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What is the opposite of "Idea " ?

Concept / idea - what could be the most closest opposite of it ?

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    Mar 3 2013: Ignorance
    • Mar 3 2013: Isn't ignorance a concept / idea byitself?
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        Mar 3 2013: To me it is being oblivious to the subject.
        • Mar 3 2013: Does it mean that there is neither an external or internal stimuli to create awareness that is termed as an idea?
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        Mar 3 2013: An idea has to in reference to something.

        The opposite of being in reference to something is not being in reference to something.
        • Mar 3 2013: so no information? if so, being inside a black hole? except that apparently according to Stephen Hawking there are scraps of information escaping... so perhaps these are the 'opposites of ideas'!
          well, maybe!
        • Mar 3 2013: What Stephen terms as " Scraps..." to explore " black hole" at Macro levels - Einstein it seems at micro level terms these as " Intuitive Gifts" - your right, these are the closest opposites
  • Mar 7 2013: Charan, hi again ! :)
    Coming back to your topic, how idea and form are not distinct, as i suggested. It's pretty simple: the idea/dream of flight creates the airplane. In this case what human mind does is making lemons from lemonade, the Nature is busy with the reverse : nothing lasts. But nothing lost either and an airplane shapes human mind differently, it is not the same as before, the very fabric of Time has changed , the time is speeding up. Let alone the Internet...here is the Marshal McLuhan's idea is in action : the media is the message. Iow. everything is a flux. vexed chicken egg question.
    What i am trying to say is : Reality is illusion of MIND , and i don't mean human mind only, Human mind is the major player in creating virtual reality we inhabit and it is done through language, by language i mean any kind of expression. Human mind , whatever it is , is not prior to reality. There is no causality here ; it's concrescence, they grow together. But MIND is beyond language and casts the shadow over human mind.
    What is IT ? Have no idea ! A Mystery.

    edited
    Please, keep in mind, i am modeling my understanding of ' everything ' , being perfectly aware that
    i don't know :)
    • Mar 7 2013: nn- thanks for these tips on further exploring your questions, esp reference of McLuhen - Though it seems, 'Ape_Me_Un' ( As per my evolving understanding ;) ) " Reality is illusion of MIND" seems incorrect. There should be something that connects all phases "I" undergo as consciousness/ awareness shuttling between memory /mind ... wait till we collectively find it ;) before and after learning a language - and simple enough at the ground level not complicated at all !! not virtual
      • Mar 7 2013: " There should be something that connects all phases "I" undergo as consciousness/ awareness shuttling between memory /mind ... wait till we collectively find it ;) "

        That's the point ! Reality is MIND's creation, it is not the Holy Other, it's all that is/were collectively. We don't remember that we have always been and have always participated in creation and after being separated again re-discover our own creation. As you said ( if i understand you right ) Amnesia is an interval to push the creation forward. What connects all phases ? There is no Past, everything that was is here and now and everything that most likely shall be is here too. Or let's say : we know where the road goes , but we don't know how the scinery will look like.
        We agree that we are One , but don't take it as a basic premise in modeling our understanding how this world/reality works.
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          Mar 7 2013: I am still not sure why Charan is trying to find this underlying connection when the connection is literally everything
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          Mar 8 2013: Don't we ask questions to get answers
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          Mar 8 2013: I guess I would need to know why he is so pressed to find this 1 universal common denominator.

          When also realizing that we are one
        • Mar 8 2013: #casey - It seems it is for the reason of objectivity - we are one everyone says and I agree , however, it seems a general statement - are we one ? does language /sound /voice /vision connects us - If something is not measurable we need to work together to develop /find that. On a positive note if the connection is found - more compassion, fellowship, collaboration will flow amongst us.It seems it is an idea of working together to find an answer to a question for which the knowledge is spread all around - amongst us. Currently - it seems a slogan only , that we are all connected, we are one - and so on. Finding Something more solid would be helpful
        • Mar 8 2013: @Casey - "1 universal common denominator" - Is not an Idea !! but opposite of idea that needs to be found with knowledgeable, wise men around :such as TED, Or in communities or like minded friends, fellow seekers of Truth, - that will connect Plato's abstract with the form . That will likely help humanity understand FORM IS NOT AN ILLUSION /DREAM/UNREAL either -In this world of ideas/ concept there are several challenges - 1) everything is through language - even considering "we are one " is an idea, unless connected through that thread - 1 universal common denominator" that connects the core with the idea !! As idea it may have a beginning, sustenance for some time then regeneration/recycle, When the Common Connector is identified barriers imposed by anguage will not stop one in cycles of idea 2) Can one experience a World without words / written -verbal - non verbal ( considering non verbal - visual as codes of a language ) ? Yet language is invented by those human like us who knew the connection and competently laid the maps for connection through language - thus the language in a broader sense a mean to connect all as well. FINALLY on a back of a IC electronic chip circuit - one can see the connection/ joins Without that can those electronic parts talk to each other and manifest ? Thats how important it seems this common connector is....
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        Mar 7 2013: it a pattern ....which is another way of saying .....everything
        • Mar 7 2013: Understanding is the apperception of pattern as such.
          The number of patterns is infinite, that's what William Blake's " to see infinity in the grain of sand ..." is about.
        • Mar 8 2013: Is it possible to ask the question if you don't have the answer ?
          I think, the problem is verbalisation, it's hard to talk about unspeakable :)
        • Mar 8 2013: Don't we ask questions to get answers

          I'd like to quote you, but don't remember exactly how you put it, something like :
          i don't have all answers, we do.
          Actually, we don't have either, but more versions more coherence, i guess.
        • Mar 8 2013: @Natasha - It seemsWilliam Blake's quote is more reflective on becoming humble , like an Ant / like a Sand/like a grain to - losing one's false Id , as your often referenced

          U r right likely "hard to talk about unspeakable " or what connects the unspeakable with speakable ;)
    • Mar 7 2013: What is the opposite to 'illusion' ?
      • Mar 7 2013: Consciousness. It can be described as "jumping over your shadow" or braking the code, something like this. i guess. But i don't think it's opposite to illusion. Consciousness is where all opposites are reconciled.
        Thanks for asking ! :)
      • Mar 7 2013: @Reine - When "I" loose "Eye" ( the second I in the illusion) on anything, that seems like - what is Illusion !! so opposite possibly be something with no distraction - Clear Vision and Firm ;) - from an adopted son of -English as Mother tongue. @ nn - possibly what nn might approve me saying - where i (small i) reconciles with I ( large I) - ;)
        • Mar 7 2013: Maybe this is the same dichotomous tension that haunts individual in his/her relationship to Dao.
          We don't want to be lost in ego, but on the other hand if we completely express the Dao, we have no sense of self.
          The ideal seems to be a paradoxical state where what we have is Dao, but we perceive it as ego.
          Something like this :)
        • Mar 8 2013: Re : from an adopted son of -English as Mother tongue.

          Does it mean that English is not your first language ?
          If you don't mind me asking :)
  • Mar 7 2013: "opposite" gets a good looking at as I mull this one over, I mean when an idea germinates it may in fact have intuitive roots alone or perhaps a dimensional leak in theory at least. So opposite has two meanings without even close scrutiny. If an environment in part elicits the idea can it have one type or another at inception add the defining construct. In so much as the mathematical relative other can result in being perceived as Dan (?) put it, frozen can this not be a halting of process and so be neutral as opposed to opposite? or depends on the definition again maybe.
    • Mar 7 2013: Thanks Philip - Please correct me if I have incorrectly understood you and Dan F; here is what I mean: let us a say I am an Idea with an awareness and help from language I have a name and a life cycle as water - I am aware of myself as water- when heated I turn into steam, when cold I turn into Ice !! or get frozen !! So as long as I m conscious of my entity in all the three phases of being a solid, liquid or gad - I remain in the cycle without opposites in the True sense because these are my stages. So first - Am I aware of being in all stages if Yes !! then what is the opposite of "I" that has acquired a name of idea with the help of language ? Does this opposite exsist? what connects "I" as an Idea with what has the life cycles such as - birth /death - solid, liquid , gas, or origin as an Idea, promotion and/or trashed. Hope this makes some sense !!
  • Dan F 50+

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    Mar 6 2013: Is it possible the concept and application of opposites to a given word is only a helpful dimension to better understanding what contributes to our human capacity to perceive.

    Consider this challenge of opposites regarding the perception of a physical item. Is the mirror image of something the opposite of the original item? Obviously not, but...sorta?
    • Mar 7 2013: Here is a likely example - the word is: Idea/s (please allow to play with vowel sounds and little bit of phonetic wresting for another perspective / meaning to emerge ) so Idea can be re-written as " I " + "the" + "Ae/S" So from a new perspective Idea means : "something about Me/"I" " + "Something about the - people" + "Some trash Aes/Ash" likely implications - not everything about Me/I is acceptable to people, not everything about people may be acceptable to Me/I thus there is a Trash of Idea/s !! This may be taken as is Opposite in Opposites from my perspective - people and (tra)Ash(ed - Ideas) are opposites so are these dimensions from other angles as well . Another implication of this is it brings a different meaning to the word "Idea" not in dictionary - not in literature !! prevailing perspectives - however, can there be an idea without Me/I ? or without people? or can all ideas be making sense to fulfillment thus can there be no trash? Would you consider this the fun of language in understanding better " what contributes to our human capacity to perceive" ;)
      • Mar 7 2013: The related talk to your challenge is, "A brain in a supercomputer." So admittedly I am focusing on the difficulties of mimicking the human brain via a supercomputer's capacity to preform to the level of intelligent elasticity we enjoy as humans in free thought.

        I'm on my way skiing, so I will try to digest your comments later. I may need a glass of fine wine. You are cerebral - indeed!! So I presume you are not too concerned about supercomputers taking over at the helm? If so, I'm with you.

        Did you open this can of worms on purpose?
      • Mar 8 2013: Hi Casey,

        Is the opposite of an item, its reflection/shadow? I'd rather argue that it is not. Admittedly, the configuration of the mirror image is reversed/opposite, so I will grant you that much. Is it also reasonable to view the opposite of an item as gone or dispersed? Or perhaps in the form of energy as opposed to being in a physical state, matter vs antimatter?

        Incidentally organic chemistry has identified a number of modules which are composed of the same atoms and are configured as a mirror reflection of one another. A right and left handed type. So perhaps that is getting close to one complex item being the opposite from its "mate" in a true physical sense.
        • Mar 8 2013: Arrived at the similar conclusion as above, unlike Chemists or Physicists who might use a electronic microscope to find ( loving atoms ) "mate in true physical sense", by playing with grapheme !! physically recognizable, manifested sounds !! Exploring with-in Why - ( Vine - Why In ) definitely helps "can of worms on purpose? " It seems these worms are generated through grapheme - that I mate with so everything under controll;)
  • Mar 5 2013: Matter...form.
    But ' Idea VS matter ' is actually the flaw of perception ; they are not distinct.
    So, i have no idea ! :)
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      Mar 5 2013: I do not think you are too far off Natasha..I would say matter and form (if you take the approach of metaphysics and naturalism)..

      I also agree with you if you say they are not distinct but I view this is in the physiological sense (if we relate it to the brain). Idea's would be a subjective mental process while its physical characteristics would be mechanistic.

      that's what I would say
      • Mar 5 2013: Hi, Orlando !
        My reasoning is simpler than yours, i guess :)
        Nobody knows what matter is. With QM matter ceased to be definable and exists only in relationship with everything else ... I don't know how mind creates matter , but a particle shows the properties of a particle when it is observed. Somehow 'mind' ' the observer' is necessary for reality to undergo the formality of existence . In a sense, the reality IS what we think it is.
        Idea and matter are made from the same universal 'stuff'. The reality is the construct of thoughts/ideas.

        that's what i would say :)
        • Mar 6 2013: "The World is the Externalized HUman mind"

          Eckhart Tolle

          Hi nn !!!
    • Mar 6 2013: nn :)seems a billion dollar challenge question 1) "how mind creates matter"- 2) "' Idea VS matter ' is actually the flaw of perception ; they are not distinct." I was thinking similar to what Ed references ""The World is the Externalized HUman mind"" still thinking !! bear delay ...for some more time please
      • Mar 7 2013: Hi, Charan !
        "The World is the Externalized HUman mind"
        Sure !
        I see what alarms you. Saying Mind i don't mean Human mind only. We emerge out of Nature , human is connected to the roots, we consolidate emergent properties and somehow bring them to a focus of self reflection. But Human mind is quite recent, the world/reality/matter is created by Mind/Spirit or whatever name.
        The Svetasvatara Upanisad says:
        kesagra-sata-bhagasya
        satamsah sadrsatmakah
        jivah suksma-svarupo 'yam
        sankhyatito hi cit-kanah
        ‘If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts, that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kana, particles of spirit, not matter.'
        Spirit is not allowed into the cannon of science, but how is it different from field ( it is not seen, but always present , it's ubiquitous) non locality , quantum potential ?
        So, is there any clear cut between matter and spirit/mind ? Nobody knows what matter is made of . How particles get their masses ?
      • Mar 7 2013: Ed !
        ' If tree falls in the wood and nobody sees it , does it happen ?"
        I think, HUman mind is overstressed here . Human world is Externalized HUman mind. What about the creature that has never seen and has never been seen by a human ( hope there are such :) ) ?
        As I stand it under, Mind is like a computer that runs , i don't know how many hundreds of thousand of operating systems at once and this Mind creates the world/reality/matter. Human operating system supports a lot of weird things, universe expansion... f.e. bee's/eagle's /shark's .. mind most likely doesn't We have a very vague idea what world they inhabit. But we share by creating our common reality collectively. A flower is conscious where the sun is and it also contributes to the reality, by its flower's perception of sun. Everything everywhere is doing the same thing infinitely. Mandelbrot set visualises it.
        Does it make sense ? :)
  • Dan F 50+

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    Mar 5 2013: Frozen
    • Mar 5 2013: Frozen seems similar in a way to Status quo/ routine / monotonous - with all of these in the domain of idea/ concept itself !! What seems opposite thus as "Einstein / McGilchrist - idea as " Intuitive Gift" ( Don references this in this conversation ) or as referenced by Reine " Stephen Hawking there are scraps of information escaping" Similar to Frozen Ice having splinters of Ice away escaping away from it
      • Dan F 50+

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        Mar 5 2013: An idea is a consequence, a venture, in terms of something being germinated. Being frozen (unchanged) would seem to preclude this creative process. It also may be seen as an individual inability to be receptive to notice, such as being presumptuously frozen in one's own mind from any recognition or differentiation in perception of an available "Intuitive Gift." A problem robots may have by definition. I will read the references to try to get up to speed.

        Is the concept of opposites only useful to the extent that is essential in computing the elastic nature of what a given term connotes about being human?

        Maybe it's a good thing language has its limitations, otherwise this struggle would be considerably less fun.
        • Mar 6 2013: " otherwise this struggle would be considerably less fun" interesting !! It seems though this fun through language may connect to a (d) strong insightful cord that connect (a) opposites (b) opposite of opposites (c) into the holistic both in language and beyond ;)
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    Mar 4 2013: Hollywood
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    Mar 3 2013: Fact.
    However, words have meaning in context. It is not necessary that each will have an opposite.
    • Mar 3 2013: Finding opposite seems an inbuilt function that likely fills the unfilled. It seems questioning remains till opposite fills in.
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        Mar 4 2013: True. But it can be seen like this too. 'Opposite' is itself an idea. I am not sure if you are into the lexical semantics of it, but the idea of opposite carries a sense of 'opposing' something, that is an inherent incompatibility of the binary relationship in a pair (male-female etc.). From that aspect it is difficult to find out the binary pair of 'idea' that is something which is inherently incompatible to 'idea'.
        There had been long tradition of dualism in scholastic thoughts but longer (but not so much remembered) tradition of continua where nothing is 'opposite' to any other rather two necessary extremes of the same continuum. Interestingly, laughter and cry involves almost same and identical muscles in human faces.
        'Idea' to me is a mental construction of a possibility in as much as it is different from a fantasy and when such a possibility becomes an event, it becomes a fact and not an idea anymore. That is why I think Fact is closest binary pair of Idea in the sense of incompatibility. I also feel the conclusion a bit contrived.
        • Mar 4 2013: Nicely stated "'Idea' to me is a mental construction of a possibility" though it seems facts change. As per my evolving understanding by opposite it means: Example - Most closest opposite of Birth is Death - this is a fact and a construct within the language that one learns after first year of birth. So if one takes first year into consideration as Robert has already pointed out Blank-Slate is the opposite of these pair of opposites (Birth- Death). Yet when one goes into another dimension of deeper reflection - where one can easily recall all these three phases even the opposite Blank-slate dissolves into what is Presence !! as Reine stated or as Einstein says Intuitive Mind !! in a youtube link referenced by Don. Interestingly - all these deemed opposites are in Oneness with same origin revolving - and trains of IDEAS originating all the times !! . The Challenge is to distinguish Intuitive Ideas that doesn't flourishes in the domain of opposites only ( world manifested - with learnt language) but also equally applies to other domains - brings welfare to this extent. These domains are not external to one another though knowing these all and seeing application of an idea to all seems the ultimate. Just some thoughts...
  • Mar 3 2013: Humbly !! I bow down before the knowledge , Love and wisdom shared by everyone. Thanks.
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    • Mar 3 2013: How about - day-night; life-death; one word simple opposites
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    Mar 3 2013: I think the non-idea does not exist and can not exist. because thinking (ideas), is another face of existance. great question thank you :)
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  • Mar 3 2013: this is becoming completely circular.
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      Mar 3 2013: True Reine Des Violettes! Considering the meaning of "idea", the question..."What is the opposite of "Idea " ?.....would naturally be circular. It is amuzing, and I suppose our clever facilitator knew this???
      LOL:>)
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    Mar 2 2013: Dogma
    • Mar 2 2013: Wouldn't dogma be another type of idea/ concept ?
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        Mar 2 2013: I was thinking of the definition

        "A thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action."

        Not

        "A concept or mental impression."

        .
        • Mar 3 2013: That seems close - what could be a one word for that thought , please allow me to add a word - creative along with "course of action "
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    Mar 2 2013: Lack of idea?
    • Mar 2 2013: Could thoughtless be a one word opposite to idea !! Can lack of. Ides be considered as a thought ?
    • Mar 3 2013: yes, that's what I was thinking..absence of idea. In which case an idea is a presence.

      if idea is taken in the broader context of meaning a 'a concept' (could be wordless) and so an entity of any kind, then perhaps its opposite would be true nothingness?

      and death, I feel, is possibly the most powerful idea there is, (along with birth.) It is certainly extremely important...I have thought much about this, and wondered how different absolutely everything would be if it didn't matter whether we die or not. If we were really indifferent as to whether we live or not, - not when we choose, but any old time. (I don't mean the concept of dying in a detached and accepting way..the dying still means a lot here).
      I find the idea of death being meaningless hard to conceive.
      • Mar 3 2013: " Idea is a presence " Beautifully stated Reine !! The only thing to add, it will be interesting to name it what Einstein / McGilchrist calls " Intuitive Gift" - InGi rather than just an idea as an opposite to idea because idea is circular with twin edges inside in it !! InGi seems out of binary pairs of opposites contained in Idea / concepts and Intutive gift - in itself is opposite to idea / concept - sharing to better evolve with your participation.
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    • Mar 16 2013: Sure idea and thought are related, thoughts are expressed using a language - verbal / nonverbal both ends, so would have opposites though it might be interesting to explore what is before a thought ? As a true opposite , If void meant Silence to you , then it seems that is part of thought only
  • Mar 14 2013: here is a conversation ....in modern context with modern minds trying to analyze it...of a Sage Avencenna's point ...by way of question to his students....it is what the Sufi refer to as "Turning the UNIVERSE INSIDE OUT"

    http://ec.libsyn.com/p/7/d/e/7de4e7a24ee48259/Peter_Adamson_on_Avicennas_Flying_Man.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01ce8437d4c1550fe3&c_id=5176985
    • Mar 14 2013: I was thinking about you;)
    • Mar 14 2013: It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious.:)
      Hi, Ed , thanks for the link !
    • Mar 15 2013: @Ed- some understand Avicennas_Flying_Man as a Bird ( particularly - Soul as Swan) However, after hearing this interesting dialogue what comes to mind seems that is the likely state of a child in a mother's womb - hung with head down, disabled senses - blank cognitively yet Live !! entity
      @Natasha - Interestingly this happens - more than often with me -what you called synchronicity;)
    • Mar 16 2013: Hi , ED !
      Plato described a mystic experience as a flight of ALONE to the ALONE.
      Mathematically, it's ONE without the second.
      I guess, it's what the Sufi refer to as "Turning the UNIVERSE INSIDE OUT"
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    Mar 11 2013: Charan,

    Would you be open to a new idea on what language really is?
    • Mar 11 2013: "open to a new idea on what language really is? "

      Sure !!

      Would appreciate your take on the following as well it seems following may have missed your attention. Thanks.

      http://www.ted.com/talks/david_christian_big_history.html

      Please check 13:13 onwards of this talk by David Christian, so we have a common lens - and why some one should be hooked to language ? No , Casey, I m not a language professional just fascinated , passionate about it as a way to finding meaning !! Before the Buzz words of Science or Relgion set bias / barriers in search of Meaning !! The One and Only
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        Mar 11 2013: Yeah saw the video watched it twice I understand that he is saying that what makes human so great is not language but that fact that we can pass knowledge on. But we have been doing this since the beginning of time. And since the beginning of time the gods have been passing this knowledge on

        " At all times in mans history, man makes reference to a God or gods in order to explain or bring an understanding to concepts that he,(man) did not posse. Eventually, given time, science focused on explaining the mystery of the unexplainable. As knowledge increased over time, so did understanding. What was once attributed to God is now known through science. My belief is, religion was the precursor to science. Religion tried to answer questions that man had, and when the answer was not available it was given over to the realm of God. We must have an evolutionary need to have answers, and God was the provider of those answers. I believe that man created God. We created a divine God to be the keeper of answers to mysteries we did not yet have.

        Gods have always existed because the answers to our questions have always existed, we just did not have the understanding at the time.

        God provided or became the answer without needing the understanding." Dennis Hollinger


        So what is language? What gives us the ability to communicate? It is the way the wind blows passed your vocal cords which creates sound. So does that mean all string instruments speak language? They most certainly create sound. What about sign language or body language? No sound made. Is that language? All vibrations carry information, it actually what addicts get addicted to the information. Now if god had a language or a vibration or a feeling do you think people would get addicted to it?

        But like all languages, what do you think got lost translation? It is hard to provide the answers when you do not know the questions? But here on earth we start with the answers and then ask god for the questions?
        • Mar 12 2013: It is okay !! I don't think we are on the same page . We need to discuss this first without God' role. Thanks
  • Mar 9 2013: Hi, Charan !

    Re : "On a positive note if the connection is found - more compassion, fellowship, collaboration will flow amongst us.It seems it is an idea of working together to find an answer to a question for which the knowledge is spread all around - amongst us."

    You are so right !!!
    All our thinking about oneness will be nothing more but the lazy habit of thinking if we can't find the way to implement it into our daily life. Maybe we have already found the connection but it's not that easy to "love your neighbour as thyself " We need to learn to love, i believe it's the only reason we are here.
    Thank you and have a nice day !
    • Mar 9 2013: Thanks Nn - Big Bang for us should happen everyday to evolve into a better world through best words - with golden rules implemented ;)
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        Mar 9 2013: 'big bangs" happen at about 100 times a day

        This is how objective morality should look;

        We should redefine what peace is? Because whom are you to tell me what my peace is? See if you think we practiced the Golden Rule as defined as this we could create peace.

        Its reciprocal, if party (y) want to have crazy kinky sex then he/she needs to find party (x) that also wants kinky sex and then the do on to others how they would want to be treated and have some crazy kinky sex. If party (y) want to have crazy kinky sex but party (z) does not want to then guess what you do on to others how you would want to be treated and don't have kinky sex with party (z) Because chances are there is something that party y does not want to do. (maybe party z want to kill some one) All he needs to do is find some one who is willing to die and kill them, if he cant find a party to kill, he doesn't do it. He respects the other person choices as if the are his own.

        So if 2 parties want to kill each other from what they describe as peace or the greatest glory they can do for their god let them do it. It only becomes a problem when one party does not want to kill the other. Or be killed

        "this is why we have consent forms, no consent no business"
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      Mar 13 2013: HI Natasha

      You really are a big fan of QM aren't you? What spiked your interest in QM and eastern spirituality?
      • Mar 14 2013: Hi, Orlando,
        what unites these two seemingly separate if not opposed world views is the idea of the indivisible invisible Whole.
        "you are throne and palace and king " hence the Whole. Nothing has independent existence from anything else.
        The majority of scientists and scientifically minded people tend to think, that only layman's mind can make this connection and maybe it' true, for a lot of reasons, mostly due for more holistic approach. On the other hand, some leading scientists in the field , like David Bohm and his followers do the same. So, i am in a good company here :)
        Thanks for asking !
  • Mar 8 2013: Nn- U said mind creates illusion !! Though, it seems U hit the bulls eye - clearly , firmly, no illusions ;) !! Yes, mother Englsih tongue adopted me
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      Mar 8 2013: The illusion is that the visual reality is "real" but truly it is real our atoms are real, the light is real, our cells are real.....the illusions it that the real is something that it static or tactical.
    • Mar 9 2013: In this case, mother Russian tongue adopted me ! :)
      • Mar 9 2013: Interestingly ! Is Russian your natural mother and English adopted mother tongue ?
        • Mar 10 2013: Hi, Charan !
          You see now i haven't hit the bulls eye :) I didn't quite understand what you meant by ' English mother tongue adopted me'
          I thought that you referred to infant glossolalia as natural mother tongue. Some linguists tend to think it's the case.
          A baby enjoys sounds, it produces sounds investing no meaning into them, a sound partakes no quality but it's own, like a colour for a baby. Shamans speak in tongues to sing reality into existence. Shamanic culture is a humanity's babyhood.
          In this context our natural mother tongue that adopted us is our first language after we stop entertain glossolalia.
          So, to make it clear, Russian is my natural mother tongue and the only mother tongue. My first language. English is my second language, the only second language so far but i am optimistic :)
          Is English your second language, if yes, what is the first ?.
          Thanks !
      • Mar 11 2013: ;) What I understood for several years that my mother tongue is Punjabi , has changed ;) How? I m convinced now that my mother tongue is GuRMuKhee - from which Punjabi is derived. So "what is the first ?" It is GuRMuKhee - that has its own grapheme/ phenome correspondence, thus independent in its own ;) doesnt borrow script from some other language to manifest - become visible ;) Interestingly it has a piece in it that is very clearly understandable unlike "glossolalia"/"Speak in tongue" type to connect
        to what you rightly said "humanity's babyhood. " You may agree - both threads that I started were intended to explore -with collectively knowledge /wisdom's participation -more on that piece of connection only.
        • Mar 12 2013: I would like to see more conversations like yours. I have a lot of vague ideas about the lost connection and share your belief that it is important to rekindle the connection. Maybe, we need a kind of linguistic revolution. People need to realize we're all using downloaded templates of understanding for understanding from our parents who are using templates from their parents.
          Old preliterate/pre written languages were audial languages, i am not sure about the 'visual' part.
          Our modern languages are abstract, we operate with ' means ' ( means ' are the smallest concepts of meaning ) .
          OK... you see, a lot to think about together :)
          Could you help me with a proper link on GuRMuKhee ? I've found this
          http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurmukhi
          looks not bad, but i would appreciate your recommendations.
          Thank you !
      • Mar 13 2013: "Downloaded templates!" - your linguistic revolution is right here! ;) where and when "I" the electron finds the connection in this template- the people, the world around, changes - the veil of ignorance lifted - all light , no darkness;) add another electron - bonding with one another !!! Your proposed revolution starts, right here !! - does one need anything else ? The link Nn you have found is correct , those are prevalent spellings - the transliteration GuRMuKhee as I use has more phonetic reflections than the commonly used as Gumukhi. ....will send you a link later - not handy right now ! Cheers
        • Mar 13 2013: I see you have something very big in your mind !!!!
          Re: "does one need anything else ?"
          To reprogramme the mind , each of us have between our ears, not more not less than that :) And, i think, the right place to start is to realise that what we have is MIND which we perceive through mind/language.
          I think, that language is the thin web on which our perception of the reality hangs. As someone said '' the reality can be easily hacked " through language. And it can be restored/reinvented through language.
          Where we need to go back to is not to my russsianness or your punjabiness or someone irishness,.... but to our collective shared humanness, which is rooted in nature. Nature is not mute, in fact it's the only available true statement. That's what preliterate cultures understood. People used to say : plants talk to us ! Can we hear nature's voice again ?
          Maybe the first downloaded template we need to part with is the idea that we are two with Nature.
        • Mar 13 2013: I don't mean the famous : "everything you know is wrong." Maybe it's true, but usually not everything we know is wrong, and normally we have to wisely use what we know of our current situation to navigate to the next level.
          Maybe you'll be interested in what D. Bohm suggested as a new/old way of human communication, a dialogue... how to think the thought together, instead of exchanging opinions or , god forbid, debating :) I think , it's something 'real' that should be practiced, at least, it's worth while trying.
          Here is the link:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI66ZglzcO0&feature=related

          Edited

          Please, pay attention to the 16.15 mark
      • Mar 14 2013: This conversation about the whole and the part seems very interesting . Thanks for sharing. The point to me seems is when we talk about whole as a thread, instead of two parts - individual being at the other end makes individual part as well as separate from the whole at the same time. It seems "Everything we know is right " because it is thread connection - the farther/ distanced one is positioned on this thread from the other end it looks wrong or one perceives it separated, incorrect, wrong - what actually is not wrong. Thus we are One with Nature as the other end only - Oneness of this thread is critical- distance from it will make us two or even unaware of the connection;) what do you think?
        • Mar 14 2013: Hi, Charan !
          Re :"... we talk about whole as a thread "
          Yes, but let's view it as a field, as a flux, an individual unfolds from the whole of humanity, his/her thread from Past to Future is not possible without the whole, without all complexity of interactions, history ,cause/affect feedback ...etc.
          Humanity/ a human unfolds from the Nature. Here the analogy with wave/particle duality may be helpful. A particle, behaving like a separate particle never leaves the domain of the wave where it is embedded ; they are entangled they are One forever. Maybe this is the lost piece of information that QM findings reveal. No matter how far we've gone from Nature, we are Nature. As someone aptly put : we are at war with ourselves and we are winning . We may say ' loosing ' and it will make no difference , it's what the Whole is about.
          " Oneness of this thread is critical- distance from it will make us two or even unaware of the connection "
          Yes, and here is the idea of biblical ' fall' reemerges. We fall apart from God/ Whole/ Nature... what have you, and it's bad/wrong, but if we didn't we would never understand our oneness rationally.
          So what is the 'fall' ?
          The opportunity to rise through rational comprehension, only humans are capable of .
          What is the distance ?
          The possibility of return, come back with experience.
          What is right/wrong here ? Who is to judge ? :)
  • Mar 8 2013: Hi, Charan !
    Re :It seemsWilliam Blake's quote is more reflective on becoming humble

    Maybe, William Blake is sooo... multi layered! For me it sounds like a poetic version of a holographic principle.
    Thanks for your interpretation!
    Being humble is a necessary precondition to any ' standing under' People quite often erroneously confuse humility with humiliation. Actually, it's entirely the opposite ; truth makes you humble and lifts you up. In this motion 'up' remains less and less separate ' you' to be proud of. :)
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    Mar 7 2013: matter is an outward expression of an inward process....like a place holder for thought
    • Mar 8 2013: Or is it the reverse? What one see in the external - gets noted into memory through language that makes it looks like a inward process which actually has origin in the external /outward - One's identity gets created by this external Who gives a name, a relation, a society, knowledge and keep mind working !! busy
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        Mar 8 2013: are you a language person or professional for language? Could you please give me your definition of language? Because you seem to be hooked on it.

        I think its the lens that is blocking you from seeing truth
        • Mar 9 2013: http://www.ted.com/talks/david_christian_big_history.html

          Please check 13:13 onwards of this talk by David Christian, so we have a common lens - and why some one should be hooked to language ? No , Casey, I m not a language professional just fascinated , passionate about it as a way to finding meaning !! Before the Buzz words of Science or Relgion set bias / barriers in search of Meaning !! The One and Only
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        Mar 8 2013: well it could be the reverse because truly it does not exist outside of our mind ...its only assumed to just like science
  • Mar 4 2013: Hi ty for the invite but I am staying with the "Language"

    But here is a good example of a "Non-idea" which showed up in the press ...

    a scarry idea !!!

    http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2013/03/01/n-honeybooboo-goes-global.cnnmoney
    • Mar 5 2013: It's even scarier !
      Sedated by the prescripted daily television fix, they/we are lost to all but the act of consuming.
      In fact , the scarier the better ! :)
      Hi, Ed !
  • Mar 3 2013: further questions come to mind...

    When one wants to understand and define something more deeply, it can be a great help to look at its opposite to do so. For example, If I want to understand the essence of Non-violence better, I can examine what extreme Violence really is.
    What insight or understanding would one hope to gain by looking to the opposite of 'idea or concept'?

    Is there an opposite to a pair of opposites?

    If there is, what language could, or perhaps should, be chosen to describe it ?

    Given its existence, does the act of perceiving it (and therefore conceiving it) alter its nature? How then would one define or observe this presence in what one might call its pure state ? (that is, if one has decided there is purpose to this).
    • Mar 4 2013: It seems the answer is Yes -

      there is an opposite to a pair of opposites. It is being discussed in another thread linked below

      http://www.ted.com/conversations/16464/after_learning_a_language_why.html

      Pure state - some evolving thoughts : just 5 minutes before I was sleeping and phone bell rang - the sound from the external world - that has a pair of opposites ,triggers stimuli to change my state - My sleep state is opposite to this awake state of external world. How well one knows about the sleep state other than what is available as a knowledge sources from the external world / What other tells one about that state. Interestingly, the pure state very well knows about both Awake and Sleep yet relies on knowledge available through language as a means - this knowledge seeking in the pair of opposites is what Einstein in the linked video by Dan likely terms as Servant master or what Sleep is / black dense energy with inability to penetrate into though connectors ( as your referenced -scraps of informations) are available that Can connect with Pure State. These are as you termed Presence that connects with Pure state - difficult to connect with - thus as a routine, status quo one remains in the domain of opposites at first level and doesn't. Seek the Opposite of this pair of opposites.
      • Mar 4 2013: yes, Thankyou for the thread.

        I tend towards the view that language is only the translation of communication, not the communication or conceptualisation itself.

        I have also done some study into how newly born babies communicate.

        I think one's relationship to 'the domain of opposites' changes at different points in one's life. I am glad to say it is a surprising blessing, as I become much older, that this domain recedes.
        • Mar 4 2013: Thanks for sharing !! "language is only the translation of communication" great -to learn about "domain recedes"
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    Mar 3 2013: According to the dictionary, the opposite of idea, is " idealess".

    Idea:
    "a transcendent entity that is a real pattern of which existing things are imperfect representations; a standard of perfection; a plan for action; replica of a pattern; an image recalled by memory; an indefinite or unformed conception; an entity (as thought, concept, sensation, or image) actually or potentially present to consciousness; a formulated thought or opinion; whatever is known or supposed about something; the central meaning or chief end of a particular action or situation; an image in mind; etc. etc. etc."

    Since the meaning of the word "idea" is so broad, I agree with the dictionary....the opposite is idealess:>)
    • Mar 3 2013: From Plato - Kant- Hegel, from one knowledge source/ dictionary to another - to satisfy questioning mind with trains- tracks of thoughts , finding an opposite seems a solution to likely measure / make sure one is not in circle/ researching / chasing- what shouldnot be. Idealess/ thoughtless/ blank-slate seems the opposites within that circle itself as a assumed opposite as you and Reine are rightly suggesting.
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    • Mar 3 2013: Thanks for sharing the YouTube . That is exactly what this question is about ? Being associted with Ted - " Ideas worth spreading" - how well can we distinguish between idea/s and its closest opposite what Einstein calls " Intutive Gift"/ McGilchrist advises /supports that !! How can we put this measurement in place will be another interesting direction worth pursuing - whether an idea meets both dimensions - Intutive and Ratioanl and is actually not just an idea .Unlike an idea, it seems - " Intutive gift " arises not from sensation as Carolyn, rightly pointed out earlier but from the Core/ love ( Don) /Awesome Creativity ( Scott) / another face of existence (Dashmani)