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Terror based on materialistic, violent and irreligious ideologies can only be beat with intellectual struggle.
Quran denounces terrorism and any kind of violence. You cannot force someone to do anything, if you are following the rules of Quran. Islam teaches friendship, patience, self-sacrifice, generosity, speaking the truth, being protective and caring others more than yourself. Although it seems like the people mentioned in the speech are Muslims, they are educated with materialistic, violent and irreligious ideologies. That’s why we should try to defeat these ideologies with intellectual struggle. Because you cannot defeat an ideology with bombs or weapons, you can defeat it just by truth and awaking the consciousness. Most effective way is spreading the concept of love, peace and respect by explaining Creation with scientific proof.
Heather White 10+
The traditional meaning of jihad as an internal struggle is akin to the Christian desert Fathers and Mothers practice of withdrawl for the purpose of self reflection. These men and women followed the example of Christ by leaving the distraction of family and town living to enter the emptiness of the desert so as to experience more clearly their own internal struggle against mortal sins: anger, pride, lust, jealousy, envy, greed and sloth. The word “sin” is derived from Greek and means something close to “wrong choice”. We humans have free will, and often choose unwisely - the good news is that we can always choose again. We can learn from our errors! “Let the one without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus encourages us to be self-critical rather than judgemental - we all need to do better.
Although I am not a Muslim, I appreciate the Islamic call to prayer (to turn towards God) five times a day. As human beings we become very easily distracted by life. Most of the worlds 7+ billion people now live in urban areas where noise, hustle and bustle prevent us from hearing the small voice of God within us. In such noise we are all disabled.
The global population has never been so connected - sites such as TED encourage debate, questioning and the sharing of ideas. However, at the same time, there is a terrible negative force at work which seeks to polarize people -secular v. faith - men v. women - Arab v. Jew - black v. white…. The variables upon which to discriminate and separate seem endless. However, anyone who has chosen poorly can choose again and thereby atone. No one else need cast a stone against anyone, but we should all speak up to teach by example the message of peace, love and grace obtained by personal inward reflection.
We need a global campaign for greater silence, stillness, solitude and space for personal reflection. Then maybe all our jihads will fall back inside us.
scienTEDic DT
TED is really inspiring and as I experienced so far, people here are also very inspiring, challenging and encouraging.
Jeff Mowatt
http://economics4humanity.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/love-over-violence-yes-we-can/
Kareem Fahim
That said. We Muslims, are mere creation. We can not 'defend' God and His Message (aka Quran), no one can. Sustainer of all existence doesn't need anyone to defend Him.
People take out Quranic verses our of chapter/context and whine 'oh... Quran says this... Quran say that... Quran say kill 'em all' etc etc. But reality of matter is they never want to go to bottom of that misconception ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWtQ29qODPo ). All people want is sensationalism.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I agree blanket statements about causal relationships may be over simplistic, but it cuts both ways.
For me religions are human constructs, cultural technologies, but even if one was linked to a real deity it is also over simplistic to simply ignore how a religion integrates into motivations and behaviour and tribalism etc.
Humans interpret things individually. One person who considerate themselves a Muslim, living in the real world may act violently in as way that is partly or strongly motivated by their faith, their religious beliefs. You may disagree with their interpretation, but there is not one Islam. It is the sum of the whole. Shia, sunni, down to individual interpretations.
Don't worry too much because Christians and Jews can get the same criticism. Its probably fair to say Christianity played a part in a thousand years of Jewish persecution. Some may argue that this was not true Christianity, but it is the result of practical, human, real world religion.
The abrahimic religions also start with a cruel monster of a tribal god in the Jewish bible. And in the new testament we get the eternal torturer. Some nice stuff mixed in but Even the scriptures provide a basis for hate, sexism, violence, slavery, homophobia, as well as the nicer bits. Even the scriptures reflect the best and worse of humans.
So to whitewash religion and scriptures is also simplistic in my view.
We don't need religions to be tribal, to make war, but they are often part of the mix.
greg dahlen 20+
scienTEDic DT
I have tried to explain under Mr. Bourque's comment below.
One can not force someone to believe or be religious.
Even if you want to talk to people you have to use the kindest way you know.
Two verses here;
There is no compulsion where the deen(religion, faith) is concerned. (The Cow - 256)
Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair admonition, and argue with them in the kindest way. (The Bee – 125)
Zman Kietilipooskie
scienTEDic DT
Zman Kietilipooskie
scienTEDic DT
Religion by the way, should embrace the scientific truth and everything that is explained reasonably by science, like a subset. If belief cannot embrace it, then there would be a conflict in the mind. So, belief also should be reasonable to the mind with its own reasons. One needs reasons to believe.
So, religion has to be designed to except the truths already given by science. And science should be true enough to show evidence.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Roy Bourque 20+
There are many who don’t see it this way.
I cite the following taken out of the Koran (English translation);
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. “The Table” 5:49
The only true faith in Allah’s sight is Islam. “The Imrans” 3:19
He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost. “The Imrans” 3:85
Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers, except those idolaters who have honored their treaties with you and aided none against you… When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. “Repentance” 9:4
Those who make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorders in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides. “The Table” 5:33
The true believers are those who have faith in Allah and His apostle and never doubt; and who fight for His cause with wealth and persons. Such are those whose faith is true. “The Chambers” 49:13
Allah has purchased of the faithful their lives and worldly goods and in return has promised them the garden. They will fight for His cause, slay, and be slain. “Repentance” 9:110
When a person of faith believes that the punishment of God against the wicked is eternal torment in hell (and many do), then any act, no matter how vile, can be justified in the mind of a believer if its intention is to save souls from eternal torment. There is no earthly punishment that surpasses the concept of eternal torment in hell.
The three main religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, teach this doctrine. It has been the driving force for many acts of violence throughout history. It’s just a matter of determining whom the wicked are. How does your kind of truth address this problem?
scienTEDic DT
My answer is alittle bit long so, I will try to reply in 2 seperate parts.
First of all there is no oppression in Islam, and it is stated with verses.
There is no compulsion where the deen is concerned. (The Cow - 256)
Muslims have to be kind, compassionate and reasonable. They cannot be violent; the verses in your comment are reasonable only for defense, and protecting your family and poor-weak women, children and men.
Besides, the verses always direct the believers to forgive and help.
There are so many people who cannot even forget a single word. But in Quran it is stated that you should forgive and if you can, you should try to change the violent view of your enemy, even if he killed your friends and family.
At the times of the battle of Badr, prisoners were set free with ransom (as a deterrent factor) or by teaching 10 Muslims how to read and write. One has to spend time with his students to teach them something, and during that time he has to know them better, to teach them. And if one accepts someone who killed his family as his teacher, he has to leave his revenge aside and be respectful. This requires a strong faith, determination and sincere attitude. Some very sincere companions of the Prophet were against him in the beginning, but they changed. How could it be possible without love, friendship and compassion?
The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person FORGIVES and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah. (Counsel – 40)
Fight in the Way of Allah against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. Allah does not love those who go beyond the limits. (The Cow - 190)
Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair admonition, and argue with them in the kindest way. (The Bee – 125)
REST IS AT THE SECOND PART...
Obey No1kinobe 50+
How do you respond to the verses Roy raised. Do you just ignore and the sexist and slave keeping verses. And the pagan parts. And ultimately, does Allah still send humans to hell?
Suggest you can find good and bad in the Quran and bible. If promoting these as moral resources you don't get to cherry pick.
scienTEDic DT
Actually the threats in religion are for deterrence and holly books are for premonition and calling. That would be so primitive and ignorant to think that you are living this world to be tortured. One needs to recognize himself and without tests and effort he cannot know who he is. Have you ever thought why people love movies like Braveheart? Because everyone knows that constant courage and effort despite suffering is valuable. So, if there is no reason in one’s life, he cannot find the value of living. And everyone needs to find an aim and reason for his life, more than work, marriage, money or fame. When they cannot find it they lose the love for everyone and everything and especially for themselves. And this is the most miserable situation, because it leads to lose hope. So, in another perspective, some sufferings in one’s life could be a guide to find himself.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Plenty of nasty such in scriptures, let alone human interpretations.
Not every religious person is as reasonable as you.
And you are stuck with the words in scriptures, not just traditions. When Yahweh coo ands the Hebrews to kill, when he is said to kill, and is intolerant, and jealous, and threatens eternal damnation......what would a person do to avoid eternal damnation. Would a person die or kill to please their god. Would they lock up their daughters.
Its really difficult to discuss and debate with someone who thinks they have the absolute truth.
The bible was used to argue for slavery leading up to the us civil war. There are verses that clearly regulate band endorse slavery. Sure there were economic rationales as well. But believing you have god on your side, that you have divine truth, following gods will exacerbates human problems.
If we saw religion as a human construct and just took the good we would be better off in my view.
scienTEDic DT
I hope I could be reasonable. And any reasonable thing you read from my comments comes from the moral values I tried to gain with faith. If there were any irregularity in the way I experience faith, I could not believe it.
scienTEDic DT
Also, Christians and Jews are our FRIENDS; and we accept their prophets as our prophets and books as holly. People belong to other religions can feast and have dinners together, even they can marry. And if you marry someone, it means that you trust her, and let her raise your children.
Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way – except in the case of those of them who do wrong – saying, ‘We have faith in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him.’(The Spider - 46)
They are not all the same. There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite Allah’s Signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. (The Confederates – 113)
Those who have faith and those who are Jews and the Sabaeans and the Christians, all who have faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly will feel no fear and will know no sorrow. (The Table -69)
You will find the people most affectionate to those who have faith are those who say, ‘We are Christians.’ (The Table – 82)
...And the food of those given the Book is also halal (lawful) for you and your food is halal (lawful) for them. So are chaste women from among the Muslim and chaste women of those given the Book before you... (The table -5)
The people who practice wrong don’t change the fact. I think if someone looks without prejudice and with conscience can see the aim here.
Roy Bourque 20+
You and I share similar feelings. I wrote a book refuting the controversy between religion and science based on misconceptions. It’s called “The Merging of Two Worlds”. I never saw science and religion as controversial, only two different expressions of reality. Science deals with physical structure whereas religion deals with thought and spirituality.
Explaining creation with scientific proof doesn’t deal with the spiritual side of creation. The scientific community wants physical evidence. You can provide physical evidence for the evolutionary buildup of physical phenomenon, but you cannot provide physical evidence for spiritual experience. That is the issue with atheists. The atheist wants to do what you propose with the intention of eliminating religion altogether. Have you thought about that side of things?
scienTEDic DT
Also, science leads me to belief. Because I see that there are serious gaps about the evolution of highly complex molecules and phenomenon. I have studied evolution at the micro level for at least 6 years in the lab and I can say that a cell is very very very complex to be the product of coincidence. A cell is more complex then London, New York, Istanbul and somehow it is acting conscious. Because natural selection is not enough for making a meaningful DNA structure and mutations do not cause beneficial results. Mutations are harmful or at least silent. When we consider how living cells emerged on the ground, it causes a deep silence, because they contain meaningful DNA codes and patterns producing proteins. And proteins are so fragile and delicate that their abilities and aims are very interesting and you need tens of other proteins to produce just one. It indicates that they all have to be emerged at the same time, because one cannot continue its existence without the other. I’m just telling that, if evolution has the explanation for that, it has to be a serious one, not depending on rain and storm or wind…
Roy Bourque 20+
Rosicrucian doctrine claims that the individual cells of our bodies are not much more advanced than simple micro-organisms, but they operate together as a collective whole as the organs and systems of our bodies because there exist conscious levels other than our own consciousness. When we go to sleep, we are not aware of our own existence, yet there are processes going on in our bodies all night long. Rosicrucian doctrine teaches that this is not just simple chemistry. The body knows what it is doing even though we don't. It is repairing itself and preparing for our next day's work. And it knows how to do it because it is aware of what it is doing. We are not consciously aware of that ourselves because we operate on a different level of consciousness. Advanced Rosicrucian disciples became aware of this because they were able to alter their own conscious levels. Not only are there lower levels, but there are higher levels as well. The entire universe comes from a singular source - quantum fields that emerged from the big bang. In higher levels of consciousness, one is able to glimpse the collective whole. It produces extraordinary insights into what the universe is capable of, and it is where the idea of God emerged.
Heather White 10+
1) Both the Bible and Quran are full of contradictions and violence.
2) Holy books were written by human beings who made mistakes by changing the original meanings as their moods dictated.
3) Finding the loving message within religious texts is the key to their study.
4) Holy texts need very careful discernment and interpretation by skilled teachers to protect our young people from others who worship violent death and terror.
Bobby Ghosh’s Ted Talk hits the spot. We all need to be vigilant regarding any outbreaks of local hate talk - no matter what faith group we belong to.
Roy Bourque 20+
I agree with your points. Not only are they true with religious literature, they are also true with social media. People are easily led astray when they allow themselves to be.
My nephew is a linguist whose job it is to infiltrate foreign people to discover how they think. What he has discovered is that most Muslim terrorists are illiterate, or at least have never read the Quran and are being taught by leaders who use them to do their dirty work. The quotes I listed in my first comment are the kind that are being taught to these people. The fact that they are there is an issue in itself. The fact that they are being singled out to fire up these people to do the things that they do is why the holy books speak about evil. It's not that they protect you from it, but that they make you aware that it exists.
You make very valid points, particularly your last two. I hope that others get the message.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
But that does explain how the aliens developed. I suggest it is a open question unless you have a low burden of proof.
Same if a meteorite, brought RNA or DNA containing molecules to earth, you are still a step away.
Im not sure aliens would have our interests in mind. Although if they survived long enough to develop technology that can travel light years may be , not like humans and the gods we created.
carolyn mcauley 10+
scienTEDic DT
chuck norris
scienTEDic DT
chuck norris
Bob Stiglitz
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim
Salim Solaiman 50+
What is TRUTH ?
Whom you consider MUSLIM? How they become so?
Would love to hear explanation of creation with scientific truth....may I?
scienTEDic DT
First of all I have mentioned about terror. Terror, in its broadest sense, is violence committed against non-military targets for political purposes. To put it in another way, the targets of terror are entirely innocent civilians whose only crime is, in the eyes of terrorists, to represent "the other". This is an act bereft of any moral justification. This, as in the case of murders committed by Hitler or Stalin, is a crime committed against "mankind".
I’m not authorized to define “who is” or “who is not” Muslim; I’m just a person who is trying to learn. But I believe that terror has no room in sincere deep faith and killing innocent has no excuse.
When it comes to “Truth”, it is a wide concept and depends on the person and situation. My truth does not have to be yours, and yours does not have to be mine, but they both can be reasonable. Can you define your question a little bit more?
Science still don’t know how the first living being started to live, many says thunders, storms and rains but many others claim that these are inadequate facts for emergence of life. Deeper they go, more complex they discover, so complex to be random.
I have worked with cells and DNA. DNA is a very complex molecule, including enormous information. (Still don’t know the meaning of %97-98). Its shape (with golden ratio), its language (duplicate under control, one missing letter may cause serious disease or death), its dynamic structure (1meter long 2 strands fit into micro scale), its information (carry the information of everything about human and even the proteins that can produce itself) are unique and amazing. This is only one example, and there are so many magnificent examples in the nature that gets you shocked when you start to learn the details about them.
Interesting interview of Francis Collins – leader of Human Genome Project http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Humans didn't know what caused disease, lightening and earthquakes in the past so often assumed capricious gods were responsible. Ignorance is not an excuse to inject gods.
DNA is not a language. Its just stuff obeying the laws of physics.
I agree nature is amazing but everything we have figured out does not include gods or magic.
A snow flake is amazing. But it is what get when a compound made from polar molecule freezes. Nothing supernatural.
Life and the universe is amazing but harsh. 99.99999999% of the universe would kill us in seconds. Life on earth is a struggle. Nothing about it makes me think a loving god made the universe with us in mind. Ah but god moves in mysterious ways.
scienTEDic DT
Snowflake is a fantastic example, thank you for that. Each has a unique shape with golden ratio. Maybe you know, a snowflake is a crystal that forms around a small dust particle and just a micron size. It is hexagonal and can grow by extending tiny arms from its corners. Crystals have wonderful structures that their atoms make bonds with each-other using specific ratios and we see a flawless geometrical regularity in them. Snowflake’s atoms attach each other by weak bonds and that causes the formation of different shapes. If you consider that, during only a snow storm in just one area, literally trillions of snowflakes fall and all have different shapes.
Finally yes, I agree with you that we live like we could die any moment... And there must be a reson that we are still alive.
Salim Solaiman 50+
So what would be way out when TERROR being based on Religious Belief ?
Understand your believe about Deep Faith......but history says we had more bloodshed over centuries that was based on religious belief.....well if I take out the examples of Hitler & Statlin you gave, being driver of terror based on materialistic , violent and irreligious ideologies.....then what waa the base for crusades of past and what is base of Al Qaida or Talebani killings ?
Regarding TRUTH you already explained nicely so no need of futher explanation from my side , as you agreed about the relativity of TRUTH....
What I don't know today , will know tomorrow that's happened since the begining of mankind.....so it's up to one's ownself what s/he will do....I mean whether someone will strive to know more while facing the complexity or just give up and believe blindly something of her/his comfort.
scienTEDic DT
Thank you for your reply. If someone is in such a delusion that he is supporting religion by doing terror, then first of all that person should learn the features of God, and then learn the manifestations (that is the most important part I think, because people don’t see the miracles happening around them) of God, and then think about the reasons and aims of his/her life, and decide sincerely if he/she wants to believe.It is very important to be sincere to oneself, if he doesn’t have the feeling, then IT IS OKAY.No one has the right to judge or kill him, it is his decision.There are many people in the world living religion as a tradition, not in the heart.That’s why they don’t feel the love of God; they just feel an imaginary pressure, and oppress others because they are uncomfortable.Human mind is not suitable for oppression; it is suitable for thinking and deciding. For me,I cannot live something that is illogical to me.And if I feel something wrong about the information,then I start to search.It won’t make me irreligious or cause me leave the faith. If I cannot understand it, then I keep on working on it.Of course I will think and learn, it is not against religion.By the way, scientists did many mistakes in the past (like atom bombs) but it didn’t make me against science, in contrary it get me closer to science to use it in a better way.For example, there is nothing wrong about listening to music, dancing, having fun.But many people assume that it is against Islam. No, that is not true.But if someone thinks that it is wrong; than he is free not to listen. But he is not allowed to ban others, or stigmatize the Muslims who are listening to music as Hypocrites.This kind of oppression make people hypocrite and that’s why I support secularity. People should be FREE.I want to add something to “believe blindly” phrase.There is nothing blind in faith.I’m not addressing anyone, but if someone says something like that, he should be unreasonable.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
So far you have not provided any evidence for patterns, therefore god, and even further away from therefore Allah, and my interpretation of god.
Our minds can perceive patterns. DNA is a complex pattern. Water, h2o is a simpler pattern. So what?
scienTEDic DT
I generally watch documentaries and some patters in nature really take my breath away. In one of Sir David Attenborough’s documentaries he mentioned about a wonderful pattern. Here is his words: 'When you look at a complex sponge skeleton such as that made of silica spicules which is known as Venus' Flower Basket, the imagination is baffled. How could quasi-independent microscopic cells collaborate to secrete a million glassy splinters and construct such an intricate and beautiful lattice? We do not know.'
And here are Richard Dawkins’s own words: “The statistical improbability of phenomena such as Euplectella's skeleton is the central problem that any theory of life must solve. The greater the statistical improbability, the less plausible is chance as a solution: that is what improbable means.”
You know that they are not religious people, but they agree the complexity of patters is a phenomenon. And the rest is up to them and everyone else. Living life with surprises and amazements makes it meaningful for me, and gives joy of living. By the way if you haven’t seen it before, please look at the pictures of Venus' Flower Basket, it is fantastic.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
To assume god is responsible becasuse you can not think how it all happened is an argument from ignorance, a logical fallacy.
Also if you think Dawkins is suggesting a god is responsible for the amazing diversity of life you are probably mistaken.
What is the probability that a snow flake is a particular shape. That a wave is a specific shape. That you are drinking the specific water molecules in your next glass of water. That your parents met, and their parents, and theirs back generations before our ancestors were human. YEt here we are. Just natural processes and luck.
scienTEDic DT
Obey No1kinobe 50+
But a 100 or so years ago we only knew of one galaxy.
Most thought the sun revolved around the earth before Copernicus and Galileo.
Who new about sub atomic particles until recently.
Life and the universe is huge and complex for our primate brains.
I also feel awe, but don't jump to unverifiable supernatural explanations to fill the gaps.
scienTEDic DT
"what is their origin?" :)
Gordon Barker 10+
It would seem that your title of irreligious ideologies, should be changed to regligious ideologies.
We are stuck in a cycle of child abuse, where children, who are genetically wired to accept as fact, information from adults, are fed religious dreck and taught through repetition not to ever quesiton it.
This leaves them in a state of perpetual childhood, never able to mature and assume control of their own minds.
My only hope is that, over time, all religions will be reduced to a state of mild or passing interest, similar to the state of mind I take when reading the daily horroscope.
scienTEDic DT
I will explain what I understand and I am not forcing you to understand or support it.
The only conflict suitable is an intellectual struggle. War is only possible for defensive purposes, when property, lives or virtue are in danger, and it is the last choice. Besides even if you override, you cannot go further and act with violence. You should take care of people you defeated, even if they hurt you. You should share your meal with them even if you are hungry and there is not enough food, and establish peace as soon as possible and protect civilians and the innocent.
Moral values, sincerity and love are the keys of salvation.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Do you agree that it is possible that ideologies held by atheists are not all bad.
That some humanist non theist views are at least as good as theist views to improve peace, love etc.
Being a non theist doesn't mean you revert to base primal instincts. It means you have to do a bit of thinking yourself. So if you ignore religions saying kill homosexuals, you need to work out for yourself, is it bad tthingg etc.
scienTEDic DT
First of all my religion is mine and the others beliefs, religions (whatever you want to call it) are theirs and my intention is not changing their way. My intention is to share opinion (religion is a part of me that is why sometimes you read words related to it) and communicate to understand and improve as a natural human act. And if possible, spread love and tolerance and make world a better place for everyone (everyone includes non- theists as you know).
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I won't present you with the argument that religious people doing harm to others in the name of their interpretation of religion makes all religion bad. Its just most likely all false in core assumptions. Rather think about what is behind you selectively choosing the bits in Islam the Koran and bible as the true and correct view.
How do you justify ignoring the calls to violence, the sexism, the support of slavery, and the evil deity described in the bible. I suggest the values we agree on are human values.
That we can judge religions and the deities they describe based on human values.
That a god that ordered us to murder, that takes sides, that commits global genocide, is a monster.
How would you judge a man that tortures his child for a year because it disobeyed. What if torture was 10 years. Well apparently Yahweh will eternally punish some. Even Hitler doors not deserve that. Its not anger. Its just looking out its not all good in your old books.
I'm glad you don't keep slaves or treat wife as chattel. Don't kill homosexuals etc. Isn't it odd that most Jews, Christians and Muslims ignore these divine rules. In some countries they still do kill homosexuals, and they have every reason to if they follow scripture.
Treating scripture or religious dogma as something from god is dangerous. You need to accept the bad as well as the good from religions.better to have evidence for why something is good. Not just god said so, or it says so in the Koran or bible or other religious writings. Mormons don't drink coffee. God said so.
Bob Stiglitz
Thread depth cannot go deeper then about 3 so I'm replying here. I'm saying that each thought you have exists in a "pool" of available resources physically in your head, if we damaged your brain to a certain extent your memory and understanding and possibly even personality would be altered. This memory area of your brain is limited to what you are capable of remembering given your bodies limited resources but there is no guarantee that it is good enough to qualify as sound understanding.
And this applies to everything, even our perceptions of pain, color, feelings, etc when dealing with the world. Much of what we perceive is false and incomplete - it is what the mind produces given limits on resources.
The problem comes with the fact that the problems in our world are CAUSED by people who have minds and bodies that do not work properly, they don't perceive the world accurately.
Our biological mind has to create our awareness (understanding of the world/environment) the problem comes with the mind and human bodies limited resources in terms of energy/nutrients. Say if one day it was proven that people who believe in traditional book based gods have poorly working parts of their mind would you accept it?
"I have read that we cannot observe the real existence of matter in any case, because we are observing the electrical signals in a way that only we can sense, individually"
The problem here is WE DO know of their existence, the computer you rely on - relies on TESTED ideas. You could not have a working computer based on false ideas, so something about those ideas (matter/energy) must have truth value even if the mind has difficulty comprehending it because falsehoods can't produce knowledge that can cause computers to exist.
scienTEDic DT
First question; if what we perceive is generally false and incomplete, than there should be a right and complete version in somewhere that lets you (or some people) make a comparison. How do you define incomplete and complete? What kind of a mind is more close to right perception?Does someone eating healthy food and experiencing sunny, happy life get closer?It seems not enough for me, there should something more.
I’m trying to figure out what is true, correct perception;I mean the “accuracy”. If it is the quality of perception, how could people satisfy with less? Some people say that they are happy but some don’t, how does these feeling arise if the only concept is perception.
Now, maybe I’ll overstep, but I like the challenge you brought into my mind and I want to try to add something that into yours, if you let me.
What if science discovers that the truest, complete and right perception could not be reached ever by human totally, because it is beyond the comprehension and belongs to higher being that has the power over all, it sounds like God to me.(Of course just for me).
Second question; how can you trust a computer, made by a man who has false and incomplete perceptions? The parameters in a computer is based on algorithms and mathematics that men have discovered, and you know that maths also have limits like physics, we can only reach the limits of maths and physics that genius human mind can understand (Genius but still incomplete according to this fact). We don’t know what a black hole hides or we don’t know what is inside the subatomic particles. We just have theories, yet.But I believe that we will discover someday.
If we accept that only computers or calculators are saying the truth, where are emotions?Are they the weakness or strength of a person?I think they are what make you who you are and me who I am, and I don’t want to ignore them
Bob Stiglitz
I'm saying that despite the brains flaws we have developed methods to determine truth from falsehood, the problem comes with people who have bad minds who can't accept that we can know things about traditional book based gods that demonstrate they are false. In that these peoples minds don't work right and they aren't educated/mature enough to accept how truth works.
Medicine and computers are real demonstrations of our ability to discriminate truth from falsehood that has had positive real impacts on human life (extended lifespan, cars, health, etc). Book gods have had no positive material impact on mans health. Prayer has been defeated by medicine. If the koranic god existed science could not so easily show contradictions in the book.
http://islamcontroversy.blogspot.ca/
To be good at truth you have to understand if your ideas are valid and analyze them with sound methods.
scienTEDic DT
I feel like the value of inner conscience is alittle bit missing in this standard ruler.
As I can see from the name, there are some rules that you should accept before you start thinking, which I wouldn't prefer.
I have my own reasons to believe and that grows in me everyday.
New questions arised in my mind, but we can discuss them in another platform as a new topic.
Maaher Sayeed 10+
In the spirit of discussion, I can understand what you are saying and agree with it in part. Yes we are imperfect beings and often do more illogical things and hold unscientific beliefs. But yet, we are the species that is caught in the process of constant evolutions who have developed the most advanced scientific tools and theories. We keep learning all the time and often our old beliefs fail we we learn new things about them. Becasue we cannot afford to rest our inquisitive minds on existing beliefs and we often end up trying to ponder and device further progress and beter understanding. Evev several scientific discoveries and processes that were once to be proven facts change over time as new learnings develop about that subject.
Hence we cannot scientifically prove that a devine entitiy "as in a creator" does not exisit nor can any religion prove it. However, as you said, we create our own problems and device our own solutions. Perhaps just a process of learning from failureand developing.
Wheater we like it or not, we have no choice but to develop and progress as we can only rely on our own intellect regardless of how imperfect we are. Our progress thus far has certainly been impressive enough and only continues to grow. Hence we strive and thrive on developing solutions and progressing. Wejust cannot afford to declasify ourselves as an imperfect species and leave it to the nature and science to define our progress. Science is only a process of learning. Several theories once proven by science continue to be wrong and in the light of new learnings and facts. If one this is certain, it is the "uncertainity". But one thing we can do, is not to hold on to what we believe to be "facts" and continue to progress by learning and developing solutions.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I suggest philosophy and the arts, history etc have important contributions also to help us understand and improve then human condition.
Bob Stiglitz
If you want to serve TRUTH (and hence the real god for the sake of argument) then you must begin with science - nature is the only thing mankind cannot taint with lies like books and words written by men.
No divine being would ever inspire the bible, nor koran, nor any other ancient holy text. There would be no need for belief either since the laws of nature take precedence and are the cause of human behavior. Human beings do not have freedom, they have illusions of freedom.
scienTEDic DT
Bob Stiglitz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ
How a persons understanding and behavior occur is dictated by processes not in your control. You and everyone must acknowledge the supremacy of cause and effect over your behavior first (the TRUTH) before any kind of solution can even begin. You must acknowledge WE as human beings are BROKEN in that we do not understand the basis of our feelings and morals - and what causes us to be that way. Most of our feelings and morals are based in illusion and lack of understanding of the universe. Onc cannot be a moral being without accepting the truth about how the universe works first.
So we need much more research into the human mind, body and how the interactions effect behavior.
The way the human mind constructs and understands is the problem, we all suffer from not living in the 'real world' our mind creates bits and pieces it forces us to perceive and make us feel as if it is truth.
The problem is human beings confuse how they feel with knowledge, feelings are IMPORTANT but being moral requires a high degree of inborn talent and a penchant for learning beyond most human beings.
Perception and awareness of the world has physical costs in terms of ENERGY and resources, people forget that and think all mens minds are "good enough" but our minds are NOT good enough and our world reflects our false beliefs... illusions... that we are good and moral people.
Moral people would never tolerate the existence of the way our current world works, many things that now exist would never even be a possibility to be considered.
Socrates was a heathen according to koran (anyone who does not accept X holybooks god is enemy and sentenced to death eternal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates
Do you believe socrates was moral?
scienTEDic DT
But, I'm trying to understand, help me. What do you mean by; "The way the human mind constructs and understands is the problem, we all suffer from not living in the 'real world' our mind creates bits and pieces it forces us to perceive and make us feel as if it is truth."
I have read that we cannot observe the real existence of matter in any case, because we are observing the electrical signals in a way that only we can sense, individually. I can never see the color "RED" as you see, or taste "SUGAR" as you taste. But it doesn't mean that RED and SUGAR do not exist, they are exist in the outer world but the way I sense them is unique for me.
Is it what you are trying to say?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Also I don't known if believing in dogma and myth makes you immoral. Perhaps it is what you do.
Then we also get into the debate of what is moral or ethical.
Bob Stiglitz
I take as given valuing lies as a negative attribute.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Firstly, there is no compelling evidence for supernatural gods.
Second, there are thousands of gods and goddesses, more denominations, millions and billions of interpretation s.
They can't all be true, but people believe their beliefs are correct, even if inherited from when and where you live.
Each with their own rationale why true.
They are plainly man made, by men mostly.
If there are gods we have no idea which interpretation s are correct if any.
Suggest science shows we evolved.
Suggest respect, peace, love are human values, related to the human condition, and while religious traditions may include some positive values, they also contain a lot of rubbish. Sexist. Fascist. Homophobic. Gods tgast take sides, kill, flood, order murder, and taking animals. Divine command does not actually make something moral.
Suggest if we focus on our shared humanity, not this or that superstitious dogma, we would be much better off.
What we reasonably know is we have one life, and it is better if we try get along.
You are welcome to your religion but you can keep your dogmatic views on how we should live to yourself, unless there is some secular rationale.
scienTEDic DT
As I said before, I respect your choice, but do not agree the way you support it. Secularity is a necessity and I haven’t even mentioned about it in my idea on top, because that is not what I was talking about. But as we are now, secularity is an obligation for freedom and true religion includes secularity. That is why I’m against bigotry (in all minds). Man should think, ask questions, search, discover, understand and then believe in whatever they want to believe.
By the way, it is interesting that you have chosen Ben’s name as your nickname. That character was a devoted defender of a religious sect.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I support freedom of speech, which includes the right to offend.
I respect peoples right to hold their views even if I disagree.
But Happy to debate. I dont think we always need to tippy toe around issues such as the god of the old testament being sexist, homophobic, a murderer, jealous etc. Have you read it.
Call a spade a spade. The god of the is claimed to have killed hundreds of thousands, and ordered the deaths of millions. Thatbsjust the verses with numbered, not including the global flood that kills everyone but Noah's family.
This book tells humans its okay to beat slaves as long as they dontbdie, that we should kill homosexuals and adulters and rude kids and people who work on holy days. If your new wife is not a virgin you should kill her in front of her father.
Seriously enlightenment values, human rights etc are far superior to biblical or Quranic morality on the whole in my view.
I reread my comment above and perhaps the word rubbish was less than ideal. The rest is fine.
Hopefully I'm not a bigot just because I say I don't believe your religious interpretation is incorrect and the source materials say some nasty things. I guess you think people who believe in other gods, or Buddhism, etc are incorrect.
Glad we agree on secularism as a sound foundation for freedom of and from religion.
I also reread your opening statement, and may have misinterpreted your assumptions of a god and creation and mentions of the quran as a claim we should look to the Quran to promote peace love etc. If I got that wrong, I apologise.
Still I'm not sure assuming creation and a creator is helpful in regards to determining how we ought best live to have the most fulfilling lives, to get along and reduce suffering.
scienTEDic DT
Richard Krooman 50+
"Most effective way is spreading the concept of love, peace and respect by explaining Creation with scientific proof."
There is no "love / peace / respect" in the scientific proofs. There is just physics and a few questions.
If anything when you purely believe in science there is not much to live for as all you'll be doing throughout your life is moving some molecules/atoms around. There is no real reason to be virtuous. At least 'religion' tells you that "when you are virtuous you'll go to heaven" (heaven standing for every other name of the concept of heaven there can be ofcourse).
We should just be spreading the concepts of love / peace / respect by showing people what being loved and respected can feel like (peace will follow automatically).
scienTEDic DT
I became a scientist to discover and learn, and I really amazed when I learned many details about the tiny and huge creatures that live around me and all around the world. That gave me more passion to discover and learn and it continues since then. I do respect your idea, but sorry that I cannot agree with your first words. Science and investigation and every proof I learned brought me love and respect to life. So knowledge and education is very important and basics of your last sentence.
And I agree with you last sentence totally, although words are necessary, they are not enough. Acting according to these concepts is vitally important.
When it comes to atoms, they are the tiny particles carrying the strongest force in the universe (strong nuclear force). I wonder if you have watched a documentary about physics, “What the bleep do we know!?” scientific proofs and explanations about atomic and subatomic particles were amazing… They are still beyond our comprehension.
Richard Krooman 50+
The world painted by science is a fascinating one. And knowledge and education are extremely important.
However science does not show any need for love / peace / respect / or any virtues at all.
If you would "explain creation with scientific proof" the first reaction would be that faith is completely obliderated... the church will probably tell the world you're wrong and ban you (like galileo and pretty much all other philosophers before / after who doubted anything in the bible).
Those who will fall off of their faith might think: hey if theres no heaven... I don't have to be nice to get there. I've always "liked my neighbours wife" so if I just "kill her husband" I'll be able to do whatever I want... effectively breaking all 10 commandments there are in that part (I assume all commandments of god himself are broken be the proof that there is no god).
Ofcourse my example is exagurated quite a bit but you get the idea.
There is no atom saying that we should become men of virtue.
scienTEDic DT
There are some people who cannot accept this point of view in my Country also (I call this as bigotry), but I don’t afraid of being Galileo. He is still right about what he said. Although I respect everyone’s choice, I’m totally against any kind of bigotry. People can be modern, scientific and religious at the same time.
But, it was surprising that I also witness bigotry in scientific societies, some scientists don’t listen to the other person just because he/she is religious. So, this is a bilateral prejudgment problem caused by both sides.
Actually being nice should not be just for getting to heaven, it seems insincere to me as a believer... But I got what you are trying to say. And I think if there were no immoralists, we could never understand the difference between the moral and immoral, like day and night. However, everyone has a consciousness and hears a sound in their head although there is no sound out there… There are so many situations in life only you experience and only you know how to act deep inside you. I can see that you are a clever person. So, you already have your own moral values in you, how did they grow in you?
Richard Krooman 50+
I was brought up to believe that everyone starts out equal. Because of that I treat others the way I would like to be treated.
Sometimes people however show a complete lack of empathy and I have no problem in treating them the same way they treat me hehe ;)
As to the point of being scientific and religious...
I could see how some physics students might not take religious people serious but only the very narrow minded scientific guys can do that.
I have no problem with religion in science because of the "brain in a vat" principle. It tells us that science can never prove that our perceptions are correct.
Therefor you can never truely show that there is no god which leads to "religion being possibly true".
Then according to, I think it's pascal but I'm not sure, some philosopher you would be in a situation if you 'bet on religion' that if it's true you'll be happy in death while if it's not true you would be equally dead as if you did not believe. So according to him there is no negative aspect to believing.
scientists who deny the above are wrong! If they would argue that they can prove that they are not a brain in a vat then allow them to finish their story and just ask some questions in between that make them doubt even more.
Ofcourse people are also free to believe whatever they want to believe as long as I don't have to do anything for them.
Then again for me personally... I cannot believe in god because religion causes so much destruction and hatred across the globe that it cannot be true (in my eyes ofcourse).
scienTEDic DT
Richard Krooman 50+
I don't think religion causes all wars / hate / .... But for me (aka my own opinion!) the fact that the "most holy place on earth" (according to many religions) has been in a constant turmoil for over millenia is enough proof that religion has to be false.
Also even the holiest of men alive according to christianity (the current as well as previous popes) have commited so many indirect deaths that sometimes I wonder if it's their job to 'get as many people into heaven as they can in the short time that they are in power'.
But I also think that religion on a personal level is very valuable.
I like it that they can "know" that dieing just is another way of continueing elsewhere. And I like most of the idiologies in there. Also it's nice that they talk among eachother about social issues etc. etc. (there are many good points ;p)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Science with philosophy are perhaps the best tools we have to improve the human condition.
Richard Krooman 50+
I like your approach to life.
But you know.... I don't like the easy answers that the rest of the world is finding.
I like most of the answers I found though but I kinda stand alone... My guess would be that I'm similar to you :D
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Could be similar.
I guess one thing I would like to highlight is that being evolved animals reducible to atoms does not mean we need to ignore art, love, etc.
We may have natural explanations for the feelings of love, sacrifices, oxytocin, group survival etc, but we still can value the experience, we can still look at what enriches our short lives. Suggest most of us would prefer to be surrounded with love and art not hate and primal brutality.
We have evolved to have instincts and reason and appreciation of art and music.
Its not an either or proposition.
Science as part of a broader naturalistic big picture can help more fulfilling lives.
Agree that people like moses as described would be war criminals today.
Maybe people can pick and choose the good bits from dogmas and scripture etc, but I think it is risky because they are next to nasty bits, and thinking you have some sort of absolute truth is dangerous. It can exacerbate our worst.
Richard Krooman 50+
I also (like you) won't say that we can't enjoy life / feel feelings because we can explain them. What I said was the other way around. What I tried to say was "you can't teach enjoyment through explaining it with science". (learning about science itself can be entertaining / enjoyable though but that's a whole other topic)
I am actually not entirely sure if knowing more can help us lead more fulfilling lives. As the great philosophers of The Matrix teach us "Ignorance is bliss".
As to your last paragraph... hmmm I'm not sure why you put that in a reply to me, but I can tell you my views on it regardless of the reason for bringing it up.
I know that there are many things I can not know, and probably will never know. If there is a god is one of them (although I guess I'll find out if there is one when I die.. if theres none it's a more complex answer as I can't find out because I'm not there anymore).
Also I can never know if I'm "inside the matrix" or not.
I believe certain things to be true, but in all fairness I would not find it impossible to learn that everything I was once believed to be true are in fact all false.
This is a view which I dearly miss at many religious people though. They all "know that god exists"' even though it's even called "faith" of which the definition is that "you hold it to be true regardless of a lack of evidence to support your views".
I myself have many theories on how the world works... I even have a lot of faith that I am correct with them. But I know that I could be wrong. Which is why I try to parttake in many discussions (to learn about other views / explainations / new facts / etc.).
One point which I would like to add is: I don't know why so many "religous nuts" (people that won't even consider other views than those in their faith) actually parttake in debates....
Maaher Sayeed 10+
Terror and violence can only be eradicated by education and elimination of prejudice in society. People who indulge in such acts use religion as their tool to muster support from the uneducated. And people who blame the religion for individual acts of terror are also uneducated.
All prophets and faith systems have almost identical principles of love, hate, good and evil. But the ones who organized the religions based on these prophets teachings basterdized the concepts for political purposes and cultural control.
You speak of Islam. The Prophet Mohammed has a famous quote. It is`The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr`But those who follow the faith do not follow this.
Such examples exisit in amlost all faith systems. But the leaders of these faiths who organized the books and cultural norms and rules were politically motivated which evetually lead ot wars and violence.
But we can change. We are lote more intelligent and educated tahn our ancestors, but we are too lazy to learn or voice positive opinions. Many take comfort in thier beliefs and stop the evolution of faith systems with the changing times. Yet many are changing in many small and big ways. The muslim world sees progressive development in the form of what is now being called as Arab Spring. People are getting tired of hate. And this is happening in almost every religion. Hence you see many choosing to follow the principles of the religions but defy the rituals, books and norms becasue it no longer makes any sense to the modern man.
scienTEDic DT
carolyn mcauley 10+
scienTEDic DT
scienTEDic DT
Rob Cork
scienTEDic DT
Dear Rob,
I hope this miserable dream model would stay only in dreams :) cos’ it reminded me the model of Anarres of The Dispossessed (novel by Ursula Le Guin – although not agree with whole story, nice to read!). They were the slaves of the concept of freedom and as they left moral values, family, religion and other relations they also lost love, deep feeling, passion and other emotions. They were like robotics! I hope the true moral values (like love and tolerance) will unite the world as one, including all religions with respect, excluding egocentrism that separates people.
Gail . 50+
You are right in that education, peace and respect will go a long way towards curing our globe's social ills. And you are right that awakening to consciousness is key. But one who depends on a religion to tell them "the way" is not awakened.
Parth Mahida
the most assence thing is understanding and care towards everyone.....