simular to how the universe was created from one source matter, matter & anti-matter, it's indeed very much all connected.
Love
Mathew
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
W. Ying 10+
Yes.
They are same.
Spirituality is the results of processing by our brain (a computer made from living cells).
It may contain wrong program-data.
(For details, see the 1st article, point 2(5), at
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D&id=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D%21283&sc=documents).
Mathew Naismith 10+
Indeed, the brain is dumb without input but spirituality is that imput as everything is of the spritual so science has to be of the spiritual.
I don't get it that others don't get it especially when we know that science evolved from mysticism & philosophy in the first place but that's just me & obviously you as well!!
Love
Mathew
Christopher An
In my opinion, science and spirituality is something totally different since they have so many different perspectives. Science can be seen physically and it is able to interact with us by using physical ways such as taste, seeing, touching, and etc. However spirituality is complete opposite. We cannot detect or see spirituality nor we can feel. That is because spirit is not detectable when using scientific method.
^ something that i learned in my school.. I go to catholic school but I am agnostic.
Mathew Naismith 10+
What if I told you spirituality is everything quite simular to how the universe was created from one source matter, basically what I am saying it's all consciousness including matter.
Where did the matter & anit-matter come from & don't tell me it was just there or it just materialised out of thin air, you can't believe surely that matter on it's own created complex thought?
Love
Mathew
Christopher An
Can spirituality be something that includes consciousness including matter? I don't think spirituality could have had matter also included in it since matter(something) cannot come from nothing. In order for spirit to create matter, spirit would have to transform into a materialistic form since matter cannot come from spirit directly. Either it was spirituality that came from thin air(the first uncaused cause) or there is another way to explain this. Since humanity cannot figure out the exact answer, for now we would have to rely on our thoughts and philosophical thoughts..
Charles Curt
Mathew Naismith 10+
Science is proving spirituality to have some founding especially in the area of vibrasional influences, they can now see how certain vibrations as chanting, singing, praying, instrument playing & so forth can have certain effects on humans. Don't get me wrong I'm not into hoogly-boogly stuff either but I'm not that ignorant to dismiss spirituality all together.
What was moral about the two world wars & the multitude of other wars that weren't religious??
Love
Mathew
Charles Curt
Mathew Naismith 10+
I gather by this statement you give no grounding to spirituality at all even though science derived from mysticism & philosophy in the first place.
I will put it this way, we are still fighting in religious wars after many centuries however science has found better ways to conduct these wars in a more deadlier fashion, you can’t see a link or a connection here? They go hand in hand.
Love
Mathew
Mohan Dass
Try to get hold of the old theories of scientific facts and you will find that scientists say the non eurpean races have no god, and if they do those gods are primitive. Gods like Ogun a African god.
Did Europe have pagen gods before christianity was introduced by the classical Greeks?
Mathew Naismith 10+
I believe they did...you’re not saying science could have it wrong again, that's blasphemous!!
Love Mathew
Charles Curt
peter ezzell
Another angle -
If we look at spiritual endeavors as those which brings meaning to one's life, as I tend to do, then I can't see how there is a one-to-one correspondence between science and spirituality. But neither do I think science falls outside of those activities or mind-sets which bring meaning.
Recommended - 5 minutes with philosopher AC Grayling talking about meaning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqXz9if0n_I
I see science as a refinement of the reasoning process which helps us understand the world around us, to identify facts and to group those facts within theoretical frameworks which become models of our universe.
How can wondering about and exploring nature using our minds not be spiritual?
Mathew Naismith 10+
A spiritually aware person is in there element when exploring in wonderment as of a scientist, some of these scientists are really wacko in a sense they are out there somewhere because of their own wonderment of our environment through exploration so yes I would agree with your very good point Peter, it is indeed just as spiritual (exhilarating) for an open minded scientist than it is for a spiritually aware person.
Love
Mathew
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Grayling mentions that "meaning" is our attitude towards life. I agree. "Wondering" about life is spiritual. It's an emotional impulse. The motives for doing science are spiritual. Attitude towards science is spiritual. Attitude towards knowledge is spiritual. Science itself or knowledge itself are not. There is nothing spiritual in cold physical facts.
Physical experiences are different from emotional experiences. We cannot have a physical experience without having an emotional experience, and people often confuse the two. E.g. taking a cold shower is just a physical experience. On a hot summer day and on a cold winter day, physical experience from a cold shower is the same. But emotional experience (our reaction or attitude) is quite different. Emotional experience motivates us to seek or avoid the same physical experience.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Science tells us how to get where we want. "Spirit" tells us where we want to get.
By "spirit" I mean belief system, will power, love and other passions driving us towards various goals. These do not seem to be derived from facts, physical evidence, or reason.
Leslie Bachert
Leslie Bachert
Charan Singh
Leslie Bachert
bart hsi
Let me add a comment to the distinction between the spirituality and science. spirituality comes from human conciousness about the environment and about himself. And science is just a physical exploration driven by his curiousity. about his physical environment. And religion really has very little influence to the war, it is simply utilized to justify the human nature of selective competition among ourselves.
Charan Singh
Mathew Naismith 10+
This is but another hypothesis- What’s the difference between an ant & a human being remembering everything that exists vibrates? That’s obvious through observation however forget what we can see & look at the molecular structure & at the very atoms that make up an ant & a human. They vibrate at a different frequencies to each other as a whole which give them their form now change that frequency to more a human like frequency what then would be the difference? It of course would have to be human as well. Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying we can do this but what I am saying is there’s little difference between the two when you look at it in a vibratory sense, it’s how we look at things that define it what it is.
The point is what is the vibrative difference between spirituality & science at the very core remembering science derived from mysticism & philosophy in the first place? I know when we look at science & spirituality like the ant & the human we see one being of logical fact & one of feelings they are obviously quite different but when one digs deeper & looks at them in a vibratory sense they seem not so different after all.
Love
Mathew