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We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
I spent some time visiting the Turkanas and Digos of Kenya recently -
my experiences have been primarily in Africa
I realised 2 things -
firstly, that our knowledge of ancient societies, and our level of contact with them, are extremely small -
and when they occasionally happen, it is with great cultural bias and a presumption of superiority by the visitor (NGOs, government representatives, corporate staff, churches ..)
secondly, that many of the core topics of today in the industrialised world (environment, conflict and human social connection) are
- in some cases - managed far more successfully by these
ancient societies -
but there are of course many nuances and downsides in this story -
it is not black and white
I propose that we should have friendly, equal interaction with these peoples in a careful way that does not disrupt their lives -
as a way of pursuing our own search for what is right and what we want
in the West
and we should absolutely not allow these societies to disappear
a little a time - we should rather protect them from threats to their way of life, and get to know them better
Pinkers rapid dismissal of the 'myth' of social harmony in tribal societies
is merely a symptom of the fact that 'we' barely know 'them' at all,
and have extremely little reliable information -
for myself, and for 2 of your TED speakers, it is easy to distinguish
between those who have had close contact with tribal peoples,
and those who have not, like Pinker
it is true that for any normal person, a real personal contact with them
is not easy to arrange - there is travel, there is finding a personal introduction, and survival in areas without shops or hotels
I maintain that nothing has ever been more worth the effort -
and that there is no substitute for the real thing -
films, books and talks cannot convey the experience
The nearest I can come is that it changes you permanently,
and as Pinker says "everything you thought before was wrong"
Tim Petersen
I understand how foreign and fanatical this sounds to most, I found it unthinkable many years ago myself. Today, it has become my primary desire for this planet we call home. I look at many things differently today, you see, I am a survivor, I have overcome the disease of possession and I wish for everyone to be free from the fear of tomorrow. I healed by learning, living, and eventually loving the mindset of our ancestors. A mindset that existed prior to the establishment of organized religion, institutionalized education, and a government that owned the authority above the sovereign individual.
Hopi, Lakota, Nakota, and Dakota, Mayan, Tibetan, and many other prophecies ranging from five hundred to many thousands of years old and passed down through the generations foretold of the day when the earth's populations would seek the knowledge kept safe in the hearts of their elders. The knowledge of our proper place on this planet and proper relationships to one another, to the other living creations we share our home with, as well.
I am grateful to be alive these days as I think we are witnessing this transformation of hearts and minds that will return us to the environment fashioned by the hand that fashioned us.
Darren Dawson
Their knowledge in specific areas may be greater but no tribal society could grow to the extent of modern societies, their structure cannot work beyond a certain limit.
That doesn't make them any less valuable, indeed there could be a good argument made for a different civlization model based on tribal sizes but with greater communication and autonomy (think a fractal society).
The difficulty is this, tribal societies and the modern world typically have different desires and objectives. Fear holds both parties back from truly open engagement. If anything bothsides need to learn one lesson. Be selfless.
Taylor Tomasini
Why again do tribes have a lot to learn from modern societies? Not seeing it.
David Grammer
Taylor Tomasini
David Grammer
Taylor Tomasini
I think what Paul is saying is that there is something we can learn from these cultures if only we take the time to understand them. I also think there's a bias we have toward our modern society that paints all others in an inferior light when, perhaps, we're the ones with inferior social structures. Just a thought.
Brock Hardwood
Sure, human life is valuable, and stagnant cultures can certainly be interesting, but if we want to solve the problems concerning our era, we are best served by looking within our own civilization. Our society produces real healthcare, advanced agriculture techniques, efficient communication mediums, education, durable housing, roads, bridges, mass transit, and the list goes on and on.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
this, until a white man comes along and says "we should absolutely not allow these societies to disappear".
juan pablo quinonez cornejo
Paul Inskip
I admit I rarely talk with those around me in Chichester England about the tribal peoples,
it seems as if people can't easily see the connection with their lives and knowledge,
as if the 'gear shift' were too large to 'enter the world' of the peoples I am talking about
And yet here, a wealth of imaginative and informed reaction
After all of this exchange, I think want I want to point to most as the reason for this thread is ;
a sanity, a healthfulness, a human connection and life at a healthy human scale -
some quality of their lives that makes sense, is real, is warm, strong, appealing and calm
of course I acknowledge the points made here -
that we should not romanticise, project utopian fantasies, create ethnic theme parks and so on
nor should we think we can 'be like them' or abolish high technology
to me they are more like a pointer to what we are missing, what we are looking for,
what we have forgotten about ourselves - a core part of our lives that we are losing
and my feeling is that we can not 'study' them and abstract concepts from them like scientists,
which is how we tend to approach all questions and problems
but we can be permeated by their influence ...
and so far the only way I know to do that is to go and be with them,
in their life as they lead it
this whole thread is my attempt to find another way to move that humanising, healthful influence -
to my great surprise, it has brought forth a great many personal and meaningful responses
(in such cultures, everything is personal and meaningful !)
If you have more to add, please bring it on !
Like further responses, or ideas about where we can take it from here
David Grammer
Random Chance 30+
However, I do think it important to note that humans are not yet civilized and there is a great error in speaking as though some are, or are more civilized than peoples of the past.
It seems to me these "civilized countries", which have people in them, and who "seem the most civilized" are the ones who have done the most plundering of other countries, lands, peoples and their resources.
I don't see real "civilized people" as ones living and behaving that way, especially when they espouse that they do and that they are.
What we mistakenly label or call "civilized" is not actual civilization. It is people "acting that way" when they really aren't.
I really think this is a much more accurate description of who we are.
And lo and behold, we still refuse to address the causes and get rid of them.
That is dangerous, evil stubbornness and it certainly isn't civilized.
Calling oneself civilized is like the insane Moral Majority in the Un-united States, calling themselves moral when they ain't even close. Nor are they anywhere near sanity.
Look around you at the world. It ain't civilized...................................yet.
If a mass murderer were caught tomorrow, after serial killing thousands of people, over a long period of time, and it were found out that she had done a lot of good things for others too, would you be inclined to forgive, forget or just wipe the slate clean because of the good she had done in the past? And let her go?
Well, that's what patriotic American'ts do with America. "We've done a lot of good in the world, blah, blah, blah," and using that to ignore and try and forget all the atrocities America has perpetrated and continues to perpetrate.
And that civilization, and other rich, Western cultures are considered, "civilized"?
And it ain't, "compared to what?" Is there really such a thing as a civilized monster?
No. There is only a monster that "acts that way", be it persons, countries or cultures.
randy johnson
As an American it was very difficult for me not to interfere in the local "ways of life." When I visit the local hospitals, I see that the main emergency is breathing problems. I can clearly see that this is due to the overabundance of smoking cigarettes and also because the people cook in their houses over an open fire with windows and doors closed to keep out the dogs.
Another situation is the use of polluted water. It is the national custom to throw trash and everything on the ground where the waterways become contaminated and drainage becomes blocked leading to flooding. Being a person who "knows better," I am confused by the term "Local Wisdom." The World Health Organization has studied these things and has offered simple solutions to increase health and the mortality rate of children. Hundreds of millions of dollars every year are given to help reduce poverty.
Yes, the world does need to understand that poverty is relative. $200 per year in one country might be the same as $200,000 in another. So to say that we must take people out of poverty, we need to be aware of their situation first. They may have no money, but they may be healthy and have a place to live.
I agree that we should not push our customs on other peoples, but what should we do about unheathly situations? What about areas of oppression? Should we educate people about corruption and the benefits of law and order?
In Papua, Indonesia, the gold mine is run by an industrialized nation while the natives still wear traditional grass skirts and coconut shells over their "privates." There are hostilities continuously between the local tribes. The fights are usually over land or pigs or women. Many times they just schedule wars that last for a couple days and then they stop and go home.
prakhar porwal
increasing by 90 million a year. Human numbers
are expected to grow to between 8 and 11 billion
before levelling off later in the 21st century. Population growth has levelled off in the highly
developed countries over the past few decades;
but these industrialised states are now supporting
the maximum numbers that can be sustained in
the short term, and the citizens consume around
30 times as much energy and resources as those of the Third World. For example, the 120 million
Japanese have a greater damaging impact on
world resources than the whole of the population
of India and China put together.
prakhar porwal
carolyn mcauley 20+
carolyn mcauley 20+
Colleen Steen 500+
Good question. I agree with you that the words we use send a message, as well as reinforce an idea in our own minds. Perhaps how we use the words is as important as the words we use, and in what context?
There ARE people living in "primitive" circumstances..."original; primary; of or relating to the earliest age or period; early ancestral; self taught; simple culture, natural...."
The question may be...do we look down on these people, or recognize the gifts they have for us?
There ARE "uneducated" people in our world...those who have not had much formal education. I am one of those:>) Do we look down on them/us, or respect them/us for what we may have learned without formal education?
I could go through your list of words, and I think the important thing is to remember to be open to people, be aware of the words we use and HOW we use them?
For me, it does NOT reduce ANYTHING because I try to genuinely see, and hear people for who and what they are, and what they have to teach me. I believe that we are all teachers and students in the life experience, so I am open to that possibility with all people, regardless of their background.
I am not fond of some of the words you present...uncivilized, anarchist, jungle inhabitants, and I do not use those words to describe anyone.
I do not mind the words primitive, uneducated, aboriginal or tribal, because in my perception, those words may accurately describe some people (including myself), and I do not feel it is disrespectful to use them.
Comments?
natasha nikulina 50+
"... they prove is thousands of years of sustainability."
Some one said that they had nothing and ' nothing ' is the only thing worth having, it lasts.
But we can't go back , it's never the option. Don't you think that something 'new old' is emerging ? Archaic revival ? I wouldn't call it a culture and it has no chance to become a structure ( it's a structure antidote ), it's a kind of a 'postliterate ' thinking/ feeling/attitude ... awakening , maybe ?
Here are links to illustrate my point :
http://www.ted.com/talks/wade_davis_on_the_worldwide_web_of_belief_and_ritual.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/wade_davis_on_endangered_cultures.html
Hope you'll enjoy these talks !
Paul Inskip
at all without harming them -
from my experience this is the truest observation and concern - our record on this speaks for itself
It is calamitous
I believe, under certain conditions, we can however - and I'd like to exchange more on that
For us more fundamentally in this thread, what is it, as Carolyn and others ask, that we have to gain ?
As per the initial idea here ?
I suggest that anyone who spent time with tribal or ancient societies would learn things
that they could bring back to the West or industrialised world
we speak a lot of core human values and shared values, and universal qualities of human life -
that is those of us with an engaged spirit in our world -
but we know our societies are overcomplicated and overwhelmed with complication,
and distant from the basic elements of life, and the natural forces that underly our lives
we are in a never-ending race, where we are particles moving, or being moved,
in a direction we do not even know, and may largely disagree with -
submerged in complication, detail and stress and pressure, we have perhaps
forgotten what we are aiming for
I believe tribal communities, and all old closely connected communities that are
not inhumanly complicated and hurried, and are in a physical relationship with their
environment remind us of where we all come from, and of the basics, the universals
It takes us out of and beyond the technical, the intellectual and the competitive rush,
and back into a sane, peaceful, connected version of ourselves -
I think only the old civilisations can do this -
and make us of the high-tech societies remember what really matters,
and who we really are
Colleen Steen 500+
One thing I have learned, is that we are all more the same than different. Some of the things Carolyn mentions are cognitive ability, depth in child parent connections, enjoyment of surroundings, suffering, death, illness...
The people I have interacted with in remote areas of our world, in my perception, have equal cognitive ability (in fact, sometimes more than in suposedly "civilized" cultures), they are similar in parenting skills and I think/feel many times, better with child/parent connections. I think the closeness and simplicity of their life styles contributes to some of these connections. Most of the people I have encountered in remote areas seem to be MORE aware of their surroundings and appreciate what they have (although very little materialistically) MORE than people in more advanced cultures.
As you say Paul, we share many core human values, and universal qualities of the human life experience. We share all the same emotions. Those in western cultures are often stressed by the "never-ending race", and yet people continue to "submerge" themselves into complication. Yes, I believe some folks have forgotten what they are aiming for.
Calvin Davis
Colleen Steen 500+
I totally agree that it is helpful to "get back to the basics and find a genuine appreciation for many of the things we take for granted".
I also agree that some folks are "buried" in the industrial/social networking aspects of some societies.
So, if/when people are "buried" in a certain belief system, they may bring that belief system with them into the isotated cultures? This is what I observe sometimes in our world. Rather than going into remote areas and genuinely trying to interact with the people in THEIR lifestyle, people visit with the intent of spreading their own life style? So, they may actually be creating a barrier to learning from others?
I totally agree that interaction in a simpler lifestyle may be "refreshing" for some folks, and in doing that, it may be necessary to let go of our own comfort zone?
Conor Corrigan
Mark Hurych
Colleen Steen 500+
Do you think it is better to try to communicate and connect different groups of people? Or do you think/feel it is the isolation that preserves the wisdom of these cultures?
I LOVE connecting with isolated groups, being among them, and I always felt that we were sharing something with each other.....
Mark Hurych
I think we especially in the industrialized west have isolated cranial self from our other selves: heart, gut, sensory body, kinesthetic body, empathic being, communal being, right hemisphere persona.
Isolation might very well be a fragile state.
Colleen Steen 500+
I always enjoy the sensitivity in your insightful comments....thank you for that gift:>)
I agree that isolation can be a very fragile state, which people have sometimes taken advantage of. I also agree that some in the industrial west isolate themselves, even in the midst of (or maybe because of?) a very complicated lifestyle.
If we interact with people in isolated places, with the intent to learn from them, it may be more likely that we will help protect and preserve their culture and wisdom? I believe this to be true.
Part of an experience, while staying in the rain forest in Costa Rica years ago, was history lessons. Costa Rica has no military, low crime rate, high educational standards, more affluent than other central Am. countries, etc. I asked why? How did this country develop this way, while the countries around them have always been in chaos?
We were told by our Costa Rican teacher, that way back when missionaries were moving into central america, the person who was most active in Costa Rica, encouraged the people to retain their own culture. Yes, he was trying to convert them, AND also encouraging them to embrace their natural culture. While missionaries in other parts of central america were trying to convert the people by advising them to discard their own culture.
Our Costa Rican teacher said she believes that the Costa Rican people know themselves and their culture, still embrace parts of their original culture, have more self confidence and self esteem. Makes sense doesn't it???
Hilary Calaf
Perhaps they have it right and should look at us with pity,a generation plagued by Intellectual superority complexes and lack of direction or faith.
claire w
carolyn mcauley 20+
Paul Inskip
I arrived there near sunset -
the village was 3 huts, 2 or 3 women and some small children, relatives of the Chief's daughter Rose,
who I had met in a town - she had taken me there, and was the only English speaker
as is customary, woven straw mats were brought out for us all to sit, and the sun was setting
there was no other sound than Rose and the women talking, catching up on news
and no light except the strong glow of starlight - so calm, so simple
I lay on my back, watching the stars and hearing the soothing trickle of conversation -
small shapes appeared in the half-light on the corners of my mat,
as the children lay down, half-snoozing and half listening to the women talk
I will never be able to explain this, but in that moment, way out in a remote desert tribal region
where I knew no-one yet, and understood not one word, I felt as if I was Home
In the many following days and further visits, life felt so spacious and without hurry -
it felt reasonable, sane, human. alive and healthy
Life there is materially simple to an extreme degree
you sleep outside on a straw mat, people appear to visit you and talk,
and visiting each other every day is just the normal way for them -
'alone' does not really exist
there is a sanitising effect of living such a simple and physical life
in a natural environment - and the quality of time itself changes
I usually find that time as we know it stops
I don't want to fall into the trap of romanticising the place or people -
they are a human and flawed as anyone else
but the effect on a Westerner like myself is profound -
and when you come back to our culture, for a while you are perceiving
your own culture from the outside - which you may never have done before
you get a glimpse of what all the people of the old cultures are seeing when they look at us
Ben Jarvis 50+
L.A. Hall
Colleen Steen 500+
I was born in Burlington, and lived there for many years....now live further north:>)
I don't understand what you mean by..."awkwardness, the elephant in the room, may be a misunderstood, highly attuned sense of human body language and its meanings."
Cliff Nzombato
In Oct 6 1963 a few years before I was born H.I.M. Haile Selassie address to the Unted Nations and this is what he said That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned: That until there are no longer first-class and second class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained; And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; Until all Africans stand and speak as free beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of Heaven; Until that day, the African continent will not know peace. Alhought alot has happen yet still the same?
L.A. Hall
Beautifully said.
Don Anderson 20+
http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen.html
Armistral .
In addition to preserving cultural wisdom, I believe that native peoples should take (and be supported by the rest of us) the responsibilities and rights related to protecting the lands the live and depend on.
http://www.wesolver.org/wiki/Native_Peoples_Land_Stewardship
This would help us all.
Joshua Kloppers
I know it sounds ridiculous but more is not always better
Colleen Steen 500+
Joshua Kloppers
Matt Smith
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree that one may get SO content that s/he may not feel motivated. However, I do not find contentment to be a "bad" thing. When I feel content, I usually feel more calm, creative, ready willing and able to explore more. I think as we evolve as thinking, feeling, human beings, we will always be creating:>)
It appears that Joshua is talking about expansion in relationship to using resources?
Matt Smith
There is no measure of content because you either are or you aren't. I'd be willing to bet that you're talking about something else, closely relate able but who can ever agree on these damn definitions anyway, there's always some subjective quality to anything in the english language.
Or we're talking about something metaphorical and idealistic, in which case this whole thing is silly, whether or not its fun to talk about, but we're back to being 12 again.
In any case, those history majors might agree with me, our desire to discover the unknown, which is arguably the basis for all that we are, is the very thing about our nature that has driven us create, to improve and to destroy. Just looking at the natural order for things as evidence for a precursor to some peoples romantic utopian future, content creatures get eaten or fail to adapt. I've always said I'm all for it, but, it's not realistic. Someday, Isaac, someday...
Colleen Steen 500+
There are many levels of contentment:>)
Contentment, according to definition and my experience means: "satisfied".
And this is the quality I observe in tribal/ancient cultures of our world, which I LOVE connecting with:>)
Matt Smith
I am happy for you if you're content all of the time andddddddddddd a little envious you super woman you!
Colleen Steen 500+
As I said, it is what I connect with and admire about people living in remote places with very little materialistically.
L.A. Hall
And this way of life is not irrelevant. People still live this way around the world. They did before we were here and if we continue on our course and destroy ourselves, they'll be here when we're gone.
Matt Smith
Don't romanticize ancient history would be my advice, you've led a privileged life and knowing that is enough but problems are quantitatively comparable. We don't know how much their life sucked, or how great it was, there simply is no written record of those times.
Colleen Steen 500+
You both make some valid points.
LA,
You say that people "tax themselves...hoping to work...so that someday they can live a calm, balanced tranquil life". You also insightfully mention the idea of "escape". It sounds like you are suggesting that often times, in western cultures, people do not live in the present moment? But rather, they are seeking something outside (escape), or peace and calm in the future?
Matt,
You say the "society you speak of evolved from" that other "romantic" (peaceful, calm) society? And the reason we evolved as we did was because we wanted more?
I agree with everything you guys write. Do you suppose it is helpful to seek and experience balance? Can we learn from each other? Western culture is probably NOT going to stop developing technologically. Could it be that there is a possibility that we can use advanced technology to help support poorer people and poorer countries, and at the same time learn more about how THEY often experience more peace and contentment? Could this be the balance we work toward in our global society?
Matt Smith
As a veteran and world traveler myself I completely believe in people experiencing other cultures and other activities well out of their usual. For me, I've been all over the world in cities big and small and I see much of the same thing, people live in bubbles, the bigger the city the bigger the bubble apparently. I see this problem with romanticizing ancient history or tribal life and I just can't sympathize with it. I do however, after reading the OP's comment near the top about finding home, completely understand how that feels. In my first trip to Bavaria I was overcome with the same strange feeling and have never had anything near to it in over a decade of exploring.
As a mental health professional I have come to believe that we can absolutely fix humanity with technology, namely medicine and psychology. If our society could get through industrialization and what became of that horrid mess is this, we're not all together lost and confused. We should be fine if we remain thoughtful and critical.
carolyn mcauley 20+
Marianne Delongi
I have developed a mental exercise, often when sorting out a family problem, I take away the props of our western, industrialized construct, and I divide my family members into my vision of a desert camp construct, what I imagine Abraham lived like. This model has served me well over the years. There is nothing new under the sun.
I envy societies that are not fully industrialized, and can, theoretically pick and chose what they want to take from the Western civilization.
I also am dismayed at how older cultures still maintain their traditions, while we in the west, seemed to have consumed, even our scanty 200 years of history, except as museum displays.
Your venue is intriguing. Thank you for bringing it to fruition.
greg dahlen 20+
Paul Inskip
he is an urban Turkana and a personal friend
Furthermore, it turns out the language is only a small barrier - and that the cultural difference
is the real challenge, or the real 'language difference'
Since my fourth visit to the Interior, I start to get accustomed to their ways and rhythms -
it is infinitely rich, highly developed - a true civilisation
I have never enjoyed, or gained so much, as I do with this growing friendship with these people
the truth is, it could take more than a lifetime to really understand their culture
Cliff Nzombato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLK. this is where we are heading to as a society we have reach a turning point and its time to love, for the greatest is love… with all my heart to humanity.
Colleen Steen 500+
I tried to connect with the link you provided and it says this video does not exist.
Colleen Steen 500+
I have had "conversations" with people around the world when we do not speak each others language. Language is about 67% body language I think. We can understand each other with a lot of gestures, facial expressions, a few words, etc.....don't you think?
L.A. Hall
Colleen Steen 500+
I think to understand body language, one needs to be open minded, open hearted, really listening and hearing with all the senses and be totally present and engaged in the interaction....don't you think?
It seems that there may be so much distraction in big cities, we may not be able to focus as well with communications?
Cliff Nzombato
try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo and let me know what you think
Colleen Steen 500+
I was able to access the video with this link....thanks. The video offers many good ideas, and honestly, I'm not very fond of the way it is presented, because I do not believe that "fighting" for a new world is the answer. More "fighting" is not going to end "fighting" in my humble perception.
I wholeheartedly agree Cliff, that the greatest connector is love...that which connects strangers as you insightfully say....unconditional love of each other. I agree that we are more the same than different...we all share the same feelings and emotions, most people want to love and be loved, and we all share this earth.
Stephen Corry