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What is the opposite of "Idea " ?
Concept / idea - what could be the most closest opposite of it ?
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Chris Kelly 20+
Charan Singh
Ed Schulte 50+
http://ec.libsyn.com/p/7/d/e/7de4e7a24ee48259/Peter_Adamson_on_Avicennas_Flying_Man.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01ce8437d4c1550fe3&c_id=5176985
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
I do ! :)
natasha nikulina 50+
Hi, Ed , thanks for the link !
Charan Singh
@Natasha - Interestingly this happens - more than often with me -what you called synchronicity;)
natasha nikulina 50+
Plato described a mystic experience as a flight of ALONE to the ALONE.
Mathematically, it's ONE without the second.
I guess, it's what the Sufi refer to as "Turning the UNIVERSE INSIDE OUT"
Ed Schulte 50+
Well they have another express which echoes Plato's description very directly
"Alone with the Alone"
This is another good example of how much "cross pollination" went on between the so -call "Eastern Mystics and the greek ( and carried on with Roman) Philosophers
Two good refs
http://books.google.ca/books/about/Alone_with_the_Alone.html?id=1Sx-YE8ngKEC
http://books.google.ca/books?id=6FrXAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_similarbooks
natasha nikulina 50+
Ideas are spreading and no one is in control, absolutely no one ! :)
Casey Christofaris 10+
Would you be open to a new idea on what language really is?
Charan Singh
Sure !!
Would appreciate your take on the following as well it seems following may have missed your attention. Thanks.
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_christian_big_history.html
Please check 13:13 onwards of this talk by David Christian, so we have a common lens - and why some one should be hooked to language ? No , Casey, I m not a language professional just fascinated , passionate about it as a way to finding meaning !! Before the Buzz words of Science or Relgion set bias / barriers in search of Meaning !! The One and Only
Casey Christofaris 10+
" At all times in mans history, man makes reference to a God or gods in order to explain or bring an understanding to concepts that he,(man) did not posse. Eventually, given time, science focused on explaining the mystery of the unexplainable. As knowledge increased over time, so did understanding. What was once attributed to God is now known through science. My belief is, religion was the precursor to science. Religion tried to answer questions that man had, and when the answer was not available it was given over to the realm of God. We must have an evolutionary need to have answers, and God was the provider of those answers. I believe that man created God. We created a divine God to be the keeper of answers to mysteries we did not yet have.
Gods have always existed because the answers to our questions have always existed, we just did not have the understanding at the time.
God provided or became the answer without needing the understanding." Dennis Hollinger
So what is language? What gives us the ability to communicate? It is the way the wind blows passed your vocal cords which creates sound. So does that mean all string instruments speak language? They most certainly create sound. What about sign language or body language? No sound made. Is that language? All vibrations carry information, it actually what addicts get addicted to the information. Now if god had a language or a vibration or a feeling do you think people would get addicted to it?
But like all languages, what do you think got lost translation? It is hard to provide the answers when you do not know the questions? But here on earth we start with the answers and then ask god for the questions?
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
Re : "On a positive note if the connection is found - more compassion, fellowship, collaboration will flow amongst us.It seems it is an idea of working together to find an answer to a question for which the knowledge is spread all around - amongst us."
You are so right !!!
All our thinking about oneness will be nothing more but the lazy habit of thinking if we can't find the way to implement it into our daily life. Maybe we have already found the connection but it's not that easy to "love your neighbour as thyself " We need to learn to love, i believe it's the only reason we are here.
Thank you and have a nice day !
Charan Singh
Casey Christofaris 10+
This is how objective morality should look;
We should redefine what peace is? Because whom are you to tell me what my peace is? See if you think we practiced the Golden Rule as defined as this we could create peace.
Its reciprocal, if party (y) want to have crazy kinky sex then he/she needs to find party (x) that also wants kinky sex and then the do on to others how they would want to be treated and have some crazy kinky sex. If party (y) want to have crazy kinky sex but party (z) does not want to then guess what you do on to others how you would want to be treated and don't have kinky sex with party (z) Because chances are there is something that party y does not want to do. (maybe party z want to kill some one) All he needs to do is find some one who is willing to die and kill them, if he cant find a party to kill, he doesn't do it. He respects the other person choices as if the are his own.
So if 2 parties want to kill each other from what they describe as peace or the greatest glory they can do for their god let them do it. It only becomes a problem when one party does not want to kill the other. Or be killed
"this is why we have consent forms, no consent no business"
Orlando Hawkins 20+
You really are a big fan of QM aren't you? What spiked your interest in QM and eastern spirituality?
natasha nikulina 50+
what unites these two seemingly separate if not opposed world views is the idea of the indivisible invisible Whole.
"you are throne and palace and king " hence the Whole. Nothing has independent existence from anything else.
The majority of scientists and scientifically minded people tend to think, that only layman's mind can make this connection and maybe it' true, for a lot of reasons, mostly due for more holistic approach. On the other hand, some leading scientists in the field , like David Bohm and his followers do the same. So, i am in a good company here :)
Thanks for asking !
Charan Singh
Casey Christofaris 10+
natasha nikulina 50+
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
You see now i haven't hit the bulls eye :) I didn't quite understand what you meant by ' English mother tongue adopted me'
I thought that you referred to infant glossolalia as natural mother tongue. Some linguists tend to think it's the case.
A baby enjoys sounds, it produces sounds investing no meaning into them, a sound partakes no quality but it's own, like a colour for a baby. Shamans speak in tongues to sing reality into existence. Shamanic culture is a humanity's babyhood.
In this context our natural mother tongue that adopted us is our first language after we stop entertain glossolalia.
So, to make it clear, Russian is my natural mother tongue and the only mother tongue. My first language. English is my second language, the only second language so far but i am optimistic :)
Is English your second language, if yes, what is the first ?.
Thanks !
Charan Singh
to what you rightly said "humanity's babyhood. " You may agree - both threads that I started were intended to explore -with collectively knowledge /wisdom's participation -more on that piece of connection only.
natasha nikulina 50+
Old preliterate/pre written languages were audial languages, i am not sure about the 'visual' part.
Our modern languages are abstract, we operate with ' means ' ( means ' are the smallest concepts of meaning ) .
OK... you see, a lot to think about together :)
Could you help me with a proper link on GuRMuKhee ? I've found this
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurmukhi
looks not bad, but i would appreciate your recommendations.
Thank you !
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
Re: "does one need anything else ?"
To reprogramme the mind , each of us have between our ears, not more not less than that :) And, i think, the right place to start is to realise that what we have is MIND which we perceive through mind/language.
I think, that language is the thin web on which our perception of the reality hangs. As someone said '' the reality can be easily hacked " through language. And it can be restored/reinvented through language.
Where we need to go back to is not to my russsianness or your punjabiness or someone irishness,.... but to our collective shared humanness, which is rooted in nature. Nature is not mute, in fact it's the only available true statement. That's what preliterate cultures understood. People used to say : plants talk to us ! Can we hear nature's voice again ?
Maybe the first downloaded template we need to part with is the idea that we are two with Nature.
natasha nikulina 50+
Maybe you'll be interested in what D. Bohm suggested as a new/old way of human communication, a dialogue... how to think the thought together, instead of exchanging opinions or , god forbid, debating :) I think , it's something 'real' that should be practiced, at least, it's worth while trying.
Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI66ZglzcO0&feature=related
Edited
Please, pay attention to the 16.15 mark
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
Re :"... we talk about whole as a thread "
Yes, but let's view it as a field, as a flux, an individual unfolds from the whole of humanity, his/her thread from Past to Future is not possible without the whole, without all complexity of interactions, history ,cause/affect feedback ...etc.
Humanity/ a human unfolds from the Nature. Here the analogy with wave/particle duality may be helpful. A particle, behaving like a separate particle never leaves the domain of the wave where it is embedded ; they are entangled they are One forever. Maybe this is the lost piece of information that QM findings reveal. No matter how far we've gone from Nature, we are Nature. As someone aptly put : we are at war with ourselves and we are winning . We may say ' loosing ' and it will make no difference , it's what the Whole is about.
" Oneness of this thread is critical- distance from it will make us two or even unaware of the connection "
Yes, and here is the idea of biblical ' fall' reemerges. We fall apart from God/ Whole/ Nature... what have you, and it's bad/wrong, but if we didn't we would never understand our oneness rationally.
So what is the 'fall' ?
The opportunity to rise through rational comprehension, only humans are capable of .
What is the distance ?
The possibility of return, come back with experience.
What is right/wrong here ? Who is to judge ? :)
natasha nikulina 50+
Re :It seemsWilliam Blake's quote is more reflective on becoming humble
Maybe, William Blake is sooo... multi layered! For me it sounds like a poetic version of a holographic principle.
Thanks for your interpretation!
Being humble is a necessary precondition to any ' standing under' People quite often erroneously confuse humility with humiliation. Actually, it's entirely the opposite ; truth makes you humble and lifts you up. In this motion 'up' remains less and less separate ' you' to be proud of. :)
Casey Christofaris 10+
Charan Singh
Casey Christofaris 10+
I think its the lens that is blocking you from seeing truth
Charan Singh
Please check 13:13 onwards of this talk by David Christian, so we have a common lens - and why some one should be hooked to language ? No , Casey, I m not a language professional just fascinated , passionate about it as a way to finding meaning !! Before the Buzz words of Science or Relgion set bias / barriers in search of Meaning !! The One and Only
Casey Christofaris 10+
natasha nikulina 50+
Coming back to your topic, how idea and form are not distinct, as i suggested. It's pretty simple: the idea/dream of flight creates the airplane. In this case what human mind does is making lemons from lemonade, the Nature is busy with the reverse : nothing lasts. But nothing lost either and an airplane shapes human mind differently, it is not the same as before, the very fabric of Time has changed , the time is speeding up. Let alone the Internet...here is the Marshal McLuhan's idea is in action : the media is the message. Iow. everything is a flux. vexed chicken egg question.
What i am trying to say is : Reality is illusion of MIND , and i don't mean human mind only, Human mind is the major player in creating virtual reality we inhabit and it is done through language, by language i mean any kind of expression. Human mind , whatever it is , is not prior to reality. There is no causality here ; it's concrescence, they grow together. But MIND is beyond language and casts the shadow over human mind.
What is IT ? Have no idea ! A Mystery.
edited
Please, keep in mind, i am modeling my understanding of ' everything ' , being perfectly aware that
i don't know :)
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
That's the point ! Reality is MIND's creation, it is not the Holy Other, it's all that is/were collectively. We don't remember that we have always been and have always participated in creation and after being separated again re-discover our own creation. As you said ( if i understand you right ) Amnesia is an interval to push the creation forward. What connects all phases ? There is no Past, everything that was is here and now and everything that most likely shall be is here too. Or let's say : we know where the road goes , but we don't know how the scinery will look like.
We agree that we are One , but don't take it as a basic premise in modeling our understanding how this world/reality works.
Casey Christofaris 10+
Casey Christofaris 10+
Casey Christofaris 10+
When also realizing that we are one
Charan Singh
Charan Singh
Casey Christofaris 10+
natasha nikulina 50+
The number of patterns is infinite, that's what William Blake's " to see infinity in the grain of sand ..." is about.
natasha nikulina 50+
I think, the problem is verbalisation, it's hard to talk about unspeakable :)
natasha nikulina 50+
I'd like to quote you, but don't remember exactly how you put it, something like :
i don't have all answers, we do.
Actually, we don't have either, but more versions more coherence, i guess.
Charan Singh
U r right likely "hard to talk about unspeakable " or what connects the unspeakable with speakable ;)
reine des violettes
natasha nikulina 50+
Thanks for asking ! :)
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
We don't want to be lost in ego, but on the other hand if we completely express the Dao, we have no sense of self.
The ideal seems to be a paradoxical state where what we have is Dao, but we perceive it as ego.
Something like this :)
natasha nikulina 50+
Does it mean that English is not your first language ?
If you don't mind me asking :)
Philip Cogswell
Charan Singh
Dan F 50+
Consider this challenge of opposites regarding the perception of a physical item. Is the mirror image of something the opposite of the original item? Obviously not, but...sorta?
Charan Singh
Dan F 50+
I'm on my way skiing, so I will try to digest your comments later. I may need a glass of fine wine. You are cerebral - indeed!! So I presume you are not too concerned about supercomputers taking over at the helm? If so, I'm with you.
Did you open this can of worms on purpose?
Casey Christofaris 10+
Dan F 50+
Is the opposite of an item, its reflection/shadow? I'd rather argue that it is not. Admittedly, the configuration of the mirror image is reversed/opposite, so I will grant you that much. Is it also reasonable to view the opposite of an item as gone or dispersed? Or perhaps in the form of energy as opposed to being in a physical state, matter vs antimatter?
Incidentally organic chemistry has identified a number of modules which are composed of the same atoms and are configured as a mirror reflection of one another. A right and left handed type. So perhaps that is getting close to one complex item being the opposite from its "mate" in a true physical sense.
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
But ' Idea VS matter ' is actually the flaw of perception ; they are not distinct.
So, i have no idea ! :)
Orlando Hawkins 20+
I also agree with you if you say they are not distinct but I view this is in the physiological sense (if we relate it to the brain). Idea's would be a subjective mental process while its physical characteristics would be mechanistic.
that's what I would say
natasha nikulina 50+
My reasoning is simpler than yours, i guess :)
Nobody knows what matter is. With QM matter ceased to be definable and exists only in relationship with everything else ... I don't know how mind creates matter , but a particle shows the properties of a particle when it is observed. Somehow 'mind' ' the observer' is necessary for reality to undergo the formality of existence . In a sense, the reality IS what we think it is.
Idea and matter are made from the same universal 'stuff'. The reality is the construct of thoughts/ideas.
that's what i would say :)
Ed Schulte 50+
Eckhart Tolle
Hi nn !!!
Charan Singh
natasha nikulina 50+
"The World is the Externalized HUman mind"
Sure !
I see what alarms you. Saying Mind i don't mean Human mind only. We emerge out of Nature , human is connected to the roots, we consolidate emergent properties and somehow bring them to a focus of self reflection. But Human mind is quite recent, the world/reality/matter is created by Mind/Spirit or whatever name.
The Svetasvatara Upanisad says:
kesagra-sata-bhagasya
satamsah sadrsatmakah
jivah suksma-svarupo 'yam
sankhyatito hi cit-kanah
‘If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts, that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kana, particles of spirit, not matter.'
Spirit is not allowed into the cannon of science, but how is it different from field ( it is not seen, but always present , it's ubiquitous) non locality , quantum potential ?
So, is there any clear cut between matter and spirit/mind ? Nobody knows what matter is made of . How particles get their masses ?
natasha nikulina 50+
' If tree falls in the wood and nobody sees it , does it happen ?"
I think, HUman mind is overstressed here . Human world is Externalized HUman mind. What about the creature that has never seen and has never been seen by a human ( hope there are such :) ) ?
As I stand it under, Mind is like a computer that runs , i don't know how many hundreds of thousand of operating systems at once and this Mind creates the world/reality/matter. Human operating system supports a lot of weird things, universe expansion... f.e. bee's/eagle's /shark's .. mind most likely doesn't We have a very vague idea what world they inhabit. But we share by creating our common reality collectively. A flower is conscious where the sun is and it also contributes to the reality, by its flower's perception of sun. Everything everywhere is doing the same thing infinitely. Mandelbrot set visualises it.
Does it make sense ? :)
Dan F 50+
Charan Singh
Dan F 50+
Is the concept of opposites only useful to the extent that is essential in computing the elastic nature of what a given term connotes about being human?
Maybe it's a good thing language has its limitations, otherwise this struggle would be considerably less fun.
Charan Singh
Ed Schulte 50+
But here is a good example of a "Non-idea" which showed up in the press ...
a scarry idea !!!
http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2013/03/01/n-honeybooboo-goes-global.cnnmoney
natasha nikulina 50+
Sedated by the prescripted daily television fix, they/we are lost to all but the act of consuming.
In fact , the scarier the better ! :)
Hi, Ed !
Dorian Knus
Charan Singh
reine des violettes
When one wants to understand and define something more deeply, it can be a great help to look at its opposite to do so. For example, If I want to understand the essence of Non-violence better, I can examine what extreme Violence really is.
What insight or understanding would one hope to gain by looking to the opposite of 'idea or concept'?
Is there an opposite to a pair of opposites?
If there is, what language could, or perhaps should, be chosen to describe it ?
Given its existence, does the act of perceiving it (and therefore conceiving it) alter its nature? How then would one define or observe this presence in what one might call its pure state ? (that is, if one has decided there is purpose to this).
Charan Singh
there is an opposite to a pair of opposites. It is being discussed in another thread linked below
http://www.ted.com/conversations/16464/after_learning_a_language_why.html
Pure state - some evolving thoughts : just 5 minutes before I was sleeping and phone bell rang - the sound from the external world - that has a pair of opposites ,triggers stimuli to change my state - My sleep state is opposite to this awake state of external world. How well one knows about the sleep state other than what is available as a knowledge sources from the external world / What other tells one about that state. Interestingly, the pure state very well knows about both Awake and Sleep yet relies on knowledge available through language as a means - this knowledge seeking in the pair of opposites is what Einstein in the linked video by Dan likely terms as Servant master or what Sleep is / black dense energy with inability to penetrate into though connectors ( as your referenced -scraps of informations) are available that Can connect with Pure State. These are as you termed Presence that connects with Pure state - difficult to connect with - thus as a routine, status quo one remains in the domain of opposites at first level and doesn't. Seek the Opposite of this pair of opposites.
reine des violettes
I tend towards the view that language is only the translation of communication, not the communication or conceptualisation itself.
I have also done some study into how newly born babies communicate.
I think one's relationship to 'the domain of opposites' changes at different points in one's life. I am glad to say it is a surprising blessing, as I become much older, that this domain recedes.
Charan Singh
carolyn mcauley 10+
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
However, words have meaning in context. It is not necessary that each will have an opposite.
Charan Singh
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
There had been long tradition of dualism in scholastic thoughts but longer (but not so much remembered) tradition of continua where nothing is 'opposite' to any other rather two necessary extremes of the same continuum. Interestingly, laughter and cry involves almost same and identical muscles in human faces.
'Idea' to me is a mental construction of a possibility in as much as it is different from a fantasy and when such a possibility becomes an event, it becomes a fact and not an idea anymore. That is why I think Fact is closest binary pair of Idea in the sense of incompatibility. I also feel the conclusion a bit contrived.
Charan Singh
Charan Singh
carolyn mcauley 10+
Charan Singh
Colleen Steen 500+
Idea:
"a transcendent entity that is a real pattern of which existing things are imperfect representations; a standard of perfection; a plan for action; replica of a pattern; an image recalled by memory; an indefinite or unformed conception; an entity (as thought, concept, sensation, or image) actually or potentially present to consciousness; a formulated thought or opinion; whatever is known or supposed about something; the central meaning or chief end of a particular action or situation; an image in mind; etc. etc. etc."
Since the meaning of the word "idea" is so broad, I agree with the dictionary....the opposite is idealess:>)
Charan Singh
Don Wesley 50+
who need more information, I suggest
RSA Animate - The Divided Brain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=dFs9WO2B8uI&feature=endscreen
Uploaded on Oct 21, 2011
In this new RSA Animate, renowned psychiatrist and writer Iain McGilchrist explains how our 'divided brain' has profoundly altered human behaviour, culture and society.
Charan Singh
Abdelhakim DAHMANI
Scott Armstrong 50+
the opposite is destruction.
if you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out/in
Charan Singh
Gail . 50+
Charan Singh
Don Wesley 50+
"14 hours and 45 comments and nobody knows all about emotions"
The language of love!
EQ and Not IQ
What an amazing discovery.
The answer is the opposite of love which is apathy.
Don
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Don Wesley 50+
This state of mind should be known by everyone.
Because its dangerous.
I have seen it before; too many times.
Its called "apathy"
Here is a medical definition I looked for all
"A review article by Robert van Reekum, MD, et al. from the University of Toronto in the Journal of Neuropsychiatry (2005) claimed that "depression and apathy were a package deal" in some populations which may help illustrate what people mean when they say that "The opposite of love is not hate, it is apathy."
Also
"Apathy (also called impassivity or perfunctoriness) is a state of indifference, or the suppression of emotions such as concern, excitement, motivation and passion."
Don
P.S. Its scary to see; that so few know.
reine des violettes
Colleen Steen 500+
LOL:>)