- Christopher Halliwell
- Brookhaven, MS
- United States
Secondary Education Physics, Mississippi State University
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Should public schools be allowed to teach creation myths in science class?
Should christian political parties be allowed to circumvent the scientific method by using politics to put mythology in science textbooks?
Closing Statement from Christopher Halliwell
This conversation contains strongly differing opinions about public education. However, those who commented in favor of introducing creation myths into science textbooks were always religiously motivated. This is no surprise. Instead of appealing to the validity or truth of their respective creation stories, theses people appealed to "teaching the controversy". My response:
There is no controversy concerning evolution in the scientific community. "Teaching the controversy" of creation stories vs evolution is equivalent to teaching astrology next to astronomy, or alchemy next to chemistry, or magic next to electromagnetism. Without any verifiable claims to test, creation stories are not scientific. Ergo they do not belong in a science textbook.
Scott Reil
I am with you my friend, for the most part, but just wanted to clarify a point. Any human construct to date is subject to change as humans evelove (or not), religion included. But we are in full agreement that human evolution has been stunted by religious thinking, and the rush to move God to the science classroom seen in far too many places in this country (your current address not excepted) is more of the same.
Arkady, religion IS a threat to folks talking like Chris is. In Mississippi, where just a few weeks ago they finally ratified the abolition of slavery (140 years late), talking like Chris has could get you killed; indeed the guy who finally ratified slavery has already been getting threats. And despite the outward leanings of the organizational church (the Southern Baptists actually voted in support of desegregation in the early 60's), there is no doubt in my mind I can go find preachers in the Deep South who would happily provide me with biblical "proof" of the white man's superiority to this very day.
Entrenched belief is not easily swayed by political musings or even factual presentation of scientific evidence; look at the belief or disbelief of global warming. It is not surprising to find in my country it breaks down along conservative vs. liberal lines, closely mirrored by religious belief (conservatives being far more likely to be religious). INdeed it has become so much a factor of the belief system vs. science, that belief in science is lower among many conservatives than the belief in God.
And THAT'S dangerous. REALLY dangerous. Because you can sell somebody who thinks like that anything. Genocide as patriotism, prejudice as duty, belief as science... we have too many examples to count. People like that are far more dangerous to me and the world at large than gay guys marrying.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
I do not like the tendency to label and associate religion with depravity. People use religion to justify what they have in their own heart. What they have in their heart does not come from religion or science. It comes from their heart.
I still stand by my words - it does not make sense to get angry at intolerant people. How does it help to fight intolerance? "If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us." -- Hermann Hesse.
What does help is to always question our own opinions and attitudes - be it in science or religion.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Mind you often the source materials are.
So full credit to them for seeing past that.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Theology is a field of study, but perhaps not a science in the strictest sense.
After all it typically starts by assuming something divine exists with no compelling evidence which is the antithesis of modern science.
Christopher Halliwell
In order to be a scientific discipline, the field of study in question would need to make verifiable predictions. Since theology is the study of the concept of god, it has no testable claims.
I am appalled that you would take this issue to lightly. This thread is about a critically important issue. There are crazy people in Tennessee right now that are trying to change the laws to prevent evolution from being taught in school. For your information, they are doing things much worse! Do some research and you would know that they are also trying to pass a law that would require all teachers to tell a student's parent if they suspect their child is homosexual.
If you still think any religion is a force for good in this world, I implor you to reconsider.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
I may be wrong, but in your question and in some of your replies, I sense some anger. I could find a dozen Bible quotes on anger, but if you prefer evolution, I can try to explain why anger is destructive and I recommend to get rid of this attitude.
You may agree that our emotions are a product of evolution. It's also understandable why we catch emotions of each other as social species. When one person feels fear, others start to feel fear too even if they don't know the reason. Likely, it helped our ancestors to survive. Likewise, when you smile to others, others smile to you. When you are angry at other people, other people become defensive and angry at you. It's very simple. Anger often results from fear as a self-defense mechanism - also explainable by evolution.
What are you afraid of? Do you feel threat from religion? Even if it is so, if you react with anger, you will meet anger in response. What can be the result of it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8
Scott Reil
But the key difference between changing religion and changing science remains the reasons for so doing. Science changes in relation to new observations (in the most literal sense), and religion changes only in respect to new belief. As we have come to understand more of our world, we have found our religions in opposition to our science; this is hardly new. Socrates' grav est charge was turning againt the ancestral gods; penalty of death. Epicurus famously asked what need we had of the gods now that we had science? The answer came pretty quickly from the priesthoods of the myriad gods of the milieu ("Shut up or we will ruin you"). His student Titius Lucretius chronicled Epicurus' thinking in De Rerum Natura (also giving us our first look at the concept of atoms; at the time a leap of faith in its own right). It was of course Christianity that crushed this burgeoning era of reason, and the two have been in opposition ever since.
As to the Designer issue, no, we do NOT need to lend ANY credit to this nonsensical syllogism, as Darwin has quite completely shattered the premise with SCIENCE. I have always found Intelligent Design to be completely misnamed; one needs to lack one to accept the other. ALL religions are human constructs and therefore should be taught as Anthropology; Intelligent Design is not science, has been disproven by science, and that is the only reference it has to science. It cannot be taught, it must be preached. And if this ain't Anthropology, then I don't want to hear it called science...
Christopher Halliwell
"concept of atoms; at the time a leap of faith in its own right" - Any belief without evidence is faith. Science has no use for faith. If you decide to believe in atoms without evidence, you are not being scientific. Moreover, you are warping the facts. These ancient people did not have any concept of atoms, nor of their size. They simply speculated about the possibility of an "uncuttable" unit of matter. Don't pretend like they knew anything about actual atoms.
Anthropology is the study of human evolution. FYI
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
This does not mean that humans have no use for faith. Faith may not be appropriate in a science class, but it seems to be a necessary component of intelligent civilized society. E.g., most Americans believe in freedom and democracy.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
How do you determine correctness of a non-scientific belief? Can you suggest a scientific experiment to verify the existence of God? Who is trying to drag religion into the realm of science here?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
People believing in contradictory gods and goddesses, associated dogma, reincarnation etc with no reliable way too tell which if any is correct.
Do you consider our inability to test a claim a strength?
Contradictory beliefs can not all be true, even if they are useful in some ways.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
"Strength" usually refers to ability, not to inability. What often IS a strength is the ability to achieve goals DESPITE the difficulties and seeming evidence that the goal cannot be achieved. Such strength often comes from faith.
Most questions we face in life do not have "correct" or "incorrect" answers: "should I marry?" "Should I marry this person or that?" "Should I focus on career before family or vice versa?" "Should I buy a house?" "Now or later?" "Should I buy stock A or stock B?" Science cannot answer these questions, but faith often can. Faith, as I said, is not about factual truth - it's about the principles we live by.
Christopher Halliwell
Faith cannot answer any question. I assume you've taken algebra so you know how to make a substitution. When you substitute the definition of faith into a sentence, you should realize how foolish you are to believe faith is a good thing. For example, the sentence "I [have faith] that god exists" is equivalent to "I [believe for no reason whatsoever] that god exists". If you have no evidence, you have faith.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Do you agree that the question whether a god or gods or goddesses exists, not as a concept or delusion, but independent of human conscious, does have an answer?
Do we agree that science can not prove or disprove a generic immaterial god essentially outside time and space, neither matter or energy, but magically able to create and manipulate these?
Do you agree that not being able to prove or disprove something of this nature is not evidence of it's existence or is of much value in arguing for its existence?
Do you agree the burden of proof that gods exists is on those making the claim? Do you agree we should be skeptical of claims that can not be reasonably demonstrated.
I think freedom of and from religion helps support a civilized society. However, I don't think religious faith is necessary to a civilized society.
And we should distinguish between what is sometimes useful and what is likely to be true.
I agree, Faith is not about demonstrable truths, or having sufficient evidence. I'm not particularly impressed if possible delusions are useful, but people are welcome to them or to debate them if they want.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but we seem to be agreeing that religion should not be mixed up with science class, but you are suggesting faith based religious beliefs have some value in human society whether there is sufficient evidence to support them or not.
Okay fine. But it's kind of bizarre that all these competing delusions are used to build world views and values and behaviour, and hardly anyone points out the emperor has no clothes.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
What you say applies to natural sciences. But even in math, you have to take certain things without proof (e.g. that "A straight line may be drawn from any given point to any other.")
There is a number of beliefs without proof that we need in order to have a consistent worldview. E.g. "My life is worth living", "I have free will" (there is no evidence for that or even there is evidence to the contrary, but if I don't hold this belief, I cannot choose to do anything). "I believe that God exists" is not a statement of factual truth, but a pledge to adhere to certain principles. There is no rational reason to adhere to any moral rules, so, people come up with an irrational reason. No matter what, you need an irrational reason to justify a moral belief. The rules themselves still come from people.
I'd say, in science, assumption that God exists is not useful. But in many other areas of our life, it is. I'm pragmatic in my faith.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I suggest all these beliefs are open to debate on why they are reasonable to assume and what the outcomes are of this. It's not as clear cut as some fields of human endeavour, all but we don't need to assume all beliefs of this nature are equal and immune from examination.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Re: "What does buying a house have to do with claims a god exists?" -- Both are irrational emotional choices. Reason only works to confirm an irrational belief.
Re: "Do you agree that the question whether a god or gods or goddesses exists, not as a concept or delusion, but independent of human conscious, does have an answer?" -- it does not have a "correct" answer supported by evidence or reason. But everyone answers this question for himself.
Re: "Do we agree that science can not prove or disprove a generic immaterial god essentially outside time and space, neither matter or energy, but magically able to create and manipulate these?" -- Yes. Whoever tries to find physical evidence for God does not understand science and does not have faith.
Re: "Do you agree that not being able to prove or disprove something of this nature is not evidence of it's existence or is of much value in arguing for its existence?" Arguing for or against existence of God does not make sense at all. Science does not help, reason does not help. It's an irrational belief - period.
Re: "Do you agree the burden of proof that gods exists is on those making the claim?" Generally, it depends on who is interested in proving or disproving the claim. E.g. when someone makes a bomb threat, security services make all effort to prove or disprove the claim, not the one who made it. I don't insist that you believe that God exists. If you insist that God does not exist, I would ask you for the proof.
Re: "Do you agree we should be skeptical of claims that can not be reasonably demonstrated." We can choose to be skeptical about anything - even claims that can be reasonably demonstrated. Or we can choose to believe anything we like. I don't like when people tell me what I should believe. Do you?
Have to continue in the next post.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Re: "And we should distinguish between what is sometimes useful and what is likely to be true." Yes, as Mark Meijer said in one of the conversations, "what is useful and what is true are completely different considerations". I love that statement.
Re: "Tell me if I'm wrong, but we seem to be agreeing that religion should not be mixed up with science class, but you are suggesting faith based religious beliefs have some value in human society whether there is sufficient evidence to support them or not." -- yes. You have beliefs without evidence too. Just be honest with yourself.
Re: "Okay fine. But it's kind of bizarre that all these competing delusions are used to build world views and values and behaviour, and hardly anyone points out the emperor has no clothes." -- there is no physical evidence that anything has any value. Values, by the way, are irrational beliefs too :-).
Obey No1kinobe 50+
If something appears as though it could not have function without all components it must be designed.
Philosophically this is pretty close to relying on an argument from ignorance, which is questionable as something to teach in science.
Furthermore, other scientists, including theists, have gone away and looked at these supposedly irreducibly complex "constructs" and filled in a few more gaps in our understanding by finding examples of biological devices that are made up of some of the components.
For example some bacteria have a biological syringe made from a subset of components of the bacterial flagellum. It is not irreducibly complex.
The universe and life is extraordinarily complex. Just because we don't understand or are incredulous about how the planets and moon could stay in there orbits, or how atoms work, how gravity works, doesn't make little gods holding them in place or holding us down a good argument if no evidence.
Likewise a creator god is an open philosophical question. I understand where some proponents are coming from, thinking there is evidence here of a a designer, a creator because these things could not happen naturally. I understand the frustration. But I suggest firstly some of the claims have been tested and found false regarding irreducible complexity. Secondly, positing something supernatural as an explanation for say the origin of life is not a great fit for the scientific method. How do you test it? But I get the frustration as in a way science begs the question by excluding supernatural magical causes.
Injecting gods or designers into gaps, fanning controversy, is that science or politics and philiosophy
Christopher Halliwell
I agree with everything you've just said. I do not claim nonexistence, I am simply unconvinced. However your quote, "But I get the frustration as in a way science begs the question by excluding supernatural magical causes." assumes that supernatural anything has been observed. It has not. In fact the entire universe is nature. Ergo if something is not natural, it does not exist.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Although I'm not sure you could call human contraptions natural, although they are just rearrangements of natural materials by a natural animal.
But I think you also understand what I mean. That modern science does not look at magic or transcend causes.
Re: I do not claim nonexistence, I am simply unconvinced. Me too.
Christopher Halliwell
Hope that makes sense.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Adriaan Braam 20+
That story, myth or parable, has nothing to do with this physical world. Everything there is to be applied to the spiritual world.
So both sides should come together and acknowledge that neither Religion nor Science knows and can proof what happened, millions of years ago.
We might say 'the universe was created out of nothing. However, it was not created out of anything material. Just as Rembrandt created paintings from his spirit, so, on His level, God created the universe from His Spirit.
Both processes are 'similar' but, obviously on completely different levels.
Maybe this will help. as I do not have the means to express the thoughts.
http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/H.Lj.Odhner_Creation/creation.htm
Christopher Halliwell
Also, what materials did your deity use to create the universe? If none, then you are the one who believes that something can come from nothing.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Obviously you have chosen to not see a spiritual side of life as real. That's OK, we have that freedom.
So apparently you see science as the only provider of facts and truths (even if this happened many millions of years ago), not assumptions and interpretations. Does this also mean this can be repeated, and if not, what excuse do you have why it cannot be repeated? :)
Apparently you did not read or understand what I said about Rembrandt. A painting does not start with arranging brain particles or chemicals. It starts in the spiritual substance love. This is what the link above is all about. God is love and He finited His love to the point it became physical substance, material. That's why we may see e.g. iron as solid, while in fact it really is a cloud of particles.
All that being said. There is a reason why no one will ever be able to proof physically that God exists or not. As human beings we have been given and do need the freedom to go one way or the other. That's how love works, in freedom. The closest we, personally, might come to proof is through a NDE.
But please take the time to see what the link says and whether you can open your mind/spirit to it.
Sorry to be this far off topic
Christopher Halliwell
I have not "chosen to not see a spiritual side of life". There is no choice involved. I've asked thousands of religous people what evidence they have to believe in anything spiritual. Since I recieve no evidence, I have no reason to believe.
The results of all scientific theories can be repeated. That is one of the requirements for a hypothesis to become a scientific theory.
Appartently you don't understand the burden of proof. If you are willing to claim the existence of a spirit or soul, you and you alone carry the burden to prove your claim. I am not claiming anything, I am simply unconvinced.
Science only studies the natural world. If you define your deity to be supernatural, then you have defined a non-existent entity. Period.
Agreed, this is off topic. However it is extremely important that you and other religous people understand the burden of proof.
Adriaan Braam 20+
How come science can tell someone they think, but not what they think?
Why not?
When you love someone, like a spouse, can you in any way show and proof that other person on a measuring device how much you love her?
Why not?
There exists a spiritual realm, or reality, that is more real than matter. You may need a NDE to open your mind to that possibility.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Love is human concept. You can define it and the type of associated behaviours. While there is currently no lovemeter there is evidence of love in the actions of others.
If by spiritual realm, you mean the realm of human consciousness we agree.
NDE are not quite proof of a magical spiritual realm IMO. Even some people who have had NDE accept that they might just be the products of a natural mind, much like dreams and hallucinations.
Christopher Halliwell
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Direct Genesis interpretation is not the best way to go, but the idea - designed (created, in order to create), shouldn't be dismissed.
Well then who created the creator (assuming there is one)? Now that's a fun question.
Adriaan Braam 20+
There exists however an internal meaning that every individual can always apply to their own life and their own spiritual development.
Here is this short treatise of the Creation Story by Emanuel Swedenborg. I hope you like it.
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/source/The%20Real%20Creation%20Story.pdf?attredirects=0
Even if you don't, :) I'm 99% sure you'll like this book about the human mind:
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/TheHumanMind.pdf
I like your "fun question" too, but for me I know there is one Creator. :)
Daryl Roche
Political Organizations are taxable….so the religious institutions who currently enjoy remaining tax free organizations need to make a choice….are you political organizations and therefore taxable or are you religious organizations and therefore non-taxable? And how do you reconcile spending vast amounts of your parishioner's contributions on political endeavors and not using those resources to more equitable and charitable affectations as prescribed by your god?
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Christopher Halliwell
My purpose in creating this thread is to get a feel for how people in the TED community feel about the political movements to "teach the controversy". I appreciate your input.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
If you want to include a debatie on creationism versus science, fine. Do it in debating classes.
It's just a bit disingenuous to use the principle of free speech, debate, critical thinking as an excuse to sneak teaching creationism alongside science in science classes.
The school kids can come on TED, or Youtube etc or debate class, or the school yard to debate and discuss all they like.
What you proposing is not a good excuse to teach some special interest view alongside the best science.
Christopher Halliwell
Wow. Just, wow. What part of the bible was editted? Which part of gensis was changed to reflect what we now know about the universe? Are you so naive as to think that christianity CHOSE to change? Religions of any sort do not change unless socitey forces them to. Take christians for example. They used the bible to justify everything from war to slavery. Even today people use their respective "holy books" to persecute gay people.
Seriously, wake up.
edward long 100+
Mr. Halliwell issued a call for examples of falsity being presented as scientific truth.
I am awaiting his assessment of the eight stark examples of science teaching false information as though it were truth. Is your question about willingness to change my opinion directed to me or to Mr. Halliwell? If it is to me my answer is I always change my beliefs if they are falsified.
edward long 100+
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
When I was a school boy, I was taught that Pluto is a planet.
I know, I know, "but science continually reviews theories and replaces them with better ones!" - so does religion. After all, people do not stones adulterers and sabbath breakers and women are allowed to speak in churches. It's a fact, man, it's a fact. How open are YOU to change your opinion?
Christopher Halliwell
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
My question was addressed to Christopher.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I recall some exagerated cloning claims not so long ago.
In my own personal experience doing post grad work I was nominated to build on some previous research into a stock price prediction model. Looked too good to be true. On closer examination it was. The previous student has been a bit selective with data.
Hopefully any shonks eventually get found out through verification. Which is again the strength of science.
I think the point that science comes back to evidence, repeatable, testable claims is still a strength of the process and helps it improve over time, albiet with a few bumps in the road.
Compare this with personal revelation.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
There is no need to edit the Bible. It's enough that history books are rewritten every decade. Bible is not written to reflect factual truth. It reflects who we are as humans. I find that all atrocities and absurdities in the Bible make us stop and think about them. This is the truth about humans. If you change them or sugar-coat them, you will deny the truth and it will be repeated. I understand that you don't like what is written there.
These things repeat every time when we take pride in our achievements, pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves that "this was then" or "this applies to the other people, not to us". Biblical teachings are hypocritical only when they are applied to "others" instead of ourselves.
Evolution is not possible without both repeatability and random mutations. Religion, in my opinion, serves the purpose of cultural DNA replicated over generations. Other social factors drive the changes. But without DNA repeatability, there would be no social evolution.
Gay persecutions will stop too, just as slavery, sexism, and antisemitism did. Just wait and see.
Christopher Halliwell
You cannot claim that evolution is impossible. You might as well claim that gravity is impossible. There is a huge difference between gravity and the Theory of Gravity. One is an observable fact (gravity), while the other is an explanation (theory) of that fact. Similarly, evolution itself is a fact and the Theory of Evolution is simply an attempt to explain how the fact of evolution occured. If you know anything about scientific theories, then you know that all theories are explanation of at least one observable fact. If you don't believe me, try to find out on your own exaclty what fact the Theory of Evolution attempts to explain. You will discover that the process of change over time (evolution) is not only a demonstrable and observable fact, but you were tricked and deluded by your fellow christians into believing otherwise.
Good luck studying.
edward long 100+
Christopher Halliwell
Visit talkorigins.org to learn more about evolution and the Theory of Evolution. You would do well to learn the difference between the two.
. People can misinterpret data, but facts are facts.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Science is subject to human failings and fraud, but being evidence based it is still perhaps the best process we have for understanding the universe reliably and consistently.
I don't think Edward is suggesting the faults mean we should disregard all science. Just that we should be careful not to overstate the scientific method and the current state of science.
E.g. I agree with Edward that the current scientific position on the origin of life is quite speculative. Whereas I perhaps differ in regards to how well tested evolution is. It is much less speculative than abiogenesis.
We probably also disagree on the value of personal revelation and intuition is sufficient evidence for many claims or beliefs.
edward long 100+
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Generalizations are almost never true. "Literal interpretation" is a figure of speech. They may believe what they like. Just ask them why they do not stone adulterers and sabbath breakers and why they do not cut off their hands and pluck their eyes as recommended in Mark 9 or "become eunuchs for the kingdom of God" following a recommendation in Matthew 19:12. It's impossible to interpret the Bible literally. Most of what Jesus says are parables which, by definition, use metaphoric language.
As you may have noticed, I am not opposed to evolution and I don't think creationism belongs in science class. So, I'm not sure why you are trying to teach me. Why do you think that your knowledge is better than mine?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Perhaps understanding whether particular sections were meant literally or figuratively by the authors would provide some context, but in the end its a big collection of diverse books open to divergent interpretation.
Unfortunately the so called instruction manual for life didn't come with an instruction manual or reliable instructor.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Some stories may be mythicalised but people probably did suffer according to the old law. In the middle east some of these old religiously endorsed values still rule.
Whereas becoming eunuchs for god is probably a figure or speech.
I've heard lots of unsatisfactory explanations for the nasty stuff.
Its a bit sad hearing a basically good person trying to explain why gods rules, commands, acts in the bible are moral. Why it was okay to commit genocide, treat women as chattel etc. I suggest the religion, gods, culture and life in general were more brutal backward and barbaric. And trying to connect an all loving god concept to it fails. Hell, is not all loving. Blood sacrifices are not all merciful.
Seems the god of the Christian bible keeps changing the rules and his character.
In the new testament you can read about them deciding whether or not to allow non jews to join the club and whether as adults they need to be circumcised.
I agree with you that you can see how far we have or haven't come, how much improved our society is now compared to the one ruled by Yahweh's rules. From slavery to marrying your rapist. And also how in some ways our basic nature has not changed that much.
I suggest part of the problem is Christianity is still connected to the old sexist, homophobic values in the bible.
There are aspects of the bible about charity etc that still make sense post enlightenment, but a lot that doesn't.
To be ruled by that book is a scary thought.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
I can put my confidence in science proportional to the evidence. I would not put my faith in science. I do not put my faith in the Bible. I do not put my faith in the teachings of any church. That would be idolatry. I put my faith in "I AM WHO I AM".
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Don Anderson 20+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Christopher Halliwell
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Science does develop and discard.
Go back far enough and we we only aware of of one galaxy. The others were called nebulae, because blobby clouds were all the telescopes of the time could see. Now we have hubble looking back 13 billion years with billions of other galaxies.
E=MC2 is less than a century old. We only got compelling evidence of planets outside our solar system recently. The double helix structure of DNA was only discovered 60 years ago. I guess the expanding universe is less than a decade old. While the big bang is the prevelent now and we have evidence of the radiation from it, steady state was most accepted the early 1900's.
In medical research more than half of the conclusions in published papers are found to be wrong later.
So in science we need to be a bit humble about current thinking. Having said that evolution is one of the most tested and enduring theories. It has been refined and there are still controversial aspects (not including intelligent design.) and is likely to be refined in the future.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I expect this prohibits teaching creationism given it is a religious perspective.
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Christopher Halliwell
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I know some theists who see the big bang as being compatible with creationism. Could be.
If the science is done well, they have tried to falsify, and the conclusions are sufficiently supported by evidence, it has been reasonably peer reviewed, so be it, whatever the result
The best science we have indicates the Earth is about 3 or 4 billion years old and the universe is 13.6 billion, not 6,000 to 10,000, and no evidence humans walked with dinosaurs. I'm not saying you think that. Just that YEC should suck it up. Actually their god concept is powerful enough to create the universe 6,000 years ago to look much older and as though animals evolved and share a common ancestor.
To be consistent I would accept hell is real, angels, alien abductions, ghosts, gods, fairies, demons, reincarnation, thetans whatever if there is compelling evidence.
I would agree that the motivation doesn't matter that much in better understanding the universe if the science is done well and the conclusions are validated.
Christopher Halliwell
This is arguably is the single greatest attribute of science. While religions have "truths" that do not change with the passage of time. Science, however, is willing to accept criticism and change if the evidence requires.
Anyone, I would think, would be forced to believe in angels and demons if there was any evidence. Good thing there isn't.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
There should not be religious instruction in state schools.
Teach what you like at home or churches within reasonable limits.
Happy to teach about all religions under humanities, religious experience in psychology etc.
And no special exceptions about teaching the controversy or all (special interest) sides of the story. Just teach the best established science and update the curriculum as science updates and improves.
Mitch SMith 50+
Everything after that is moot.
http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/OLPC-1.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/marvin_minsky_on_health_and_the_human_mind.html
Minsky is good value.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
However, in the same essay, Karl Popper writes: "...historically speaking all — or very nearly all — scientific theories originate from myths, and that a myth may contain important anticipations of scientific theories...if a theory is found to be non-scientific, or "metaphysical" (as we might say), it is not thereby found to be unimportant, or insignificant, or "meaningless," or "nonsensical." But it cannot claim to be backed by empirical evidence in the scientific sense — although it may easily be, in some genetic sense, the "result of observation."
Creation myth is a valuable part of human culture and has many great philosophical points. I see nothing wrong teaching it to kids as such, but outside a science class.
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
Should I vote for you?
Who's image will we vote for?
All is vanity.
edward long 100+
"Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12: 8 KJV)
Mitch SMith 50+
Let us say "unsuccessful" instead!
So the value of any notion of "god" is only in the test by which it can dominate others for your own vanity.
If uttering the unknowable word gets what you want - it is successful.
So by that definition - just make one up and rule everyone. But it better be a good one.
I still have respect for the root Jewish mythos that forbade the utterence or the graven image of the non-existent - while still retaining the power to get exactly what you want - the power of satan himself! Who is the exact same fiction as "god". These guys were the greatest psychopaths of all time - and it is by their fiction that the current extinction proceeds unabated .. does "god" love humans? .. By the evidence - he hates us and cannot wait to get us off his universe - that might be the only real proof of a "god" along with all the stories and fictions we ascribe "him"..
Words collapse them all.
The truth never lay there.
But if it is successfuil for some?
Go for it - they become "god" by surviving.
And that is the root of truth.
Come my friend- let us worship the light - the giver of light and the light he casts - Lucifer the great! He is spelled out in the greatest details in his book - the Bible.
Or we can cast off the shell, and know what is better than light.
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
edward long 100+
I am unaware of any passage in The Holy Bible which calls Lucifer the giver of light. Here is the one passage where Lucifer is called son of the morning: " How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning ! how art thou cut down to the ground , which didst weaken the nations! " Isaiah 14: 12 KJV
Mitch SMith 50+
I do not know the etymology of the word as it found its way into the Bible... how is it that a Roman word came to be there in the English translation? Is this the work of Constantine?
For myself, I already know what "Lucifer" is. And to me, if I followed the teachings of the odl testament, I would be quickly locked up and studied by those desparate to cure psychopathy.
But in the mean time, I am confident that Jesus was neither a Jew, a Christian nor a satanist.
If you want to impose on Children any kind of doctrine that makes you a satanist.
The Scientific method as at its root the acnowledgemnent that "it works for now and can be improved". The Satanists will plug that gap with lies.
And therefore, If we muzst put these stumbling blocks before our children, I would say that the stumbling block with stairs is preferable to the one designed to dash the childs brains out on the father's ignorance.
I name all the Judeo-Christians as servers of Satan an I will not tollerate their damage to my child.
You will notice that I include the doctrine of "the human as a part of teh Empire" as the evil work of the prince of lies - and I have already said that "education" is false - not "flawed" or "imperfect" as you would like to inject your apology for failure - but false - false from the start and false now.
This notion of "Intelligent design" is a recent thing - none of the great Prophets suggested it. I name it as the work of liars - the Lucifers of the false light.
If I wanted to join the pillage, I would invent a space-goat which excretes life - and it would be just as valid as your god.
And it would be just as unreliable - it does not work now, it has never worked, and the advancement of ignorance in the name of a religion is as evil as i can imagine.
Schools are wrong - not "flawed" wrong - by design - any kind of politics you want to play in that wrongness only adds to it.
edward long 100+
I found another passage in The Holy Bible that may interest you regarding Lucifer, aka Satan:
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.: II Corinthians 11:13,14 KJV
Mitch SMith 50+
The key is for all to uinderstand that science cannot and should not purport to present any more than theory. Therefore the true understanding of what theory is must first be promoted.
Any scientist who insists that theory is truth should be challenged.
What is taught in science classes is science - theory, not theology.
But even before that, the notion of a school must be addressed. As it stands in most places, a school is run as a violation of students.
No one needs be "taught" - all people have an inate desire to learn. They do not need to be forced to the task.
If a school was structured such that the student's thirst for learning is supported, that the student decides which knowledge is the way forward for him/her, then the role of teacher passes from dictator to nurturer.
I would argue that those who nurture the advancement of theory should, at the first, explain what theory is. And then to discern if the student's thirst is theology - to direct the student to a church.
As it stands, the Creationist push to pollute the discipline of theory is a violation of children on top of the violation they already endure.
Theologians can believe what they want - but they have not got a mandate to violate anyone but themselves.
The Victorian classroom model is a platform for violation - and the violators all want a piece of the action.
If the tree is corrupt, I would say that waging war in the branches is no more than entertainment - if there is a solution, it is the root which needs cutting. Then the war will end with the tree.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
When you see some pottery or a watch you can tell it's not a natural phenomena like life. Life is very different from human artifacts.
Life seems to reproduce and die without any agency.
Snowflakes look a bit designed, but that's what you get when a bunch of polar water molecules freeze.
There doesn't seem to be any absolute purpose to life that I can see. Just survival, passing on genes, adaptation, and the meaning humans choose to apply to their own lives.
The theory of evolution makes logical sense to me. I really don't see how you deny the role of DNA, changes in gene frequency, and the obvious interconnections across the tree of life.
Look at how much we share with all mammals. Look at how much we share with all vertibrates - four limbs, 2 camera eyes etc. Evolution makes intuitive and scientific sense in light of what we know today about DNA and natural selection.
edward long 100+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
My understanding is the scientific position on Abiogenesis is still very speculative. Whereas the theory of evolution is much better tested and established.
I agree it is a big challenge. I consider it an open question.
But I suggest it unlikely to happen in one step.
We know amino acids occur naturally.
We know of RNA stuff, like viruses, simpler than DNA stuff.
We know single cells still exist
etc.
So for me it is not completely unfeasible to happen naturally, but I don't have much on an idea how.
But then again I don't really understand how gravity works. I can do newtons calculations in my sleep. I kind of understand gravitons and gravity force carriers, but it is pretty counter intuitive.
Personally, I don't find resorting to the supernatural very satisfying for the tough questions e.g. the origin of life, how the universe came to be, and why my football team keeps losing. But they seem the best remaining places to postulate god and I understand others find the god hypothesis makes sense for them.
edward long 100+
Scot Wilcox 10+
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
I don't see any harm, however, in teaching science as science, religion as religion, and mythology as mythology.
Robert Winner 50+
You do not want a debate you are looking for a fight with this approach.
Bob.
Christopher Halliwell
You are correct in that I used strongly worded descriptions for my title. This was done purposefully to pre-alert all commenters to my personal stance on the topic. I created this conversation to learn more about how the TED community feels about this issue. I appreciate your input.
Robert Winner 50+
National Academy of Sciences states:
Today, many religious denominations accept that biological evolution has produced the diversity of living things over billions of years of Earth's history. Many have issued statements observing that evolution and the tenets of their faiths are compatible. Scientists and theologians have written eloquently about their awe and wonder at the history of the universe and of life on this planet, explaining that they see no conflict between their faith in God and the evidence for evolution. Religious denominations that do not accept the occurrence of evolution tend to be those that believe in strictly literal interpretations of religious texts.
—National Academy of Sciences, Science, Evolution, and Creationism
Since you have taken a position in absolute disagreenment to anything religious being acceptable and I have taken the stance of appreciating both sides of the argument and seeking a plausable solution .... we are at odds and I see no willingness to bend in your position. Therefore I suggest the following quote:
Let that which is of Ceasar be unto Ceasar and that which is of God be unto God.
I look forward to conversing with you again on a subject that we can openly discuss and appreciate each others views.
I wish you well. Bob.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Are you suggesting that the popularity of creationist beliefs is enough of a reason for it to be taught alongside established biology, geology, cosmology etc?
I personally have no issue with discussion and debate in the appropriate forums. I just object in principle to special interests and political lobbying getting special treatment for their world views alongside established science, by passing the scientific processes, essentially a free pass for a loud voice.
My views are reinforced in this case because I support the separation of church and state (schools). I don't think government schools are the appropriate place for religious indoctrination even when creator is disguised as an intelligent designer.
Any criteria for what special interest topics get taught as alternatives to established science. Put it to a vote at the local education authority? A phone poll? Or just anything you happen to agree with gets in?
Personally I think science classes should teach the best current established science. If that changes over time, and it will, the curriculum can be updated. If we find evidence of a species of angelic animals, they can be included in biology. If we find gods responsible for the force of gravity, that can go in physics. But lets leave it to scientific processes to decide what the best science is and not special interest groups. Controversy is not the standard by which we decide what goes in school curriculum in my opinion.
I guess "One nation under god" upsets some US secularists and maybe a few polytheists.
Christopher Halliwell
"Since you have taken a position in absolute disagreenment to anything religious being acceptable..."
That is not what I have said at all. I am against anything nonscientific from being in a science textbook. As soon as ANY religion develops a verifiable claim, we can talk science. As it is, no religion has anything to do with science. In fact, quite the opposite. They tend to resent an effort to actually understand the world we live in. Instead, they seem to only want to take solace in their beliefs. I don't know about you, but I would rather know the sad truth than continue to delude myself in a blissful lie.
A drunkard can be happier than a sober man, but that's no more to the point.
Robert Winner 50+
The National Academy of Science, religious leaders and scientists seem to be able to play together nicely. You stated that you used the terms in your explaination intentionally to state your position on religion versus science. You also state in your bio that you are atheist. This appears to be an opportunity for you to grind a anti-religion ax and not really about schools. You also state you are a teacher. As strongly as you have stated your case and anti-religious views I would be concerned for any student who did not share your views.
If I wanted my children to be education in a religious environment I would send them to a church school or private school based on a religion of my choice.
I do not know about drunkards ... I will have to trust you on that.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Actually, not sure if you were replying to me or Chris.
Christopher Halliwell
My personal anti-theist stance does not affect my belief that myths should not enter a science textbook. Regardless of your spritual beliefs, we should all come to the conclusion that science should be the only thing in science textbooks. I would thank you not to throw ad hominems at me.
Robert Winner 50+
Thanks for taking the time. Bob.
Chris Kelly 20+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
The suppression of any information will make it leak out regardless of any one or group's objectivism. Allow both evolutionism and creationism, children are more intelligent than we give credit for. (Why? I feel as though parents believe they know what's best, and that blinds them to know children are highly adaptable at young ages - with or without your cognitive awareness of their natural states of mind.)
WE are talking about children EDUCATION.
Indeed creationism is unfavorable to those of the scientific community (and who value 'science'), but while we argue this.... We waste time being practical with our scientific achievements - miles of psychological based research being done every moment. While we sit here and worry about how we began? We hardly understand our current conditions.
There is no question politics and religion go hand in hand... The debate of our founding father's 'God'-based faiths, should be seen along side of their political philosophies... Separation of church and state is idealistic at best. Religion is as personal as it is communal. To neglect the impact religion REALLY has on political manners, is to not realize how a debate like this begins - by distracting you from the real issues.
Information isn't the problem. I was raised to believe in the Christian-Catholic God but was given the room to guide myself into understanding God is as unique to every individual, let alone religion.
Let the FUNDAMENTAL Christians win. Creationism should be allowed.
Real knowledge and knowing cannot be suppressed or eliminated, it can only be ignored.
If you really feel it is destructive to allow creationism to be taught along side of evolution, you must ask yourself a few things:
What is it I am afraid of?
When is more perspective bad?
How can we expand creationism?
What makes creationism appealing?
Is this theory limited to Christianity?
What is the best argument for/against creationism?
Gordon Barker 10+
If you are teaching science you need to define what science is to start with.
If you do, you will realize that creationism is religion dressed up.
If you want to "teach the controversy" you have to first understand that there is no controversy. There are only a few strident fundamentalists screaming in the dark that their interpretations of a few pages of their magic book in interpreted their way. To give it the time it is worth in an average school year is to spend about 5 minutes on it.
Evolution has been around since before Darwin and has mountains of evidence for it.
Creationism has no evidence and no working theory to replace it.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Science has no unifying definition, and if you consider Kuhn (Structure of Scientific Revolutions) to be the best explanation and way to define what science is and how it works... Then we haven't taught science right in school for generations. As science takes consensus, community, consistency and higher practices of the above. Oh which, by the way, theologian cultures have similar systems of checks and balances.
Creationism isn't religion, it's a theory that originates from religious doctrines. Which, is not strictly bound by religious scripture but also philosophers and scientist - but you wouldn't know that since you are so fundamental about your beliefs....
Never once did I use the word controversy, in fact, I made it very clear, it would be obvious to children that if we taught both creationism and evolutionism, the child THEMSELVES would figure out the truth, without your flawed objective views.
Creationist, if they are genuine, understand evolution may be a part of the creation process and God had designed us to evolve in a certain way over time... You cannot disprove this idea... And to deny it with no reflection, is stupid.
My questions are not in favor of anything besides opening up the debate.
More perspective is never bad. Understanding the arguments for creationism can make evolutionist more equipped to debate. Understanding alternative creation stories/myths/theories and/or expanding them - will grant more awareness.
See? while your approach actually proves more limiting, it ultimately would create a taboo. Mine would get children to your desired objective "goals" anyways, but without actually being an objectivist with education. And being pragmatic or existential.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Have the debate in debating class if you like.
Teach creation myths in humanities.
It's a slippery slope to let special religious interests hijack any subject. Do you really think evolution would be taught fairly along side a particular interpretation of supernatural creation?
Let the peer review process deal with scientific controversies. Even most new peer reviewed scientific findings turn out wrong (especially in medicine). But over time they get improved or discarded. Teach the established scientific theories like evolution not any special interest religiously inspired hypothesis, especially accredited ones like ID.
So happy to debate in schools, but not to teach special religious interests.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Do you actually think US citizens who want to learn creationism can not find information outside of science classes?
Creationism is not suppressed, its just not appropriate for science class. Is everything not taught in science class suppressed?
Creation stories come from religions. And the creation story ID proponents want taught is a version that is compatible with their particular theology. It is disingenuous to claim creationism has nothing to do with religion, even when the replace creator with intelligent designer.
I suggest you are mixing up the question of what should be taught in science class with censorship.
I'm happy if they even acknowledge there is a controversy at the start of th class but then teach science.
Not letting special religious interests inject non science into science classes is not total censorship or suppression, its about teaching science and not being a tool for religious indoctrination.
From distant memory I think you will find in the Dover trial ID failed the religious test, and is unconstitutional to be taught in state schools.
Separating church and state is not total censorship. People are free to express their views just not via state instruments such as public schools.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
And avoiding my positions entirely.
Who cares if it is in science class? Most of the people on TED are guilty of overstating what science is anyways.
If the debate continues, in which pushes creationism out of science class, that won't stop anything. In fact it will help the fundamentalist cause of spreading their ideologies - they will have MORE reason to keep being closed minded.
Like most of you are being here.
Creationism - intelligent design - is not only limited to Christianity or theologians but philosophers/scientist.
Indeed, a giant premise of creationism is faith based, but you have no idea how much evolution actually is.... It's a theory! Yes, we evolved, but HOW, WHAT exactly evolves we have very little idea...
If at any point creationism is getting more favored in a classroom than evolution theory, than guess what? Looks like neoatheist, and non-religious folk are going to actually need to organize instead of being militant for militant sakes.
Religion isn't going away, to be arrogant enough to suppress a LARGE group's desire to want to bring their traditions of science into the schools, let them. Be the bigger people.
Most people overstate the word 'science' so often, the word gets devalued and is made into an alternative religious ideology. Maybe with some information which is 'clearly' not science ina science class, children can decide for themselves.
Because, again, this isn't about you all, it's about children.
They will be able to filter the information being paralleled with it's contrary position. To try and protect and prevent this religious agenda of creationism in school, will only backfire overtime.
Essentially, Obey, stop being petty, and put faith real knowledge will always outshine falsehoods.
But the question of God should be as scientific as any other question, because it is open still and like I said above/below - this neoatheist trend needs to hit the limelight or its just pathetic
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Because science is naturalistic and deals with falsifiable claims?
Because most views of creationism have a religious or supernatural context.
Because intelligent designer is generally code for a god.
I also have a different view of what a scientific theory is. Its not the same thing as colloquial usage. Look it up.
I do acknowledge the prevalent theories may be updated or discarded at any time when a better one comes along. If a better alternative comes along than evolution, happy to teach that. But creationism or any other views shouldn't bypass the peer review process etc just because some people don't agree with the science. Have you thought through the precedent of teaching whatever influential special interests groups want rather than the best science?
Maybe we have different ideas of what science is.
I work in a Research organisation so I might have a different perspective to you.
I'm all for the debate. But in the proper place.
You seem to be implying I'm a neo atheist. I've been an atheist long before the current trends. I'm not really an antitheist either. I support freedom of religion, along with the separation of church and state. This issue relates to the latter.
Yes it is about the children. They deserve to be taught the best science and not be the playthings of special religious interest groups. Science class is not the place to teach every social controversy, or even worse selectively inject certain religious views that sit outside science.
Science class is also not the place to aggressively compare and debunk religious beliefs such as creationism or young earth. Just teach the science.
It's not petty to keep science for science class and the debate where it belongs. It is a sound principle, not petty.
Perhaps the pettiness is on the other side unhappy that their beliefs are not being given special treatment to be taught alongside the established science.
Anyway good discussion. Ta.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
"But the question of God should be as scientific as any other question"
I suggest it is. We have applied the scientific method for a few hundred years and found no empirical evidence of gods. I'm afraid invisible, immaterial, transcendent, entities outside of the reality we can test and observe, are concepts that the scientific method is not built for.
I agree we don't know if any beings outside of the reality we can test and observe exist or not. We really don't know what a reality outside the one we can test or observe means, or exists other than a human concept, let alone any beings in it.
"this neoatheist trend needs to hit the limelight or its just pathetic"
I don't think the separation of church and state (schools), or protecting science classes from special interests is just a neoatheist issue. As a parent, I want my daughter taught science in science class not the loudest special interest getting special treatment. Do you understand that. I don't care if it is creationism or something pro homosexuality that is not established science.
No issue debating or discussing the issue elsewhere.
Why should creationism get special treatment and not some equally speculative non established pro homosexual or pro feminism or pro racism special interests. Because they have the loudest voice?
In Australia we don't have a formal separation of church and state. In fact our head of state, of our constitutional monarchy, is the English Queen who is also the head of the Church of England. The Christian lobby has managed to get religious instruction (mainly Christian) and chaplains into state schools, which I also object to as a parent who supports secularism and freedom of religion and is antimonarchy. You might like it here. No constitution to prevent religious views (including sanitised creationism) being included in state curriculum.
Do you support the separation of church and state?
Do you accept ID is not established sc
Christopher Halliwell
Essentially, I would like to you to start from scratch. Pretend that you know nothing about evolution or the scientific method and do some research. You will be surprised what you learn.
However, this topic is not about evolution, or any specific theory. This thread is about the movement of religiously motivated politicians attempting to put non-scientific fairy tales put in scientific textbooks. I look forward to your reply.
Cheers
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
It's one that is a middlist, which values non-extremism. Had you read my profile, Einstein himself has something to say about trusting authority figures with information. We shouldn't entirely.
Science is not this flawless system of checks and balances. Since this conversation is talking about education and children - how about how science has allowed our youth to be pumped up with drugs? Not "science" fault? Political issue? Odd, they seem so closely associated, don't they? Since science developed the drugs, pharmaceutical companies campaign for their usage with scientist being the reliable sources. Indeed, a distrust of science, but not deep, just the right amount. To not give faith to a disconnected body of men (especially Western scientist) who are known to be sexist, racist and straight out white supremest - maybe not consciously, but their actions prove otherwise. (Check out feminist epistemology)
I am biased? While I attempt to look at what both sides of the debate can offer, your debate premises are not - you are proposing the idea of creationism in science classrooms is not tolerable. You have presented nothing but biased notions here. My only bias is to not have bias - which is a catch 22.
"As you study science" this indicates a lot of what I have said already on this conversation.. you can't just study 'science' it isn't a linear practice.. a scientist isn't a master of science, but a master of a specific specialized science...
Creation myths are as ancient as any other stories we have in anthropology and humanities. To dismiss them, dismisses our human lineage, which is clearly based on science/history, since the above are SCIENCES.
I read a good amount of evolutionary psychology, I can probably teach you a thing or two... lol which at this point is obvious.
Your last statement is, again, clear to your biased position.
Christopher Halliwell
Yes, you are biased. Anyone who rejects evolution is either misinformed, or has not ever heard of it. Evolution is a fact. Welcome to the present day.
I would love for you to "teach" me something about evolution. I look forward to your "information" that you got from a creationist website about how evolution is impossible.
/sarcasm off
Obey No1kinobe 50+
In this case I just think the case to make a special exception for creationism to be snuck into science class alongside established science doesn't stack up. All the principles or free speech, being against censorship etc is just a smoke screen.
You don't get to teach a special interest view on history that is not established history such as holocaust denial as an alternative to established history in history class. Similarly science class should not be used to give equal status to the loudest special interest world views alongside established science. That is the principle.
In addition, the US constitution prohibits the state establishing religion. Now they are no longer trying to teach Genesis 1 and 2 as science, but creationism or intelligent design is inherently religious in a non dogmatic sense. It supports the abrahamic monotheistic belief systems. It's not a Buddhist view or polytheist view. Imagine the text saying "the intelligent designer or designers", to fit in the polytheistics. May need some more changes to fit in Wiccans or Scientologists.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Too assume they are people that NEVER exchange political exploitation (money for research) in return for favors, of the sort which are profitable either academically or monetarily...
You're right no one is claiming science is perfect, but when you dictate science as being the answer to the holy question "how does one live life?" - well, guess what, sounds pretty religious to me.
Scientific research is far from perfect, but what helps is theorizing - what you guys are talking about when you say it corrects itself.. But that, SLIGHT idea change takes a mountain of effort and work to do culturally, it's but people still talk about greek philosophers like they were born yesterday. It's maddening. Depending on the special field, there will be a general few paradigms these fields educate within. Necessary for development.
You're putting faith into an abstract idea of science. And defending it by saying scientific method or reason, or logic... That's because the neoatheist trend is very real. The paradigm of a culture originating in scientific communities, being watered down into propaganda (at times) and philosophical scaffolding (most of the time).
Faith isn't inherently irrational. It's what you decide to apply the faith to. Are you irrational for putting faith in science? (Or any type of strong belief) Eh, who is to say what irrationality really is? It's a more recent question of cog sci. We seem like we can be logical creatures, but we are not computers at the same time looking at ourselves like a computer makes us seem more like one and better understand ourselves. Yet, we still do not objectively understand these parts of our thinking which would be consider irrational to use in a certain sequence.
Do you even know what the word biased means?
Clearly I READ about evolution, in psych and humanities (namely culture studies).
Biology is only one field to apply evolution too.
Most creationist agree to microevolution, guy.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Its competitive. In the end the model or conclusions that best fit the evidence win out,until something better is found.
The steady state universe was the most accepted view until we found evidence the universe was expanding at an accelerating rate.
Im not sure irrational is the right word, but based on my understanding it would be misguided to assume science is a perfect process and not subject to human dynamics.
How do you define faith? If its believing something without sufficient evidence, well maybe irrational is a bit strong a term, for some situations, but it is fair to ask whether the belief is justified in terms of being correct. It is a different question to consider if it is useful.
I think my view of science is more balanced than the straw man you present. Its not perfect but it works better than any other process for understanding the universe. The evidence it works is in the technology we have from applying it.
Religious belief is understandable given our biological and cognitive make up. But does that make all religious beliefs correct. If they provide some personal or social benefits, that does not make them correct.
My view is not all beliefs have equal standing in terms of evidence to support them.
Are all religious beliefs rational given your current understanding of the universe. Is it rationale to assume gods are responsible for lightening, floods, mass murders etc. Is believing in Scientology rational? Is there sufficient evidence to believe the angel Gabriel dictated the Quran to muhumad over many years. Is there sufficient evidence to believe in Mormon beliefs about planets with Mormon gods. Was Buddha really born from his mothers side after she was impregnated by a beam of light.
So is it rational to have faith in extraordinary claim without sufficient evidence?. Or is personal religious experience and intuitive feelings enough?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Just wanted to ask if you were suggesting that if something is commonplace than it always rational?
Alan Russell
You may have put faith in science, but I do not. My confidence and trust in any specific theory is a direct result of my understanding of the evidence presented for it. If I am not convinced, then I have no right to say I believe based on faith or any other ridiculous reason that some people give for their beliefs."
It's not a question of fault. It was more a question of adolescent expediency. I learned the theories and the experiments and evidence to support them, but initially I simply had to believe. I don't credit theories simply because I don't understand them or lack the knowledge they require. But as a student, I wanted good grades, so I believed what I was told.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Good to be discerning about what is reasonably well established and what is cutting edge and speculative.
Also it is an ongoing human process and we get it wrong sometimes.
In the early years they also omit teaching about the margins of error in predictions.
I think its okay to say well this is the current state of scientific understanding, and it will be different significantly in another 10 years or 50 or 100. I mean special relativity less than a 100 years old. The expanding universe confirmed recently. String theory is a bit bogus. But evolution is one of the best tested and robust theories. There really isn't much scientific debate. There is a significant religiously political movement.
Science is probably the greatest human invention. But it is good to put it in context. The fact that it adjusts to better fit the evidence is a positive.
Christopher Halliwell
-
My entire point is that you did not "have to believe". You were provided with all the information you needed to come to your own conclusion. You decided to believe on faith, which is the worst possible reason anyone can give for any belief.
Don Anderson 20+
Government should neither support nor infringe upon any religion, and currently public schools preach atheism via evolution-creationism and thus support a religion.
That is not to say evolution is a myth or religion, just that preaching evolution-creationism as the complete story is only a myth.
For example; it is true that flowers evolved to attract more pollen-feeding-insects, pollen-feeding-insects evolved to better use flowers. But pollen-feeding-insects could have not have survived before flowers, nor could have flowers survived before pollen-feeding-insects.
And that is just one example of how evolution-creationism takes giant leaps of faith to believe in.
Christopher Halliwell
The myths in question are the creation stories that every culture has invented. Now that you better understand the topic of discussion, perhaps you could make a positive contribution to the conversation.
Don Anderson 20+
Christopher Halliwell
If you reply to this message, please remember to stay on topic.
Thanks.
Don Anderson 20+
Science textbooks should not have any creation myth in them, including evolution as a source of creation.
Science textbooks could have a section on common theories of creation and that should include the today’s common religions including Christians, Atheism, Buda, etc.
You question is based on the premise that public schools currently don’t teach a creation myth and that is based on a premise that creation via evolution is a fact and not a theory. In all questions we need to examine the premises that base the question.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Christopher Halliwell
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
This year in my Cog-Sci class, my professor made a point of noting popular creationist and evolutionist, and their arguments for their respective positions and counter-positions.
I am one to note the 'neoatheist' trend which is rising in this nation, let alone world. This trend, movement or what have you - is an unconscious paradigm (I have no other way to phrase it).
The 'atheist beliefs' are the foundation for the arguments. The Four Horsemen of New Age Atheism, anyone? All writers and scholars and SCIENTIST who write with these predisposed attitudes towards fundamentalism, and namely (more specifically) Judea-extremism.
The word 'religion' may get a lot of you atheist uptight, but let me assure you - the way most of you will define religion is not universal, but usually only involves the Abrahamics. Religion is also defined as the relationship with God - atheism is basically saying "I am God" - the difference between the alpha and omega, the creator of reality.... Why call this God? Because this momentary thinking is 'Godly' - the difference between true understanding and falsehoods - the kingdom of heave or hell.
Indeed, all of you Atheist believe religion is irrational. However, with developed studies of cog psych, research in cog psych of religion are able to determine moments where a fundamentalist FEELS 'God' is achieved by those who are profound disbelievers of God. This state of mind (God-feeling) is in all of us. How we all activate is dependent on our belief systems.
Neoatheism IS a disorganized religion today, it just looks more like a movement. It is not 'bad' per say, but it is bad when those who claim 'atheism' do not realize they are being religious to a degree.
At the point atheist go to meetings once a week, is the day when we realize religion is not the enemy. Fundamentalism, and namely extremism are the potential enemy...
Don believes evolution is in 'myth' form, and very much it is, as it is a theory and fact.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Just a human, homo sapian, a mammal that breast fed as a children, a primate with an amazing brain and consciousness.
You might consider being careful not top assume you know what "all of you" anythings believe.
Maybe follow your own advice. You claim all atheists define religion in regards to the Abrahamic religions. I don't. It's just most the theists we bump into in the West are Christians.
Why isn't it irrational to believe your subjective cultural or experiential interpretation of a psychological experience is the correct one and all the other contradictory interpretations from similar experiences are wrong?
Don't we know enough about the brain to know how so called religious experiences are brain activity leveraging different cognitive mechanisms. We you meditate or pray and feel that connection MRI's show the brain at work. Now we can not tell if there is some supernatural connection. but we know there is a natural mechanism at play. Denying the experiences is irrational. Assuming a supernatural dimension or particular religious interpretation of these experiences is also irrational.
Atheists meeting up doesn't make it a religion. Are there atheist groups yes. Humans are social and meet for all sorts of reasons. I suggest sports fans are more religious than most atheists.
I agree Buddhism and perhaps Confucionism have fulfilled a religious role in many societies with out gods. I would consider them a type or religion or something close to it.
Not having a theist belief is a long way from being a religion even if some gather together. Are political parties religions? Are Justin Beiber fans part of a religion?
No argument that there are some group dynamics at play with some atheists. But you need more than group dynamics to call something a religion.
How do you define religion in a way that having no theist beliefs is a religion?
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
You may not want to say your 'God' but you want me to prove things to you? And not in generalities? Because what I am saying conflicts with what you belief, that cause problems, no? Why? Because a feeling of discomfort... I would go as far to assume that discomfort can be comparable to a Christian when someone says "God is bullshit"... You think/thought you have a grasp even on your own thoughts, but are unaware of how determined your thinking is..
Atheism has done some harm to developing cultures. While the ideas used to be counter-Judea have backfired. Beliefs, religion, supernatural... These are ideas which are ANCIENT to give no benefit to their usage is ignorant. And many are guilty of saying "I have no beliefs" "religion is evil" "supernatural thoughts are wasteful" - without even entertaining the thought, NOW THAT IS PLAYING GOD - to be so arrogant as to not even think about the contradictory thought.
I would go as far to say every human being has these feelings of being God. However, for those who believe in a creator/omni-being ... well they can achieve those feelings in more ways than someone who does not. However, all feelings - yet, these feelings do come back to a God-idea.
Do I seem to at any point be campaigning a specific religion? No. I am dictating that religion is a natural condition to human beings, and as long as there are groups who keep denying such a reality with their belief systems... We are not going to progress as well..
Indeed, because sport fans talk about God and ethics and knowledge - smart comparison...
All we know, as of now, in cog studies is we do have this drive to know metaphysical questions... one of those questions is an original creator, it's a natural mechanism to question such ideas of the above. Take my word for it, and if you don't cog psych of religion, have a blast learning something anti-atheism movement.
Religion is both personal and social
Obey No1kinobe 50+
People who don't have god beliefs are just as diverse as those who do.
Do you realise you are stereotyping and generalising in the extreme
I guess we disagree and agree on a lot of things. I'm not sure why you think I feel uncomfortable.
I have beliefs.
Did I say religion is evil? Don't put words in my mouth.
Did I say you were campaigning for a specific religion?
Did I say God is bullshit? Don't put words in my mouth.
When you get on a bit further in your cog studies you might take more care in jumping to conclusions, projecting your generalisations onto to people with limited data, to making a diagnosis with no data etc.
Also, from a debate perspective you have gone ad hominem, rather than deal with my points.
Buddhist meditation, atheist meditation does not come back to a god idea.
I agree that religious or supernatural type beliefs seems to reflect our cognitive make up. We seem inclined to assume agency, we hallucinate and jump to intuitive conclusions etc.
We search for meaning and understanding and build belief systems about how the universe works. Just some are supported by more evidence than others. We worry about dying. And we have language ability to pass on knowledge and culture from one general to the next.
I'm also all for freedom of religion. Not only do I think people should have this right, it also provides a space for non religious people.
I also understand how strongly religious belief can become part of a persons identity.
I'm not sure what your anti atheist stereotype rant has to do with the topic.
Do you support the separation of church and state?
Can all the different religious beliefs be correct?
Is the susceptibility of humans to be religious or have supernatural beliefs proof of gods?
Is the prevalence of religious beliefs a reason to include creationism in science class?
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
I admit my hostility here is high. Yet, the minority here is creationism, and for this word to even have any value you have to understand there are a great number of minds behind this movement of information.
Consider saying "no" to the future Buddhist researcher who wants to sell a meditation session procedure + brain 'zap' = in order to alter our minds into transcendence, arguablely, unnaturally.
Why would you say no to such amazing knowledge....? (Same mindset as the fundamentalist of any religion, but not as good of an example..) However, if anything you respond to said answer becomes projected as hostile in the negation of their absolute ideologies... Dilemmas occur.
Let me put my thoughts in another way...
Early Creationism of the American Funda. Christian Movements (working title) - would actually drive the scientific community into a huge theologian 'conflict of conditionals' - but, ultimately - Evolutionism would actually grow stronger as movement of thought within scientific communities. Paradigms in every field of scientific study would be reflective of evolutionary studies - biology majorly of course. Mr. Dawkins would inspire a new generation of irreligious thoughts.
Now, ignoring most of your questions...
Controversy can do so much more for objective knowledge, than believing there are absolutes. Understanding both sides of the argument better prepares you to support yours with their knowledge. Creationist make arguments for microevolution all the time. They will not reject facts, just merely alter their interpretation. But life is all about interpretations through perspectives. That's where my mind is at while we continue debating.
We are talking education. Not epistemology or virtues of scientific exploration. Education comes first, and foremost. In this debate, for me.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
2. God is an ancient idea, not going away, expanding it in school would be devastating for future generation of fundamental Christianity. Christianity of course never going away - but, will evolve and grow with facts and truths which are unchangeable by efforts of research through passionate and dedicated, philosophers and scientist. Expand any thought, it will blow up with more questions.
3. Again, Never meant to put words, I was generalizing - but your arguments for "science" are indicative from all of the above... your background of knowledge foundational for learning... Your thought paradigm... We have argued before, it has taken a lot of dialogue for you to open up as more than an atheist - although you keep labeling thoughts as such. Even indirectly. "Science" this "science" that - these are attitudes of this movement.
4. Again, semantics...
Indeed, 'peak experience' 'enlightenment' 'satori' - these ideas/conditions are not necessary of "God" in any sense or even usage of the phrase. You're right, absolutely, but at the same EXACT time. More people will understand the idea of 'satori', in the West, with ideas of God attached. Religious Knowledge - Epistemology.
5. We are God my brother. You and I. Without us, there is no beginning nor end. All powerful with imagination
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
7. I never attack person or character. I attacked your thoughts. Ignorance does not reflect personality - only knowledge/intelligence. The word ignorance has terrible taboo - but, the idea one receives from another as having something more of 'knowledge' seems personal at times. Not my intention. My intention was to insight such an open response and multiplicity, I think I got that.
We should exchange more info Obey! You have always been the Aristotle to my Socratic thinking.
8. Yes... To be a fair society, to be ubermen, to be better than who we ARE - we must always allow majority to rule. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... What keeps the majority distracted from ruling is minority thinking. Although NEEDED and REQUIRED for a society to be virtuous, minority should work with the majority... And attacking core beliefs, seems to be an issue with transferring data between humans.
9. It is not a question of creationism, itself. It is a question of education. To deny information which can be relative to other, better information... Never a bad thing.
10. Fear... May be why people do not want creationism taught in science. Without evolutionism, there would be no creationism and vice versa. It is all giant conflicts of science... More conflicts like that are good.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
We actually agree in some aspects, but are perhaps talking about slightly different things.
I agree religious beliefs and other values will inform humans who govern us. For me secular government is about government not forcing these views on the people.
So forcing atheists and politheists to say one nation under god crosses the line.
Using government land or resources for just one religion crosses the line.
You can't stop people voting with their conscience, but using government resources to support or favour religion crosses a line we can protect.
Suggest the best democracies to live in protect minority rights.
Didn't Aristotle get in trouble for not honouring the gods. And anger Alexander for criticising his claims of divinity. Happy to be associated with him.
Now I understand some of your comments. They are based on previous discussions. I may have slightly softened my approach and outlook.
One thing that stood out for is using controversy as a enough of a reason to teach something in science class. We may just have to agree to disagree on this issue.
If science found good evidence we were designed, I'd accept that. Although I'd probably assume aliens most likely unless we found evidence of a creator god. But the most popular definitions these days seem to be for something outside time and space, immaterial etc whatever that means. To me its a bit like describing something that you can not detect because it doesn't actually exist. What is the spirit realm. What reliable information do we have that it exists as more than a concept. Oops off topic. Don't answer.
Also, seems fair to assume the burden of proof is on the theist, not the non believer.
Christopher Halliwell
I hope you take the time to learn about the people you ignorantly condemn.
Xavier Belvemont 30+
People are entitled to their own beliefs but not their own facts, and when they say 'religion', they don't mean ALL religion, they mean THEIR religion specifically, I really do doubt the Gita would make an appearance if they were given the option..
Its just not acceptable under any circumstance and it shouldn't even be up for discussion. If a person doesn't like their beliefs being scientifically incorrect, then don't have scientifically incorrect beliefs, trying to compromise facts to get around their issue shouldn't be an option
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
If Christians be allowed their theories taught, every large religious community should have theirs taught - scientology, mormonism, hinduism, jainism, etc etc etc
Don't you think at some point children will realize for themselves what is most likely true?
Gordon Barker 10+
JUST DON'T DO IT IN A SCIENCE CLASS.
Paul Redling
But science, especially for younger children, is and always has been taken as gospel (yes, I recognize the irony). Including other creation stories that have been disproven is not only dangerous to the children's mental development, it is unscientific. It's like doing algebra in Music Appreciation or something. I wouldn't mind adding the christian creation story to the curriculum of public schools, as long as it went alongside other creation stories, and stayed OUT of science class.
Christopher Halliwell
Alan Russell
Christopher Halliwell
You may have put faith in science, but I do not. My confidence and trust in any specific theory is a direct result of my understanding of the evidence presented for it. If I am not convinced, then I have no right to say I believe based on faith or any other ridiculous reason that some people give for their beliefs.
Allan Macdougall 30+
Once we are able to throw more light into that darkness and things becomes more certain, it can then move from the Mythology class, through the philosophy classes and into the Science class. Education generally should reflect the way we think and neither science or mythology should be dismissed as one without the other - but they do have their correct place.
The problem arises when we get too entrenched in mythology and unwilling to move on to accept the facts that arise from it.
Zdenek Smith 100+
Why myths and metaphors rather than reason and logic should be first stage of a thinking process?
"Once we are able to throw more light into that darkness and things becomes more certain"
Science goal is to throw more light into any "darkness". I see myths to be quite the opposite, creating false views and creating confusion with unreal tales and stories.
"Education generally should reflect the way we think and neither science or mythology should be dismissed as one without the other - but they do have their correct place."
So which myths, religious beliefs, mystic, supernatural, psychic beliefs will you teach and can anyone make up their own beliefs? How will you deal with opposite beliefs that contradict science and each other? Wouldn't this lead to a chaos?
Allan Macdougall 30+
Mythology is just metaphor with the volume turned up. It helped the ancients to perceive something in the absence of science to clearly define it.
As intuition is an evolved function of the human brain, I am personally loath to dismiss it, or indeed any closely related function that helps the intuitive process - like metaphor.
Sometimes metaphor can be much more powerful in solidifying one's perceptions of 'definition' within chaotic or complex entities. As an example, I am more likely to find the red-giant Betelgeuse in the night sky because I know it is situated in the constellation Orion; I know where to look, because the ancient mythological image of a warrior's belt and sword in the stars, leads me to it.
If Betelgeuse blows into supernova within my lifetime and I see a bright light coming somewhere from the direction of Orion, I'll know exactly what it is - because ancient mythology has guided my perceptions through to spectacular science and astrophysics.
Zdenek Smith 100+
"Mythology is just metaphor with the volume turned up. It helped the ancients to perceive something in the absence of science to clearly define it."
Yes I agree and I think it is a good subject in the history class but not in the science class?
"Sometimes metaphor can be much more powerful in solidifying one's perceptions of 'definition' within chaotic or complex entities."
It's good to use metaphors and I don't think anyone objects in using them. However mythology is not scientific and again it should be kept in history or philosophy classes, not science classes. The purpose of basic education is to allow kids to understand how our society and world works without being drawn into thousand contradicting beliefs of their parents and communities?
cheers
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Random Chance 30+
Teaching some of this might be okay as long as it is duly taught and noted,
that virtually everything religion claimed was true as the "science of the age"
has been proven false by the more successful and provable sciences themselves.
Both stress there is more than the material.
Science admits they cannot prove it.
Religion claims what the "more than the material" is, without proof.
And, refuses to budge.
In science textbooks and classes? Absolutely not.
Mark Kurtz 10+
It is not right for people to demand others accept their beliefs. Religious affiliation is OK for individuals, but to demand others give up their will and become subservient to a doctrine is not a concept Jesus taught his followers, a group identity later to become known as Christian. Neither should scientists demand of believers of any doctrine or theology to give up their experiences.
Let science attempt to explain the beginnings of material reality! Science has this invitation to do so. Let people search for truth through philosophic exploration of the scientific unknown details of possible realities. There is no need for man to fight over these things. Let man have his beliefs.
What matters most is our relationships with one another! We can be civil and loving and that is the pathway to peace---real peace. There are other details on this pathway. Putting others down is not a scientific requirement nor is it a core belief of Christians or others.
Grace Greene 10+