This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »
Is capitalism sustainable?
Bono stated in his TED2013 talk that the numbers show that we can eradicate all poverty worldwide by 2030. While I really hope that is true, it begs the question: Is capitalism sustainable? Is it possible to have a rich and middle class without a poor class? The sad reality of capitalism is that if there is an exponentially small number of people with exponentially large wealth, there has to be an exponentially long tail of much poorer people who are each contributing to that wealth. Not that we necessarily need an exponentially small number of people with exponentially large wealth, but would the world keep running without capitalistic incentives that increase the separation between rich and poor? Can we eradicate all poverty without the rich sharing their riches? What happens to civilization when nobody is willing to work in the factories and orchards, or build roads?
(Please don't take this question the wrong way! Personally I wish that nobody had to work menial jobs. I just don't understand how we can eradicate poverty when so many jobs will always translate into low-paid labor.)
Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.
Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.
Larry Lawson
Capitalism is not, as is assumed in its American form, a socio-economic system. It is solely an economic system. It is one of the two major systems at work in our society; the other is the social system. Two different systems. Two different goals. Two different methods of meeting those goals.
The part of our society that allows direct line inheritance of wealth is more part of the social system than of the economic system It is a holdover from feudalism. It is the rot at the heart of the whole society we have developed.
Capitalism MUST be competitive in order to operate properly. It MUST be relatively fair in order to be long term sustainable. Our present form of capitalism is neither.
We can correct these problems by having generational inheritance of wealth instead of direct line inheritance. This means that the wealth of anyone who dies would be shared up amongst those who are born. Thus all members of society would receive a relatively identical birthright/inheritance. This would allow of fair competition as all would start from roughly the same starting line.
This also keeps the money moving. The whole population can spend a lot more money than a few rich kids. We ALL contribute to the wealth that our society creates. We ought to ALL benefit by it. The ability of a few members of our society to amass large portions of the wealth that is created by all of us, working in co-operation with each other, is killing our society.
In a society where we use capitalist economics as a tool to meet social needs, we'll not have poverty. Poverty is created by some few people having a majority of the wealth. They have NOT "earned" this wealth - only found ways to amass it.
Citizens' Capitalism, where the social system controls the economic system is the only way to ensure that capitalism - a fine economic system basically - MUST serve the society. Not vice-versa!
Steve Forster
Capitalism in its current form is inherently biased, discriminatory and unfair. A seemingly fickle case in point is not every musician can be a pop star. Many unknown musicians are more talented than many pop stars so it's not talent that dictates who rises to the top but often less savory aspects such as which talent can be manipulated by managers and record companies.
On a societal level when I was a kid my 6th grade teacher hypothesized that technology would enable us to work a 4 day week because it would drive down the cost of living and automate many jobs. 35 years later and I don't see any sign of society doing a 4 day week and while technology has driven down the cost of doing business for many companies they haven't reciprocated by paying people the same to work a day less.
Another case in point being that capitalism is elitist. If you come into this world with a low IQ or a mental/physical deficiency, or you acquire one along the way then pure capitalism will throw you to the wolves. In it's purist form it doesn't have a social conscience. So I don't think it is sustainable in its current form. And unless the richest 10% contribute a lot more to the social fabric of society then as history has shown us revolutions often follow. Only today kings have been replaced by corporations. Many as unethical as their royal predecessors.
I personally like the idea of capitalism. You get out what you put in. Theoretically. Only it doesn't always work out that way and you often get less than you put in due to an advantage your competition has over you. When that advantage is fair then fair enough, but fair advantage is often a euphemism that someone hasn't done their job properly and achieved an unfair advantage. Which is what the top 10% have now.
Larry Lawson
In our present form of capitalism it is able, as you say, to be what it is. Take especial note that I divide the society's major systems and do not amalgamate them as in present day thinking. What has happened is that the economic system, capitalism, has come to dominate the social system. We now try to live according to the dictates of what is good for the economic system. This is the tail wagging the dog.
It is not proper or workable for the economic system to determine the precepts of the social system. We do NOT form societies for the benefit of economic systems. We form societies for the benefit of people.
Now, before we get off on a tangent by blaming the capitalist economic system for all the ills of the society, let me make clear that the economic system is doing what it is wont to do in the exact way that best benefits it. That is its nature. It is up to us to take control of it and use it as the tool that we want it to be. We do that through our social system. It is the job of the social system to establish rules and laws that control the economic system.
I often liken a capitalist economic system to fire - a wonderful tool when kept firmly in check - but a terrible master if allowed to follow its own nature. Capitalists likewise are NOT evil people who want to turn us all into poverty-stricken slaves. They merely do what is best for their own parts of the economic system. That system rewards them handsomely. But that wealth is NOT created by capitalists. It is created by the whole society and is amassed by capitalists. Our laws allow this.
And that is our downfall. We have failed to control how the economic system operates and it has taken over our social system. It now dominates us to the point that we even try to live with each other in a dog-eat-dog fashion in our social lives!
We need, desperately, to get control of the fire. It must be made to work for us - not us for it.
Steve Forster
> It is the job of the social system to establish rules and laws that control the economic system.
...
> We need, desperately, to get control of the fire. It must be made to work for us - not us for it.
This is a very interesting point but not as easy to accomplish as one might think. Here in Australia we had the government recently try and introduce a mining royalties tax on "massive profits". This was in light of the fact that around 85% of mining profits were going offshore and that the mining companies had hugely whittled down what they pay in tax over the last 15 years.
Well, as you can imagine the mining companies came out swinging. The ads on TV were almost laughable. Depicting the average Joe saying jobs would be decimated with this tax. It was such a load of rubbish as any thinking person knew there would always be a demand for the resources but of course it had its desired result for the mining companies. A Prime Minister got knifed by his own team even though his popularity was super high in the electorate and the new PM effectively let the mining companies write the rules. The tail wagging the dog as you say. And in the end the government got no boost in revenue as the mining companies sidestepped the little they had to pay. And this is what I hate about the current use of capitalism by the mega rich.
To top it off the opposition government came out saying they'd abolish the mining profits tax and the carbon tax. A move in my opinion designed to virtually decimate our society in light of the pollution caused by burning coal.
As I mentioned, the corporations rule the roost and won't relinquish that power anytime soon. The evidence is all around us. Bankers still ripping off the system while the anti Wall St movement has run out of puff.
The next Bilderberg Group meeting would be where to aim any opposition to how capitalism is being abused. If you can find it...http://g0.to/bilderberg
Mike Colera 10+
That is their return on their investment of time and effort. If the company they work for goes broke tomorrow, they have lost a job. The owner may have lost everything, his house, all his financial assets, everything. But, if the owner is successful and has a great return on his investment, you make it sound like that is terribly wrong... How come it is only wrong in one direction....
Equality is not part of your morality?
Larry Lawson
Do not put words in my mouth and then ask me to explain. I DID NOT ever say that one who is successful should not enjoy all the rewards of that success. He should indeed enjoy his wealth so long as it is understood that he could not have gotten that wealth if not for the society in which he is established. A society that provided him with the opportunity and probably the labour and professional employees that he needed.
That labour must be fairly and properly compensated - none of this paying slave wages nonsense - and he must operate his company as a good corporate citizen without trying to stuff his pockets at the expense of other citizens or the society. A corporation must be morally and ethically responsible and answer to the society in which it operates. That society must establish the laws that keep the economic system - and all parts of that system, including corporations, banks, etc. - in strict control. It is the social system that has this task. It is the lawgiver.
Upon his death his wealth should be joined with all the wealth of those who've died in a set period (perhaps 3 years) and shared up as a birthright inheritance for all the children born in that same period of time. In this way the wealth, that essentially came from the efforts of the whole society, will be returned to that society. That will give all the children an economically equal start in life. Unlike socialism, that wealth will not be communally owned but will be the private property of the children who inherit it as a birthright. This is very simple; all children will inherit a portion of the wealth of the society in exactly the way the rich man's children inherit his wealth at present. This puts the competition that is at the heart of capitalism on a level playing field; no one born so poor that they cannot compete and no one born so rich that they've already won the competition. In this way all people can live a better life than any socialist system could ever hope to provide.
Tyler Hopkins
alan sloan
It's nothing about wealth or anyone being envious or trying to steal your money. It's a lot to do with institutionalised unfairness and a culture of selfishness which things are trashing MY society and MY planet.
I live here and wish to continue doing so. I'm personally keen to build a social system where I am able to live peacefully without people like you disrespectfully trespassing on my commons. I breathe the same air as you and drink the same water. We share - get used to it.
Your pathetic obsessions of private property are creating real problems all over the planet so Respectfully, if you don't like it on this Earth where you bave to share please go elsewhere. If you can do that without creating excess carbon dioxide and other pollution that would be preferable.
Alan Sloan
I really like your train of thought particularly on generational inheritance - but I'm afraid we're going to fall out over your description of capitalism as an economic system. I think it is actually a religion at best, a political system, or an evil conspiracy cheat the honest of their rightful share at worst.- many, not all, economic functions it delivers can be better achieved by other means.
Larry Lawson
Sorry sir, but I think that capitalism is only an economic system. As such it is a tool that ought to be used by the social system to further social goals and ends. I think you may be confusing what Americans call capitalism - which is their whole society, with the economic system that has come to dominate their whole society. They are wrong.
The prime reason for this confusion may be that they've not really understood what their social system is, how it works, and what it is for. Thus you have a nation that was set up as a republic trying to operate as a democracy.
Once you mix the social system with the economic system of a country it becomes very hard to determine where one leaves off and the other begins. In the case of America it has long been mixed and few bother to differentiate the two systems.
The social system is the prime system. It is the expression of the will of the people. It has responsibility for determining which economic system the society will make use of to reach the goals of that society.
You may disagree with me but I think that capitalism is an excellent system when not mixed with holdovers from previous systems such as direct-line inheritance from feudalism. It is a dangerous tool to be sure. It must be constantly watched over and regulated strictly. It can never be allowed to get out of hand or to control the social system. Most of those things you say you think are "capitalism", are not. They are part of the social system. Do not confuse the goals or methods of each system with those of the other.
The proper goal of capitalism is to create wealth. It does so mindlessly. That's its job. It is not required to consider social goals or methods. It is up to the society to establish social controls over its economic system. Capitalism when treated as a tool as dangerous as fire, and strictly controlled, will work for the benefit of the entire society. But that control is absolutely necessary if it is not to burn our butts!
alan sloan
Is this some turning in point in history where commerce and Government separate, in order that a clear direction can be set for our human / social needs?