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Uri Katz
  • Uri Katz
  • Philadelphia, PA
  • United States

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How do we make peace between Israel and Palestine?

Lets take it for granted that both sides are to blame in this conflict, and neither is going to disappear off the face of the earth any time soon.
Answers like "make love not war" would without a doubt work, but I am hoping for a little more substance.
If, like me, you think peace is only achievable in a distant future, but we have to begin working on it now, that is something I would like to hear, especially what we should be doing now.
If you know of a faster track to peace, all the better.

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Closing Statement from Uri Katz

I would like to personally thank all the participants in this conversation.
I think we all recognized the immense difficulty this problem poses. At the same time, most people acknowledged that there is plenty that can be done, not all hope is lost.
Here are a few answers I collected. This is not a summary, only a list of the suggestions I think have the greatest potential to lead to peace. Each stands on it own, but together they have the most power. If we start implementing these ideas, sooner or later the reality in the region will change and a more direct path to peace will become apparent:

1. Instead of broadcasting yet another suicide bomber, give peace a chance by trumpeting every peaceful attempt by both sides.

2. Deflate the issue so that people see it not as cultural & religious issue, but as a localized dispute over resources and land. Then we can ask what a just division of these would be.

3. Recruit moderate religious leader.

4. Understand the other side as best as possible. How are they different? How we are they similar? Make sure your education is fact based and not propaganda.

5. Teach and practice forgiveness, which is key to all true conflict resolution
Also practice: Tolerance, Compassion, Acceptance, Appreciation

6. Remove all hate, and all us-them mentality, from school syllabuses.

7. Both side need to stop looking at themselves as victims. They are not victims of each other or of the larger world. They should take responsibility for their lives and actions.

8. The blame game does not help.

9. Historical arguments are usually used to advance one sided justification for violence and war, as such they are ineffective in the struggle toward peace.

10. Create joint projects such as competitive sporting events.

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  • Ben Jarvis 50+

    • +2
    Feb 12 2013: get out of the west bank, lift the blockades, and *then* severely punish any palestinians who think they still have a reason to attack.
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    Sebastian Pérez

    • +1
    Feb 11 2013: i am still of the people that have a childish dream that with only the desire of make the peace become real it can be possible. But i know that the world is very complex so i think that the world need leave the male chauvinist think in which is the battle of alpha male destroying the rest of the world, they dont find a solution of his problems that wasnt kill others, like Isabel Allende said in her talk, the world need a circular resolution, a democratical solution, we need put both thinks in order to bring a solution, the messange that i'd send to them is they should avoid kill more people, destroy theirs economys and they should have tolerance with others thoughts. All are humans thinking that we have the better solutions but really in very few cases the violence works. (sorry for my english)

  • Ajay Doctor

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: Israel wastes a lot of money on defence and diplomacy with the US and the world at large, how if the allow UN troops at the border while they remain at least a kilometre away to cater to their insecure environment. Accept free trade for the Palestine's and if need be through their traders at fair and subsidised prices for them to improve living standards.

    This will keep both occupied more constructively and nurture human values. The "trading" will allow MOSSAD to be active too and offer a different perspective. Palestine will deter their own to live a more better and peaceful life and focus on opportunities to source, create and self employ.

    UN too will be less exploited by the US & allies and optimize to do the real work.

  • shawn disney 10+

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: Uri: To get down to basics, if you really want Peace between " Nations", there is only one way to get it. It is not through "making nice" , but through a "Rule of Law, not Men", with all the troublesome machinery that goes with it: Agreed-on Law codes, Police, Courts, etc. Just such as have been implemented in all the many great cities of the world (Many of them more populous than some "Countries" of the UN) It is simply unrealistic to believe that a collection of Nations could ever be Stable, or "Law- Abiding " in the absence of any Law. When I was about 15, I remember thinking , as WW2 ended, now we have had two world wars, with something like 160 MILLION mostly innocent people slaughtered for no very clear reasons, and without being able to clearly show who was to" blame", so now we have a chance , with the UN to set up a real world law, and they would no doubt finally make murder illegal. But no, it didn't happen. In fact, we heard stories about how, in the last days of the war, some German soldiers , and pilots, would come over to surrender to the western Allies, under the impression they would be welcomed, re-armed, and sent East again to fight the Soviets as allies. Laughable at the time, but only three years later, it came to pass.
    Anyway, if you want a fast track to peace, world government is it. Otherwise, we can continue to drift from one "Crisis" to another, until finally one nation conquers all. That will be, in effect , the same thing. The Chinese have had this experience, totally , 2000 years ago, before the First Empire.

  • shawn disney 10+

    • +1
    Feb 11 2013: Edward : the reason for bringing up England is because it is simply not accurate to say that Arabs have a (longstanding)burning hatred of Jews. They are well aware that the Jews are their cousins, just like the Brits are ours. The vicious conflicts of the present in the Middle East are very recent, Before WW1, they didn't exist. And the reason for the "burning hatred" is that they feel that they have been mightily swindled by the West , for the benefit of Jews, and that they are not in a position to do very much about it, even though we are all dependent on Oil. Which they might be forgiven for considering "theirs".
    As to how knowledge of this might bring Peace, consider the brilliant advice of Pope John Paul: "If you want Peace, work for Justice". Exactly. The Arabs would forget about their burning hatred if they should ever get "Justice" But in the present political scene, no such possibility is even considered by the West and Israel. It is considered that either the Israelis won their war, and seized territory, Fair and Square, or alternatively, that the UN had the right to give away Arab territory without consulting the inhabitants. It is hard to reconcile either idea with the usual ideas of "Justice". So in the meantime, the Arabs are just saying, "the war isn't over yet".
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      Theodore A. Hoppe 200+

      • 0
      Feb 11 2013: Who was behind the Balfour Declaration?
      "The Balfour Declaration may be the most extraordinary document produced by any Government in world history. It took the form of a letter from the Government of His Britannic Majesty King George the Fifth, the Government of the largest empire the world has even known, on which -- once upon a time -- the sun never set; a letter to an international financier of the banking house of Rothschild who had been made a peer of the realm.
      Arthur Koestler wrote that in the letter "one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third." More than that, the country was still part of the Empire of a fourth, namely Turkey.

      Support for a "national home" for the Jews in Palestine from the government of the greatest empire in the world was in part a fulfillment of the efforts and scheming of Theodore Herzl (1860-1904), descendant of Sephardim (on his rich father's side) who had published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) in Vienna in l896. It outlined the factors which he believed had created a universal Jewish problem, and offered a program to regulate it through the exodus of unhappy and unwanted Jews to an autonomous territory of their own in a national-socialist setting."
      http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html

      http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm

      "There are different theories about why the British agreed to issue the Balfour declaration when they issued it. Some of these "theories," such as the claim that "Jewish money interests" were being courted to help float a loan for Britain or bring the United States into the war are racist inventions. Nonetheless the exact circumstances of the declaration are unclear. One possibility is that the declaration was deliberately contrived to allow the British to renege on earlier promises to France and the Arabs regarding Palestine. Lloyd George reportedly said that British control over Palestine would prevent it from falling into the hands of the agnostic atheistic French."
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      Theodore A. Hoppe 200+

      • 0
      Feb 11 2013: In 1922, Churchill tried to hint broadly that a "national home" was not necessarily a state. According to Lloyd George, however, the meaning was clear:

      There has been a good deal of discussion as to the meaning of the words "Jewish National Home" and whether it involved the setting up of a Jewish National State in Palestine. I have already quoted the words actually used by Mr. Balfour when he submitted the declaration to the Cabinet for its approval. They were not challenged at the time by any member present, and there could be no doubt as to what the Cabinet then had in their minds. It was not their idea that a Jewish State should be set up immediately by the Peace Treaty without reference to the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants. On the other hand, it was contemplated that when the time arrived for according representative institutions to Palestine, if the Jews had meanwhile responded to the opportunity afforded them by the idea of a National Home and had become a definite majority of the inhabitants, then Palestine would thus become a Jewish Commonwealth. The notion that Jewish immigration would have to be artificially restricted in order to ensure that the Jews should be a permanent minority never entered into the heads of anyone engaged in framing the policy. That would have been regarded as unjust and as a fraud on the people to whom we were appealing. (Memoirs, pp 736-7)

      • Albert Reingewirtz

        • 0
        Feb 11 2013: Everybody forget the essential item of the Balfour Declaration: It was just a declaration. If I say at this moment it is day light and not night darkness. This is also a declaration but at least it is true and one can go around outside and not walk into a wall by mistake. The Balfour declaration resulted in nothing, nada,
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          Theodore A. Hoppe 200+

          • 0
          Feb 12 2013: It would be correct to say it resulted in very little by itself , but it framed the conversation going forward. The Rothschilds' involvement in a Jewish homeland is evident in many ways from this point forward.

          In the late-19th century, persecution of Jews in Europe followed by the creation of the Zionist movement, led to international support for the establishment in Palestine of a homeland for the Jewish people on the site of the ancient kingdoms. Following the British conquest of Syria, the Balfour Declaration in World War I and the formation of the Mandate of Palestine, Aliyah (Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel) increased and gave rise to Arab–Jewish tensions and a collision of the Arab and Jewish nationalist movements. Israeli independence in 1948 was marked by massive migration of Jews from both Europe and the Muslim countries to Israel, and of Arabs from Israel leading to the extensive Arab–Israeli conflict.[1] About 42% of the world's Jews live in Israel today.

          Edmond de Rothschild financed two of the original settlements in Israel, Rishon LeZion in Tel-Aviv and Zikhron Ya’akov in Carmel. By 1934, the year of Edmund de Rothschild’s death, 125,000 acres of land and more than 40 settlements were purchased under the auspices of the Rothschild’s Palestine Jewish Colonization Association (PICA). Edmond de Rothschild became known as the “Father of the Yishuv” because of his involvement in early Israeli settlements.
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      Theodore A. Hoppe 200+

      • 0
      Feb 11 2013: "Soon after the Balfour Declaration was issued, it became clear to the British that it was inconvenient to implement a "National Home" for the Jewish people in Palestine. None of the persons who had issued that declaration in 1917 were in power. Britain had meanwhile, reneged on their commitment to give Syria to the Arabs, in favor of their commitment to give Syria to France based on the Sykes Picot agreement. The Hashemites were no longer in power in Saudi Arabia either. The Mandate had created intense resentment, and riots had occurred in Palestine in 1920 and 1921. Motions were raised in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords to repeal the Balfour declaration. The motion was defeated in commons with the help of Churchill, Ormsby Gore and others, but it was felt that a compromise would be necessary. The "as implemented" mandate would be somewhat different from what the Zionists and the framers of the mandate had envisioned. Churchill, possibly with the help of Herbert Samuel, was given the thankless task of reframing the mandate in such a way that it would placate the Arabs, but still give Britain an excuse to keep Palestine from the French in the form of the "homeland for the Jewish people"

      The British government decided to detach Palestine east of the Jordan river, constituting most of the area of Palestine, and form the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan, as shown in the map at right."

      http://www.mideastweb.org/1922wp.htm
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    Ken brown 30+

    • +3
    Feb 11 2013: Peace can only come from the small man looking at his opposite looking back at him with his family aswel. It will not come from the UN or the US or anyone but them.

  • Albert Reingewirtz

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: Arabs who write in the official Arab media, yes.

  • Albert Reingewirtz

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: You must have a problem with yourself since you can’t accept the fact as they are not as you would like them to be. I am a realist who read what is said by Arabs, not by people who mistakenly think they know what is without any foundation to their belief.
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      Arkady Grudzinsky 50+

      • 0
      Feb 11 2013: I've posted this quote from Talmud before and it is applicable again - it's one of my favorite. "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are."

      Re: "I am a realist who read what is said by Arabs..."

      All Arabs?
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    Arkady Grudzinsky 50+

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: Uri,

    What do you think of views like this: http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=282661 ? Do they have public support in Israel?
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      Uri Katz

      • +1
      Feb 11 2013: Sadly yes, but not a majority I believe. The recent elections gave 59 out of 120 mandates to parties who openly declare their willingness and desire to return to the negotiation table. Out the remaining 61, the biggest part, with 31 mandates, is not entirely opposed to the idea.
      There will always be those who hate, and who use self-righteous arguments to support their hate. We need to focus on the moderates, and make sure their voice and actions speak louder!
      Check this out:
      http://www.ted.com/talks/israel_and_iran_a_love_story.html
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        Arkady Grudzinsky 50+

        • 0
        Feb 11 2013: Re: "We need to focus on the moderates, and make sure their voice and actions speak louder!"

        Interesting idea... Moderates need to speak louder... Moderation is an enigmatic concept. "Extreme moderation" is, obviously, and oxymoron :-)

        Often, solutions to our problems lies in those self-refuting ideas like "moderation", "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek". But it seems to be impossible to get them right.
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    Arkady Grudzinsky 50+

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: I personally like the quote from Noam Chomsky: "Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it."

    I have a feeling, this other quote may have a solution in it: "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." But I do not understand myself how this is supposed to work in real world.
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    Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: This discussion remained educative for me. I shall prefer to add some humor here. This is from an email that an Israeli friend had send me.

    TO WHOM DOES THE LAND OF ISRAEL BELONG??
    An Israeli Sense of Humor at the United Nations set the record straight.

    An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile.

    A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses:
    When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, "What a good opportunity to have a bath!"
    Moses removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.

    The Palestinian representative at the UN jumped up furiously and shouted, "What are you talking about?
    The Palestinians weren't there then."

    The Israeli representative smiled and said, "And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech."

  • prakhar porwal

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: A two-state solution is the only viable solution to
    the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and therefore
    negotiators must take a close look at the land
    swaps necessary for a negotiated settlement.
    These maps outline three possible land-swap scenarios, followed by a map of the Geneva Initiative for comparison. The core principle of
    these swaps is to reconcile the Palestinian
    demand for a return to the pre-1967 lines with
    Israel’s desire to include as many of the West
    Bank’s 300,000 settlers in Israel proper as
    possible. Any feasible scenario must include Israel's granting Palestinians arable land from
    within Israel’s pre-1967 border in exchange for
    annexed settlement blocs (clusters of
    settlements). It is essential that, for any land
    annexed by Israel as part of a deal, Palestinians
    receive equal amounts of land.

  • shawn disney 10+

    • 0
    Feb 11 2013: Pope John Paul had the best political suggestion I have ever heard. "If you want Peace, work for Justice". Both an exhortation and a program. As to carrying it out in the Arab-Israel case, I guess the place to start would be to educate everyone about the history of how the problem developed., noting that it didn't exist under the Turks. And we had better start with the Turk empire, not 1948. Or we could just ignore it, and it would be solved eventually by demographics, sort of like the Apartheid situation in S. Africa. I'm assuming that Globablization has doomed the National State, so you don't really have to worry about either "Israel" or "Palestine"

  • Jamahl Peavey

    • +1
    Feb 11 2013: I think it would be better to focus on leaving the world a better place for everyones children.

  • ZX Style 20+

    • +4
    Feb 10 2013: PEACE IS POSSIBLE!

    In jeruzalem and other major cities, palestinians and jews can live in the same neighbourhoods.
    So if they can in the major cities why not in the whole country?

    What is required?
    - palestinians should give up idea's on having their own palestinian state
    - jews should give up idea of having a jewish state.
    - make a new country call it Kanaan(biblical name of Israel when jews arrived after egypt)
    - the new country is based on equality

    And viola its done.
    Where can i collect my nobel price?

    Why is my simple idea not executed?
    Jews believe with enough pressure they can eventually do anything they want.
    Palestinians hope with enough screaming arab countries help invade israel and make it an palestinian countrie.
    We as the world can say hey, now its enough it's a country for both, and man yourself up.

    • shawn disney 10+

      • 0
      Feb 11 2013: Interesting idea; how about developing it further? Under the post WW1 Mandate, there was neither Israel nor Palestine. Both were sort of supervised by the British. We could update the Mandate scheme via the UN. Let all the countries with colonial experience volunteer to enter a lottery for who should administer the area.
      The Loser would be honored with the responsibility. Perhaps for a fee, which would surely be less than the cost of the present "War", or whatever it is callled.

      • ZX Style 20+

        • 0
        Feb 11 2013: Haha, that would be great. I hope my country will not be the losing one.
        But the problem is Israel as a nation is to powerfull to be held down by most nations.
        So you need at least 2 medium sized countries.
        That's likely why not much is changing now.
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      Kate Blake 50+

      • 0
      Feb 11 2013: Exactly what I suggested some days ago - see down below.

  • Albert Reingewirtz

    • 0
    Feb 10 2013: Do you ever complain about casualties caused by drones either by mistake or from collateral casualties? No othrer army is as careful to avoid civilian casualties as th4e IDF is. It goes to the extreme unheard off of phoning every phone in neighborhood when responding to missile launchers.

  • Albert Reingewirtz

    • +1
    Feb 10 2013: There will never be peace, forget it! Arab states got rid of all the Jews. They are safe absorbed by Israel. The Arab refugees Arab states created are not absorbed because they use them as weapons to destroy Israel. Get used to it. Have you ever heard voices of peace in any Arab state? It is practically unanimous. Yesterday one journalist wrote that they should look at Israel to learn to have states speaking of Israel’s successes. The hate mail he received! Will he continue living? You are a blind man “They have eyes and they won’t see” was written for you. There will never be a time when Arab state do not want to destroy Israel. In fact Arabs regard any land that once was ruled by Islam as a land that must in time return to Islam. Israel is first on the list then comes Spain, Sicily, the Balkans. The rest of the world is targeted to have to “submit” to Islam. Keep dreaming!

    • shawn disney 10+

      • +1
      Feb 11 2013: Albert: Keep calm. Your references to Arab history are seriously mistaken. Arabs are related to Jews , after all,, and the Koran mentions them favorably. The Arab empire treated the Jews very much better than Europe ever did. And your idea about what consitutes "Arab Land" is eerily reminiscent of what the Israeli"s claim about the extent of "Israel Irredenta".
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      Arkady Grudzinsky 50+

      • +1
      Feb 11 2013: I can't stand intolerant people...

      • Albert Reingewirtz

        • +1
        Feb 11 2013: I quote Arab political scientists when I say that Israel, Sicily and Andalous are lands that have to return to Islamic rule in the future, not me. The land of Israel it is true is the home land of the Jews, not New York or Rome. You probably live where you have way much history than Jews have in Israel. Jews in Arab land had to pay the Jizia, a special tax to be able remain Jews or convert to Islam. A Jew could never win a court of law against a Muslim. You are right it was a bit better than in lands of Christianity but not by much.
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      Uri Katz

      • 0
      Feb 11 2013: How is this an answer to the question? Be creative: what would it take to create peace?
      See this link for example of Muslims who do not want to destroy Israel or Spain (admittedly Persians, but we can find some Arabs supporting this cause as well): http://www.ted.com/talks/israel_and_iran_a_love_story.html. Making the mistake of letting Al Qaedai speak for all Muslims is intolerant.
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    Casey Christofaris 10+

    • 0
    Feb 10 2013: We need to properly define peace. What one finds to be peaceful others can define as not peaceful. I personally find shooting a gun to be very peaceful and relaxing. Other most certainly see this as violence. Who are you to take my peace away and replace it with your idea of peace

  • Albert Reingewirtz

    • +1
    Feb 10 2013: It follows that nothing Israel can do since “The Palestinians” have two charters spelling exactly their aim: The destruction of the Jewish state of Israel and replacing it with an Islamic state. Of course, Abbas doesn’t recognize The Jewish State he wants destroyed. So to answer your question let me be very Jewish. Why do you ask me? Ask The Palestinians and the rest of the Arab universe. Israel, in order to get peace gave away land a few time it’s actual size and got what in exchange? Missile rain, terror that includes slicing a baby’s throat for being Jewish. Israel should do what it has done up to now defend itself because as Golda saw it: When Arabs put down their guns there will be peace. If Israel put’s down it’s guns there won’t be an Israel. It is real simple. Now let me ask you something too. Why are you concerned about Israel? Do the Kurds deserve a little bit of your attention? What about the Africans suffering from the Arabs in Darfur? What about the Cypriots cleansed out of north Cyprus and replaced by imported Turks? Tibet? I can go on and on but I won’t. I read “the concern” about “The Poor Palestinians” who in fact relish terror to the point of naming streets in the name of mass murderers and paying them salaries while in Israeli jails while crying that they have no money. So? Uri? Have you got no shame?
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      Uri Katz

      • +2
      Feb 10 2013: I am concerned with Israel because my family lives there. When rockets where fired at Jerusalem a few months ago, I had to take shelter. I thought my name would be a dead giveaway, but everybody keeps asking why I am meddling in other people's affairs.
      I know there are plenty of atrocities elsewhere, plenty of holocausts and wars that have nothing to do with Jews. I also know that a conflict is extremely hard to understand from the outside. Darfur, Tibet, Cyprus, etc. are all sensitive issues and if there were 3 or 4 of me I could make a small effort to promote peace there as well.
      To answer a few of your remarks: 1) Israel gave up more that its own size for peace with Egypt that up to this day has proven extremely beneficial to it (only time will tell what the new regime will do); 2) Not all Palestinians are evil terrorist, some of them (the majority I hope) just want to live full productive lives with their loving families. This is a fact so stop arguing about it! 3) Any route towards peace will have to eradicate terrorism, which has no excuse whatsoever, but its better to forgive and love than hate and fight. 4) Israel cannot put down its guns today, but wouldn't it be great if it could tomorrow. 5) My only shame is that it took me this long to start getting involved.
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    Juliette Zahn 50+

    • +3
    Feb 10 2013: Here's a start on... the right path:

    https://www.facebook.com/IsraelLovesPalestine
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      Uri Katz

      • 0
      Feb 10 2013: Already a member, but I encourage others to join as well, even if you are from other parts of the world. Show you support peace!

  • Albert Reingewirtz

    • 0
    Feb 10 2013: Predictably reading the comments it is the fault of Israel even if it is not. Israel absorbed all the Jewish refugees cleansed out of all Arab lands. The Arabs maintain the refugees they created in 1948 in camps or as the newly invented “Palestinians” nation as a weapon to destroy The Jewish State of Israel. To make peace one has to come to a table and talk. Abbas the un elected ruler (the usual in most Arab lands) refuses to even recognize the Jewish state to come and seat at a negotiating table. It follows of course that it is the fault of Israel. You all have defined yourself by this strange logic.
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      Uri Katz

      • +2
      Feb 10 2013: Fine, I follow your logic and conclude the Palestinians are to blame, what is to be done next? Answer from the point of view of Israel, Palestine & the rest of the world. I am truly interested in some fresh ideas.
      Just a point to think about: assume I argue with my girlfriend because she blames me for cheating on here even though I did nothing of the kind. Let's say I was out buying her gifts and tending to the sick. She is 100% wrong, but I still have a choice of how to react and handle the situation.

  • Jamahl Peavey

    • +1
    Feb 10 2013: I am a big fan of Einstein and I was reading one of his correspondence where he said he was going to visit Palestine. When did the state of Palestine stop existing?
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      Uri Katz

      • +1
      Feb 10 2013: When the state of Israel was formed I guess. Forward your complaints to the British :-).
      For my part, I was born long after all that, and I hate to harp on the mistakes of my predecessors, I'd rather focus on leaving the world a better place for my children.

      • Jamahl Peavey

        • +1
        Feb 11 2013: Native Americans should forward their complains to the British as well. Liberians should forward their complaints to the Americans. African Americans should forward their complains to governments who benefited from the slave trade. It is easy to consider crimes complaints when some else is the victim. No ones pain as a victim should be forgotten because this is the seeds of violence.

        There is no forward on a circle of violence and selective issues that should never be forgotten. Everything on a circle is backwards so we must learn and address the issues of the past.
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    Doris de Leeuw

    • +2
    Feb 10 2013: by keeping our noses out of Der businesses.
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