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Do right and wrong exist?

I'm curious about objective right and wrong. If you believe in God, this is a no-brainer. Some things are wrong, some things are right, simply because God says so and He knows. But if you don't believe in God, can you still believe in objective morality? I personally don't think you can. I mean, what do you base it off of? How do you find out what's objectively right or wrong? (By objective I mean "existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality." from dictionary.com)
Sure, there's subjective morality. Any idea of right or wrong come up with by a human is by definition subjective. That's all well and good. Problem is that it only applies to people who believe in it and it gives them no authority to proclaim anything as "what we should be doing." Very often everybody disagrees with each other and we don't get anywhere. (Just look at Congress for an example of this.)
Maybe you disagree with me and you think there is objective morality but no God. That's fine. I would like to ask you to answer a question for me though. Let's pick an easy one. Why is rape objectively wrong? Don't misunderstand me, I can't think of a single instance where rape wouldn't be wrong. I believe very strongly that sexual abuse is one of the greatest evils in the world. Why is it evil? If you can answer me without using a God-based or subjective argument, I'll concede the point.
That point is this: Without God, there is no such thing as right and wrong, only the things we call right and wrong. And since nobody can agree on what to call what, we're all in a lot of trouble.


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    Feb 9 2013: In my world, right and wrong do not exist - neither does evil. No exceptions.

    This said:

    My worldview places total responsibility for my life in my hands. (TOTAL). I am the creator of my reality. If have a want, I manifest it. If I am upset, I choose differently. I have done this so much and for so long that doubt about it has evaporated. I can manifest anything that I want, thus, I have godly power. If I am a god, and you are a god (because everyone is endowed with this power whether they recognize it - thus use - or not), and all that is, is a god - and no god has power over another god without consent - then the term god is meaningless, thus there is no Omniscient/Omnipotent "God".

    There are a growing number like me, who live as deliberate creators. There is a common thread among us. As we treat others, so do we treat ourselves. Why? Because we are really all one, and the separations that so many see among us are mere illusion. When I victimize another, I know that I see myself as a victim already, and because I manifest my beliefs (about victimhood) into my world, I can know that I will be victimized in my world. Thus treating others with respect benefits me greatly. Treating others with disrespect is not wrong. It just means that I will be treated disrespectfully. But ultimately, it is my choice how I want to be treated. To change the outcomes (consequences) I need only recognize that nothing happens without my first having asked for it through my thoughts, beliefs, & emotings.

    When one becomes self-aware, an ethic becomes profoundly obvious and it becomes impossible to operate within the strange confines of the commonly held worldview or accept its strange values of right/wrong & good/evil.

    My worldview correlates with the teachings of Jesus perfectly. It clashes profoundly with the teachings of Paul/Saul. The two worldviews are mutually exclusive. The Christian church should be called the Paulian Church.
    • Feb 21 2013: I find so much I like in what you say and so much I don't like. You say there's no evil. How do you describe someone intent on doing harm to others, perhaps even killing them, just for the thrill of it? They may never, on this earth, receive any kind of just consequence for their actions and this is what they count on. "Just don't get caught" they say to themselves. You notice that what you sow comes back to you. You probably don't try to carry on a secret life. I'm glad you don't if that's the case. But you lead an impossibly charmed life if you can really manifest everything that you want. Can you make the clock run backwards? Make time stop? Do you never want to? Some day you may be so old, you'll need help with all sorts of things. You could meet with a horrible fate tomorrow that would render you unable to help yourself as soon as that. Life is an uncertain affair whether you can see it that way or not. And it is often unjust. You may die young through no fault of your own. You are not a god, but a mortal like the rest of us. Those of us who have the courage to accept these sorts of truths realize how valuable we can be to each other. Jesus exhorted us to learn to help each other. The culture he came from already taught that.

      I'm glad you're self aware and have developed an ethic. For thousands of years there have been people doing this without needing to believe in any kind of deity. That's fine. But human experience, and therefore human nature, is extremely varied. Many are incapable of developing an ethic on their own. They move among us, often destructively, and we must try to meet the challenge of their existence. I wish you continued good luck and that someday you'll realize you have that and be grateful for it.
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        Feb 21 2013: I understand how strange my worldview is compared to yours, but it is so much more logical and cohesive than yours. You have not yet examined your worldview to discover its inconsistencies and variances with what you want in life. You have not taken control of your emotions. You have not yet learned to walk TOWARDS and then through your fears. On the other side of fear is a whole different world, which is why Jesus often said, "Fear not".

        Here's how I view the world. In the beginning was a self-aware idea. John 1;1 calls it "the word". Scientists call it "the singularity". Christians call it "God". John 1 says, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

        In a moment of great inspiration, the idea split into its many pieces and began expanding to explore its possibilities. Ideas are made of thoughts and thoughts of words and words of meanings. We call this explosive expansion, the Big Bang.

        Quantum physicists have discovered that when you split a sub-atomic particle, its pieces are entangled. That means that not only do they exist independently, but they remain part of the original particle. They are an ASPECT of the original particle - not inferior to it in any way.

        I am suggesting that YOU are an ASPECT of what you call God. (Jesus said we are gods) And yes, so is the murderer as well as the child dying in a bizarre accident. Where you grant someone or something outside of you power, I grant me power. No one dies without his/her consent.

        Jesus said "All that you ask is answered". I realized that this also meant - if you don't like what you see, change what you are asking for. He said that you have the power to move a mountain into the sea. He said that if you find the kingdom of heaven (that is within you NOW), not only will you be given a counselor, but you will have all that you want. I learned that this is true.

        My life is EXACTLY as charmed as yours. I just know what I am manifesting because "I" choose it. I don't choose harm.
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        Feb 21 2013: Christianity has lost its way. It accepts the teachings of Paul rather than the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said "love your enemies". Christianity says that they deserve hell. How loving is that?

        The first beatitude says "Blessed (of God/with God/walking with God) are the poor in spirit (spiritually ignorant/spiritually bankrupt/evil), for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Christianity says that theirs is the kingdom of Satan. But if all are one, then the judgement that one has that a part of self is deserving of hell is inconsistent with Jesus' teaching: "Judge not".

        YOu cannot see the perfection of others because you have not yet done your own work and found your own perfection, that Jesus said is yours but Christianity says is not possible. BEcause of this, you project your mistaken beliefs on others in order to make sense of your world. But in doing so, you make your life, and the lives of those around you, quite miserable. By speaking ill of those Jesus said commit acts of "hamartia" (acting in ignorance causing harm) - Jesus never used the word sin pre KJV - you condemn yourself to all that you would condemn them to. Thus you receive as you give, in like measure.

        Jesus never used the word repent (not seeing imperfection in you). He used the words first recorded in koine Greek, "metanao" and "metamellamai", that means simply - change your way of thinking and change your way of emoting - respectively. Jesus never spoke of Hell. He spoke of Gehenna, where those with wretched lives eek out an existence.

        So in this context, "Change your way of thinking and emoting. Judge not (yourself or others). Believe what he taught (his teachings not his divinity) - that you are powerful. Then lift yourself up from your wretched existence and enjoy the bounty that you will see before you when you discover the riches that are of the kingdom of heaven that is within you now.

        This is a message worth spreading. The church wants it banished. Ask yourself why.
        • Feb 21 2013: Sorry, there's too little reality in your views. Ask yourself this, "What would I say to the family of a child kidnapped right off his schoolbus?" What would it sound like if you said, "He had to have brought it on himself". If a plane crashes & everyone dies, did they bring it on themselves? If it contained a surgeon flying in to save a life, would you say he got all that he wanted? No, he wanted to save the life of the person he was going to help. I've known too many cock sure young people who cannot give credit to their societies and their luck for partly making them who they are. Jesus admired humility and gratitude. You want to blame people for having bad fortune befall them, despite the fact that it falls on all of us. We don't blame ourselves for this or blame God either, if we know what's good for us. Rather, we cling to Him for His ability to get us through hard times. You want to think your path makes you immune to pain & misfortune. But it comes to us all.
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        Feb 21 2013: Forgive me for the length, but I want to make one addition.

        In the Garden of Eden story, Adam and Eve did not eat of the Tree of Knowledge, as is so often taught. They ate of the Tree of Knowledge OF GOOD AND EVIL. When they did so, the Lord ("Lord" means "the word") said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand (while knowing good and evil), and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden (the direction of new beginnings/days) cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

        Those who stop judging the perceived unrighteousness of others, can easily and safely walk past the flaming sword, toward the cherubim, and see the eternalness of one's own life. Jesus called it the kingdom of heaven. He also said NOT to believe anyone who told you that it is anywhere but within yourself. (Isn't that what Christianity teaches?)

        Eternity is a very long, endless time (in either direction - having no beginning or no end). Can you not trust one of God's aspects to live out its potential without judgment because you have found the way to protect you (but not others directly) from harm?

        When you find the kingdom of heaven within you, you will walk in perfect alignment, and by seeing your own perfection and your own godliness, you can do much to help.

        NOW: Staying in this perfect alignment at all times is my goal. But Jesus said that if you seek, you shall find. If you ask, it is given.

        You, however, are seeking your own specialness - you want to be better than those you have judged harshly. You do not want to be one-with the Christ (the kingdom of heaven - your source) - obviously, because you still judge others unrighteously (as not righteous).

        This is your choice. Nothing wrong with it, other than you live a wretched life in comparison to another possibility that is realized through searching.
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        Feb 21 2013: PS: the flaming sword is your fear.
        • Feb 21 2013: Again, sorry, there's too little reality in your views. Ask yourself this, "What would I say to the family of a child kidnapped right off his schoolbus?" What would it sound like if you said, "He had to have brought it on himself". If a plane crashes & everyone dies, did they bring it on themselves? If it contained a surgeon flying in to save a life, would you say he got all that he wanted? No, he wanted to save the life of the person he was going to help. I've known too many cock sure young people who cannot give credit to their societies and their luck for partly making them who they are. Jesus admired humility and gratitude. You want to blame people for having bad fortune befall them, despite the fact that it falls on all of us. We don't blame ourselves for this or blame God either, if we know what's good for us. Rather, we cling to Him for His ability to get us through hard times. You want to think your path makes you immune to pain & misfortune. But it comes to us all.
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        Feb 21 2013: Re: "What would I say to the family of a child kidnapped right off his schoolbus?"

        I don't know what you would say, but I would not go there unless I knew that I was speaking to someone of like-mind. It would be too cruel to do so and I do not want to further the parents misconceptions by supporting error.

        I do NOT want to blame anyone. For there to be blame, there must be error. I do not see error because I define time differently than you.

        This is NOT about blame. It's about a soul's self-chosen course and purpose.

        You say that my view is not centered in reality? You (in your self-perceived smallness) see yourself as a victim. This is part of Christian teaching. So you cling to a god who will not step in and protect the child (thus, by inferrence - you)?

        I have faced imminent death at the hands of an aggressor, and using Jesus' teachings, "Fear not" and "Judge not", I found the place of peace within and he did not harm me. I also did this to avoid an imminent and seemingly inescapable rape. He walked out the door, locking it behind him.

        "Turn the other cheek" does not mean to turn it in fear. It means, fear not, and allow the great peace (that you call god) to protect you.

        I have tested my beliefs. Have you tested yours?

        But I will leave this conversation. I"m not here to proselytize. Simply to explain myself with respect to your question. I've done this to the best of my abilities within the framework of 2,000 characters per post.
        • Feb 21 2013: I was asking you to put yourself in the place of whoever would have to talk to the parents. I've also saved myself many times with the teachings of Christ giving me freedom from fear and helping me find eloquence. But there's simply no way anyone in their right mind believes they can manifest anything they want. You are simply ignoring all the things you would like to be able to manifest and cannot, such as to be instantly home instead of stuck in tonight's traffic jam. God helps those who help themselves, but does not on this earth grant us the ability to acquire all we can conceive of. "A man's reach should exceed his grasp,
          Or what's a heaven for?" -Robert Browning

          With the above example of the traffic jam I've just realized I've given you the ability to say again that you don't see time the way I do (as a thief, etc.). So here's another example. As a follower of Christ's teachings, you naturally wish to feed the hungry. Remembering that they exist in the hundreds of millions and get hungry again each day. you would like at least $100billion dollars with which to do that. Can you manifest this? With the help of all others feeling similarly you could, but not by yourself alone. We all have our limitations. Remembering this helps to keep us humble supplicants. We can & do pray for God's help in meeting the needs of the world. And we are not foolish enough to suppose that all who hunger do so because of their inadequacies as human beings. It is undeniably true that fate can be cruel.
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        Feb 22 2013: Christ taught: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Give unto God that which is God's. Money is Caesar's. Wisdom and power are God's.

        As you pointed out, I could have all the money in the world, but it would not feed all the hungry who are born every day. But the wisdom of how to manifest their needs according to the teachings of Jesus would end hunger. So it is people like you to prefer money over God who keep the hungry masses hungry and poor when they could be living in a world of abundance. You would tell them that they have sin in them and that they are powerless and dependent on a God who does not always answer prayers.

        I find it odd that you call yourself a Christian while not believing that Jesus was telling the truth when he said that if you ask for bread, you will not be given a stone.

        I do not believe that humans are inadequate. I have learned that seeing yourself as inadequate is a prayer to god that will be answered according to the request you are making. You can choose to be a humble supplicant if you want, but I prefer to be one-with christ and in control of great power. It's an ability that I have tested over and over and over again - because I practice daily. I have learned that Jesus was telling the truth, and here you are telling me that he was lying. Don't you think that is curious?

        Fate is only cruel if you are not determining your fate, thus you allow cruelty in. It's not "blame". It's acknowledgement of your choice - be it conscious or unconscious due to ignorance. From my perspective, your worldview is very cruel, so you can expect to see cruelty in your world. I, who do not see any imperfection in you, but see a wondrously beautiful and perfect aspect of God (or Christ), have immunized myself. How? The power of "God" is channeled through me and you. The only difference is that I choose how to use that power, and you allow your religious teachers to choose for you.

        "You are the light of the world" (Jesus)
        • Feb 22 2013: You have put a ridiculous amount of words in my mouth that I never said or tried to imply. You've gotten me mixed up with I don't know how many other people you've gotten angry at over the years. Jesus is about love and truth. Wish He were here to cast out your demons. I'm sure He'll find you in the end. Meanwhile, you could try seeing life as it really is and stop assuming such nasty things about people you hardly know. You say you see no imperfection in me after blasting me for all sorts of things I never even begin to do, like - ever. I absolutely never tell people they are powerless. Quite the opposite. You wish to ascribe blame where it truly does not belong. What I was talking about is how an earthquake for instance, or a stray bullet, can kill someone as innocent in Christ's eyes as a new born babe. These sorts of things just happen. Sane people realize this.
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        Feb 22 2013: I think what you are missing here is that I do not have any power over you or others. I have full power within my reality, as do you within yours. I can lead the horse to water, but I cannot make it drink.

        As to the traffic jam? That's a choice too. I wouldn't be in one in the first place (though to be sure, I have spent enough time on the DC beltway to know them intimately. But, if you choose a life with traffic jams, who one is when choosing a life where one is stuck in traffic is a choice. You can choose frustration. I chose to practice manifesting. It was time alone, where I had nothing better to do. Now I choose to live in a place where traffic jams don't happen (except in summer - but still nothing like the DC beltway), but I never feel the need to go anywhere when I know that traffic is heavy. That is a choice of mine. I do not berate you for making a different choice. I do not look down on you.

        My life is wholly different since my awakening. I've lived your world. I was a Christian for 30 years. Now I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus as opposed to the exclusive divinity of Jesus.
        • Feb 22 2013: Oh. of course you have power over others. You keep creating reasons for me to return to this thread. You probably stick pins in lots of people making them feel all sorts of things they wouldn't be feeling otherwise right then, like outrage. Like I said earlier, I don't tell people they are powerless. And plenty of people know how to make horses drink water. But meanwhile, you've just said you can lead a horse to water. Ergo, you've said you have power over others. Where's your self awareness now? Might be time for some self-examination.
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        Feb 22 2013: I can lead a horse to water if the horse is willing to be led. I cannot make the horse drink if the horse is unwilling to drink.

        Meanwhile, Jesus said that as you judge, so you shall be judged. Look at all those judgements of me. Hmmmmmmmmm. You're being very hard on yourself, but that too is your choice.

        I'm not sticking pins in you. You're bumping into your own mistaken beliefs. I cannot make you angry. You alone have the power to choose it or not. I choose not.

        the end
        • Feb 22 2013: Like maybe you weren't judging me? Even for a bunch of stuff I never did & never would do?

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