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After learning a language -Why can't anyone go back and narrate what and how one experienced during the first year?

It will be interesting to explore the reasons that fill the "gap of inability" between the most efficient language learning phase and "culture bound listening phase" as Patricia says . After learning a language what prevents one to go back and bring insights, describe from that efficient learning phase in one's life. Being convinced that these insights / description once known will be objectively measurable as well. It seems the challenge in using MEG has a bias. Thus - what are those factors that prevent one to go back and recall the baby experiences while a language gets learnt - it may add new vocabulary or use existing words in a new perspective to share with others.

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Closing Statement from Charan Singh

Thank you all - the spectrum of responses - from Ed Schulte, Natasha Nikulina, Casey to Adriaan Braam- brought amazing insights on this theme. My question and replies were driven by the knowledge I acquired through some, available to humanity, core sources of Wisdom that are little explored - though seems extremely beneficial for solving our current problems. The reason to ask this question was to further explore and find equivalent knowledge terms that can be commonly understood by all. Must say I tried exploring ,not missing even a small reference about " The Word" and how little we know about The Word that manifests through language as our World. Interestingly, I learnt about a Oneness frequency C132/A 432 Hrz that further led me to a great related article link http://www.jwmt.org/v1n4/readlight.html and another book title: P.D.Ouspensky - The Fourth Way, that accepts and addresses to the question asked here " why one doesn't remember and how can one develop that memory that remembers everything " Present day Science or pedagogy - sorry to state, addresses or knows only about two dimensions of that memory that inherits the potential to be developed into four. It is not about religion or faith or worshiping - it is purely about the knowledge accessible to mankind that can be gained through - easy to make observations, experiments not subjective experiences, comparisons, analysis - and using all other tools a scientific mind would use or prefer to use.

I remain indebted to all who participated and shared their valuable inputs on this thread. Thank you.

  • Mar 15 2013: Charan

    I think if you go to the archives of Scientific American you will find a wealth of speech-sound-vibration relating to early cognition. I note that this is closing but If I have time before then I will pull a few.

    There were several I recall where the scientists were surprised - pleased relating to the Love connection...for example

    They set-up an experiment on 3 to 6 moth olds ...to say "daddy" and the father would come out from behind a closed door. The little ones caught on to the game quickly and took it further....they would practice quietly to themselves by hummming and singing "Daaadie" to themselves first to make the sound more loving and appealing.

    This was another indication that before 'words' arose ...the common communication of HUman was singing ..as a mention before ...re Circaisans ....all part of what Avicenna ( that other post that I placed the other day ) was toying with ...Archetypal Man...the "pattern" which a small small ray of ourself is projected through and becomes lower form ...which can send and receive vibration ....still in the realm of Love/Lovingly ..which are at a far far lower energy level then our source level.

    Then the closer we come back to that source ...we are also capable of recalling all previous experiences ( including languages) obtained during each projections through the HUman Archetype ( think of it as a filter of sorts) which was the reason for HUmans having this aspect in the first place. Plotinus said "there is an emanating out, and there is a returning to" and that is what he was referring to.

    Great great damage occurs when such organization such as religions mis-interpt and twist around ancient statements such as "In the beginning was the word" ...a phrase in Ancient Greek ....with was actually "in the beginning was the authority ( or logos )"

    But that too will be recalled and corrected eventually

    Be Well Be Present
    • Mar 15 2013: @Ed - That will be a great resource. Thanks alot. I agree the opportunists twist be it Science or Religions - and I often wonder - How can they do that and why do they do that - answers seems the are meant to perform like that least everyone can stay connected with the Source !! Tug of war of distortions - correction thus continues and dynamics getting generated ;) Please share some more on " "in the beginning was the authority ( or logos )" "as per your convenience ... Thanks
      • Mar 15 2013: John opened his Gospel :

        “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”

        In the original Greek manuscript, the word for Word was the Greek word Logos, which means much more than “word.” The Logos is defined by philosophers and theologians as the rational principle that governs and develops the universe.
        So, Lodos goes nowhere, it's here all around in Nature.
        • Mar 15 2013: Many thanks Natashaa !! Great connections !! Luv u all around
      • Mar 15 2013: Actually it would be more correct to say :
        ....Logos is all around in Nature hence within.
        See you around ! :)
        Thank you !
  • Mar 14 2013: I think "going back to describe" one would be overwhelmed. As language captures just a single dimension of initial perceived total communication. A child might interpret in a relationship with mother via Eye-box reading; expressions that reveal much so along with intimacy far more fascinating textures and nuance occur than the new structured vocal method. And so leaving out the wholeness of emotion for mathematical frameworks may seem to be a great loss. These words make normalcy eventually yet at first blush in year one not. Leaving the mothers intimate connecting closeness behind, it would be a natural extension to assume all comm would resemble a hugging close loving up in your face interaction with everybody, wouldn't that be something to see adults doing, I suppose making love is the closes we come to it.
    • Mar 14 2013: "making love is the closes we come to it"- Great Inputs !! Though it seems we may be regularly irregular in keeping that closeness intact. ...that seems the reason to explore this theme also to find how can that love connection/ thread remain all the time- reflected/practiced in thoughts -speech-action. Becoming aware of that thread, researching about that thread may help.
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      Mar 14 2013: @ Philip I thought we called that the 60's
    • Mar 15 2013: I love how you picked up on this! As a child, before learning the twists and intimacies of verbal language, communication breaks down to the simplest forms: emotions and attitudes. When a mother sings to her newborn child, the child doesn't understand if the mother is talking about sweet dreams, or a comedic perverted song about something else entirely... only the tone, the affection, and the intent are carried forward. I fear that now that we have been polluted (in a way) by language, it is difficult to return to pure physical communication – much like a city person returning to tribal living in the distant reaches of nature. (Note I do not mean polluted in a strictly negative sense... much good does come of it.)

      On another note, I find that quick exchanges with the young, be it a look, a smile, laugh, or whatever else, are often the most interesting ones that we can have to a stranger. Often I see my smile return a smile from an infant, hopefully a strange face can even bring a giggle. Only rarely can such simple actions be exchanged with other grown individuals, for decades of talk and bad influences have made us distrustful of complete strangers. Mostly, I believe the beauty in those first years comes from the total ability to forgive another, and look upon anyone with an open heart.
  • Mar 13 2013: basically there are 2 sections of your brain. one part thinks, the other is automatic. when you read a book or do any other single activity, your thinking section is used and so you can recall the story. however, when learning a skill such as catching a ball, your thinking brain will pass the information over to the automatic section over time, so that eventually you'll be able to catch a ball without thinking about moving. this also means that you won't be able to describe which muscles you moved to catch the ball and in what order, because your automatic section did it all for you, and similarly you weren't aware of when and how your automatic section got the hang of this ability. the same goes with language, unless you learn by the grammar-translation method, which keeps everything in your thinking brain, but that also means you will never be competent with the language.
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      Mar 13 2013: Thinking is actually a how body experience, your cells think, it the communication that you get from your cells that tells you(brain) what to do and what to think. The brain most certainly could be seen as the processor or translator. Think about reflexes, do you think when you put you hand on something hot? Of course you do you are actual using the same part of the brain that tennis plays use to hit a tennis ball. The cool think about tennis players is they dont actual "see" with their eyes when the hit the ball simply because the ball it move to fast for our eye to catch
      • Mar 13 2013: you've misunderstood there. and also you might try reading about what i said anyway, it's very interesting.
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          Mar 14 2013: Yes I am sorry, very good information. It actually a gland in the brain that does "automatic" think and its not really "automatic" it just faster way of processing information. So your brain function at level x in every day life. But if we try to use this gland to think with instead of just our "brain" one could drive with out "seeing" because your whole body would be functioning at this higher level.....in theory it would be much like have spider senses, because your body would be thinking by "feeling" instead of reaction thinking
      • Mar 15 2013: kinda but it's not that black and white. it's not a higher level either it's just a different one, it works faster because thinking isn't needed. an analogy is say you go to a cafe every morning and you order your favourite brew. every day they ask you what would you like and you order the same, so eventually they get used to it and you just have to show up and they hand you your coffee without you having to order it - you're not on a "higher level" of communication or anything. you wouldn't be able to drive without seeing because your brain still needs that sensory input to know what to do and when, all that happens is the processes that you used to have to consciously think about when you were learning to drive become 'automatic'.
    • Mar 14 2013: @Ben - that seems very interesting . Do you mean the feeding of language pieces make the auto mode brain a to perform with out thinking.
      • Mar 14 2013: yeah i guess you could call it reflex action, though not just for completing an action, it can be for whole actions, such as when a car is coming toward you you swerve out of the way without having to think "wow i'd better turn the steering wheel in order to avoid this crash", or for parts of an action, such as when you you want a drink you think about taking a drink but you don't think about reaching for the grasp and grasping it because that is taken care of in the automatic section of your brain.

        language works in the same way. for example the japanese learners i teach when the start, see a tree and think 'ki' (japanese for tree) which they then translate into 'tree', then at some point they no longer to use the intermediate step because they automatically think 'tree' in english when they see one.
        • Mar 14 2013: Thanks Ben. information highway where L1 helps in L2 learning is okay , however, how L0 connects L1 - (L0 -the time when as a child one only wonders, getting language more visually or through touch /luv and so on?)
      • Mar 15 2013: that's a very good follow up question! actually i looked into this in depth some years ago while trying to work out what the best ways to help the most students learn most easily were. the largest pathways to the brain by far are the visual ones (something like 16 times the data volume of the ears and everything else combined), though the learning environment has to be suitable to allow to children to learn from what they are seeing. very young children of course learn by listening but that's not all, they also look intently at parents' mouths.
  • Mar 4 2013: Hi nn!!

    Re: "Are there any distinction between Beauty Love God Logos Truth ? We have different words , but neither of these are defined, for it is not possible to language it. "

    No distinction when in the Absolute sense ....and there in lies the key ....in the Absolute there is no "languaging" or "wording" required. And you are on track when you say languages/words are required by the "Observing" consciousness to express itself.

    Now lets return back to Charan's opener and his quote of Patricia saying "After learning a language what prevents one to go back and bring insights, describe from that efficient learning phase in one's life. "

    The specifics of the question is "what prevents on from going back" and the answer ....now that you have brought in that key pointer ...is the "Lack" of Love. The trade off for acceptance in the material / word driven / world is to disassociate from Love and get...material.......fame....power.....etc etc as the substitute.
    • Mar 4 2013: Hi Ed ! Natasha - Please also join me on the following thread that might interest you as well -

      http://www.ted.com/conversations/16796/what_is_the_opposite_of_idea.html

      Thanks !!
    • Mar 4 2013: Thanks Ed !! "it is not possible to language it" yet the language is of "Love" - which needs to be identified - that connects one's phase1- before learning language into phase 2- learning language and what was before the phase1 even. These three phases with the One that connects these three seems the least explored dimension, inadequately represented in current pedagogy thus remains a solution without everyone exploring it equally well. Just to clarify - religion/ God/ worship starts after being introduced to a child after first year of learning languages and starting search for meanings. This seems Pure form in itself.
      • Mar 4 2013: Charan

        yes but don't forget there is that which the HUman brings in with it ..apriori ....from it previous incarantions ...which carry spiritual "inclanations" and set the tone for the current incarnations "tasks"

        Refering to Kuhl's talk specifically...it is scarry how she is delighting in here hopes to discover ...by scoping the childs brain ( head region only) for the ultiate answer ...when it is right there ...in the Beautiful eyes of the child strapped in the machine!!!

        Kuhl reminds me of my grade one scholl teacher with a voice out of a tight lornax area...very fearfull!!!
        • Mar 5 2013: Her voice sounds scary, indeed ! :)
        • Mar 6 2013: ;) I agree Ed and Nn - I remember some of my school teachers in a similar intimidating or mockery styles. Over 7 billions of us don't need a machine to go back and recall how one may have experienced !! the challenge seems in barrier through current pedagogy seems to discourage " Inquiry into the Being and that too using Dialogical approach" !! "previous incarnations " theme doesn't fascinate me - Now is the moment to explore to purposefully spent Now seems the purpose
  • Feb 21 2013: ." Why can't anyone go back and narrate... ? "

    Language is a tool of structuring the world of our experience - Time. It suggests that our sense of time must depend critically upon language. A baby is out of language and out of time. In zero time zone nothing is happening in sequence, so neither narrative nor memory storage is possible.

    The good news is : we never leave ' no time ' zone :)
    • Feb 21 2013: "The universe is organised as a living organism.The motion ' in- out' ' enfolding- unfolding ' can be traced anywhere.
      A new born baby is in the closest position to 1, which is entangled to zero, and with a first breath the mental metabolism starts : 1 is on the way to become 'many' due to the brain capacity to make recognisable patterns out of the 'external' world that can be stored in memory, which is the content of the 'internal ' world.
      Maybe i don't remember my babyhood, because the reality as i know it, organized in recognizable patterns, described via language was not there yet
      I take reality IN, process It through ' me' and get it OUT. The next cycle : the reality which i take IN has ' me' in it,....it's how we co create reality." -

      "so neither narrative nor memory storage is possible"
      ++++++++++++++++

      @Natasha- Please see when there was no brain - It seems , Memory and Intelligence was there - Who made the decisions /processed information that finally resolved the critical issue of - What part will be made out of the next cell produced? Whether the next cell produced will become a cell in the kidney or Brain or heart... So it seems If IT is ME alone , just as a product of Outside World and comes in time and space , learns and stores a language structure OR Some part of Me that has traveled - before time , into the time that eventually is Past-Present-Future confined. Why cant I recall that Me that has established before Time- Scientists ( Patricia in her talk) agrees that this ME is most versatile, powerful learning - and this learning ability continues to diminish as Me experiences in Time and Space.

      You have very rightly summed up "The motion ' in- out' ' enfolding- unfolding ' can be traced anywhere." thanks for sharing. Thus Outside World that Me Learns from is not different than Me individually experiencing. What CONNECTS these two- individual and Outside
      • Feb 21 2013: Yes :)

        It's the nature of language - ambiguity , we may have similar answer , but i don't know what you mean by your question.
        I added 1/2 min later after posting ( the comment above ) :
        "The good news is : we never leave ' no time ' zone "
        For a technical reason it is not here yet ; by that i tried to tell what you are telling me now :)

        What is Dao ?
        .
        • Feb 21 2013: What connects these two , one of which is - individual level: so breathe in , breathe out, pause - and as you said , second level is the universe around this individual in -out, folding-unfolding. How these two are connected. Again in agreement - we are in no time 'zone' yet how we forget that and sleep at night !! Why can't we remain awake all the time or sleep all the time!! What is that connects us into Time yet in no time zone ? Dao / Buddhism/ Christianity - instead let us first take Universal concepts - such as breath, irrespective of superiority / inferiority of any religion- all breath, similarly Time , experience as a child- forgetting / amnesia - focussing on these should equally explain the factors that prevent us from going in that state of exceptional knowledge learning readiness. ;)
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        Feb 21 2013: If the Dao is what you are looking for, this is the answer that we came up with on how to answer questions to be believed as truth.

        Does this make common sense to you?

        The interesting things is, is if I had to answer my own question. This is how I would answer it:

        What would Jesus do?
        He would try to relate to the person, whether from his personal experiences or from someone else’s experiences/knowledge (parable). And respond with knowledge/wisdom that he would want to hear if it was he who came to them for help.
        That’s what Jesus would do.
        Do on to others as you would have them do on to you.
        If you imply this concept to the most fundamental parts of life you would have intuition.

        The hardest part about this is how do you relate to a person so it comes off as if the knowledge is from them selves. This is why is hard to do the "do unto others as you would have then do unto you" The answer has to be common sense. Not to the person (in this case Jesus) but to the other. It has to be their common sense not his.

        "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, who said it, no matter if I said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." ~ Siddhartha Gautama, founder of Buddhism

        But the best thing is, is that I had to start this conversation to know that. That it has to be common sense to other, to be seen as truth from their perspective
        • Feb 21 2013: What is the most common denominator amongst over 7 billions of us ? I suggest - we all Breathe, before any other thing else come on the scene.
        • Feb 22 2013: "But this material world is a trick of the eye and its our belief/faith in them that make it real "
          Casey Christofaris.

          You are right ! :)
        • Feb 22 2013: I don't know how to prove the answer and frankly , i don't care. I have nothing to prove. But i think, i know how understanding may take place : resonance. You have a picture in your mind and you have a description of another person mind's picture. If it resonates with yours, you can recognize it, and here is YES !
          A ' picture ' has some relevance to LOGOS , it's what you can see and quite often can't tell.

          Thanks for the ' flipping' image, you helped me to see : )
        • Feb 22 2013: "But this material world is a trick of the eye and its our belief/faith in them that make it real "
          @Casey Christofaris.You are right ! :) @Natasha !! - I disagree Science/Technology / NeuroSciences, are not tricks of eye !
        • Feb 22 2013: Charan !
          Re : I disagree Science/Technology / NeuroSciences, are not tricks of eye !

          As always right/wrong :)
          The Q. Physics revelation : the measurement problem. The tool to measure, the one who measures, what is measured IS ONE. While measured, the initial substance is not as it was before measuring and the whole system, including the tool and the 'measurer' is changed by the very act of measuring. ( in my layman language :) )
          The pre QM science is based on the doctrine of separation of the world into out there and in here. It implies, that world/eternal laws of nature are there and wait to be discovered.
          What if they are changing/reshaping on the way ?
          In this case Science/Technology / NeuroSciences is true/objective, because science as explanatory system makes them such.
          Weird ? Agreed !
          Please, listen to this talk, you may find this idea ,not that weird :)
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4-9l8IWFQ
        • Feb 22 2013: Sorry, i realised that dug too deep :)
          Actually what Casey meant by "-- " was obviously true in the context of our conv.
          I said that i found the proofs of oneness everywhere and what i quoted was his response.
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        Feb 21 2013: So let me see if I can use logic and reason to show you how you need to use their logic and reason. To not prove them wrong but to show them that there is other truth. So you can pick any topic you want and any side of the said topic and I will debate the other side. See to get someone to believe what you say is truth you first have to understand their side as truth as well. Not that it wrong and it clearly might be(like anyone who would say oil is not toxic).

        It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle. ~ Sun Tzu Art of War

        Now it doesn't matter how the argument is going once I figure out how you came to your knowledge of truth I can figure out your thought "pattern" or common sense. Once I understand that I can use your common sense thats right your common sense to prove my information as truth. Not as I am right your wrong but just that there is other truth. Edited: I dont even need to believe that what I am trying to debate is truth or not, I just need to except that it can be

        And as far as Sub, object question go. I like to say that it's not that I think inside the box or outside of the box. I realize that its all box's and I try to think in all of them.
      • Feb 22 2013: 'individual' is only possible if it unfolds from wholeness. What is the 'Whole ' ? In QM interpretation : each process of the Whole is the Whole.
        So, you are the Whole.

        " How these two are connected ? "

        The question implies separation. We can answer this question, if the very question disappears.
        NO separation.
        What can it mean for us ?
        -What you as individual do think feel...experience matters. It's all that IS.

        Why can't we remember .... ?
        To come to conscious realizing of what we forget by the act of birth, separation.

        Thoughts...:)
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    Feb 20 2013: Now as Natasha Nikulina has pointed to the image is 0 or a circle or a ring or a torus. When this image is spun/flipped fast enough it looks like a complete sphere or a “ghostly” sphere however when it is slowed down to a relative position it creates a straight line or 1. As we mentioned earlier any ray of light (a straight line) sent out will eventually return to its origin thus completing the circle.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOgByd-EZ34
    What makes humans so amazing is that we are both the light and the dark/shadow moving as independent self-reflecting/complete circle entities happening at the smallest/slowest movement/vibration/fractal.
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    Feb 20 2013: From my understanding we are born in ignorance, oddly enough when people say ignorance is bliss I don’t think they mean the ignorance of a new born baby. That is basically saying that we are born with zero axioms for reference or zero relativity. If we are all the same and are one this would be the only way to gain further knowledge of the world around us. The environment that we are raised in (set and setting) we gain references points of our surrounding to help form and understand the reality that is unfolding in front of us. The interesting thing is that since we are all one and we are connected through consciousness information that we may have never learned in this life time is still inside of us. See these coma victims who wake up with weird attributes one of which able to speak a foreign language they never learned.
    http://www.oddee.com/item_97859.aspx
    This guy hits his head and can now play the piano like Mozart. He says that he sees a pattern in his head/eyes that allows him to play as well as he does.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/acquired-savant-derek-amato-musical-prodigy-hitting-head-hard-diving-shallow-pool-article-1.1091812
    This information is innately (however amnesia/zero relativity is at birth) in them and through our parents teaching us which patterns to follow or not follow. What’s up or down? Oddly enough this is all arbitrary, what we have been discovering is circles.
    Well I would trust that the Dean is educated enough to understand Einstein's point that any ray of light ( a straight line ) send out will eventually return to its origin and therefore he would understand that there are no "straight lines" ~Ed Schulte
    • Feb 21 2013: Maybe ignorance of a new born baby is knowing.
      " I have always been regretting that I was not as wise as the day I was born."
      ( i think it's David Thoreau, but i am not sure ) We were born different in many ways, yes, but ' knowing' is knowing :) It is the same.
      Knowledge is knowing about; knowing without knowledge about knowing is zero, it's the same.
  • Feb 19 2013: Hi, Charan !

    Mentally we can't enter the territory we can't language. I think , that's why we can't remember ...
    Here how i think it goes :
    Baby is looking at a tree, not knowing that it is a tree; baby has no name for it neither for himself . It's a working definition for meditation. Then mommy comes into the picture and says ; it's a tree, baby... tree, tree..
    It is repeated many times, while baby is growing until the baby stops watching/experience/exploring the tree, for he knows at the first glance : it's a tree. 'Tree' starts to exist in abstract , as a word.
    And we can't go back to the flow of unnamed reality.
    I think we, adults, after learning a language should try to do the reverse: watch the tree as if you see it for the first time, with attention and care, as if it is a marvel... relate to it...like a baby.
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    Feb 16 2013: I just read something in which Oliver Sacks recounted interviewing/testing a child who had not been able to learn language until unusually late. What Sacks found was that, without language: "X saw, distinguished, categorized, used... but could not, it seemed, go much beyond this, hold abstract ideas in mind, reflect, play, plan. He seemed completely literal, unable to juggle images or hypotheses or possibilities, unable to enter an imaginative or figurative realm. He seemed to be stuck in the present, to be confined to literal and immediate perception."

    This suggests that, in the absense of language, such insights don't arise.

    Further, memory is, I believe, based on being able to connect experiences to a sort of structure, which might effectively be absent until language becomes a tool for the internal narrative.
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      Feb 16 2013: Interesting thought that could be tested with babies without the sense of hear. Gesturing is an early stage of language that would be visual. Memory formation might be limited to the visual in the absence of a language structure.
      Beyond this we can recall that the brain is still developing rapidly in a baby, so it is hard to tell what is working.
      • Mar 8 2013: This was my first thread - wastnt sure how it would work - thus left a general note for all on Feb 20"First !! I bow before the Knowledge/ Intuition/ Wisdom of all of you. Thank you so much for sharing. Pardon me for delays in responding. Looking forward to your continuous participation to help in better learning. Humbly C"


        Please share more on this theme. Thnx
  • Mar 15 2013: Thank you TED community for your insights and participation that immensely helped me in learning and evolving. Please allow me to provide following link to a related discussion.

    http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/3200/can-any-one-experience-the-world-without-a-language-if-yes-to-what-extent-if-n

    Much appreciated.
  • Mar 14 2013: yes thank you charan, a truly great take on this part of my comment so important and maybe lost in values due to thorny social issues with intimacy generally, it also beckons a look into what components truly comprise of love as we define it. Examples are familiarity, need even addiction will qualify for hallmark cards who stand to profit at any definition! lol ..but yes the separating from love in it's clear organic experience in mother child to language shift does warrant exploration if that is what you mean, I think I get you. words are not reflecting all if much right now ironically ..
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    Mar 13 2013: Is language movement/vibration ....would that be described as language? Certainly energy exchange can be seen as language right?
    • Mar 14 2013: Intrinsic Vibration movement - seems the foundation of what may be considered as outwardly spoken language. It will be interesting some one sharing on how energy exchange / transformation takes place. Yes it seems exchange of energy from vibration to sounds.
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        Mar 14 2013: So what you would like to know it "how the universe communicates with us, that produces this reality. How information is exchanged and transmitted using celestial body's, and of course light which actually carry, store, read and writes the information in the universe?
        • Mar 14 2013: First - What is the connection of Vibrant movement with the Alphabets of a language? that one can see/ read, listen, speak and reflect upon easily so on..
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        Mar 14 2013: Well wind vibrate through your vocal cords to make verbal language , and then actually our written language was first pictures not a modern alphabet ... picture which are worth a thousand words
        • Mar 14 2013: In agreement - Chinese pictorial alphabets were inspired by the nature and shapes drawn that likely evolved into Phoenician beginning - a) How these alphabets origined - interestingly we have huge data of Chinese alphabets to match phonetic alphabets b) what and how without the vibratory movement as a foundation / movement through the diaphragm - mere passing of air cant porduce any thing, it seems
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        Mar 14 2013: Everything is movement….everything. The earth wobbles which the mayan knew about, is that language? The earth spins is that language? Then is rotates around the sun, is that language? When the sun shines on the earth the earth actually gives back information. Topography of the celestial bodies could and can be seen as written language with the sun acting like a cd player reading and writing on to the celestial bodies(including self( ever hear of a thing called enlightenment)), could this be seen as written language absolutely. And is most likely how information is stored on a universal level.
        ( "Where does it get mass from?"

        As I understand it, when a wave is observed, it becomes a point; this is how mass is created.~ Chris Kelly )
        Since waves are movement and movement creates mass and language, this just refers back to the idea that mass/language is a external representation of an internal process “a thought/language/lexicon” place holder.
        What would we be holding into place? Existence, why because it is real if it wasn’t that would mean the gods are not real either and they are just as real as the reality that is around. All gods exist if man has put belief or faith into them then they are real. Its man’s/gods belief in other that makes all of this real. Now have things certainly got lost in translation absolutely.
        Ever hear someone say that the room is spinning, well truthfully it is spinning its actually really odd that it does not always feel this way.
        Or if I drop a pen did it fall straight down? Everybody says yes, the guy who asked the questions say no it actually moved x distance to the left. But thats wrong as well because he and we also moved x distance to the left at the same time
        …..On a side note language was created to give man something to complain about ;)

        Humbly Casey
        • Mar 15 2013: @ Casey - Ed, may likely add some interesting resources on Scientific American speech-sound-vibration. It seems we are on the right track ..may find something interesting...It seems thee sound produced from these movement is FOUNDATION to any Language. Thanks Casey for your participation.
        • Mar 15 2013: Maybe language was created to give a man the illusion that he is talking to the other :)
  • Mar 12 2013: You can.
    • Mar 12 2013: Great !! Could you please elaborate how? and related resources too. Thanks
      • Mar 12 2013: I beg your pardon. After re reading your question, I would have to agree with Craig Weiler.
  • Mar 9 2013: Without knowing what MEG is, which puts me at a disadvantage here, I think it's pretty obvious why we would not recall early childhood experiences. The mind and brain are, at that age, not capable of processing the world in the ordered, structured way that the adult brain does. We don't remember not because the memories aren't there, but because they would make very little sense to us. We remember things based on the amount and intensity of the attention that we gave them at the time.

    At a very young age, we give our attention to things in a much different fashion than when we are adults. For example, let us say that a two year old and an adult are standing at the edge of Mirror Lake in Yosemite National Park looking up at Half Dome for the first time: The adult stands in awe of this majestic rock and takes in the wonderful beauty around her. She remembers this beautiful moment for the rest of her life.

    The two year old is equally as fascinated watching a twig with a bug on it float on the water and then just for the heck of it, tries scooping up some mud and throwing it at the bug.

    The child's mind is wandering, not particularly focused and is not looking for any order nor concentrating particularly with an intent to understanding, so the memory formed from this event is not going to be either useful or very accessible as an adult.
    • Mar 9 2013: Interesting !! "Memories ... will make little sense...intensity.. ..attention " this is how I think as one grows fascination vanishes and destroying / mud throwing remains - likely because the thread that connects us back is either broken / forgotten or never explored to keep fresh creativity / enhanced learning capacity intact - just some thoughts to link if one remembers the connection back it is likely to have impact on how one behave ` it seems forgetting child wondering, curious mind, fascinating mind - as adult one may fail to make appropriate decisions
  • Mar 7 2013: An expert witness in one of my cases testified that people are generally unable to recall early childhood events through roughly age three. The trial was too long ago for me to remember the explanation. But here is an article I found that discusses the phenomenon. http://bernard.pitzer.edu/~dmoore/psych199s03articles/EacottMemory.pdf.
    • Mar 8 2013: Thanks for sharing !! great piece. Please allow to explore this little bit on these lines: Everyone of over 7 billion of us have come through the similar phase where our external told us who am I- in terms of assigning a name, a relations - father, mother, sister , friends, relatives , communities, education, and so on making one as an entity in terms of physical, social, economical and several other ways. The point is how appropriate it is to focus/ draw samples from /studying children ( who in a sense are part of the external to us again) or using MEG's or using few selective as case studies to get insight into - to capture insights about such a population. second, what would be a more appropriate methodology to study this gap in the time and space - where one is very competent in terms of acquisition of language hence ideas/concepts and then start the diminishing levels of competences after a phase. Are we not missing something?
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    Mar 4 2013: The key here is the concept of repetition. In a cognitive psych class I'm taking this semester I learn that our brain tends to discard unnecessary information. We tend to retain only those thing what are useful to survival and those that we remember through "repetition". For example, we still remember numbers and letters because we have subconsciously and consciously repeated it to ourself over a billion times and still do. Every operation, every task involving this is a repetition.
    However if we do not access that those particular chunks of memory, then the brain deems it useless and it begins to fade away. Lets take the SAT for example. I learnt so many new words for the SAT. And I dont think I have or will ever use most of these words. Probably ina year from now I wont be able to recall a single one? Maybe if you read it out to me, I might remember because of similarity, maybe i wont.
    Also the general sense of social logic. Socially speaking, if we were go randomly go to say a market and when someone says hi, turn around and scream "go go daaa da" or something, they would think Im crazy! Well so as we become a "part" or society and "grow up" we also learn the language of society. Society has its own set of mutually understood norms of not only behavior, but also of speech. And thus, even though babies remember so many words and they do understand phonetics and grammar, we tend to forget the unused parts of that speech.
    • Mar 6 2013: It seems Repetition is critical in the phase after first year where language piece has been learnt. If repetition was the important in the first year - one would have remembered how and what one did before learning language - the prime question.
      Interesting !! "the brain deems it useless and it begins to fade away" - it seems with the associative memory the faded memory can be recalled as well if one focuses deep. What to do you think?
      As rightly stated - "Societal norms" impose an inability to explore the most efficient learning phase of one's life. Do you agree?
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        Mar 7 2013: Well it could probably be recalled but we will have to have exceptional recall abilities. And we may no always be able to recall because if unused those neurons that access that part of the memory mat no longer exist.
        Now heres a weird paradox. It is said that every time u recall a situation you slightly change your memory of it!
        Think about how that could affect things?
        Yep, societal norms are one of the greatest factors that our learning and memory. Because it influences what we consider to be "important" and what what we consider to be "insignificant".
        • Mar 8 2013: "we will have to have exceptional recall abilities" Excellent -promising -Thanks Sidh, for a moment without learning , going deep into studying neurons - you and I and all of us have come through this phase - how can one go back, how can one have that exceptional ability that - what is external to us -has covered us with? This "weird paradox" as applicable to the acquired knowledge through language - not to the Core competences. Social norms, economic, physical realities, are all part of the external that has defined us- covered us, No problem !! the point seems to be aware of - the covered, and what got covered and how?
  • Mar 4 2013: Hi, Charan !
    Have you listened to this talk ?
    http://www.ted.com/talks/scott_rickard_the_beautiful_math_behind_the_ugliest_music.html
    There is a sense where this talk belongs here, i think. Maybe not.
    The ' ugliest piece of music ' , music without repetition. When i first listened to it i thought that a new born baby could hear the world ( not music but ordinary external sounds ) that way. Its mind doesn't hear recognizable patterns, because there are no patterns in this mind as such. No associations or guesses what could it possibly be that produces sounds and no expectations.
    If you are interested i would recommend to start from 7.44 mark, right from music and then listen to the talk.

    Music reminds me some Jackson Pollock paintings.

    edited

    Actually a baby's organism is its mind, its DNA and it grows towards pre organised pattern ...music.
    Forgetting about ' all-is-music' state. it's like to to fallow one tune, forgetting about the others, but this tune is also the part of the symphony: Uni-verse.
    Music can't be, without a pause. Isn't it Amnesia in our context ?
    • Mar 4 2013: Thanks Natasha !! for sharing this interesting video !! Amazingly Creative !! as per my evolving understanding - not 88 but over 7 billions of us are into the equation of 3 three multiply without duplication - each distinct with yet with a similar cord !! each beautiful with an ugliest, and one creative note - Math or for that matter any language cant precisely make permutation /combination of what is that Infinite yet simply understandable at equation 1x 3 at the base level that expands on Infinity. Instead of finding answer in Infinity backward movement towards the base line might be helpful - that how this questions likely attempts to explore convergence rather than expansion path !! Cheers !
      • Mar 5 2013: We are different due to Amnesia while being always and forever One.
        Imagine you are young , you are old, you have died, you are not yet born ...
        Here is the passage from Hermetic corpus, for me it was a revelation !

        "... If then you do not make yourself equal to god , you cannot apprehend god. For like is known by like. make yourself grow to a like expanse , and leap clear of all that is corporeal. Rise above all time and become eternal then you will apprehend god, think that for you nothing is impossible, deem that you to are immortal , and that you are able to grasp all things in your thought. to know every craft and every science, find your home in the haunts of every living creature, make yourself higher than all hieghts and lower than all depths, bring together in yourself all opposites of quality, heat and cold , dryness and fluidity, think that you are everywhere at once at land at sea, in heaven,think that you are not yet beggotten, that you are in the womb , that you are young, that you are old , that you have died, your in the world beyond the grave, grasp in your thought all this at once , all times and places and substances and qualities, magnitudes together, then you can apprenhend god, but if you shut up your soul and your body and abase yourself and say i know nothing, i can do nothing , im afraid of earth and sea , i cannot mount to heaven , i cannot , i know not what i was or what i shall be , then what have you to do with god !!

        !!!!! :)
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    Mar 3 2013: I can remember my first year after starting learning English. I'm Mexican. At the beginning it was kind of funny and hard because I was used to one vocabulary and starting learning another one was kind of tough. But I can honestly say that that year before starting learning English was the key one because everything's so exiting that it Flows with no problem. Well that was in my case.
    • Mar 4 2013: Now that you have learnt these two languages - is it possible to share , to your best memory recall , what you experience before learning any of these two languages in your first year as a baby - who didn't know any language
  • Mar 2 2013: Charan

    now that there is more time before closure here.

    I just spent a hour or so at the local family loaded - farmers market - and so had lots of time to look into the eyes of young ( less then one year old) children being held or packed around the chaos and bustle of the market.

    These eyes invited me to turn your question inside out and ask it from their ...very non-verbal perspective ...that being

    ..."Why can't Adults se the beauty all around here that I am seeing? and does 'learning a language' mean I am going to have to give up this awareness???!!"
    • Mar 2 2013: Amazing Ed - Thanks !! Great learning opportunity - Would it mean as a solution- that to understand that ability/ that makes recall difficult, after learning a language - to develop that faculty , that connects, or that was there in everyone of us as a child , and can remain with us as adult as a powerful tool seems - TO REMAIN unaffected by the " chaos and bustle in the market" to be able to experience the same state even as adult when one did as a child - knowing the language now , one can develop that ability / skill by going to the " farmer market;) " and stay in the company of child- live as / remain a child , all through life !
      • Mar 2 2013: Hi Charan

        Of course i am not saying anything new here.

        It was said with great power by many with high high LOC .."unless ye become as children you not see the Kingdom of Heaven" but unfortunately most of the religions which have sprung out of his teaching reduce that to meaning to "become meek" . There is no meekness in being a powerful observer/reflector.
    • Mar 3 2013: Ed and Charan ,
      it's very tempting to think this way, but somehow it goes against my experience.
      I remember myself being 3/4 years old ( the closest i can get to my babyhood ) but no trace of sense of beauty there. There must be a kind of a residue, at least, but no, nothing !
      I saw Beauty for the first time at the age of 18/20. And it can't be confused with 'Oh, it's so beautiful...wonderful...wow ! ' no, it's not like this, it's a direct EXPERIENCE when not a single word passes through your mind ! I haven't developed a talent to describe it, only the addiction to experience itself :)
      Maybe Beauty is our adult way to come back to the Logos.
      If it is a rational principle that governs the Universe “Absolute Beingness” a baby follows the Logos unconsciously, each second its body is growing, senses are developing... in accordance with the universal law. A baby is fully in it, fully belongs to it, trusts it. A baby is in the flow, and flow is the Logos.

      Let's put it like this : Beauty doesn't recognise itself, a baby IS Beauty and is conscious neither of itself nor Beauty.
      We, adults can re-cognise ( know again), see Beauty and at this moment be one with God/Joy/Logos again;
      become as children and see the Kingdom of Heaven.

      What do you think ? :)
      • Mar 3 2013: nn

        good that you brought this in here, Ty!!

        Yes!! above all else it must be Clearly Understood that you ( One HUman as an emanation out of your true Self (Monad) is projected into this "lower" earthly form, to take an the Experiences required to the Higher Self ..as therefore the Source itself can know itself. It is NOT a competition!!! if you don't remember "Beauty" until "x"years old ...it is as required to establish it so that on the return process ..it will be appropriately integrated into Higher-Experienced-Self . And of course the same with Languages etc etc

        But also "
        Beauty doesn't recognise itself, a baby IS Beauty and is conscious neither of itself nor Beauty."

        No No No.!!!! "Beauty does recognize itself. The primary reason for HUman to have its unique position in creation/manifestation is so that Source can recognize itself at all levels
        • Mar 3 2013: Hi, Ed !!!
          Someone said that "we need language to create the illusion that we are talking to the other " :)
          Re : "Beauty does recognize itself. The primary reason for HUman to have its unique position in creation/manifestation is so that Source can recognize itself at all levels
          Yes !
          let me try again to explain what i meant by "Beauty doesn't recognise itself "
          To re-cognise ( know again, be conscious of ) we need to be separated from Beauty and come back, re-unite with... on conscious level. If observer and observed are one (as they are ), no cognition, re-cognition is possible, hence "Beauty doesn't recognise itself " But separation is an illusion which is required for creating the distance between the observer and the observed to RECOGNISE Beauty. Beauty is downloaded in our DNA, it's like God it's within. We can't see it out there if we don't recognise it in here.
          You told me , quoting Rumi , something like : when Beauty comes Love is always here ( Sorry, Rumi :) And it's true !
          Are there any distinction between Beauty Love God Logos Truth ? We have different words , but neither of these are defined, for it is not possible to language it. We try , but what we get is : God is Love...Truth- Absolute...Beauty is Truth... Language is a code, Love Truth Beauty... partake no quality but its own. Different words for one experience and we may call it recognition. And yes, i share your belief that it's a " primary reason for HUman...." to be.
          Is it any better now ? :)
    • Mar 7 2013: It is precisely that wide open perspective that needs to be kindled in my opinion in order to see exactly what solves what, I would bet a baby were it able to in fact communicate solutions would show the adult world a thing or three! I shared earlier the thread the recollection I have of being pre lingual and what you say above hits dead center.
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    Mar 2 2013: Perhaps because we don't remember much of the early months/years.
    • Mar 2 2013: Thnx ! What factors affect this inability - that " we don't remember"
  • Mar 1 2013: Scanning below this gets way philosophical, when I read it I relate actually. Not beyond the confines, as in audacity in the child who suffers from fear in a learning situation when pre-lingual that creates a "reject as insufficient" posture. Let me back up and relate the personal experience; In an extremely unstable learning environment that is violent and so life threatening memories of a need for something which included a) more overt body language were part of the picture I held at that time. b) A clear presence; which seemed to fade when words threatened a place of being and it's expression. Gestures that are more organic such as eye-box expressions are huge in that they convey the actual circumstance not one where interpretation becomes murky. As I write this I consider your question as to inception versus higher technical language use which I cannot recall. I hope this was either on point or informative without sounding high. It's just I have always remembered that point in life. The perceived frustration of language limitation that is.
    • Mar 2 2013: Thanks - Philip, indeed I can relate to what your said. Interestingly I met this evening a friend who said as a child he was fearful going to some houses and fearless visiting some other - till today he couldn't figure out whys and hows of this ? If from technical language you mean - what can help better recall of those child hood times - before as a child one has learnt the language - correct me if wrong . Whether pleasant or unpleasant experiences, verbal or nonverbal memories - the point remains what can fill the gap - that helps any one of us to recall one ' s experiences before first year - when language was learnt!! Everyone of us should be equally capable of recall - since we all grew from being a child into an adult and so on .
      • Mar 2 2013: Hi Charan

        Of course i am not saying anything new here.

        It was said with great power by many with high high LOC .."unless ye become as children you not see the Kingdom of Heaven" but unfortunately most of the religions which have sprung out of his teaching reduce that to meaning to "become meek" . There is no meekness in being a powerful observer/reflector.
        • Mar 2 2013: Fortunate to be in a child' company !!! Luv being a child ;)
      • Mar 7 2013: Very cool discussion Charan thank you for the forum to explore ! Also I think ed hits it straight on, and on the "tech aspect" I meant language actually deviates from organic communication to theoretical conference. This leaves real time "presence" behind which is probably inconceivable to such a young person and so a case ought to be made in this regard for theoretical pursuits differentiating, It really is interesting to me the deviation point here it's ramifications and otherwise.
  • Feb 27 2013: Thinking about language...

    St Augustine was able to perform miracles and one of his miracles looked like this :
    The manuscript was opened in front of him ; he looked at the page for some time and then could tell what was written there.

    He could read silently !!!
    It was a miracle back then in the end of the third century BC. Now we all can do it, 7/8 year old child can do it and we take it for granted. It's how our human ability to get/transfer information has been shifted from audial to abstract-visual. Now we can communicate via written text on line and sometimes it's possible to get a precious aha-moment ! :)
    Has it anything to do with vibration ? Of course, there is nothing but vibrations, but what is vibrating ? Meaning !!! Abstract meaning, which makes visualisation possible. Words are like stones thrown into the pond ; it is not a word that conveys the meaning ,but the ripples it sends out.
    If your mind's picture resonates with my mind's picture the understanding may occur !
    Language is the reflection of human psyche and the main factor that changes it. It is,as all is- concrescence.

    Re : it may add new vocabulary or use existing words in a new perspective to share with others.
    Maybe, yes... but i think we are moving to the domain of new/old media.

    What do you think ?
    • Feb 27 2013: Natasha !! What seems as a miracle for some - with scientific mind one may turn that into common persons empowerment tool! Thus investigating into the cause of Amnesia/ factors affecting ability to recall !! Yes it is vibrations - as per my evolving understanding , not a privilege for some - however, an equal opportunity for all to connect with the Core. Collectively , we can work to explore this partly eclipsed field. I agree with you strongly that , search for meaning - researching, churning , re- reading sometimes bring the " Aha! Moments ! Full of insight - soothing !! Refreshing!! Strengthening !!
      • Feb 28 2013: Imagine a line that goes away from the Core towards the abstract/mentality ( baby/humanity is growing ). But there are no strait lines in nature, any line appears to be a curve and it goes back to the Core.
        Someone asked : why are we here ? And answered : we are here to go.
        You see where i am heading ?
        Just example : Mandelbrot set.
        I am not a mathematician and have no chance to understand the algorithm behind it.
        But being visualised it is open to anyone with eyes open, i can see and get my ' aha' !
        So... we are here to go, no need to go back, for it is not possible , we need to go forward and "by the end of our exploration we'll come to the place where we've started to see it for the first time"
        The end is The beginning. The Core is always here, it goes nowhere, it's you/me/us relating to Nature.
        Didn't you notice, that any time we try to say something we really want to say, it sounds tooo laud even tasteless...?
        I'd better not to read my post before submitting :)
        • Feb 28 2013: Natasha- what do you think about as a child one develops a image that is nothing but Imitation of the universe around !!! What may be called ego/ false self / what dies ;)
      • Feb 28 2013: True story !
        How true ? How do i know ? I am involved, i am that child :)
      • Mar 1 2013: Hi, Charan ,
        i love your metaphor !
        To make it more ' true ' i would suggest to push it to the edge of comprehensibility, it should be not graspable by rational mind.
        " a child develops an image that is nothing but Imitation of the universe around " ...which is around only because a child is dreaming it into existence.
        Something like this.
        A rational mind would cry : it's impossible to understand it even on the metaphoric level , it's paradoxical...absurd !
        But a subtle mind would honour the complexity of the situation.
        Just thoughts :)
    • Feb 28 2013: Charan

      HU is the vibration/frequency Sufi use ( deep deep in the central chest area) ….as the Buddhists use Ooom …to bring ones Being as close to Origin as possible ( of Being but with out leaving it ).


      nn Hi!

      Re: “What is Logos in this context? Nothing is separate from Absolute, so Logos is Absolute.”
      Logos is “Absolute Beingness” (manifested as Superconsciousness as in your example of Saint Augustine ) Yes and there are many other example. I can think of one who assisted Egyptologists translate Their ‘Book of the Dead’. When he corrected some of their mistakes and they complained ..."how do you know more then we?" he replied "Because I helped write the original"

      That “BEingness” is the both, blessing and the curse we HU-mans deal with and …back to Charans origin question …..and your “why are we here ?..to go” pointer. We seem to “forget” what we knew in past incarnations and early current earthly life, but of course nothing is “forgotten” because it is recorded in Cosmic Mind / Akashic records for when full alignment (with Logos) is developed. But in the mean time thanks to divine grace this “forget-fullness” is there to protect lower mind which cannot handle the power Superconsciousness.
      • Feb 28 2013: Hi Ed !!!
        "Logos is “Absolute Beingness”
        Yes, it makes sense, but to explain why it makes sense for me i need to write a book :)
        "...Because I helped write the original"
        Is there any currently living being who didn't participate in writing the ‘Book of the Dead’ ?
        We all were writing the " Book of the Dead " the Bible, Hermetic corpus....anything ..everything.
        If they had not been written, the world, you and i inhabit would have been a different place and you/me/us would be different beings There is nothing to remember or hide/protect, all the world from ' let it be light ' to that very moment is here ; nothing lasts but nothing is lost either. The problem is to have an opening to ' now' , where all is condensed. I don't think it's even possible to get there by mind, but somehow we can have this gut feeling, it's a kind of unprovable certainty. And mind is a very helpful thing, actually to bring us to the point where it is not allowed to enter.

        " But in the mean time thanks to divine grace this “forget-fullness” is there to protect lower mind which cannot handle the power Superconsciousness."

        What can't be handled can't be used/misused, i guess.
        So it's protected by itself. Would one strive for power, dominance if that one could feel immortal, being one all over the place ? Who are those others to control, if it's all you ??? Those who can't feel this way, can't handle the power and can't use.
        And here we are, at least, i am :)
        Amnesia is a disease and an engine that pushes us to go, to be, to ' know thyself' . I think , it's a blessing to be aware of 'human condition', really be aware, it makes 'the curse' part enjoyable and here miracles and openings may happen
        Does it make sense ? :)
        Thankus !
        • Mar 2 2013: Thanks to you all- it seems the Amnesia is complementary to recall - when we write two words , a space gap is needed to between two example : thisismypoint -if I don't leave space , reader will have difficulty reading , similarly continuous talking has its challenges -in stead dialogcal - speaking - pause - listening is efficient / productive !!! Both listening - speaking , or space between two words thus Space-written words are complementary to each other - if this is correct then what seems WORTH EXPLORING REMAINS - What connects these two complementary possibilities and how ? You complement - turn;)
      • Mar 1 2013: "....thanks to divine grace this “forget-fullness” is there to protect lower mind which cannot handle the power Superconsciousness."
        It's just occurred to me , that it is not about 'use/misuse' possibility, as i've thought before ; it's deeper. Superconsciousness can be incompatible with the very idea of ' being ' for the ' lower mind '

        I was wrong in my rapid guessing. I am quite often wrong :)
        • Mar 1 2013:  And which aspect of you could possibly be "wrong" ??!!!!???!!! :-) why .the lower minds speculation of the Higher Self tis all. ;-) ;-)

          It like the now late but great Dr D R Hawkins loved to point out ..."nothing ever happened!!" ;-)
          Or Tolle's, "few things matter much and most things don't matter at all."

          But you are absolute correct on your earlier comment on the Divine wisdom's -will pleasure's keeping the power (its power) completely out of the reach of lower mind (ego). Even if it could even touch the slightest hint of Omnipotence it would be quit the disaster .On a side note...about 8 months ago the science community in publication ..ScimAm, Science and nature wrote about their realization that the term "The Big Bang" is a gross misnomer ...it should be called "The Big Drop Down" because that is that it was ..a Lower Energy field coming in to manifestation out of much Higher Potential Energy fields

          Glad to see /hear this thread is continuing to bubble along !!!
        • Mar 2 2013: Nn- Just to add ( what Ed said) there is no higher (super) or lower( mind) consciousness , it seems.... There is no wrong either - higher and lower are complementary to each other - like the Rowing !!! Take the life boat on the journey ahead or two side of a coin ( as once Casey - posted a YouTube link , though with only the dynamic between two sides never stops - unlike as on the you tube, the massage of complementing / protecting each other seems important .) There is a CONTINUUM- inhale followed by exhale followed by inhale- day followed by night follows by day !!! What else logical mind needs to explore this concept !!!. Scientific minds are struggling to find the unitary gravity , that was there before BB - the weakest link in their 4 Energy types -puzzle - that during Big Bang expanded to that dimension keeping every thing / all energsies stable there after;)
      • Mar 2 2013: Hi, Ed !!!
        "The Big Drop Down" sounds much better, it spells ' The Big Up ' is on the way ! :)
        Could you help me with a link, if any ?

        And about my ' i am wrong' confession :)
        It's easy for Tolle ( who jumpes into ' now' at will and comes back with a baby smile... ) not to talk himself to belief that he understands something right. I'm watching myself not to entertain i-understand- illusion. Neither right nor wrong standingunder is what i am after. That's why each time when i think that i am probably 'right' i start to seek the 'wrong' part and it's always voila ! :)
      • Mar 2 2013: Thanks, Charan !!!
        Yes and Yes ! :)
        The balance was broken and still preserved. This point somehow i can grasp, but CONTINUUM- lasts, lasts forever ... ETERNITY has no duration at all , it's where Time stops.
        How to reconcile them ?
        I guess it is not comprehensible, but maybe it's possible to create a paradoxical verbal ' model ' with ' no time' part in it ?
        Like ' center is everywhere' , ' the seer is the seen ' ... i can have ' aha ' here. But it's all about continuum.
        How to involve 'zero' into the picture ? My mental effort looks like " abandon hope ye who enter here " :)
      • Mar 2 2013: Charan ,
        i've just read your your 'Amnesia is complementary to recall ' comment.
        So... Amnesia is an interval.
        Great !
        I am searching for ' zero' part, while it is always here , not seen( as it should ), but if it was not here, nothing would be seen !
    • Mar 2 2013: Hi nn

      don't want to distract here ....the point of this article "big freeze" is crucial to the "why can't lower mind remember ( and the 'word' re-member aught to be shift instead) question

      http://rt.com/news/universe-creation-big-chill-259/

      Other articles such as space.com that this and water it down by trying to see/hear it from the lowest /dimension/perspective ...the "fro zed" level .......but I am sure you will / see / hear / feel in the "behind" the words of the link the same principle the ancient sages pointed to when they used the analogy the level of consciousness is like the states water exists in ...solid liquid and vapour.

      In the higher states of consciousness ..(so called "vapourous" ) all things not only languages" can and will be "re-membered" . So the answer to Charan original question "why can't we" is ...because our exposed to the lowest (frozen) state of consciousness is ..."because of our exposer to "frozen"

      Cheers
      • Mar 2 2013: Ed, thanks for the link !
        James Quach:
        "The reason we use the water analogy is water is without form,” "In the beginning there wasn't even space. Space did not exist because there was no form."
        The Bible :
        In the beginning...the earth was without form, and void.....And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters "
        No comments !
        What about global warming ? To put it into the context of the article seems to be too risky or naive , but why not ? Nothing has independent existence from anything else.
        I'll think about it :)
        • Mar 3 2013: Hi nn

          well Quach is a bit off the mark there ...water ..as does all the manifest exist does..responds to the consciousness effecting it. By the latter ...."wasn't even space" is correct. Also there was no "form" until there is an observer with a mind developed to create the form which resonates with its particular vibration.

          Re: "What about global warming?" The Earth has the same support structure as each HUman does ..iow ..it is looked after power far far higher then HUman UNconsciousness can ever effect it. The Earthly realm with BE as lang as required to support the next progression of HUman ...iow it will respond to the behaviours of HUman UNconsciousness appropriately ...and as Tolle so appropriately puts it "Even the Sun will die" therefore...in a sense current Unconscious behaviour is preparing us for the ability to create the "New" Sun when required.

          See you up top here
        • Mar 4 2013: Yes

          all the true masters who have left wisdom to be followed pointed out the when ever there is a growth in consciousness there is a equal resistance trying to hold it back.

          Schopenhauer's "all turns are first ridiculed , then treated with hostility ...and finally seen as self evident .

          A truth once brought open influence all ...not just those who are immediately ware of it. Global consciousness broke through LOC 200 approx 20 years ago and it has fluxed between 202 and 205 sinc.

          I appreciate the Blake quote ....its goes right to the Noetic ...Thank Us!!!!
      • Mar 3 2013: Global warming is what ' the lower mind ' can register, being not quite aware of the processes behind it or simply put : the flux.
        But on the other hand ' lower mind ' is not separate from the Mind , nothing is.
        Is it what you are saying ?
        The Nature is fractal and yes 'as above so below '. In physics there is a concept of phase transition ; i guess, it's where we are now.
        If the experiment fails on this planet, the torch of evolving consciousness will be picked up elsewhere, on some other planet round some other sun. If think 'quantum mechanically' more correct picture, more mature one may look like
        ".Unconscious behaviour is preparing us for the ability to create the "New" Sun when required."
        Yes.
        Re :"Even the Sun will die"
        "There is Time, there was Time and there will be Time no more " ( maybe William Blake )
        Gurdjieff said "The majority of people are asleep, but some are awake ! " Those who you and me are quoting here are awake. But maybe the layer of people who are not fully asleep is growing now and growing fast ? If yes, what does it mean ?
        Thanks, Ed !
        • Mar 4 2013: Yes

          all the true masters who have left wisdom to be followed pointed out the when ever there is a growth in consciousness there is a equal resistance trying to hold it back.

          Schopenhauer's "all turns are first ridiculed , then treated with hostility ...and finally seen as self evident .

          A truth once brought open influence all ...not just those who are immediately ware of it. Global consciousness broke through LOC 200 approx 20 years ago and it has fluxed between 202 and 205 sinc.

          I appreciate the Blake quote ....its goes right to the Noetic ...Thank Us!!!!
      • Mar 4 2013: Fallowing ' nothing is right or wrong' script, hostility is a curse/blessing that allows more Recognition.
        Have a joyful day !
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    Feb 26 2013: Many philosophers link language to consciousness. Why can't we verbalize our experiences we had when we did not have language? It seems to be a metaphysical question, much like "why can't we remember our experience while we were unconscious after we gain consciousness?" As it is with other metaphysical questions, I doubt that science will ever shed light on it.

    Yet, isn't the answer right there, in the question itself? What can we narrate about times when we could not narrate? Perhaps, ability to narrate is THE factor.

    I realize that my answer is trivial and may seem annoying. Before hitting "submit", I struggle with the thought "is it worth it?" do I contribute something of value? But then, isn't the question also trivial? Was it worth asking? So, I scroll down and read the insightful answers to this trivial question given by other people and I think, "Definitely so!". So, here we go.
    • Feb 28 2013: Thanks Arkady !! indeed your input is "something of value"- anything that can take this questioner a micro micro millimeter ahead on unfolding this "ability to narrate is THE factor". Do you think unconsciousness is absence of consciousness ? or there is some thread joining the two !! tapping that thread with which Consciousness is understood as unconsciousness might bring some insight into why one cant recall? It seems a likely practical implication of this would be our experiential clock will not start with language learning after first year - knowing about the complete circle would mean better exploring, likely more fulfilling;) What appears trivial apparently is because of of it being not fully traveled !! phonetically little bit similar as per consonants- with manageable vowel sounds - trivial , travel;)
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        Feb 28 2013: It seems to be a deeply philosophical question. Unconsciousness is as difficult to describe as "nothing" - not emptiness as void space, not darkness as absence of light, not silence as absence of sound, but complete "nothing" - no time, no space, no matter - complete non-existence. As we try to describe it, we necessarily describe *something*. When we describe unconscious experience, it means that the experience is not unconscious.

        The beginning of our consciousness is as mysterious as the beginning of the universe. Many people believe that the universe started from nothing, that there was no time, no space, and no matter at the beginning. It may be so, but we cannot comprehend it with reason. In one forum, a person, trying to explain that time did not exist before big bang, said: "there was time when there was no time" (#$%&??)

        Your analogy with clock is very good. Time does not have meaning before the first tick of a clock. In quantum physics, the smallest time interval that can be measured in principle is Planck time (~10^-45s). We cannot say anything about time or universe before Planck time after the big bang. It wasn't "something", but it wasn't nothing either. It was uncertainty.

        I think, it works in a similar way with consciousness. The first tick of the clock is when we say "I AM" - able to separate "self" from "not self", existence from non-existence, yes from no, light from darkness, etc. That's the first bit of information about the world we get or create which immediately explodes into a universe.
        • Feb 28 2013: Great !! Consciousness and Unconsciousness seems equally strong attributed of That Entity that travels in and out of Time. It seems the Big Bang / "explodes into a universe"for everyone of us is when first cry gets heard with cut of Umbilical cord - then one can see the world imitate the world - which may be Collective Consciousness (Aggregate of individual That Entities) from where one learns - who one is - name is so and so, father, mother, surrounding and so on. What interestingly has not changed in That Entity which got exposed to Collective Consciousness that does one's nomenclature and define that "I AM" . What puts That Entity into sleep that knows all about Who "I AM"?