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Do right and wrong exist?
I'm curious about objective right and wrong. If you believe in God, this is a no-brainer. Some things are wrong, some things are right, simply because God says so and He knows. But if you don't believe in God, can you still believe in objective morality? I personally don't think you can. I mean, what do you base it off of? How do you find out what's objectively right or wrong? (By objective I mean "existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality." from dictionary.com)
Sure, there's subjective morality. Any idea of right or wrong come up with by a human is by definition subjective. That's all well and good. Problem is that it only applies to people who believe in it and it gives them no authority to proclaim anything as "what we should be doing." Very often everybody disagrees with each other and we don't get anywhere. (Just look at Congress for an example of this.)
Maybe you disagree with me and you think there is objective morality but no God. That's fine. I would like to ask you to answer a question for me though. Let's pick an easy one. Why is rape objectively wrong? Don't misunderstand me, I can't think of a single instance where rape wouldn't be wrong. I believe very strongly that sexual abuse is one of the greatest evils in the world. Why is it evil? If you can answer me without using a God-based or subjective argument, I'll concede the point.
That point is this: Without God, there is no such thing as right and wrong, only the things we call right and wrong. And since nobody can agree on what to call what, we're all in a lot of trouble.
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Gail . 50+
This said:
My worldview places total responsibility for my life in my hands. (TOTAL). I am the creator of my reality. If have a want, I manifest it. If I am upset, I choose differently. I have done this so much and for so long that doubt about it has evaporated. I can manifest anything that I want, thus, I have godly power. If I am a god, and you are a god (because everyone is endowed with this power whether they recognize it - thus use - or not), and all that is, is a god - and no god has power over another god without consent - then the term god is meaningless, thus there is no Omniscient/Omnipotent "God".
There are a growing number like me, who live as deliberate creators. There is a common thread among us. As we treat others, so do we treat ourselves. Why? Because we are really all one, and the separations that so many see among us are mere illusion. When I victimize another, I know that I see myself as a victim already, and because I manifest my beliefs (about victimhood) into my world, I can know that I will be victimized in my world. Thus treating others with respect benefits me greatly. Treating others with disrespect is not wrong. It just means that I will be treated disrespectfully. But ultimately, it is my choice how I want to be treated. To change the outcomes (consequences) I need only recognize that nothing happens without my first having asked for it through my thoughts, beliefs, & emotings.
When one becomes self-aware, an ethic becomes profoundly obvious and it becomes impossible to operate within the strange confines of the commonly held worldview or accept its strange values of right/wrong & good/evil.
My worldview correlates with the teachings of Jesus perfectly. It clashes profoundly with the teachings of Paul/Saul. The two worldviews are mutually exclusive. The Christian church should be called the Paulian Church.
Louise Kyte
I'm glad you're self aware and have developed an ethic. For thousands of years there have been people doing this without needing to believe in any kind of deity. That's fine. But human experience, and therefore human nature, is extremely varied. Many are incapable of developing an ethic on their own. They move among us, often destructively, and we must try to meet the challenge of their existence. I wish you continued good luck and that someday you'll realize you have that and be grateful for it.
Gail . 50+
Here's how I view the world. In the beginning was a self-aware idea. John 1;1 calls it "the word". Scientists call it "the singularity". Christians call it "God". John 1 says, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In a moment of great inspiration, the idea split into its many pieces and began expanding to explore its possibilities. Ideas are made of thoughts and thoughts of words and words of meanings. We call this explosive expansion, the Big Bang.
Quantum physicists have discovered that when you split a sub-atomic particle, its pieces are entangled. That means that not only do they exist independently, but they remain part of the original particle. They are an ASPECT of the original particle - not inferior to it in any way.
I am suggesting that YOU are an ASPECT of what you call God. (Jesus said we are gods) And yes, so is the murderer as well as the child dying in a bizarre accident. Where you grant someone or something outside of you power, I grant me power. No one dies without his/her consent.
Jesus said "All that you ask is answered". I realized that this also meant - if you don't like what you see, change what you are asking for. He said that you have the power to move a mountain into the sea. He said that if you find the kingdom of heaven (that is within you NOW), not only will you be given a counselor, but you will have all that you want. I learned that this is true.
My life is EXACTLY as charmed as yours. I just know what I am manifesting because "I" choose it. I don't choose harm.
Gail . 50+
The first beatitude says "Blessed (of God/with God/walking with God) are the poor in spirit (spiritually ignorant/spiritually bankrupt/evil), for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Christianity says that theirs is the kingdom of Satan. But if all are one, then the judgement that one has that a part of self is deserving of hell is inconsistent with Jesus' teaching: "Judge not".
YOu cannot see the perfection of others because you have not yet done your own work and found your own perfection, that Jesus said is yours but Christianity says is not possible. BEcause of this, you project your mistaken beliefs on others in order to make sense of your world. But in doing so, you make your life, and the lives of those around you, quite miserable. By speaking ill of those Jesus said commit acts of "hamartia" (acting in ignorance causing harm) - Jesus never used the word sin pre KJV - you condemn yourself to all that you would condemn them to. Thus you receive as you give, in like measure.
Jesus never used the word repent (not seeing imperfection in you). He used the words first recorded in koine Greek, "metanao" and "metamellamai", that means simply - change your way of thinking and change your way of emoting - respectively. Jesus never spoke of Hell. He spoke of Gehenna, where those with wretched lives eek out an existence.
So in this context, "Change your way of thinking and emoting. Judge not (yourself or others). Believe what he taught (his teachings not his divinity) - that you are powerful. Then lift yourself up from your wretched existence and enjoy the bounty that you will see before you when you discover the riches that are of the kingdom of heaven that is within you now.
This is a message worth spreading. The church wants it banished. Ask yourself why.
Louise Kyte
Gail . 50+
In the Garden of Eden story, Adam and Eve did not eat of the Tree of Knowledge, as is so often taught. They ate of the Tree of Knowledge OF GOOD AND EVIL. When they did so, the Lord ("Lord" means "the word") said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand (while knowing good and evil), and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden (the direction of new beginnings/days) cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Those who stop judging the perceived unrighteousness of others, can easily and safely walk past the flaming sword, toward the cherubim, and see the eternalness of one's own life. Jesus called it the kingdom of heaven. He also said NOT to believe anyone who told you that it is anywhere but within yourself. (Isn't that what Christianity teaches?)
Eternity is a very long, endless time (in either direction - having no beginning or no end). Can you not trust one of God's aspects to live out its potential without judgment because you have found the way to protect you (but not others directly) from harm?
When you find the kingdom of heaven within you, you will walk in perfect alignment, and by seeing your own perfection and your own godliness, you can do much to help.
NOW: Staying in this perfect alignment at all times is my goal. But Jesus said that if you seek, you shall find. If you ask, it is given.
You, however, are seeking your own specialness - you want to be better than those you have judged harshly. You do not want to be one-with the Christ (the kingdom of heaven - your source) - obviously, because you still judge others unrighteously (as not righteous).
This is your choice. Nothing wrong with it, other than you live a wretched life in comparison to another possibility that is realized through searching.
Gail . 50+
Louise Kyte
Gail . 50+
I don't know what you would say, but I would not go there unless I knew that I was speaking to someone of like-mind. It would be too cruel to do so and I do not want to further the parents misconceptions by supporting error.
I do NOT want to blame anyone. For there to be blame, there must be error. I do not see error because I define time differently than you.
This is NOT about blame. It's about a soul's self-chosen course and purpose.
You say that my view is not centered in reality? You (in your self-perceived smallness) see yourself as a victim. This is part of Christian teaching. So you cling to a god who will not step in and protect the child (thus, by inferrence - you)?
I have faced imminent death at the hands of an aggressor, and using Jesus' teachings, "Fear not" and "Judge not", I found the place of peace within and he did not harm me. I also did this to avoid an imminent and seemingly inescapable rape. He walked out the door, locking it behind him.
"Turn the other cheek" does not mean to turn it in fear. It means, fear not, and allow the great peace (that you call god) to protect you.
I have tested my beliefs. Have you tested yours?
But I will leave this conversation. I"m not here to proselytize. Simply to explain myself with respect to your question. I've done this to the best of my abilities within the framework of 2,000 characters per post.
Louise Kyte
Or what's a heaven for?" -Robert Browning
With the above example of the traffic jam I've just realized I've given you the ability to say again that you don't see time the way I do (as a thief, etc.). So here's another example. As a follower of Christ's teachings, you naturally wish to feed the hungry. Remembering that they exist in the hundreds of millions and get hungry again each day. you would like at least $100billion dollars with which to do that. Can you manifest this? With the help of all others feeling similarly you could, but not by yourself alone. We all have our limitations. Remembering this helps to keep us humble supplicants. We can & do pray for God's help in meeting the needs of the world. And we are not foolish enough to suppose that all who hunger do so because of their inadequacies as human beings. It is undeniably true that fate can be cruel.
Gail . 50+
As you pointed out, I could have all the money in the world, but it would not feed all the hungry who are born every day. But the wisdom of how to manifest their needs according to the teachings of Jesus would end hunger. So it is people like you to prefer money over God who keep the hungry masses hungry and poor when they could be living in a world of abundance. You would tell them that they have sin in them and that they are powerless and dependent on a God who does not always answer prayers.
I find it odd that you call yourself a Christian while not believing that Jesus was telling the truth when he said that if you ask for bread, you will not be given a stone.
I do not believe that humans are inadequate. I have learned that seeing yourself as inadequate is a prayer to god that will be answered according to the request you are making. You can choose to be a humble supplicant if you want, but I prefer to be one-with christ and in control of great power. It's an ability that I have tested over and over and over again - because I practice daily. I have learned that Jesus was telling the truth, and here you are telling me that he was lying. Don't you think that is curious?
Fate is only cruel if you are not determining your fate, thus you allow cruelty in. It's not "blame". It's acknowledgement of your choice - be it conscious or unconscious due to ignorance. From my perspective, your worldview is very cruel, so you can expect to see cruelty in your world. I, who do not see any imperfection in you, but see a wondrously beautiful and perfect aspect of God (or Christ), have immunized myself. How? The power of "God" is channeled through me and you. The only difference is that I choose how to use that power, and you allow your religious teachers to choose for you.
"You are the light of the world" (Jesus)
Louise Kyte
Gail . 50+
As to the traffic jam? That's a choice too. I wouldn't be in one in the first place (though to be sure, I have spent enough time on the DC beltway to know them intimately. But, if you choose a life with traffic jams, who one is when choosing a life where one is stuck in traffic is a choice. You can choose frustration. I chose to practice manifesting. It was time alone, where I had nothing better to do. Now I choose to live in a place where traffic jams don't happen (except in summer - but still nothing like the DC beltway), but I never feel the need to go anywhere when I know that traffic is heavy. That is a choice of mine. I do not berate you for making a different choice. I do not look down on you.
My life is wholly different since my awakening. I've lived your world. I was a Christian for 30 years. Now I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus as opposed to the exclusive divinity of Jesus.
Louise Kyte
Gail . 50+
Meanwhile, Jesus said that as you judge, so you shall be judged. Look at all those judgements of me. Hmmmmmmmmm. You're being very hard on yourself, but that too is your choice.
I'm not sticking pins in you. You're bumping into your own mistaken beliefs. I cannot make you angry. You alone have the power to choose it or not. I choose not.
the end
Louise Kyte