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Nicholas Lukowiak

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There exist objective moral truths

I do believe there exist objective moral truths, such as, "a person being punished for something they did not do is wrong."

But, there exist counter arguments and positions which believe there are no objective moral truths, because ethical knowledge is usually subjective or relative which means they cannot be consider objective. Such as non-cognitivism and emotivism

Obviously the process to figure out what is objectively moral would be a difficult one, but can it be done? Consensually, empirically?

Are there objective moral truths? What are they?!?!

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Closing Statement from Nicholas Lukowiak

Dear future interested reader,

IF there is anything to take from this closed debate, it is the fact one must define their terms and defend them in order to be 'right'. This creates monumental problems when debating with other people. So, try to stick with the most recognizable or common context of terms.

As far as being 'objective' I propose there is no way around being first subjective. While many believe since we are automatically subjective, we can never not be subjective. I see much error in this way of thinking, but appreciate the challenge of figuring out why. I believe in process/procedure in alignment with all of the universe. There is nothing that exist without evolving... Change in decay, [re]production, or [re]acting... Therefore, to assume there exist an 'objective truth' and then believing we can never know the exact nature of such... Seems counter-intuitive and only productive in a form of absurdity. The sciences are very successful building off of what is considered objective;by means of community, consistency and consensus.

Morality is individual. Ethics is the subject of morality. A moral decision is a personal one, not a communal thing. Although communities can dictate an individual's morals... The moral is still the individuals'.

I believe there are objective moral truths.

No one can make an argument genocide is proper or punishing an innocent is amazing! These thoughts are innately wrong for a reason... We are naturally endowed with wanting to seek social acceptance, and that involves questioning what we accept with how others treat us socially. If you, yourself, do not enjoy being harmed, what makes you think another would? What human doesn't want the basic needs of life?

What made people not want to accept my position is the immediate condition of the world... Well, the world, cultures, work in giant cultural cycles... Figuring them out helps.

Keywords: Prosocial selection and evolutionary psychology

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  • Dec 12 2012: "Music is a moral law"
    Plato.
    It's difficult to define, but easy to ' catch ' what is music in this context : Harmony, the code , which is downloaded in our DNA ; we can feel it, if we are truly attentive and not corrupted by ego. The set of dos and don'ts, moral laws, which are fixed and many is a kind of a residue of this feeling.
    Imperfect reflection to guide imperfect us in our imperfect world :)
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      Dec 12 2012: Sounds like an objective-subjectivist argument if I ever heard one.

      Objectivity is achieved through trial and error, not by figuring out it exist somehow...
      • Dec 13 2012: Nic,

        This was a most peculiar comment.....
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          Dec 13 2012: How would one configure objectivity without first being subjective?
      • Dec 13 2012: Nic,

        Isn't the process of "figuring out the existence" of something the crux of matter? Trial and error is also a part of that process. When we confirm the existence of something (something, anything, including "objective moral truths" we are first fully emerged in the process of evaluating the outer (and inner) conditions of that perception. When our own subjective ideas are placing before our individual eye of reason, we can then again evaluate and re-evaluate the object of our perception . When reason tells us that our concept (or our own mental picture or idea) does not coinciding with these conditions of the object in our realm of observation, then we have to readjust our concept so that it does coincide. This is the process of gaining knowledge.

        What is often misconstrued in this process of gaining knowledge is the fact that the whole "model" that we set up for ourselves .... the "objective" and the "subjective" is also a product of our own thinking. This is very often misunderstood. Because thinking, by it's nature, is in itself neither subject or object. The two ideas themselves, .... the "subject / object relationship" ...are existing only at the mercy of the activity of thinking..... This is how our own subjective thought can be reunited with the world of percepts and the things we can call "truths"

        Once again, mathematics and geometry are the closest we can get to real "objectivity" This is not to say that other forms of objective truths do not exist. I never said that.

        On a higher level, as I mentioned earlier, ( 2nd comment I believe, where I didn't really want to go into just that direction in our discussion, one could say that objective moral truths do in fact "exist" but this would lead the conversation off into a pretty esoteric direction that concerns the question of "ideas in themselves" as existing in their own reality. I don't think that would be very fruitful at this point.
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          Dec 15 2012: Math and geometry are not the closest we can get to objectivity. . . They are tools to measure relative factors in which we theorize about, without the theories (ideas) then there would be nothing for the math to be applied to. . . If anything, the philosophy of math theory insist math is an absolute tool, in which, no matter the relative-language of math, math will always end up being math.

          http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective

          Can you pull one of the several definitions, that dictate there is NO subjectivity involved in order to be objective?

          3.a. is your best bet... but wait... how can one not have a personal feeling about the manner? By first knowing they have personal feelings about the manner? So, in order to be impersonal, you have to personal, and then realize you are being personal and try to stop being personal? Sounds, procedural to me... But that could just be my rhetoric.

          Mind independent. . . maybe that confuses you? Because without first a 'mind' there is no way for it to be independent of a mind. . .

          And you are wrong... We are subjective-beings, we have no choice in the manner, but we are able to correspond and be coherent to our objective universe (not absolute universe). So we are able to be objective, but we are just unable to naturally be that way. Perhaps absolutes and objectivity confuses you? Reference my back and forth with Edward, the second time around.

          Even in your explanation, of how we are not really separate from the 'subject' and 'object' as in Plato's "forms" - this still insist we can know objectives... Of any sort, I take it further and say we can know obj. moral truths, and at this point you disproving my responds to objectivity, has mislead from the original dispute. Which is still in the air.
      • Dec 18 2012: Nicholas ,
        ' objective-subjectivist argument " is really hard to swallow :)
        Simply put, objectivity is the illusion of any subject ; it's a tricky concept, as all concepts are.
        What Plato didn't address, because he didn't have this notion back then , but we do now is DNA. And DNA is the 'objective through subject' kind of thing. It is the most subtle flawless communicator, we are not conscious of , but it does its job anyway. All dna molecules in every living plant and animal are structured exactly as a double helix ; it is the most powerful transmitter of intelligent data. DNA represents the highest order, it means everything is 'in tune' with every other thing, everything is in harmony with everything else. It's Plato's ' music ' What moral laws do we need if we can feel one with everything else ? Consciously we don't feel this way , but it seems to be the way it is.

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