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peter lindsay

Physics Teacher,

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Is there an alternative to money?

I read many entries on this site that tell me about the evils of money and how rampant capitalism is destroying the world. SO! I'm a highschool science teacher. I teach on average100 students per day for 1 or 2 hours each. How can I be compensated for my service in a way that doesn't involve some sort of promissory note?

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    Mar 2 2013: You have a "For Value Received" contract with your employer. The two of you have agreed to exchange your teaching skills for their Value Representations, commonly called "dollars". You are asking how to modify your contract to replace, or eliminate the Value Representations? Let's see, what might they give you instead of money?. . . something of intrinsic value equal to the intrinsic value of your skills? You don't want fiat money. You don't want promissory (Receipt) money. You don't want commodity money, and you don't want fractional money. Drawing from the history of commerce there remains only one medium of exchange . . . barter.
  • Mar 4 2013: Technocracy Inc came up with a system back in the 1930's based on energy accounting.
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    Mar 4 2013: Only in Star Trek

    There are more than a hundred million people just in China that do not use money. But they live like in the year 1901...
    Your choice.
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    Mar 4 2013: What resources do you have available and how interested are the students to work with you?
  • Mar 2 2013: If there is, we haven´t found it. The problem is not the system; it is the human beings in the system. No system on earth, no matter how good, would work well if it is not properly run.
    THere are various goods and services; and money is so far the best mode of exchange.
  • Mar 1 2013: I don't think we need an alternative, money serves a function and it serves it very well.
    The evils spoken of don't come down to money, it comes down to people, whether money is involved or not inequality's will arise. There are 7 billion people on earth it would be naive to think that no one even if money wasn't present would turn out better than the rest?

    Small scale alternatives are very possible but once you scale up to the huge amount of transactions happening between not only capitalist country's but all other types of economy's and then again to the amount of transactions happening between individual people in any given city at any given time replacing something as simple and efficient as money seems unwise...

    Now if what we are talking about is how people use a redistribute this wealth is a completely different question, but as I said if we are simply talking about money coins and bills without feeling or reason as a tool they are invaluable to society and carry no inherent evil in and of themselves.
  • Mar 1 2013: When we live Consciously, money will fall away..........we are a ways away from that :-)
  • Mar 1 2013: As long as we are human we will be using money. May we forever be self-conscious.
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    Feb 28 2013: I have a good news for all those who blame money for all the evils of this world. Due to certain processes which you will never be able to grasp, you will soon dump all your dollars, euros and yens :)
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    Feb 28 2013: If there were the necessary shift in the cultural paradigm, the idea of money wouldn't even be part of your thinking - any more than jurgulats are today. The word "money" would be nothing more than a series of syllables without meaning. The concept of money as a medium of exchange just wouldn't exist.

    Thought experiment: You & 100 people are stranded on a tropical island and people don't know ur ship ran aground, AND (because this happened 400 years ago), no one will find you. The captain & his crew all died trying to save you & this now-unsailable ship). There is no power hierarchy in place.

    Your 1st order of business is to find fresh water, temporary shelter, fire, and food to sustain you until you find the best place for a clearing to establish a permanent settlement. Each contributes time, talent, and expertise in the name of common survival. When the absolute essentials are taken care of, there is a shift in the cultural mentality. There is a lot of free time. What will you do with it? Sit and die of boredom?

    No, you will pursue your interests and strengthen your talents. You will share them with the group. If you don't want to share them with the group until a currency is agreed upon and monetary policy established, you will be an outcast. The group will not share w/ you until you demonstrate that you want to be part of the group. Groups can do a lot more than singles - and in less time.

    If you think your talent is building homes, but you aren't good at it, no one will want your home. You'll figure out that you have much to learn or that's not 1 of your talents. In the same way, if you are a physics teacher but no student wants to learn from you, you had best find another talent to share.

    No power hierarchy. No government telling kids that they must go to you to learn even if you are not the best teacher. (hypothetically).'

    Talent, skill & creativity become the currency of the day, along with the ability to get along with others.
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      Feb 28 2013: I agree that a pure communist leaderless. moneyless society is possible but they only seem to work upto the point where population is big enough to allow the formation of "tribes" within the group. You can't maintain a relationship with everybody once you get to 20000pop, so tribes form and you need a way of trading services between tribes.
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        Mar 1 2013: I perceive a vast difference between "tribes" and "communities". But trading services is just another form of money, so I think that the very idea of trading this for that is part of the fundamental flaw in our social system. I prefer the gift economy that comes with RATIONAL anarchy.

        I'm not sure if by pure communism you mean Marxism - that values people above all. Remember that Marx himself said that if Communism is Marxism, then he is not a Marxist.

        RATIONAL anarchy has almost nothing in common with anarchy. Anarchy is a fear-based system.
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          Mar 4 2013: Pure communism like Australian aboriginals. They don't traditionally have a concept of personal property. Everything is about the people or the land. When they refer to country it means the area of land that they are responsible for looking after not the land they own.
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          Mar 4 2013: If Rational Anarchy has nothing in common with Anarchy would it not be a good idea to label it something which does not contain the word "anarchy"?
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        Mar 4 2013: Ed, If I could think of another word that would describe it, I would use it. But as no word currently exists, if I were to invent one, would you know what it means?

        Anarchy is chaos. A group of people who are controlled by their emotions, rather than own them, might well form a government that manipulates us through those emotions - as our government and religions do.

        Rational anarchy is logical, coherent, rational thought forming the basis for a ground-up (local up) government (with very few powers). It depends on the individual to be able to think rationally, thus to treat others and self well. It denies Big Brother ownership of the lives of individuals, and allows all to experience the consequences of their choices.

        The word "Libertarian" comes closest, but I know of Libertarians who do not know the difference between a thought and an emotion, so to use the word would misrepresent what I am saying.
  • Feb 28 2013: Let's see.
    We have factories, companies, institutions, schools, distribution points and centers, transport methods, etc..
    We are automating more and more things. Even some delicate, complex medical operations are done by automation, i.e. robots basically, and with the use of computers.
    We will continue to automate more and more. Technology, an extension of we humans will always be changing, growing and being created anew, by who? Humans.
    We as a species, will also continue along our way because we wish to learn, teach, build, design, paint, draw, conceive, play sports, and on and on.
    We will not lose motivation because of no money. In fact, our motivation to do, i.e, help solve our problems, would help us because now we could solve them. Without money, we will still have them and our dreams, desires, wants and needs, so we will still do in order to take care of them, solve them, realize them or make them a reality.
    In other words, money will no longer be a barrier stopping us from solving, resolving, growing, enjoying and with more leisure and less stress, and everyone is involved.
    Things don't........"get done"..........because of money.
    Things............"don't get done"......because of money.
    So, what if our needs are free? Everyone's needs? What we all need to be safe, secure, housed, clothed, dressed, transported, fed, educated? All of those can be automated and soon will be. They are what we work for, but the real problems are not being solved because of money. If our needs are met by a very largely automated system, that isn't boring to the machine but is boring , dumbing-down and dangerous to the human, all jobs are equal, performed for a very short time (I don't know, with so many of us maybe 2-3 hours a month?)
    So, what if we kept all these things going all while automating more so that we would have a minimum of time spent actually working and more people could be trained to do the kinds of work we need?.
    Nothing costs money. Everything costs people
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      Mar 1 2013: When all is automated doesn't the power lie in those that know how to fix the automatons?
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    Feb 28 2013: .
    My answer is no!

    Money greatly makes invalid happiness, which makes greed, inequality, crimes, wars, environment destruction, .... humankind self-extinction.
    Hence, we have to eradicate the root ---- invalid happiness.


    Wrong?

    (For details, see the 1st article, points 1-3, 14, at
    https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D&id=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D%21283&sc=documents.)
  • Feb 28 2013: At this moment all I can think of is semantic gameplaying unless you want room and board or chickens Isn't that sort of like a salary or incarceration?
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    Feb 28 2013: Not really
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    Feb 28 2013: A couple of months ago I attended a lecture by representatives of a non-profit working to promote education in Myanmar. Because there isn't a banking system there and it is difficult to distribute money in that country, the program had no useful way of drawing teachers to remote villages by paying them.

    So the non-profit arranged for the teachers to be compensated with extra food, housing, and a computer.

    I am not saying that it is efficient to compensate you in this way, Peter, but there are work arrangements that don't involve exchanges of money.

    As a second example, I saw a video Monday about health care in a poor province in India. Poor people there typically prefer to take their health issues to a practitioner called a bhopa, who does incantations of various kinds. While they do provide some monetary payment for the service, part of what the patient is required to do is bring the bhopa a chicken or goat, which is the major part of the payment.
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      Feb 28 2013: I can see how it could work on a small scale Fritzie but I can't really see it going past there. The school at which I work has 1300 students and 120 staff. The staff all have different wants and needs and the parents of the students all have different talents to offer as payment. It just seems that even in a barter based society everyone ends up writing IOUs or making Barterbucks because it just simplifies the whole thing.
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        Feb 28 2013: You are right that there needs to be some sort of barterbucks or a giant administrative arrangement.
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        Feb 28 2013: Barter is nothing more than a different form of money. Those of us who speak of a money-ess society equate barter with dollars, because dollars are just a substitute for the items you want to trade. (a dollar is easier to carry around than 12 chickens).

        Money creates social inequality while destroying the social cohesion.