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Which is more important, to do right or to do good?
A rich man walks down the street and drop a 20 dollar bill. You know he will not even notice it is gone. On the side of the street sits a beggar who looks really hungry. The good thing is to give the money to the beggar, the right thing is to give it back to the man who dropped it.
- Maybe instead of taking this question , as a question of right and wrong or judgment, perhaps what we can take from this is that there are a variety of opinions and many people have different ideas of what is morally right. That is beautiful to me. This is just an example that good and right are almost undefinable, or at the least the definition is always changing for everyone.
John Frankendoe
If I saw a twenty on the ground, not knowing where it came from, then I would probably keep it.
If I saw the twenty on the ground, not knowing where it came from and saw a person that appeared in distress, I might give it to them, if it was convenient for me. I probably wouldn't go to the corner, wait for the light, cross traffic, wait for teh light again to come back across, etc.
In fact, if it was that far away, I might not have even noticed someone across the street in such need. But if the person in need was in my the path of my destination, then I probably would give it to them, unless I was in dire straits as well.
Rafi Amin 20+
Random Chance 30+
You are mainly speaking about yourself when you say, "we put it in our own pockets."
Rafi Amin 20+
Jane McDee
Good or right, implies judgement.
Stick with the truth.
The item belongs to person A, return to person A.
Random Chance 30+
It is probably "wrong" not to be.
The money is there. Do what you will do with it. Why turn it into a neurosis?
We think (too much. that is one of our problems), what we do will have consequences but we really have no idea on the consequences that may really be occuring. Thinking we do is just pretending to be a God of sorts. It sounds like a God that just doesn't know what the hell to do.
Someone watching you may think of you as a thief. Another passing by on a bus may think, "what a nice thing that person just did." A third crossing the street may be disgusted that you gave it away while another impoverished soul may assault the person you gave it too.
Stop being neurotic. Do what you will do with it based upon how out-of-touch you are with yourself.
It's not a dilemma, it's not a moral dilemma, it's not much of anything except a brief action taken or not taken.
Be selfish, unselfish, feel guilty, not guilty, be true to thyself or betray yourself.
What ever you do, live with it. You have to one way or the other.
The only way not to, is to lie to yourself, one way or the other.
Paul Kirhagis
I would suggest we don't think enough. It's too common for people to act without thinking, which then leads to habitual behavior that leads to many of the problems we encounter on a daily basis. Thinking critically is a necessity and a responsibility.
Abdelhakim DAHMANI
.................................................................................................................................................. "Other is philosophy" .
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Maaher Sayeed 10+
I find it odd and morally wrong to judge the rich person who dropped the money as someone who will not even notice it is gone. How can we make a judgement such as that? Why is a "rich person" often quickly typecasted as someoen who is not worthy of his or her wealth. Maybe they wroked very hard to get there and saved every penny.
Similarly a "beggar" could be due to bad choices. Why is a poor person by default seens as a charity worthy individual? There are many who rather Beg, borrow or steal rather than work, earn and straighten up?
I disagree with the rich being unworthy and the poor being the worthy concept.
As I stated earlier here too... GIve the man his money back and if you want to be charitable, do it with YOUR time, money and personal contribution. It is morally wrong to be charitable with other persons money.
Random Chance 30+
It seems you are doing the same stereotyping when you quantify that "many (beggars), beg, borrow or steal rather than work, earn and straighten up..."
I don't know what you do for a living but I might suggest you give your job to 10,000 beggars to help them out.
Of course, only one can take and do the job, as it is only one job.
I wonder what the others can do?
Maaher Sayeed 10+
Paul Kirhagis
Mark Meijer 100+
We have explored relatively little of outer space and of deep sea, so who knows, maybe we'll find actual goodness and rightness and importance there yet... But nah :P... Somehow that just seems absurd... Somehow it seems to me there is none of that outside of our own projections at all. Who woulda thunk.
walter crockett
Theodore A. Hoppe 200+
The problem assumes that we have only two choices here but there are many more, we can keep the money for ourself, or we might continue walking along pretending not noticing the beggar or the twenty being dropped, and letting events play out without our involvement. We could even tell the rich man he dropped a ten, and still give the other ten to the beggar?
We tend to see hypothetical situations such as this from the perceptive of the uninvolved observer's point of view. In the real world however this perceptive leads to judging what is wrong, and bad, and not what is good or right.
Mark Meijer 100+
Don Anderson 20+
We commonly consider NGOs as good, and yet they have done harm in Africa.
So is good just a desire to help others or is good just results that help others?
So does good desires that end in results that harm = bad?
And does bad desires that end in results that help = good?
And confuse it even more, in my life I have had several experiences that were bad at first and in time turned out to be good.
Example getting laid-off and then getting a better job that I would not have been looking for if you had not been laid-off.
P.S. on NGOs doing harm; I refer you to Ernesto Sirolli’s TED Talk.
http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen.html
Conor Corrigan
Frankey Chang
Elizabeth Gu 30+
I'm a Korean. I'm going to learn Chinese for a couple of years in college
So, you're a Chinese. Glad to meet ya :)
I don't know how to speak Chinese yet--which means I'm definitely not in professional level yet lol, but I will be able to do it.
Thank you for your reply
Best wishes
Liz
Frankey Chang
And,Congratulations!You will be a college student starting from this March.
Under your confidence,you will make it.
It's my pleasure to give you some advice-Though, it may not so professional than your teacher-with my knowledge in Chinese if there is any question in your future-studying of the language.you may don't mind it.
Elizabeth Gu 30+
I'll be so grateful for your help with studying my Chinese.
Btw, I can't send you any emails 'cause there's no "Send an email to Frankey Chang" button on your profile.
In case you don't want to reveal your email address, I'll write down my email address here.
Would you mind sending me your email so that I can keep in touch with you in the near future?
I’ll look forward to your email
Regards~
Liz
ritu bachani
Kate Blake 50+
I used to challenge people with the story of the lady who accidently left the hand brake off when parking her car on a step hill. What penalty should she incur? Then add different scenarios like her car side swiped 4 others; or it ran over a young mother and killed her baby in the pram or just slide gently into the gutter and did no harm.
Sadly we are mere mortals without the power to see the bigger picture of every action we do and don't do. So choosing right over good is merely our personal perective and neither right or wrong ....
Don Anderson 20+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
The most difficult moral dilemmas usually involve a clash of values.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Interesting how you categories right versus good.
Not sure how you differentiate doing right from good.
Isn't it interesting how we have evolved little morality calculating cognitive engines. But we all come up with different assessments and conclusions.
Richard Krooman 50+
When doing good means you cannot do the right thing you should try to change the world.
David Burns
One, the person can give the twenty dollars back to the person who dropped it, not assuming whether that person is rich or not and you'll feel better for being kind enough to give it back. Two, you give it to the man who by appearance seems to be in a worse off situation than yourself. This situation will make you feel better about yourself because you potentially saved a life. A third outcome, is you pass on by not caring to give the twenty dollars to either of them, and hoping that the next person that notices the twenty dollars will make that decision. Here you come out the same as you went in.
Now I personally view it as this, you can gain positive feelings from either of the first two options. And in this particular situation you can possibly satisfy both. So how can you make both parties happy? How do you give the twenty dollars back to its original owner and yet still potentially save a life, thus gaining double the positive feelings. Assuming that that man is in fact starving, you could then ask yourself, do you just feed them once only satisfying their hunger for a short period of time. Or do you help that person get a sustainable income in order to potentially feed them for a lifetime. A simple feed a man a fish, teach a man to fish scenario. And who knows how that person might react to such an act of kindness. They may go out and try to show others such acts of generosity.
So as you can see, by not biasing your decision on the emotional ideas of right and good. You can potentially come out pleasing every one, including yourself.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Most of the subjects that Swedenborg deals with have to do with, and relate to, Truth and Good. One aspect of the relationship of good and truth is that truth comes first and good develops later. Several stories in the Old Testament deal with a first born loosing all birth rights to the one born second. Jacob and Esau and the sons of Joseph where they are both blessed by their grand father who crosses over his arms during the blessing.
Basically it is comparable to first (in time) getting a driver's license, but the use of the license later is more important.
To do things because they are right (or following truth) is us doing them while following certain rules and expectations. Kids do not want to be punished, adults do not want to loose their reputation, or wealth. So we do things right.
At some point in our life we are hoped to switch to doing good things because we love to do things that are good. When we do good things, only because we love doing good, not because we want to get wealthier etc. we are angels even before our body dies.
That was my sermon for today :)
Ammar Gh
There is also a possibility that it is how you see it.
What I would do? I would just give it back to the person who lost it and make a suggestion that there is a man who might need it. If I had lost a $20 I would expect someone to give it back and let me decide what to do with it.
ROOZBEH DAREGHOLI
Rhitik Bhatt
Gillian Rutkowski
All of you have a point but I see it like this: taking anything that is not rightfully yours is stealing. whether you are going to give it away or not. it is equally wrong taking from a rich person as it is taking from a poor person. I think that modern society has warped our thinking and as was pointed out, why is it assumed that the rich person is not a ''good'' person so he deserves to lose his money and wont even notice it.? As you see that $20 fall, you know nothing about this person and are making presumptions based on your own bias. If you feel strong sympathy for the poor person, then take $20 out of your own pocket and give it to him.
John Smith 30+
It's not "equally" wrong, stealing $20 (probably more than his daily income) from a homeless man means condemning him to several days without food or shelter, if you steal $20 from a rich man he won't even notice it (of course that changes when a lot of people start stealing $20 bills from him). Both cases are stealing but one is far more damaging than the other and therefore "more wrong".
Gillian Rutkowski
Theodore A. Hoppe 200+
Colton Cutchens
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
http://www.neusysinc.com/columnarchive/colm0009.html
You can read the background of the story in the link, but here is an interesting passage relevant to this discussion: "When the opportunity came to vote on a relief bill for the widow of a naval officer, he offered in his speech to donate one week's salary to her cause, but not to vote public funds for it. The House followed his lead in voting down the appropriation, but not a single other member contributed any of his own money (though they had been ready enough to contribute that of the taxpayers)."
Arkady Grudzinsky 50+
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_on_our_buggy_moral_code.html
where he points out that our attitude towards cheating changes depending on the amount (e.g. $20 vs $1,000) and also depending on the social group we associate ourselves with (how we perceive the man who dropped the money). He has an example of how attitude towards academic cheating depends on the "color of the T-shirt" of the person who cheats. This may point towards the roots of discrimination by sex, race, religion, ethnicity, or other "appearance" factors.
Something to think about and to watch in ourselves.
Don Anderson 20+
Should it matter if the man in need is an obese drunk or a wounded healthy police officer? Or rather the other man is an obese drunk or a healthy police officer?
If a rich man wins a lottery we can hope he does good with it, but we do not have the right to take it from him and give it to some else. Nor his summer house, second car, or the $20 he dropped.
Colleen Steen 500+
I would not give up a kidney for an obese drunk. He is showing me that he cannot, or will not take care of his body, so I would not give him part of my body. Anyway, I don't honestly think they would do a kidney transplant on an obese drunk. They might encourage him to lose weight and stop drinking first?
I also do not believe they would TAKE a kidney for transplant from an obese drunk...his organs are probably not in very good shape because of the alchohol....do you think? They usually take only healthy organs for transplant.
I agree....it is not appropriate to take something from one person (rich or poor) and give it to someone else:>)
John Smith 30+
Why do we not have that right? Granted it would be highly unfair and disruptive if it happened randomly but doing it systematically is an accepted practice (taxes) and there is no fundamental reason why that couldn't go as far as not allowing people to have a second home? Accumulating as much wealth as you can get your hands on is not a human right (except to libertarians). I'm not saying a Nobel Prize winning scientist or a an exceptionally distinguished soldier don't deserve the reward of having a second home, but I can understand why people get angry when people with comfortable desk jobs, a mediocre level of education and no special accomplishments get to have 27 homes and a superyacht while other people who do back breaking labor barely get enough food to survive.
Don Anderson 20+
To me “you earn it, you own it” is a basic rule in society. And that applies to wealth, respect, trust, health, intelligence, wisdom, spirituality, friends and anything.
Why do you think we do have the right and who gave us that right?
Is it a god given right?
A government given right?
or something each of us decide for ourselves?
and why limit it to wealth, why not a limit on number of friends or amount of education?
John Smith 30+
The IRS disagrees, so do I and I think most people, especially people from outside the United States but also a majority within the United States.
"and why limit it to wealth, why not a limit on number of friends or amount of education?"
Joe being friends with Jack doesn't prevent David from being friends with Jack at the same time. Joe controlling a disproportionate amount of resources necessarily limits the amount of resources David can control, because the total amount of resources is limited and in reality neither Joe nor David are brilliant scientists who can discover ways to harness resources more efficiently all on their own. Education takes up resources, so yeah, there should be a limit somewhere, but 99.999% of the people would never obtain the 15 or so university degrees required to hit that limit.
Elizabeth Gu 30+
The beggar seems so hungry.
You have no obligation to give him some of your money.
But if you think you should give him your money, say, a 20 dollar bill, then, do whatever you want.
It's your choice.
But when a rich man comes between you and the beggar, things seem to change somehow.
You figure since he's rich, he wouldn't care about some of his little money.
In the mean time, you would no doubt the beggar would be desperately in need of the money.
Being aware of rich-poor gap might make you rage.
‘Cause you happen to care about Fairness.
As I mentioned earlier, by including those two parties—the rich man and the beggar—together, you complicate the situation.
The rich guy has nothing to do with the beggar.
Perhaps, so does the beggar.
Consider the situation where the beggar regards your action—giving the rich man's money to him—as wrong. Does it ever occur to us that he wouldn’t be up for that?
Another assumption here.
What if, instead of $20, the rich man drops his wristwatch?
If the watch seems expensive, you give it back to the man, but if it seems cheap, then would you give it to the beggar and tell him to sell it?
What's the difference between one's money and his belongings?
Money also belongs to the one who possess.
I've seen a few great solutions, such as, giving back to the money to the rich man and buying some food for the beggar.
But whether you give something to the beggar after returning the money to the rich man doesn't matter.
It’s inspired by your emotional pain: you feel sorry for him anyhow.
Leave the rich man alone. His walking on the road is a coincidence.
If you look into the deep inside of you heart, you’d realize your decision depends on so many variables. If you want to make people donate their money and help the poor, then speak up toward the government and your fellow citizens.
You’re allowed to convince them, but not allowed to be Robin hood.
Frankey Chang
Elizabeth Gu 30+
My major, starting from this March, is Chinese.
Yasmine Hajjar
Like Don Anderson said - we are assuming that the person is evil. He might have that 20$ intended to another NGO or needy person.
Then you have to think about that beggar - did his downfall into poverty lie in his hand or was it out of his hand? Is he going to go buy food or clothes or will he spend it on alcohol or drugs.
Then there is you - what you personally think of the situation. Is the beggar more deserving or is the person who lost it more deserving because it was a result of his work?
Honestly, I can't even tell you what I would do myself. It really depends on so many different things that might be in that situation itself.