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What do you think of the idea of mind over matter?

What if I told you that science is proving the things that the "ancients" said where possible. the ability to change our surroundings with thought alone, healing the sick with our energy. Souls, life after death, the ability to tap into untapped mental/spiritual potential. Like pre-cog, and empathy. Noetic science has weighed the "human soul", while Noetic science and bio-field research have started studying human consciousness and energy fields. Where as before many thought these as fairy tales, and fantasy, made only for things such as Star Wars and Star Treck, or religion, which tells stories of healing the sick with the mind, and things spoken into existence. Can we really do it? Now science is going about to prove these questions.
So what do you think? Possible, but improbable? Or probable, but impossible.

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    Dec 3 2012: if you don't mind then it doesn't matter..
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    Dec 2 2012: "What do you think of the idea of mind over matter?"

    I believe that I know where you're going with the question, and I'm tempted to answer it in a way for which you're not prepared, but I'll demur for now, and resist the temptation.

    "What if I told you that science is proving the things that the 'ancients' said where possible."

    The power that you ascribe to the "ancients" are powers that are extant today, and are practiced by many. For compelling reasons, many of these adepts do what they do outside of the watchful eye of humankind, well aware of the risk that comes with revelation.

    For my part, scientists are late to the party, and I don't need them to validate the existence of metaphysical potentialities that have always existed, potentialities which a certain number of humans have always accessed and employed, not only antediluvians, but many living today.

    "Can we really do it?"

    Indubitably! Many are doing it now. It's not only "possible," it's a day-to-day reality for many.
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      Dec 2 2012: Mr. Hunt. What do you study? Ig I'm asking you to site your sources, but only because I want to know. Not because I don't believe you. And please, respond in a way that I'm not prepared! I want to know what you are thinking. And also, from the way you talk about "not having ever lived in a physical body", I'm thinking that you've astral projected? Or had an O.B.E? And I'm sad to say, I'm not one of those "many" who practice these things. I have the structure of my religion blocking me. I don't know if it would be good or bad if I were to.... "awaken"...or even almost. But, I'm very interested in you, sir. So please, enlighten me ;)
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        Dec 2 2012: "What do you study?"

        I like you: You have a hunger and a thirst for knowledge--not just any knowledge but the esoteric, that which humankind has either forsaken or has allowed itself to forget. We have that in common.

        Much of my knowledge comes from the Source within, that wellspring of Wisdom that resides within each of us, inexhaustible, and immediately available.

        I've read many books over the years in search of knowledge that elucidated and reaffirmed my own inner knowing. Here are two:

        "A Course In Miracles." http://acim.org/. "Conversations With God: An Uncommon Dialogue." http://www.cwg.org/ [and here:] http://www.amazon.com/Conversations-With-God-Uncommon-Dialogue/dp/0399142789/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354489526&sr=8-1&keywords=conversations+with+god+book+1

        If the last title, "Conversations With God," caught your attention, know this: Many people living on the planet today are having conversations with God. They aren't always revealing such conversations for fear that they will be ridiculed and their mental state called into question.

        One not so shy about it has a Web presence here: http://www.sherrysword.com/ .

        "I'm thinking that you've astral projected?"

        Not only are you a seeker of knowledge, you're astute, indicating, already, a predisposition to know and remember what most are purposely hiding from themselves.

        Yes, I'm an out-of-body explorer, practically born with the ability, which I later learned equipped me for a higher purpose--one that I won't divulge here, but suffice to say, it has worldwide implications.

        With it came other abilities, one of which I discussed briefly on another blog: http://www.ted.com/conversations/15127/the_case_for_cloud_seeding.html .

        I'm reluctant to discuss these abilities as that discussion puts a bright red target on my back.

        "I have the structure of my religion blocking me."

        The Church has long attributed these abilities to the devil, but remember, the church of his day said of Jesus, that he had a devil.
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          Dec 3 2012: I like you too :) You have answers :) and the books that I have, haven't read them completely, include the Zohar.. well, I have a lot of books (on pdf), but the Zohar is the one I'm most happy with, because it ties in with the Bible, and therefore gives me less of a not guilty, but defensive conscience. And I've learned a lot by stumbling and researching, so don't call me astute..well..I have always wondered, ad tried to do things intermittently throughout my life. I did do something once, a looong time ago, and had a.. vision? It hasn't happened yet, what I saw, so idk. But i do remember telling my father and grandfather when it was happening, like, i ran down the stairs to tell them. And when they got there what I saw was gone, and since I was really young, they thought I was lying... but thats the only time it's ever happened. So idk if I'm astute. Even though it sounds cool.
          Anyways, on to astral projecting
          I learned about that because I kept getting sleep paralysis, and it was terrifying, so I looked it up. I've almost done it, but the process is so scary, and even when I'm aware that I'm going to be afraid, the "Gatekeeper" keeps distracting me.. I think my dad or someone is standing in the room to wake me up, so I force myself out of SP, only to find no one there, of course. Or, when I passed that part, i felt like something or someone was right in my ear, emitting this really low vibration, almost like a growl, that tickled a(you know when someone tries say something to you in your ear, and it tickles?), and terrified me.. so.... I dunno. I'm scared now, lol
          Also
          Are you a lightworker?
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        Dec 3 2012: "Are you a lightworker?"

        And you say that you're not "astute."

        During this lifetime I have three titles, one of them is "LightWorker." It's not one that I readily admit as it opens me up to a variety of assults, but those who attack me, attack themselves, and woe to those that do.

        There's a strong possibility that this may be my last incarnation--as we're now entering a New Age, a New Way, where a New Wind will blow our way until the day we die.

        It's my hope that I've done my work well enough to move on: I can no longer recognize the world now for its foreignness and its abrasiveness on my sensibilities.

        "I learned about that because I kept getting sleep paralysis."

        Astral projection is one doorway to the non-physical realm, but there are others, others which I'm reticent to reveal because in many instances it's like giving matches to children with which to play--the flames they ignite are beautiful to watch, but the potential for during harm is always a present, and real possibility.

        Fear attracts that which is feared. In Job's words: "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."

        If you conquer your fear, you will open a passageway to worlds without end, and gain access to past and future lives. We live all our lives simultaneously.

        The Bible abounds with knowledge, but one need eyes with which to see it, although much of that knowledge is hiding in plain sight.
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          Dec 3 2012: Mr hunt, we should talk more. It seems you have a lot of knowledge, and I would like to know, and possibly learn from you. Are you ok with emailing me?
          And what are you talking about? "There's a strong possibility that this may be my last incarnation--as we're now entering a New Age, a New Way, where a New Wind will blow our way until the day we die."
          And I assure you, I am not an impulsive child when it comes to things like matches. I think about things like this daily. Going back and forth in my mind, why and why not, should I, or should I not. And things that seem legitly scary are scary! It takes a set mind to look at something that is supposed to be scary and say it's only scary because I think it is.
          As a friend of mine told me, "the knowledge of the ignorance is sometime unbearable". Really, it kills me. And it kills me, because I don't have the eyes, and there is a way to get it that seems simple, but in reality is very hard.
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          Dec 4 2012: Oh and no evidence for spirit either in the magical sense. Another human concept with no proof but some intuitive compatibility with some belief systems.

          No life after death or reincarnation as far as we know.

          And we can pick out all sorts of insights into human nature, life, religion, society, tribal mythology, laws, teachings from any substantial religious tradition. Some of it will be correct. Some speculative nonsense. Some clearly false. There will be bits that fit or can be interpreted to fit your world view. Other bits you may ignore. Some of it just a matter of opinion. And there is many contradictory texts and interpretations. They can not all be right.

          Is your path top knowledge just latching on to what makes sense to you or seeing patterns or connections across human social technologies, religious constructs?

          Why do you think your subjective interpretation is better than others. How many Christian sects? How many individual belief systems? How many conflicting religions and beliefs based on subjective interpretations?

          How do you distinguish between a dream and reality. Between astral projection and hallucination?
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        Dec 3 2012: "There's a strong possibility that this may be my last incarnation--as we're now entering a New Age, a New Way, where a New Wind will blow our way until the day we die."

        "And what are you talking about?"

        I was referencing myself, not others. I've known for sometime that this could very well be my last life (incarnation), or my last life for what may be eons, as we reckon time.

        We humans have lived many previous lives, as one lifetime doesn't provide sufficient opportunity to experience all that we are. Unlike many others, I have allowed myself to remember several of those lifetimes, especially those that impinge on my current life.

        "And things that seem legitly scary are scary! It takes a set mind to look at something that is supposed to be scary and say it's only scary because I think it is."

        In the movie, "Dune," one of the characters repeats this chant:

        "I must not fear.
        Fear is the mind-killer.
        Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
        I will face my fear.
        I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
        And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
        Where the fear has gone there will be nothing......Only I will remain."

        Every fear is a "little death." And this fear can be an impediment to the exploration of what is often referred to as the supernatural.

        Fear is creative: It creates the very things we're hoping to avoid, not only as we venture forth into what mystics refer to as the "astral world," but as we venture forth into our day-to-day world.

        "And it kills me, because I don't have the eyes, and there is a way to get it that seems simple, but in reality is very hard."

        Our beliefs create our reality, but we're always free to change our beliefs, as we're at choice about all things--things small and things large.

        A thing is "hard" if we say it's hard. We humans are extraordinary beings, with capabilities that we haven't begun to tap.

        "Are you ok with emailing me?"

        I'm okay.
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          Dec 3 2012: Why is it your last? have you learned everything? and you can get my email from my profile.
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        Dec 3 2012: "you can get my email from my profile."

        I searched your profile for it, but didn't find it. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place.
  • Dec 4 2012: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” In the original Greek manuscript, the word for Word was the Greek word Logos, which means much more than “word.” The Logos is defined by philosophers and theologians as the rational principle that governs and develops the universe. So, information/mind comes first, but it's difficult to avoid ambiguity here; there is no clear definition of mind or matter. And it's our human logical mind that needs something to be prior to everything that fallows. In timeless continuum causality shatters, mind and matter are one.
    'Mind and matter are not separate substances. Rather, they are different aspects of our whole and unbroken movement.”
    It's the way David Bohm put it and i think truth is somewhere there .
    There is a Zen koan that illustrates the point :Is it the wind moving or is it the flag? The monk answers, neither, its your mind that is moving.
    It's what i think, thanks for asking ! :)
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      Dec 5 2012: "Is it the wind moving or is it the flag? The monk answers, neither, its your mind that is moving."

      I agree: We do live in a mental universe, and the movement of the flag by the force of the wind can be controlled by mind.

      Until mind intrudes, however, the wind behaves according to its windness, just as the wave according to its waveness, and light according to its lightness, which is to carry out its nature as defined by the divine principle of its nature--"this far and no farther."

      Behind it all--the physical, material universe--resides another, an unseen, matrix of a sort, that gives life and intelligence to the seen, directing it according to its predetermined nature.

      Since all is tributary to Mind--despite a thing's predetermined nature--water can be turned to wine, the winds can be commanded to "be still," the sick can be made whole, and the dead awaken from their sleep of death.
      • Dec 5 2012: "We do live in a mental universe."

        Agreed, it's what our mind can tell us, but let's make a leap : we are the Universe.
        It's not just words, somehow i do ' understand ' it ( Sufi had a word that can be translated into English as ' standunder ' , it's much closer to what i have ), but it's hard to tell. Actually, it sounds wired , because it's so familiar . Would you agree that we are not in crisis as media put it, but we are crisis ? In QM each process is a part of the Whole and is the Whole. Holographic principle, Mandelbrot set tell the same story by different ways. " God is within " - what is it about ? All information is here , if it is not here it is nowhere else.
        It's not the problem to figure it out, the problem is to feel/ be the universe the Whole ...God. Is it possible ? Yes, it is, but "it cost you not less than everything" ( T. S. Eliot )
        Ego keeps us inside, not matter ( nobody knows what matter is, it's magic :) if not ego we are out...
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      Dec 7 2012: Nice poetic creation mythlogy.

      Which contrdicts itself in ch 2

      Not sure why you would take the bible as an authority.

      Do you also take the parts that tell you to kill homosexuals and adulterers.

      Do you also take the parts that endorse slavery and genocide.

      Or do you pick and choose?
      • Dec 8 2012: Hi, Obey !
        I am not religious and don't take bible as an authority; it's a source of information among many others and it's great !
        Try to read the bible with unfocused mind , let your intuition connect the dots and test it against your direct experience and yes, science.
        People who use the Bible ( or Koran ) to justify slavery genocide and killing anyone ( homosexuals included ) have their personal agenda or simply didn't get the message.

        Btw. thanks for ' Nice poetic creation mythlogy." comment , you are kind !
        Thank you !
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          Dec 11 2012: Hi Natasha,

          The bible has some amazing poetry and stories even when translated to English. Its an important cultural document.

          There are many ways to read it or other texts. The literal word of god. A historical and cultural relic. Or to make intuition connections with your world view.

          I'm sure people reading it can come up with all sorts of insights. Many of them conflicting. Intuition can lead to insights, or profound moments of realisation. We love making connections. And if yours are different to others, it is hard to differentiate between the subjective interpretations.

          What we do know is contradictory claims can not all be correct.

          Everyone is welcome to their subjective intuitive dot joining. But if you want to have a discussion about what is , verifiable or correct, we need a different or follow on approach.

          By the way I've read it cover to cover in many different mind sets. These days i see it as a diverse collection of books by many human authors, with creation and cultural mythology etc related to the god of one small human tribe in the of. A god that is cruel, evil even, killing everyone, jealous, a murder. And fortunately, probably completely man made.
      • Dec 12 2012: Hi, Obey !
        ".... completely man made "
        What is not ? :)
        That is the key question, actually. You believe that there is ' objective reality' , which is out there ( correct me if i am wrong ) I believe, that the border between 'out there' and 'in here' is a persistent illusion of a human mind. It doesn't mean that i don't inhabit it :)
        " Never assume the obvious is true " What you perceive, your observations, feelings, interpretations, are all your truths. Your truth is important. Yet it is not The Truth. You can find the Truth if you are all out, but there will be no 'you ' to get it.
        I know, it doesn't sound persuasive and it shouldn't .
        " Ask and ye shall find "

        Best to you !
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          Dec 14 2012: Hi Natasha,

          Hmm objective reality. Its a tough one because we need to process it ultimately through our senses and minds, even with the aid of technology.

          Let me put it this way, there are things we can reliably verify within human limitations, and things, ideas, or undreamed of real or imagined things that we have not or currently can not verify one way other.

          As long as we are open about and distinguish between what is humanly reasonably verifiable and what isn't. Just because we don't know anything absolutely, we don't need to assume all claims are equal. But agree we are often limited by our paradigms.

          BTW I have changed my views on many things, or refined them while arguing a current position, but s a balancing act to get the right balance between open minded and having a best guess.

          Thanks for discussion.
  • Dec 2 2012: MIND is matter. Matter IS MIND

    or as Blake said it "Strange and hard this tail I tell but true. Object gross and Unseem Soul are One.

    Existence would not "exist" if this were not fact.
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      Dec 2 2012: I didn't get that at all, lol. Could you elaborate? I got the first point, so is that what that is trying to say? 'Cause that was confusing. What is object gross and unseem soul?
      • Dec 2 2012: Old

        Object "gross" ....gross...... is the external world ...."unseen" was my sp (sorry) it should have been "Unseen"

        You did use the term "Noetic" in your intro ...so I took you up on that.

        Here is an up to-date ...(current)...Noetic mind speaking ....


        Eckhart Tolle

        "The world is an externalization of the HUman mind"
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          Dec 2 2012: Ok, I get it now :) I've only just stumbled upon Noetic science, but the question has always been in my mind, "can we do more". I love the fact that not only is it a yes, but it is now being scientifically proven.
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      Dec 3 2012: "MIND is matter. Matter IS MIND."

      Actually, Ed, the two are too dissimilar to be considered one. If you mean by the statement that we live in a mental universe, then I agree. Our individual and collective minds, and consciousness impact our world for better or for worse, as we're continually creating our experiences here, most unconsciously.

      Mind is eternal; matter is temporal.

      Were matter substantial, it wouldn't decay, and return to dust. That which is real, is that which gave life to the body, as well as to other forms of life, existing outside of the material realm, but giving form to it (a matrix of a sort) without commingling.

      The mind-body dilemma has convulsed and confounded thinkers for centuries, if not millennia. They reasoned: Either all is mind or all is matter, for the two have nothing in common one with the other. From my vantage point, all is Mind, although matter--and the realm of the relative--is a useful, contrived construct for experiencing all that we are.

      We couldn't do that in the realm of the absolute, our true Home, and place of origin.

      The world is a ruse, an illusion, designed perfectly for a divine use, and purpose, which is to know ourselves in our own experiences.

      "The world is an externalization of the HUman mind."

      On this we agree: As with the body, a substrata of the errant, material human mind, and not our spiritually-perfect mind, the world takes form in that crucible of imperfection, and we become subject to its many vagaries.
      • Dec 3 2012: Wilber

        Don't want to get picky here but...

        If you agree with .."The world is an externalization of the HUman mind."

        then it is a matter (not pun intended) which "world" do we wish to consider the Matter we are discussing ..Is it the so called "Material" world ...(the lowest of the vibrations) ? or is it the Psychical?? or is it the Noetical???

        No matter which of the three realms chosen, the "Forms" which Mind holds to be matter can always be recalled from Cosmic Mind ( ancients call it "Akashic records") and since in all 3 Realms they came out of Mind theyremain Mind .

        And now I have to respectfully disagree with you when you say "We couldn't do that in the realm of the absolute, our true Home, and place of origin. " We , as HUmans, are Dual in nature ....we are both HUman nature and we are Divine/Absolute Nature,, and we have the ability to, when reaching that state when our HUman nature evolves to the Highest frequency ( Absolute Nature ) and stay in BOTH or dissolve into At-One-Ment.

        I think that when you said "we don't do that" you were referring to the latter ....But because our young host here is bringing in the "Noetic" aspect of Consciousness I wanted to focus in on it because it eliminates the so-called "mind-body dilemma".

        Be Well Be Present
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          Dec 3 2012: I believe that you're confusing "matter" with substance. Spirit is eternal. Matter is temporal. Were the physical matter of this world truly substantial, and not a misrepresentation of our corresponding material conscience, it would be as spiritual--and therefore as eternal--as Spirit itself.

          Clearly it's not. And in the words of the Bible: the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.

          "We ... are Dual in nature ....we are both HUman nature and we are Divine/Absolute Nature,, and we have the ability to, when reaching that state when our HUman nature evolves to the Highest frequency ( Absolute Nature ) and stay in BOTH or dissolve into At-One-Ment."

          Appearance is not reality: We never leave the absolute. We only think we can and do. Were we able to leave Home, we wouldn't find it upon returning.

          And, too, the appearance of "duality" is itself an illusion. We're never "human" but always divine, for if it were possible to desecend into matter, we'd lose our deific standing, and for that moment, God would find Herself experiencing our limitations in the flesh.

          We're always One with God, and neither can we come nor go,
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          Dec 6 2012: Hi Wilbert,

          You can say we are human and divine. What you call divine I might agree with half of that, except the magic bits and explanations for some of it. Same for spirit.

          I understand what you mean by everything we sense and perceive is subjective to some extent. We are limited by our senses and a brain/mind that is subject to hallucinations, trance, agency assumption, imaginary friends etc.

          But it is a false dichotomy to suggest we can not distinguish reality from fantasy to some practical extent.

          Try walking front of a bus if you want to test practical reality. Its a bit different from a drug trip etc.

          I suggest its not a very robust approach to believe our human senses are limited therefore I can believe anything I want. They are all equal.

          I note you pick and choose from established scriptures that suit your own world view.
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          Dec 7 2012: Ask ten people what spirit is and you get ten different opimions with no actual suppoetimg evidence.

          I suggest spirit is a himan concept of some sort of magical energy or life force with no sound basis to indicate what it is how ot works or even if it is real.
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        Dec 4 2012: Actually, as far as we know mind is a product of the physical brain.
        You damage the brain, you damage the cognitive functions of the brain.
        Do we have consciousness, memory etc all worked out. No. But to inject magic is just an argument from ignorance no matter how intuitively it fits your world view.

        You say we are always one with god, when we also don''t have any compelling evidence for the existence or nature of any such beings. Again, just a human concept.

        It is possible to grasp that our mind is the product of our brains without reverting to mysticism.
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          Dec 4 2012: "How do you distinguish between a dream and reality. Between astral projection and hallucination?"

          In the relative realm, all is dream. Reality is no more real for the saying: it's all illusions. Ultimate reality may be seen--appreciated--the closer we approach "perfect love."

          Very few on this planet, living out the dream we call reality, have experienced ultimate reality--although the potentiality is always there.

          "Why do you think your subjective interpretation is better than others."

          I don't. It's not. "Better than" is a mirage, an illusion. No "way" is superior to another. They all lead to the same place: Home.

          "No life after death or reincarnation as far as we know."

          Define "we."

          If we're to capitulate to science for every belief we entertain--every knowing--and dismiss all anecdotal information, and evidence, as inadmissible, then we are nothing more than automatons, fit only to worship at the shrine of empiricism.

          "Actually, as far as we know mind is a product of the physical brain. You damage the brain, you damage the cognitive functions of the brain."

          If you damage any receiver--whether it be the brain, or a radio, or a television--you compromise the function of that receiver, and in the case of the brain, "cognitive functions."

          Just as radio and television signals don't originate in the radio or the television, so with the mind and consciousness--they exist beyond the brain, requiring the physical means accorded by the brain to manifest itself in the physical realm. Those who have OOBE's know this.

          "But to inject magic is just an argument from ignorance no matter how intuitively it fits your world view."

          What's "magic" got do with it? When it comes to metaphysics, science is out of its league--that's all. For now, we'll have to settle for a Mexican Standoff, since science, for all its supposed superior methods, cannot source mind in brain, nor life in body--and for the same reason it can't identify soul and spirit using physical means--they're all metaphysical.
      • Dec 4 2012: Wilbert !
        "Mind is eternal; matter is temporal. "
        Maybe here is the core... division is temporary.
        Erroneously we think , that ' eternal' means lasting infinitely long ; eternity is where time stops and all distinctions cease to exist.
        The distance between the observer and the observed vanishes. Mind is matter and neither of those IS in usual sense. In our human perception, which is based on time mind/matter IS and they are separate, but it's illusion. Let's put it like this : matter is manifestation of mind, and matter 'allows' mind to manifest itself ; they are not separate they are one.
        Something like this ... :)
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          Dec 5 2012: "matter is manifestation of mind, and matter 'allows' mind to manifest itself ; they are not separate they are one."

          Hi, natasha.

          Appearances suggest that your observation is correct. My experience, on the other hand, suggests otherwise.

          Let me explain: I'm an out-of-body explorer. My experience tells me that we don't have one body but two--we have the physical body that will last for an indeterminate time, but will eventually return to the "dust" from which if came--the material substance of this planet.

          Then we have the non-physical body--the one that is actually used to explore this dimension, as wells as others. This body is made of non-physical stuff--stuff that's impervious to pain, and decay. And too: It has other remarkable qualities.

          From this non-physical body, the physical body is given both life and consciousness, and provides the sensation that we attribute to our material body.

          Consequently, the physical body isn't sentient, and neither is it alive, but is kept alive in a rather remarkable way. Since mind separates from the physical body during these out-of-body excursions, it's not dependent on brain for its manifestation.

          Think of the physical body as a kind of "avatar," a hat tip to James Cameron, and his movie by the same name. Our non-physical self uses the physical body as an avatar so that it might navigate the physical realm, that which it is not, but which provides it with the opportunity to experience itself where one thing is define by another, love by fear, and spirit by matter.
      • Dec 5 2012: Hi, Wilbert !
        Mind is not actually yours, what we call 'my mind' is a filtered limited information that insure our ego survival, it means ' to be' ' I am that ' and thanks God we have it :) But MIND goes through you, the physical body is sentient, is alive is conscious as everything is, because MIND is everywhere, it manifests itself through matter. " there is no dust that has not been alive "
        Don't take me wrong, i am not arguing with you, it's just the way i see it, now :)
        Thanks for responding !
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    Dec 2 2012: "he ability to change our surroundings with thought alone, healing the sick with our energy. Souls, life after death, the ability to tap into untapped mental/spiritual potential."

    Nothing screams 'Im able' like people from a time where everyone believed illness was the result of demons, died of common colds, attributed every freak event to the gods, mass sacrifice, endless wars, literal scapegoating, asinine rituals and a life-length of 30 years.

    The idea that the 'ancients' could accomplish something that we couldn't is evidentially false on the grounds that we've gone out of our way in society to fix issues, issues which existed (which on your argument, wouldn't have existed because the ancients knew how to fix them with such powers and abilities).

    People in olden times make up stories, having the ability to technologically make a fraction of the story possible with 1000+ years of technology is not a sign that they were right.

    ---
    "What do you think of the idea of mind over matter?"
    I think its also nonsense. Theres no reason to believe that anyone (past or present) has ever had such capacities.
    If we were ever able to manage something on this level, it will be through mass scientific and technological manipulation, like being able to fly but using a plane, as far as I can tell.
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      Dec 2 2012: "If we were ever able to manage something on this level, it will be through mass scientific and technological manipulation, like being able to fly but using a plane, as far as I can tell."

      Human flight preceded that of mechanical means. Even today, there are adepts who can travel to faraway places quicker and with greater ease than the swiftest of plane.

      "I think its also nonsense. Theres no reason to believe that anyone (past or present) has ever had such capacities."

      As it is used here, "Mind over matter" is as commonplace today as it was for those ancient metaphysicians. It's not that hard to discover who they are: a little research will bring them to light.

      "The idea that the 'ancients' could accomplish something that we couldn't is evidentially false on the grounds."

      You're partly right: We can "accomplish" what they (the ancients) accomplished. In fact, we do. Many are doing it daily.
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      Dec 2 2012: I think.. that you should open up your mind to new possibilities. What I said about Noetic science is true. Our thought alone effects the outside world. And collective thought, effects it greater. And the ancients new a lot of stuff we don't, or didn't figure out until later. Ancient Egyptions new of light bulbs. Or cathodes. Either way, it created light. The astrology and numerology of the "Ancients" is astounding even today. And people like Pythagoras were coming up with rules for sacred geometry... There is a lot to learn from the "ancients", even if it's not things that have to do with souls n' such.
      http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=egypt+cathode&view=detail&id=03FDC48BDE39E0D852523CFDE72F2EBD717E8222&first=1
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    Dec 4 2012: Chemical processes can generate electrical currents that have magnetic fields.
    No magic in that.

    The awesomeness of the cosmos as our understanding increases is amazing. Not sure if it is demeaning it when making connections to speculative mysticism.
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      Dec 4 2012: "The awesomeness of the cosmos as our understanding increases is amazing."

      If what we learn of the "cosmos" comes as a result our human "understanding," and that alone, we may find ourselves amazed, but that amazement pales alongside the awe that would be derived from a fuller understanding of the cosmos, when we apply our non-physical senses to the process.

      "Not sure if it is demeaning it when making connections to speculative mysticism."

      I say live and let live: I won't denigrate "speculative" science, if you don't "demean" mysticism.
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        Dec 6 2012: Good call. Yes live and let live. Each to their own, as long as it doesn't harm others. But no issue with debate.

        I guess to me the intuitive beliefs and so called religious experiences can be powerful for individuals.

        I just think speculative mysticism is without any sound basis. Your particular view of the universe may be correct. Or someone else's. We can not tell. That is my main point.

        And religious experiences are most likely reducible to physical, chemical and electrical processes, and associated natural cognitive processes. That feeling I get meditating or listening to music, or seeing something inspiring, is probably not so different from the person in church or temple swaying to the music in a light trance, visualising connecting to some imagined deity.

        The feelings are real, but as far as I know we can not tell if they are connecting to Jesus, some other god or goddess, or the different incomprehensible cosmic whatevers people assume exist.

        When faced with thousands of specific deities, and thousands of interpretations of just one, and millions of contradictory mystical beliefs, well I respect peoples right to their life journey, but these type of beliefs are speculative, they are mostly or all wrong, the uncaused cause arguments are flawed, as are the there must be one etc - you can make up whatever makes sense to you.

        So perhaps to you I am missing another dimension based on speculation and inventing or borrowing explanations for everything including our cognitive experiences. To me, there may be more. We don't know. Life the universe is amazing enough for me without letting go of a healthy skepticism.

        These sorts of interactions, that stretch my mind are part of that. Thanks for the discussion Wilbert.
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    Dec 3 2012: "I'm writing a paper on Intel design vs evolution, and its due tomorrow. I'd love to hear all of what you think on the matter!"

    Creationism is usually yoked with the notion of "intelligent design. "We live and move and have our being in [Mind]." Hence, intelligence is not by design, as though it was added as an afterthought, or a forethought, but is the Source of all that is, and is, therefore, an integral part of the design, because it (Mind) is all that is.

    Because time is a human construct and doesn't exist, all that we see was created all at once in the Holy Moment of Now--and from our limited, human perspective, it appeared to have happened over billions of years of what is termed "evolution."

    Therefore, depending on perspective, both the Creationists and the Evolutionist are right: God created everything, not in seven days (which weren't diurnal to begin with), but in the Here and Now, because he couldn't wait.

    Because we humans think of time as a space-time continuum, rather than as a spiral of nowness, we believe that it took billions of years of evolution to bring us to our current point of evolutionary progress.
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    Dec 2 2012: It is my experience that we all use thoughts (thought-constructs that are called beliefs) as we manifest our realities according to our desires. If you know this, you can use your beliefs to your advantage and manifest at will.. If you do not know this, then the invisible foot that is attached to the invisible hand will come at you to kick you in the behind.

    For me, it is not a matter of "mind over matter". For me it is that "Thoughts are things".

    There are MANY who use the power of being to deliberately manifest according to their intended desires. This knowledge is not something that those of us who determine our manifestations want to keep secret. It is something that we want to share with all who would listen.

    If you understand the workings of your power, you cannot and will not use it as a way to control others. This would come back to bite you in a meaningful way! On the other hand, if you do not know the workings of your power, you are easily manipulated by others, and this has its own consequences. When you refuse to control your own power (by giving authority to others), you life becomes what others determine for you. This is not a way to grow a truly satisfying life.
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    Dec 2 2012: I think that is has a lot to do with how we think, and how much "faith" we have. I think that there are people over the course of 3.5 billion years who have experienced these things, and can practice them, good or bad. And i think that our prayer groups and meditation circles and yoga classes are reminiscent of what we already knew awhile ago, and echo a gut feeling that we have, a feeling that it will work.... I think that people want to purposely keep it hidden, because knowledge is power, and with great power comes great responsibility, and if you're not responsibility enough to wield that power, then the power corrupts.
    By personal experience, lol, I have seen prayer save a life. Change lives. I've seen that the faith, is the key. And the intention is the key..... it's complicated.. but in reality it's not, because it's natural..
    So yea. That's what I think :)
    And sorry for your blood clot :/
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      Dec 2 2012: Thank you for your sympathy, I was lucky, nothing remained.

      And thank you for sharing your thoughts on that subject even though I don't have much to return, as on this sort of faith and prayer I have nothing I could agree with you.

      Nevertheless it was interesting to see your answer to the question you rose and I hope for a wide variety of views and comments on it.
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    Dec 2 2012: If a concept such as 'mind over matter' has not clearly indicated itself after 3.5 billion years of evolution and on daily practice of all combined brain capacity ever since, it highly suggest a surplus of its limitations.

    The highest controlable form of a state of mind I am aware of is meditation. Anything beyond the true capacity of a grandmaster in this discipline will consequently be out of reach for the rest of us.

    Precognition and spontaneous recovery may turn less mysterious once it got decoded. Souls and life after death may always stay in the realm of personal preferences.

    By personal experience I found how much a tiny bit of matter in form of a blood clot were way over my mind and there was nothing I could do about it at that very moment. To me, matter scored 1:0.

    What do you think?
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      Dec 2 2012: "Anything beyond the true capacity of a grandmaster in this discipline will consequently be out of reach for the rest of us."

      Today, otherwise simple ("humble or lowly in condition or rank"), and ordinary folk are exercising a great deal of control over many aspects of their life--their body, and daily events--control that many would call miraculous, not understand the methodology, nor the source.

      "Precognition and spontaneous recovery may turn less mysterious once it got decoded."

      If that's the case, and science one day attributes "precognition and spontaneous recovery" to a "less [than] mysterious" source, science will be as clueless as it is now about the nature of reality.

      "Souls and life after death may always stay in the realm of personal preferences."

      Only in the sense that we're free to choose whether the "soul" and a "afterlife" exist, but that's the extent of our prerogative, since what we choose to believe doesn't change, nor can it change, ultimate reality.

      As souls, we have always existed, and will always exist. We may choose not to believe so, but that belief will bear consequentially on our afterlife experience, potentially thrusting us into a state of abeyance for a time--a deep sleep from which we will eventually awake, or be awaken, but it may take a time, no-time for that to occur.

      "I found how much a tiny bit of matter in form of a blood clot were way over my mind and there was nothing I could do about it at that very moment."

      In the physical realm, where we've lived possibly many years believing that we're our body--dressing and feeding it, experiencing both pain and pleasure because of it--the body usually exercises the upperhand, but it's not impossible to make the body tributary to Mind, but it would take uncommon dedication, and a profounder understanding of ultimate reality.

      "What do you think?"

      For now, the physical world--although a convincing illusion--will one day fade away, and all that will be left is who we really are.
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        Dec 2 2012: Unlike you I do not have this profound understanding of this ultimate reality. I don't even know if such thing exists. I do not allow myself to claim to have the insight on existence itself, in fact, I don't even know why I am here. I do not rise beyond the physical universe to return with an all and final answer about its true essence, because I haven't even been on the moon yet, not even close. I do not talk about souls as if I knew what they really are and capable of. Honestly, besides the beauty in imagine them and a wish for them to be true, I have nothing else I could say. I don't know anything about afterlife, because I am still alive and I have no idea what will happen when I die.
        I could not distinguish a convincing illusion of which I was part of from a higher reality to which I have no access to. I do not see science as an ultimate answer to the nature of reality, more as a way for a better understanding of what is surrounding me. So far my mind was neither able to get very far on that way, nor was I able to influence the physical world outside my body by the power of my thoughts. To a certain degree I am able to influence my heartbeat and to generate the feel of warmth or numbness within my body. Yet not even close in intensity what a simple drug could do.


        The intensity in which you presented your views was quite impressive and it reminded me on my incapacity to understand people like you and how they manage to confuse, over and over again, 'knowledge' and 'belief', as if convincing illusions were prohibited in their minds by the mere kiss of an all mighty wisdom.

        Formidable, indeed and painfully envied by simple unkissed minds like mine...

        :o)
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          Dec 2 2012: "I don't even know if such thing exists."

          Actually, not knowing is an illusion. What is required to know is to remember, since you already know all there is to know.

          Say you know, and indeed you do: It's a simple as that, and not as complex as some might think, or some might have you believe.

          "I do not allow myself to claim to have the insight on existence itself, in fact, I don't even know why I am here."

          Why not? Don't hold back. Claim it! And too, we know why we're here but have chosen not to remember.

          The key is to allow yourself to remember. Nevertheless, despite your not remembering, you cannot not be about what you came here to be, and to do. More than anything, we humans desire to experience. We're here to experience--all of it: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

          Some crave experience to such a degree that they're willing to risk life and limb to achieve it. In short, some of us want it so much, we're willing to die for it.

          And if we can't do things directly, we do them vicariously: with books, television, movies, what have you--all for the experience of it.

          Our purpose is not so dissimilar: We're here to recreate ourselves anew, into the grandest version of the greatest vision we've ever held of who we are, and to experience that--and that recreation is either done consciously or unconsciously, as a result of remembering or as a byproduct of life itself.

          You see: We're all about the business for which we came. We can't do otherwise. That's the purpose of life, and that purpose can't be thwarted, or circumvented.

          "I do not talk about souls as if I knew what they really are and capable of."

          To know the "soul" become reacquainted with life. What do you know of life? What do you know of what life is "capable of"? For where life is, there is your soul also. The more you live--really live--the more you entertain your soul. The more you withdraw from life, and fear it, the farther you move from your soul--the "essence" of who you are.
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          Dec 2 2012: "I don't know anything about afterlife, because I am still alive and I have no idea what will happen when I die."

          Sure you do: What we call death is really life, but life in transition, as we change from one form (a physical one) to a non-physical one. In reality we never actually live in a physical body, nor really have one--despite appearances and our seeming experience in the flesh--and that will become clearer, too, when we transition.

          Upon dying, we'll know that we didn't die at all, that nothing has really changed, since we have never really lived within a physical body. That, too, is an illusion. We're not our physical body.

          "I could not distinguish a convincing illusion of which I was part of from a higher reality to which I have no access to."

          Remember this:

          Nothing in my world is real.
          The meaning of everything is the meaning I give it.
          I am who I say I am.
          My experience is what I say it is.

          In sum, we live in an illusion, for the purpose of experiencing "ultimate reality." Ultimate reality is our grandest feeling, what we call Love. We need the illusion to experience it, as well as Love's offshoots--kindness, joy, peace, goodness, generosity, and so forth.

          As such, we have access to all that we need to recreate ourselves, and to do it again and again.

          "I do not see science as an ultimate answer to the nature of reality, more as a way for a better understanding of what is surrounding me."

          True, science has if limits, and its limitations. Its scientific method and empirical approach doesn't lend itself to an examination of "reality," since what is truly real, can't be seen, or appreciated with the human eye, or scientific apparatuses, which are focused on effect rather than cause, or the source of all that is.

          "Formidable, indeed and painfully envied by simple unkissed minds like mine..."

          "All that I have is yours." You have no limitations.
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        Dec 3 2012: Our understanding of 'knowledge' and 'illusion' is different.

        In your claim of 'knowledge' I see 'illusion' whereas my 'ignorance' is a lack of 'remembrance' for you.

        The essence of what you wrote is to me one of the highest form of self-deception and nothing you say would ever change my mind about it.

        By saying this I do not grade what you belief, as to me one of the most precious gifts we can make ourselfs is to construct our world in a way which pleases us. And you seem to have made this gift to yourself. Wonderful! It is truly yours, be happy with it, but don't try to hand it over to me, as I am going to willfully break it.

        Disaster has always started when people claim to have found 'the' truth, may it been discovered, remembered, created - whatever - and could not endure to remain silent about it.

        I am not going to buy your missionary attempt and you can put me on your list of 'lost souls', as this is fine with me. Well, I think this is all what I have to say to this and I will happily stay the unkissed mind to marvel the world in a way that suits me.

        Cheers!
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          Dec 4 2012: "The essence of what you wrote is to me one of the highest form of self-deception and nothing you say would ever change my mind about it."

          You're free to call it what you like. In that I have no preference, as my comments were never meant to persuade but to offer you the opportunity to remember.

          If you choose not to remember, so be it. It's just not your time. But the opportunity will continue to arise until you do, however.

          "And you seem to have made this gift to yourself. Wonderful! It is truly yours, be happy with it, but don't try to hand it over to me, as I am going to willfully break it."

          You miss the purpose of my dialogue, which was more to share a viewpoint than to persuade.

          I detect hostility. Not to worry: I have no need to rescue, co-opt, redeem, save, or proselytize anyone, either by force, cajoling, or persuasion.

          And too: I have no need to carry this conversation farther.

          Blessed be!
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        Dec 4 2012: I apologize if my words came hostile to you, as this was not my intention.

        Fare well!