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Robert Winner

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Proposed high school required oath in Arizona

HB 2467 in Arizona if passed would required high school seniors to take a oath to support the Constitution to be eligble to graduate.

Do you feel this is right .... is it Constitutional?

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    Jan 25 2013: As a non-lawyer, I wouldn't know if it is constitutional. But I wouldn't expect it to accomplish anything in terms of students' conduct after graduation. The laws of the land apply to all adults regardless of the oaths to which they may have sworn.

    In fact, do high school kids study the Constitution closely enough even to understand what is in it that they would be swearing to uphold? Adults do not know the Constitution well enough to understand what is constitutional and what isn't, and experts who do know the Constitution disagree on the matter.

    This is one of those things that might sound good to some people but which, as a practical matter, is probably meaningless.
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    Jan 25 2013: I C…….so, which one of our ridiculous, moronic elected officials decided to waste our tax dollars on this nonsense?
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    Jan 25 2013: As a high school student I can tell you right now that it would be absolutely useless in most if not all cases.
    Teenagers just do not care enough while also not having a the most stringent of moral codes.

    After all teenagers are known for breaking rules
  • Jan 31 2013: If the law is passed, than majority of those voting on the law are SUPPORTIVE of it. The fact that anyone would want to deny the people in Arizona their choice of lifestyle is what's unconstitutional here. The law itself isn't important - if that is the law most Arizonians would like to live under, then they should be allowed to.
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    Jan 28 2013: It's all kinds of wrong. Never mind the Constitutional issues for a moment. What is the intent of the law? Does taking a pledge advance their education? We recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, but that doesn't make any of my kids any smarter or more hard-working. I appreciate the effort to make our students good citizens, but this law is not the way to do it.
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      Jan 28 2013: Agreed. The author stated that he wanted to find a way for the students to get involved and to take a part in the process. He felt that this would incite more interest.

      He is a politician ... he doesn't have to be smart .... just elected.
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    Jan 26 2013: I copied two paragraphs from the AZCentral:

    All public high-school seniors would have to recite an oath supporting the U.S. Constitution to be able to graduate, under a proposal in House Bill 2467 sponsored by Rep. Bob Thorpe, R-Flagstaff.

    And all students in first through 12th grades would have to say the pledge of allegiance each day if House Bill 2284, sponsored by Rep. Steve Smith, R-Maricopa, passes.

    Ridiculous and moronic are the norm in the legeslative class and hardly act as disqualifiers to narrow the list down. If this Bill bothers you ... you really do not want to go to azleg.gov and look at the pending Bills. It is going to be a bummpy ride this year.

    We make it to Scottsdale often ... is there a place I can view your paintings for sale?

    Thanks for the reply. I wish you well. Bob.
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    Jan 25 2013: Is it Constitutional? NO.

    It is a violation of the 14th Amendment - for starters. Every person shall have equal treatment under the law. Whereas there are Christian denominations who stand by Jesus' instructions to "swear no oaths", if you discriminate against them, you are not giving them equal treatment under the law.

    The first amendment cannot be used in this case if the written constitution is what you refer to (as opposed to the unwritten one). That's because the first amendment prohibits the U. S. Congress from passing such laws that violate freedom of religious expression and freedom of speech. It doesn't prevent states from doing so - which is where the 14th amendment comes in.

    HOWEVER - given that Arizona depends on the federal government for education funds, and the federal government cannot take the side of one religious denomination over another, and it cannot limit freedom of speech, if the written constitution is used as the arbiter, then Arizona would lose its funding. However, if the unwritten constitution is used, then anything goes - just like the Pledge of Allegiance whether or not you speak of the "under God" part. Children are still subjected to peer tyranny if they refuse to stand and violate their parents religious instructions. Imagine if it was your child being taunted and bullied because they wouldn't do what everyone else is doing, and then keeping it secret from you out of learned shame OF you.

    I do not believe that SCOTUS would support such a law because AZ would be depriving students of the ability to get a job or go to college.

    That proposed law is very abusive at its heart.

    Sounds like a pretty stupid proposed law to me. I see all kinds of unintended consequences. It reminds me of Nazi days and crowds yelling "Heil Hitler" while not seeing what Hitler was doing. It is a fulfillment of the dystopia outlined by Orwell in his famous book, "1984".
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    Jan 25 2013: Is it Constitutional? NO.

    It is a violation of the 14th Amendment - for starters. Every person shall have equal treatment under the law. Whereas there are Christian denominations who stand by Jesus' instructions to "swear no oaths", if you discriminate against them, you are not giving them equal treatment under the law.

    The first amendment cannot be used in this case if the written constitution is what you refer to (as opposed to the unwritten one). That's because the first amendment prohibits the U. S. Congress from passing such laws that violate freedom of religious expression and freedom of speech. It doesn't prevent states from doing so - which is where the 14th amendment comes in.

    Sounds like a pretty stupid proposed law to me. I see all kinds of unintended consequences. It reminds me of Nazi days and crowds yelling "Heil Hitler" while not seeing what Hitler was doing. It is a fulfillment of the dystopia outlined by Orwell in his famous book, "1984".
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    Jan 25 2013: epic fail
  • Jan 25 2013: Worthless.
    How do, or would you, expect them to follow, uphold and value the Constitution, when their leaders don't?
    People, you, me and others, have put into office, into positions of trust and follow them, believe in them and even give them the benefit of the doubt, particularly after we have found out they all have been lying to the us/US for decades?

    Their military leaders, political leaders, financial leaders, religious leaders, educational leaders, and corporate leaders.
    It should read:
    Their military liars, political liars, financial liars, religious liars, educational liars, and corporate liars. To list a few.
    Not to mention sports leaders, entertainment celebrities and even parents who are lying more often to their children, about more things, in America today?
    Why do people continually look at the wrong solution to our problems instead of going straight to the cause and the individuals and getting rid of them and it?
    Could it be that so many have finally gone over the edge and acquiesced away any idea of victory leading to a better world, that all they can do is talk about things, pretending they really care about younger people who are inheriting, going to inherit what we have for them, and then those who might not inherit anything at all expect ruin?

    If we teach the children of today, how to dismantle their government and install a just one, creating a just system, then we are educating them correctly. Otherwise, we are only educating them (some), in how to try and become successful in an unjust system that will require, nay, demand and force them to break laws, ethics, trust and other attributes we need to rely on, in order to rise above the muck more and more are being forced to squirm around in, as they call it life, living or hope.

    The Declaration of Independence, tells, commands, directs and even compels us/US to do so and it tells us what to replace it with. That would be upholding our Constitution. Not them, not younger folk, but all of us/US
  • Jan 25 2013: Authoritative documents support themselves.
  • Jan 25 2013: Everyone else has to do this sort of