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Love, and be loved.
On a Planet Moving at 70,000 miles per hour, in a vast omniverse of hundred millions of expanding galaxies, each suspended with mathematical precision from a most mysterious “nothingness”....the chances of two humans finding each other and happiness at the same time and place is probably somewhere in the order of one trillionth of a trillion, (just a wild guess on my part:). Yet, “love was there 100,000 years before there was language” (Dennis Dutton). And the “ biggest life prize ” is finding and marrying our love (Dr. Helen Fisher).
Humanity has experienced the fastest growth and change in every aspect of science, and technology within the past two centuries, since a fascinating piece of literature (pride and prejudice) was published which dealt with marriage in the society of the landed gentry....
The world has changed, but life remains the same. Let us now sit around this proverbial ‘camp fire’, as our ancestors did millions of years ago, (even before Jane dreamt up Darcy, or Berners-Lee typed “this is for everyone” ;-), and embark upon shaping a vision of a good marriage for our new society of mobile gentry.
What are your ideas?
WELCOME ALL - please write here before, during and after........a happy V day.
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Juliette Zahn 50+
There certainly so many forms in which love manifests itself, that it is easy to maintain one's heart and soul 'full' just by staying connected to the 'wholeness'..... only I am not entirely convinced that is the intended for this form of life.
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
I do not think of the end so much. But at times, I imagine a recliner in a garden overlooking a sea, sun, playful sounds of kids, a breeze and a dream like recollection of small moments of life. With the imagination comes a smile, one that comes just before sleep comes.
Derek Young 30+
Juliette Zahn 50+
Your question is really a great one. Why is there so much struggle in this realm and why does this backbone to a happy life seem to be so illusive and difficult to grab a hold of?? I am learning every day..and fresh knowledge just in from Fran's comment here today, is shining some light on this: the target is agape not eros..and of course others and Fran have pointed out that self-love is the first and foremost requirement before one can effectively love anyone else...understood.
However we need to learn the difference between self-love, egoism, narcissism and selfishness..then there is unity, becoming one, and oneness to understand...and last but not least we need to make sure we don't lose our sense of self within the united oneness-ness of it all..and to top it all off: there is no schools for this anywhere !! :-):-)
fran sullivan
fran sullivan
Juliette Zahn 50+
Welcome!!
I am reading your comment and it is very helpful to know of the two kinds of love, eros and agape.
One question; where you wrote "eros has to do with man,nature,plants as physical things,biological things"....is eros only in men and not in women?!
There is so much to learn......so far agape sounds like the 'real' one....and just from reading your description I am thinking that agape contains eros in it, but eros is a much smaller subsidiary of agape and hence the one that runs out (in all senses of the word ;-) and lets us down.
( Learning this much from you is already preparing me to respond to Derek's question above " Why is there struggle in the realm of love?" What do you think? :-)
Juliette Zahn 50+
Juliette Zahn 50+
http://ed.ted.com/lessons/inside-okcupid-the-math-of-online-dating-christian-rudder
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Juliette Zahn 50+
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
I also wonder whose perception of me is the true 'me'. Like probability waves collapse and an observation emerge, may be my true 'me' comes to exist to someone who prefers to see me with love.
Juliette Zahn 50+
Love is what 'one' feels just because 'you' are present, when 'you' are just being 'you'.
(Love is not a treatment, but when one is genuine in love, then it guides the lover to treat their beloved with human kindness, and treat them as they would like to be treated themselves.)
(My thumbs up may take a week to show up for you, when TED renews quotas)
Colleen Steen 500+
You seem to be focusing on the love between two people, as you speak of marriage in your introduction and quote...
" the "biggest life prize ” is finding and marrying our love (Dr. Helen Fisher).""
I sincerely hope I am not off topic by expanding the concept of love to include ALL people......EVERYONE.
I agree with Pabitra, that loving one "self" is an important beginning to sharing love. We cannot give something away, if we do not have it in our hearts.
That being said, my mom always used to say, love is a feeling we can carry in our heart ALWAYS...ALL WAYS. She used to remind us that some folks try to squeeze love (giving, receiving, joy, enjoyment) into certain holidays, then the rest of the year, forget about those special words and deeds which express LOVE.
In my humble perception, carrying love in my heart is important in every moment of the life adventure:>)
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
Love has many "shades", including everything from those we casually interact with here on TED, to those we meet in our everyday life, good friends, family, romantic partner etc. I believe that some of the underlying elements of love are respect, kindness, compassion, and empathy, which we can give and receive from ALL people.....yes.....no......maybe?
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
The first lesson in love is in loving one's own self and I believe this has no conflict with altruism rather this makes one humble and compassionate to exercise an inclusivity that ultimately leads to altruism.
Colleen Steen 500+
Writing the question yesterday caused me to ponder as well. I truly believe that we need to have something in ourselves, for ourselves, before we can genuinely share it with others. People sometimes seperate the love of self, and call it "selfish", from the love of others, which they call "selfless". Some folks apparently believe that we can be one or the other.
The feeling, emotion, or underlying foundation of love, I believe to be flowing energy, which we can tap into and experience at any given time. It is unlimited, and flowing through all of us at the same time. We can experience unselfish regard and concern for others AT THE SAME TIME as we have regard, concern, respect, compassion, empathy and kindness for ourselves. Having it in ourselves, for ourselves, helps us understand more about the process of genuinely, authentically sharing it with others, which your story effectively demonstrates:>)
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
Juliette Zahn 50+
Welcome !! I have appreciated reading your writings on other topics and I am glad to have you join our effort here. I do hear you. Your points are so important that I feel they deserve being expanded on. Would you be able to elaborate on it so that I can understand more?
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
I had my share of problems here in TED in the past but the only reason I am here is that I benefit immensely from observing free thinking of people and get inspired by the ideas that range from outrageously brilliant to shockingly honest. I am not sure how important my points are, but I can assure you that I speak from my heart.
We all want to be loved first and wish to choose whom to love. That way, 'be loved' is our priority compared to love. Each of us is at the center of the universe where we qualify to be loved for no reason and decreed to judge others for a reason to love.
I think we should first be loving ourselves. That is no mean feat. I think we need to forgive a lot in order to love ourselves and accept ourselves as truly how we are. If we can do that we do not need to pick and choose anymore and we start loving people simply as they are without ever expecting them to love us back. The necessity of reciprocation and its related stress goes that way. Love is no favor.
In my own small way I felt that there is nothing stronger than love and with it starts everything positive in life. I also felt that it is not necessary to attach religious significance to such realization, it simply works in the best interest for humanity.
Juliette Zahn 50+
I sense a quality to your perception on life that fosters a generous positive flow. Yet on the surface it presents as a calm lake with a clarity that crisply mirrors the beauty of nature all around. The honesty and value shows through and transfers over the expression. It resonates and I treasure this writing from your view point. I mark it in hopes for others who may walk down this hallway to read with "thumbs up". Now I find myself vulnerably wondering where I may appear within that outrageously brilliant to shockingly honest range to such a keenly observant eye. What I have noticed is that sometimes the perception that others have of us, is what seems to count more than what we truly are, in determining the course of our life...and overcoming the difference between what we truly are and how we are perceived from outside ourselves seems to be the challenge.
Mary M. 50+
Complimentary personalities:
They say opposites attract.
I have come to learn that while this is true in certain cases, when it comes to long term relationships, especially marriage, we need to have more things in common than not in common.
There are personality types out there who are constantly on the look out for a complimentary partner............however, oftentimes the poor victim who falls for the trap of "we are complimentary" ends up hurt in ways I cannot fully describe on here.
Here is what Scott Wetzler Ph.D. writes in a book I'm reading:
"Perhaps you are too much the complement of a passive-aggressive man by being either a Victim (you take your lumps and don't fight back effectively), a Rescuer (you do too much for him, fall for his excuses and mother him) or an implacable Manager (you won't take no for an answer).
It is good to know a little bit of psychology and know what kind of personality type you are in order to really understand why you act the way you do around others, and why others act in a certain way around you.
Juliette, what has been your observations regarding complementary personalities?
Juliette Zahn 50+
Yeah:) the many pitfalls of sayings and labelings...
Like I am trying to communicate with our friend W. in this thread, there is more than biology, chemistry and physics that goes into being human. Although we have been living on this planet and took off from the rest of creation and embarked upon the long arduous task of becoming human 2.5 Million years ago, we seem to be facing a steep climb over the threshold to finally reach our evolved human-hood (?).
Opposites attract is a true phenomenon in physics. And physics is just one of the many essential elements for a healthy human dynamic.(Like in Tina's song)"This is where personality comes in" (Dr. Fisher)
My observation regarding complementary personalities.....is when two people come together and as they start to speak....a constructive thought forms and evolves between them....and manifests.
Kieran Preissler
When this feeling hits me, I become overwhelmed with this feeling that everything is going to be alright; that I have reached true happiness, even if just for a moment; that I'm surrounded by friends who love me and I love back.
Mary M. 50+
Now the feeling comes, but usually when I am around my kids.
Juliette Zahn 50+
I love reading your entry because it tells me that you have the essential ingredients:
1. Capacity for the experience of "unexplainable feeling of gratitude and thankfulness and joy"
2. even while "Overwhelmed"
3. Awareness that you have 1 & 2
4. Trust "that everything is going to be alright"
My way of remembering the four ingredients, will be to make a COAT out of it (I noticed that the first letter of these words make up COAT) that way it is easier to keep it in mind with, as a tool. This coat can make us fly:).
"I have reached true happiness, even if just for a moment"...even birds enjoy a combination of flying and resting, so it's the moments that make ALL the difference.
Glad you joined us & appreciate every thought and suggestion that you might bring in to shaping a new idea on the topic :-)
Mary M. 50+
What ya doin?? I asked.....knowing full well that something wonderful was about to happen......
"We're looking for the international space station.....it's going to cross over us shortly"
By the time they had finished answering me, my entire family was outside.....and we all looked up and waited.
All of the sudden, out of the southern sky, came a bright white light moving in a northeastly pattern.......so very cool.....it crossed the sky, and soon it was gone..........on it's way around the earth one more time.
Believe it or not, there was something lovely about that moment.
The awe I felt knowing humans are floating up there and orbiting our earth at such high speeds left me speechless.
Having visited the Kennedy Space Center recently also gave me an appreciation for their work.
The only thing that would have made that moment more magical is if I had been inside the ISS myself. :)
What does all of this have to do with LOVE??
Well, we love our neighbors. They are a young couple. And, they do everything together. She is not much of a science person, and prefers simple things. He is an astronomy buff......They have shown me how important it is to take time and do things with your spouse, even if it's not your cup of tea.
She is very happy go lucky, he is a bit reserved. But, their love for each other is undeniable. She is always excited to talk about what her husband has discovered, even if she doesn't understand it herself.
The "enlightened self-interest" she displays benefits everyone that comes in contact with her.
Perhaps if she had stayed inside last night and allowed him to step out alone, he would have quietly stood and looked up, and noone else would have noticed him. But the fact she came out with him and was excited allowed us to also enjoy the moment. Win/Win
Out of characters...Did you enjoy???
Juliette Zahn 50+
Thank you for the story....I enjoy reading it (a lot) and wish you had more characters....I know what you mean with astronomy....when I was little, sky watching was a summer night activity with the whole family....those days were when summer vacation lasted 'forever'.....and magic was abundantly supplied by life. And the ISS is a real intrigue for us as is the moon.....which has never seized to captivate us even though it is so close to the Earth and most predictably:-) seen on schedule!!
It is nice to read about those experiences we never have, sometimes even more than nice because those are the times that we get to vicariously experience something that otherwise we would never know. I am beginning to understand a little more about what you meant when you said "enlightened self-interest"....examples help:-)
Mary M. 50+
I'm glad you enjoyed the little example.
Enlightened self-interest is really in my opinion "sacrifice". Those who truly love others, are willing to make sacrifices in order to move forward in relationships.
The problem is that sometimes the person with the enlightened self-interest is surrounded by the kinds of individuals who do not appreciate such sacrifices. Sometimes they will go in and sabotage the effects of the individual who is kind.
In marriage Juliette, you really have to understand the personality of the other person prior to making a commitment to marriage. I am not talking about little quircks and mannerisms, I am talking about personalities that can undermine a marriage........if you want to see what I am talking about, you can read through the conversation I am hosting on passive aggressive behavior.
Love, however, trumps everything. When you love an individual, you can forgive alot.
But there is that fine line of losing oneself in the process. Where it matters more to keep the other person around you than to be you. In marriage all decisions come with a price.......
Fortunate are the individuals who get to marry their best friend, and who have good communication throughout their marriage.
Love and marriage and relationships as a whole are so very complicated.
I'm still trying to figure it out....still....after more the 15 years of marriage.
These types of conversations are excellent because I can learn through reading other's points of view.
Juliette Zahn 50+
I hear you on "Enlightened self-interest is really in my opinion "sacrifice". Those who truly love others, are willing to make sacrifices in order to move forward in relationships." It is like keeping our eyes on the bigger picture; the ultimate win:win. I am sure this is the skill that is repeatedly tested in any long term partnership...and I am reminded of "cherry Blossom", which is a beautiful film (subtitled) on "sacrifice"...and how one wishes to have an experience only when it can be shared with and not without..
I agree that love is the essential ingredient that "trumps" everything....so the question becomes how to figure the precision part (where I have a feeling W.Ying's ideas will be greatly helpful, If I could only understand)...we need to learn about complementary personalities...
Sky Kang
Love is a really complecated thing, as everybody knows.
Everyone in our universe, even the smallest babies and oldest people have felt the emotion of loving and being loved,
but no one ever knows and will know the exact meaning of love.
Because love doesn't need to be defined.
It just needs to be felt.
Juliette Zahn 50+
I am so glad that you brought in LOVE, the noun. And I totally agree that love does not need to be defined : Only "felt". Actually it is not definable in our understanding. Love (the noun) is invisible, just as is Love the verb.
As humans, we have an insatiable urge to understand everything. So for example, tree, rock, fire, fruit, animal, water, other humans, moon, mars, we go there, we take a sample, we look, we listen, we touch, we measure, we analyze, we spend hours and years thinking about it, contemplating it (at least those of us who admit that in order to understand anything we must spend time with it, and get to know it).
We don't understand something that is and at the same time is not graspable within our senses and our intellectual calculations; since love is not visible. So that is where the "heart" comes in. But it is not the heart (as in Tina Turner's song) but it is our intuition, which is our only connection to our own essence. We know love with our being. When that happens then our mind can be "in peace" and let go with it's mad search.
I feel that love is simple, and we complicate it:-) This is why the more we pursue the noun the farther we get; and this could be a good thing; as in enlightened or a bad thing: as in frustrated, depending on the direction.
As far as it being an emotion, I used to think the same until very recently. Now I find that love is not an emotion. Emotions are part of our human system. LOVE the verb is a drive = a directional energy. Emotions steer us, and more often into wrong direction (shortsighted, selfish actions) or they can drive us into bliss ( farsighted all around - win win actions and results). So this is where we have the control: we are free, as individuals, to choose our intention.
I very much appreciate your insight,viewpoint, input & hope you help shape this idea along the way with us:-):-) What are your thoughts on what / how the "felt" love can be sustained long term?
W. Ying 10+
Please have my new answer to your:
"....the chances of two humans finding each other and happiness at the same time and place is probably somewhere in the order of one trillionth of a trillion, (just a wild guess on my part)."
It is because we have ULTRA-HIGH ACCURACY ---- One of our instincts or our ancestors' successful experiences saved in DNA.
(For ULTRA-HIGH ACCURACY, see the 1st article, point 11, at https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D&id=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D%21283&sc=documents)
Juliette Zahn 50+
You haven't heard from me because I am reading and reading all your writings again...trying to understand. I also keep reading my own words, to make sure they are transferring what I am meaning to say and those of others.
And actually, the funny thing is that, I came back here having decided to take out (remove, delete) the exact sentence "the chances of two humans finding each other and happiness at the same time and place is probably somewhere in the order of one trillionth of a trillion, (just a wild guess on my part)." Then I noticed you had included my quote. When I read that this is what you are referring to as "ULTRA-HIGH ACCURACY" I found it promising. Does this mean that the universe works with ultra-high accuracy in terms of bringing the complementary matching ingredients together in the right time and place? Is this what you mean ?
W. Ying 10+
Thank you very much for your interest in my article.
My "ULTRA-HIGH ACCURACY" is derived from the simple biology learned in high school.
I am sorry that I am unable to answer your question about the universe more than that I learned in high school.
Good luck!
Juliette Zahn 50+
I get the biology and our (DNA) molecules containing the genetic information that produces our physical forms, or we could say the DNA contains the instruction codes (software), which turns 2 multi potential cells into our trillion-cell - physical body (hardware) which we inhabit, as fully formed adults. This is what you refer to as"ULTRA-HIGH ACCURACY". The same "ULTRA-HIGH ACCURACY" process takes place in a tree, a blade of grass, a fly and all other animals. There are things that set humans apart : our OS. Hearing the nine talks I listed help us shed light on what facilitates or undermines our forward progress as societies and as a world, which is essentially interdependent. Dr. Fisher uses the example of "two feet" that can get us far when they work in harmony. Wellbeing depends on this.
Feyisayo Anjorin 50+
Love makes this world wonderful.
Juliette Zahn 50+
Thankfully, despite all, " love makes this world wonderful " and beauty and truth keep this world alive. Listening to Denis Dutton's Talk, I couldn't help wonder if humanity had come to enjoy hundreds of thousand years of cumulative harmony and bliss before the fast gadgets and mobility...and if we would have a glimpse into their world, we would feel a great void when we realize the delusions which we have traded our true meaning for... In just a few hundred years, we seem to have so successfully confused the instincts that had been there 1.5 billion years. Is this possible? Could we have broken our hard wired compasses?? What about our consciousness? Elevated?!
Mary M. 50+
I will be contributing to it a bit later.
But, I wanted to tell you that there is another conversation on "enlightened self-interest" that Derek is hosting, and alot of what is needed in marriages today is precisely that.........enlightened self interest......I will come back and expound.....I'm off to practice some enlightened self-interest with my family. Toodles.
Here is a song for you and your guests in the meantime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqdTAynpQ0w
Mary
Juliette Zahn 50+
Thank you for the nourishing song. I love it! Your video suggestion is particularly good....since we see the words (sang in 1958) as well as hear them...Very thoughtful of you..... "A lot of what is needed in marriages today is "enlightened self-interest" (beautifully highlighted) and tuning into more songs like this :) that " keep the stars coming out"..... I will look for the conversation and for Derek (with the pure self interest of getting him to deposit his inspiring words of wisdom here as well;-)I hope you enjoy swimming in your oceans with family...
I am looking forward to your visits and shaping of this concept together along.
W. Ying 10+
Thank you very much.
I am sorry that you feel confused.
Perhaps I misunderstood something.
Let me think it over again carefully.
Juliette Zahn 50+
W. Ying 10+
"Love and beloved" is the force of SYMBIOSIS, which makes humankind's DNA alive.
Or, there is no human in the world.
(For SYMBIOSIS, see the 1st article, points 4-8, at https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D&id=D24D89AE8B1E2E0D%21283&sc=documents)
Juliette Zahn 50+
I hope I haven't misspelled my title!! I meant to write " Love and Be loved " as in verbs!
I totally agree with them being "the" force. I have a real hard time getting your point and I read the writing on your link....but I feel more confused! Would you help me understand!!
W. Ying 10+
Dear Juliette,
Thanks.
I am sorry that I got you feel confused.
Could I say in the way:
To love ---- To SYMBIOSIZE (To parent, to be a husband(major), to make a friend).
To be loved ---- To be SYMBIOSIZED (To be a baby/daughter/son, to be a wife(major), to be made a friend).
Wrong?
Juliette Zahn 50+
It is not a matter of right or wrong:) My problem is that there is a barrier in my way of seeing your point. Still I am very much eager to understand. So as long as you try to pull from your end (try to describe what you mean to say) and I push from mine (I continue to follow your words with my open mind) and hopefully the barrier blocking my ability to grasp your meaning will be removed, then I will be able to see your point clearly.....and if we don't remove the wall, then my hope is to build a door in this wall with an inside handle on it, so I could come out and look from your point of view.
Please do keep trying //^ we have 25 days :-)
Juliette Zahn 50+
I have been reading your writings over many times and letting it sit on my mind for a while. I do understand your points now. They make sense and actually what you say does fall right along the same path of my concepts, thoughts and personal values. I wish I spoke Chinese, and could have read it in your original language, and understood sooner :-) but thank you for translating it into English so I could read it at all! :-)
Kate Blake 50+
The most powerful love I've ever experienced is the totally unconditional, all-knowing but all-accepting love of those very advanced beings. Those who walk the talk, who share their joy and wisdom with all comers equally and without exception. If you ever get the opportunity to meet such a person you will feel the warmth and acceptance immediately.
Juliette Zahn 50+
I am completely aligned with all your words here:-) And look forward to seeing how we can shape a new concept for marriage for the modern human life together.
Kate Blake 50+
Juliette Zahn 50+
" Love comes in many forms so let's all spread our love and light "