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Adel Bibi

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Can anyone prove the existence of a supernatural deity?

I think that any philosophical ideal that isn't governed by the laws of physics will never be proven. Therefore, I guess all gods are just delusion. Whenever a person believes in god, that is because he found his parents doing so. Which means all our beliefs are nothing but a geographical accident!

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    Dec 6 2012: Greetings Adel,

    I will try to be as clear as possible.

    Supernatural means "above/beyond the natural" - which can be taken two ways; A. beyond our understanding of nature and B. beyond nature in general.

    This is an important thing to note: 1. If we know there is knowledge beyond what we know as knowledge, this creates possible worlds where our knowledge is subject to change, even what we consider 'laws'. 2. If even our most profound and static laws are possible to be changed, then what can we know to be [objectively or absolutely] true?

    The fact we cannot prove a non-human deity to exist, may not be a reason a non-human deity could exist, but does not justify a reason for that it cannot. Therefore, the claim cannot be proven either way to be true or false by any amount of reasoning.

    "I think that any philosophical ideal that isn't governed by the laws of physics will never be proven."

    I find this statement troubling. The laws of physics cannot explain the psychological natures of a human mind. In fact, there is no mathematical schema in which to measure our ability to think.This is why psychology is considered a 'soft science'... so any philosophical ideal out of a soft science will never be proven? Hardly the case. I would revise your position of what can be proven or not.

    Now.. the core of the issue: Can a God/deity be proven to exist?

    Yes. But, depends on your definition of God.

    Abraham Maslow was a psychologist who investigated 'peak experience' or what Buddhist would call 'satori' - roughly; a moment in which an individual feels at one with the universe. This experience involves, usually, feeling an energy of all knowing and all accepting feelings. It can be argued these experiences are [mis]interpreted experiences of God.

    So, if God is this universal consciousness, then God does exist, as many have experienced satori (empirically even). Whether this cosmic consciousness is a deity, well that is up to how you want to define deity.
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      Dec 6 2012: and we dont know if this so called cosmic consciousness is just a local brain state.
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        Dec 6 2012: I do believe consciousness is a force that permeates the universe, and if some mistaken that experience to be God - well, that's an issue, but would also be evidence in their favor of theism.

        To add: I feel the emotions one experiences during their moments of God-thought are similar and comparable to those who have moments of the contrary; those who do not believe in God can feel the same feeling one does when they do in fact believe in a God.

        Although this feeling is achieved in two contrary manners, perhaps the fact we are able to achieve this metaphysical comfort (of a psychoactive state of mind) may also be evidence of a God, therefore why would we need to have this experience unless it granted some benefit of metaphysical awareness.

        Indeed it could be delusional, but we do not know yet - DMT may have answers. Check out the [cognitive] psychology of religion!
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          Dec 7 2012: Or your consciousness may reside as a product of your brain.

          What makes you think there is some consciousness outside of brains?
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        Dec 7 2012: Obey,

        If it were just my mind that had experience supraconsciousness, I would say yes to it just my consciousness enhanced by meditation. But many people have said to experienced Peak Experience or Satori and their experiences overlap to the point where empirical data can show the reoccurring supraconsciousness experience has similarities to everyone. The feelings are subjective, but when a lot of subjective experiences stack up, there must be something there. I also do not claim to understand cosmic consciousness, but believe it exist in some form.

        Check this out: http://supraconsciousnessnetwork.org/Home.htm

        Go browse through the keywords and enjoy having your mind blown...
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          Dec 8 2012: Hi Nicholas,

          I'm not surprised there are similarities. Our DNA, our brains, our cognitive processes are not that different.

          You put my hand in a flame, I will feel pain the same way as you. Must be magic.

          I meditate and get into a brain state and others do at church or whatever.

          We take acid or MDMA and we have similar experiences.

          You put people praying in an MRI and see their brain active in the same way. So our brain is part of it.

          You just can't prove this experience is linked to something outside our mind.

          I hope you can see that.

          Our minds and brains and the natural universe are amazing. And today our understanding and knowledge is pushing the limits of our monkey brains, mine anyway.

          Just thinking about being made of atoms, just thinking about what atoms are, what is outside the edge of the expanding universe etc. How does consciousness work, memory.

          I think the difficulty we have comprehending, the strangeness of the natural universe is why people insert magic. It provides a similar explanation or replaces I don't know with no actual proof.

          Our brains 100 Billion neurons with a 100 trillion connections. Every neuron made a complex cell, made from compounds and near countless atoms, and atoms made of x and y etc etc.

          Its strange. Its counter intuitive. Your explanation might be right. That would be a fluke, because there is no proof.

          I'm not arguing the experiences, I'm arguing about the interpretations of these. You might find some intuitive speculative explanation fits your world view. But it is still a position from ignorance.

          Like NDE, like alien abductions. People experienced something, but the interpretation are yet to be convincingly proven if you have reasonable skepticism and an open mind.
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        Dec 7 2012: "What makes you think there is some consciousness outside of brains?"

        What makes you think there isn't?

        Neither mind nor consciousness has been found in the brain, only physical activity associated with brain activity. We can find similar activity--reception activity--in a radio and television set when they're on, and we associate that activity with the processing of radio and television signals from a transmission source that will ultimately become sounds in one, and sounds and sights in another, and we do so without thinking that the sounds and sights originated within either radio or television.

        The brain, although a more complex receiver, is none the less, a receiver.
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          Dec 9 2012: Any evidence for the brain being a receiver.

          Anything physical indicative of it being a receiver?

          Or just more unsubstantiated speculation?

          Yet we have no evidence for consciousness or mind without brains.

          The only good thing about your argument is it is unverifiable.
          As the brain deteriorates, cognitive functions suffer, like dementia. It seems as the brain is damaged so is functionaluty as the biological source of mind, awareness, intelligence etc. I guess you can assert without proof that the receiver is damaged.
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        Dec 10 2012: Obey,

        The examples I will provide will not be suffice for you, because you already made up your mind.

        But... Ever walk into a room and felt a mood? Ever get a vibe that something was wrong with someone?

        Yes, your body can unconsciously be reading these things right? Well, what are they reading? Subtle signs? Faces? Postures? A variation of these things? Do you honestly believe your sub- and unconsciousness can actually know the mood or vibe is different because of little variables?

        We, all, off put energy... This energy is a not in of itself consciousness, but when received can form a consciousness. There are developing empirical test where they ask what people believe 'angry' and 'happy' energy looks like on a person and to draw the thoughts... when done a few hundred times they overlapped the results and found a striking consistency. Angry was crazy like fire, and happiness was not really near the head (I believe).

        There exist celestial energies... astrology is the oldest pseudoscience for a reason (what reason?). Well the fact there are energies that effect us, like the moon. A lot of farmers do not pick their crops during a certain cycle of the moon because the water is all in the roots, and not spread through the plant (less tasty plant).

        For any of this to be half way believable, you're going to have to look into it yourself to try and find the falsehoods. I hate the phrase "the burden of truth is..." because you have to want to entertain a thought before you can see it, especially if it is supranatural. Go keep reading the link I sent you. It's good stuff.
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      Dec 7 2012: @Nicholas Lukowiak,

      Excuse my English as it's not my first language.

      I'd like to set this clear. I don't believe that such "Absolute truth" can ever exist. Every thing is relative. This really makes my life miserable because there is exactly no basis by which I can set up my mind on any topic.
      But I think science is an exception here.

      Scientists couldn't SO FAR explain the fully behavior of our brain, we probably don't have a 1% understanding of the human brain. But if we went back to history, you will know that science has so far solved most of the problems and un-answered questions of the past.

      i.e
      People in the dark ages in fact believed that god was responsible for people getting sick, until science came and discovered that there are micro living orgasms that is actually responsible for diseases.

      So, I believe if science can not understand the human brain, it will in the future.
      It's not because we don't have good answers about the human consciousness and how it may extend beyond our brain, we say "this is an indication that something is up there".

      Quantum mechanics teaches up how an electron due to the wave function can be in lots of places at once, as we are all made of subatomic particles, it's likely that one of the subatomic particles that make up our brain was actually outside our body and somehow interacted with another person's brain which causes "telepathic thought exchange". It may be the answer to the " super consciousness experience".

      All i'm trying to say that what you mentioned about weird and mind blowing facts about " super consciousness experience" could be explained by quantum mechanics and there are in facts lots of theories going on.

      As far as I see, science will manage to answer all the questions as long as the human race didn't actually extinct. :)
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        Dec 8 2012: "People in the dark ages in fact believed that god was responsible for people getting sick, until science came and discovered that there are micro living orgasms that is actually responsible for diseases."

        Actually, the jury is still out on this, not the part about God being responsible for disease, but that "micro living organisms" are "responsible."

        Witnessing the deterioration of the body after death, and the subsequent presence of maggots, we might assume that maggots caused the death of the body. The presence of "micro living organisms" suggests a disease within the body, but that presence alone cannot be said to have caused it, and neither can the absence of the organisms, nor the eradication of them, be said to have effected a cure.

        "So, I believe if science can not understand the human brain, it will in the future."

        It's not the "brain" that science has trouble "understanding," it's the mind and the consciousness that supposedly emanate from the brain, that perplex science, and has given rise to what is termed the mind-body dilemma, or the mind-body problem.

        Mind is so unlike matter that it boggles the mind that matter can produce that which is so unlike itself.

        From my vantage point, and my experience, science will never fully understand the relationship between mind and the brain with the assumption that brain gives rise to consciousness, rather than existing as a receiver of thoughts that originate outside the brain.

        "It may be the answer to the 'super consciousness experience'."

        A clever proposition, but it still doesn't answer all the questions associated with mind, such as the experiences associated with NDE's and prediction.

        It appears that science, and those who subscribe to it, have a difficult time theorizing a non-physical cause for the mysteries associated with the mind.

        Without a non-physical hypothesis, the dilemma between mind and matter, the brain and consciousness, will persist, and will forever evade the brightest of minds.
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        Dec 10 2012: What people believe is or may be God will also be discovered in the future by science, by your own thoughts... whether it is a neurological mechanism involved with joy and all-knowing... if God is an actual omni-being... if God is this conscious-force that permeates the universe... or two or three... until then... do not make claims you do not know, because the burden of proof is on you to claim no-God, just like it is for those who do claim God.

        Keep the question open, entertain all possibilities...

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