- Yohann Cauwenbergh
- Leuven
- Belgium
Student, Business Engineering, Catholic University of Leuven, Belgium
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What do you think of merit-based pay for teachers?
I don't know if the question is still relevant, I haven't followed it until recently but I heard it was quiet a debate at the Presidential election and wanted to know what he TED community thought of this.
Is merit-based pay for teachers a good idea... There are a lot of pros and cons about the topic: Will it help the education of the students (the main goal of the would-be arrangement)? Will the amount of teachers have a positive boost? Will it make the teachers too competitive, lessening the cooperation between them?
Please write your ideas.
(English is not my first language so excuse the grammatical errors and easy language)
Ernest Lane
Michael Shane
Bill Matthies
Why shouldn't there be performance reviews tied to their "product", which is educated students? I know they don't control the flow of resources necessary to do their jobs but what group of workers does?
Fritzie Reisner 100+
The question here is, rather, whether their pay should be based on a formula that adds pay in relation to how much specifically a student grew in their subjects that year. Should a teacher whose students achieved 14 months of growth in the year be paid more than someone whose students made a year's worth of growth in the year, however those are measured?
That, not performance reviews, is the question.
Bill Matthies
"Of course there are annual performance reviews for teachers! No one questions the desirability of that!"
That isn't the situation here in the US and I am remiss in not making clear that is what I was referring to. I assumed Yohann's question had to do with the US given his reference to the presidential election, but maybe not ("I don't know if the question is still relevant, I haven't followed it until recently but I heard it was quiet a debate at the Presidential election and wanted to know what he TED community thought of this.")
There are (US) teachers who favor pay tied to performance but there are far more who don't, not at least reviews tied to grades or student "growth" as you called it. Yohann was correct in saying that was a big debate in the US and not just during to the recent presidential election. It is ongoing with teaches largely united and politically very active through their teacher unions. However given the dismal and getting worse results coming from our schools there is a growing sense that something has to change.
I am in favor of advancement and pay tied to student academic achievement but will leave the details of how best to do that to those who better understand the issues than I do.
Bill
Fritzie Reisner 100+
I know 50% of states require teacher evaluations that are based in part on measures of student growth.
Where are you thinking has no teacher performance evaluations?
pat gilbert 50+
Eric Witkowski
Keep in mind that money doesn't buy happiness, don't take it from me, take it from this (brief!) article - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2019628,00.html - $75000 is the average amount of household income before "happiness" tapers off from income.
My father worked as a clinical psychologist for 19 years, before making the transition to his current position. Despite the long hours and low pay, he found his work to be extremely SATISFYING and FULFILLING and often told me that when your job doesn't feel like a job, it's easy to go to "work" everyday.
So with all of that in mind, along with my previous post, Im sure there's a place for merit based systems for teachers.. Im sure you can do that for a variety of industries.. but it's a fallacy to believe that providing monetary rewards for higher student grades, attendance, or good-behavior would only cure the bad and keep the good. Providing monetary rewards causes the receiver of those benefits to look only at short term goals as a means to an end and clouds the judgment of the individual. I am NOT supposing that these individuals are "bad" people, it's that our brains react differently from a neurological perspective when rewarded with these types of systems. As such, back to my original post, there are other pitfalls that can occur based on merit based systems.
More Info:
- http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100603/0311539672.shtml
- http://www.go2cio.com/articles/index.php?id=3579
Fritzie Reisner 100+
One of our TED speakers, a Law and Economics prof at Harvard named Yochai Benkler, has a paper that comes immediately to mind in which he puts forward an analytical model that captures this from the standpoint of the activities we choose to pursue. The paper is called Coase's Penguin, because it is based on seminal work by a well known economist named Coase. The paper is kind of a slog unless you enjoy reading economics, but if you do, it is interesting. He develops his models particularly out of an interest in understanding where volunteerism fits into to economic thinking.
pat gilbert 50+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
money DO buy happiness, or at least many things we need, and we all know that. it needs some sort of global trance to deny that obvious fact. can we say that better health services does not grant happiness? or ability to work less? better school for our children? more comfortable housing? internet connectivity? these things all cost money. or we conclude that those listed things are not important? we should not aspire for better health services, better food, better accommodation and all? thanks, but no thanks. everyone is free to follow any set of values. my values contain these things. and i don't care how many studies someone puts forward, i don't want anyone to tell me what to value and what to want.
Darin Harris
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Frederik Dutoit
Besides, in Belgium the parents pick schools, not a collection of individual teachers.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
how do we know that the harvard is a good university? because we check the curriculum, and assess the professors ourselves? nope. we just trust the reputation of the school that is constantly reinforced by many studies, opinions and results.
why can't we use the same method to choose schools? and a school board is pretty much capable to decide whether a candidate fits their standards or not.
Frederik Dutoit
There are just too many variables in the equation, and way too many are subject to bias. It's just too easy to forget to check just 1 thing, that one thing you forgot has the potential to seriously diminish your chances of making a correct choice.
And higher pay does not mean higher quality. Not in this world.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
Selecting teachers themselves is a different story. Again, word travels as to which are the best teachers, but practical class size limits as well as the need to schedule students into six or seven classes to cover all the subjects makes the actual parent selection of teachers in all subjects impossible.
Schools are also not expandable indefinitely and the best schools tend to have waiting lists in places with school choice.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Frederik Dutoit
Sorry but 'reputation' is based on a mix of a lot flawed opinions to me.
I encourage a system in which any choice is a good choice and only some are perfect/less good.
I know that IS attainable.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Frederik Dutoit
Finland has an educational system that works as described.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Frederik Dutoit
The resistance to change will make people want to cut corners, remember, the goal is more pay, not more quality.
Even more so when you're in a tight shoe.
Teachers need to learn ways to make their courses fun/interesting/challenging. In time, that will make teacher a more attractive career choice.
It is a slow process but once it gains momentum it will fuel itself.
Frederik
David McMillon
Robert Winner 50+
Each teacher bargins for their contract pay. If you are not happy ... walk. Each district writes their own evaluation guides. The union has said that a principal or superintendent must make a appointment to visit the classroom or must make a appointment to schedual a evaluation day. That is stupid. Teachers should be visited on no notice and frequently. Only by a number of visits and other factors can the teacher be fairly evaluated. I cannot make a fair assessment on one hour a year of observation.
Then the question of what is "merit". We had a "bad" teacher that was given incentives to stay with the school including the teacher of the year that schocked the community and was the topic of many board meetings. It was stated that we have problems getting special ed teachers into our small community so we "needed" her. That was the "merit".
Perhaps the answer is what is used by government and industry. A pay scale that states the amount and the conditions for that rate. i.e. Bachlors X points, Masters X points, years service X points, evaluation, etc .. points equate to a rate. This would be using the same rubric for everyone. Merit is a relative term and non specific. Big schools big budget ... small schools small budget. This may level the playing field.
Merit is not the answer. Bob.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
merit is what freely interacting individuals praise, and are willing to pay for.
pat gilbert 50+
Robert Winner 50+
So there is some more stupid thoughts that you can pass insult on.
Bob.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
David McMillon
Robert Winner 50+
Thanks.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Fritzie Reisner 100+
The evaluation practices differ as well. In the district where I worked in a k12 classroom and on an administrative level, a principal or an assistant principal had to schedule AT LEAST one observation per year, but school and district administrators could and did walk into any classroom at ANY time. There were also days parents could come in in groups, with teachers able to opt out only if students were taking a test or something.
Individual parents needed to make an appointment with the teacher to come at another time.
I have had six or eight building principals walk into my classroom at once and watch for awhile and as many as twenty-five parents at a time while I am teaching.
The teacher was not expected to engage with the adults who visited, but as a courtesy, many of us might say a few words to give context.
When I taught young kids in university programs, not only could administrators walk in but teachers and families were asked to sign releases so administrators could take photos while they were there.
Robert Winner 50+
As you say there is no set standard throughout. Is that a problem or a blessing?
Fritzie Reisner 100+
Bob Stiglitz
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Erin Hay
Krisztián Pintér 200+
John Smith 30+
@Fritzie below
Sure, that's not how it works in the US (which isn't the only country in the world: in much of Europe all teachers in the same country with the same longevity get paid the same, there are no "districts"), but that's not the point, the point is that it might be more cost-effective to not factor in some measure of merit.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
As an example, a high school teacher with a doctorate in physics who has taught secondary school for two years might be paid less than half of what a first grade teacher is paid with twenty years experience.
Pay is negotiated between the district and the labor union subject to a fixed amount of money allocated by the state for salaries.
I am not a specialist in school finance, but I believe this is typically how it works.
Beyond this, it is, perhaps, like the way nurses are paid. Historically they have been expected to do their best for each person in their care, while operating within the rules and with the materials that are authorized for their use. Just as nurses are not paid on the basis of the health of the patient, teachers have not traditionally been paid based on how successful the students are on standardized tests, though that is commonly part of the teacher's evaluation.
pat gilbert 50+
John Smith 30+
pat gilbert 50+
You first have to consider that public schools are subsidized by the government by the time the money is skimmed by multiple layers of beauracy a much smaller percentage makes its way to the school.
There was a video today on how traffic jams can be and are fixed by keeping the decision process of how to route traffic from the bottom up this makes a big difference. Point is that by keeping the decisions at the local level there would be increased efficiencies as the person who knows best how to use the resources are at the local level
http://www.ted.com/talks/jonas_eliasson_how_to_solve_traffic_jams.html
So this money would remain at the local level.
If you privatize the whole education system the better schools are going to have better teachers. But the higher quality private schools would raise the tide for all schools. By pushing competition into the school system the entire system would improve. The good teachers would make more money and the level of all the education would be raised.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
also known as "merit"
John Smith 30+
Everyone knows convenience (location for example), marketing hype and prestige factor into any pricing system just as much as quality, well almost everyone.
Allan Macdougall 30+
No. That is purely a materialistic measure that has no basis whatsoever in a measure of quality.
pat gilbert 50+
Only an thoroughly indoctrinated socialist could say that.
Please view the countries view over time
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/unitedkingdom
Yann Burrett
The problem I have with the free market approach is that I don't see how it benefits those customers at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. Without the means to pay for a first-rate education, one must rely on inferior instruction, or possibly no education at all. Or if we decide that everyone must have an education and offer loans, we increase the amount of debt a student must acquire.
Even if we look at Charter Schools in the US (private schools working with their own charter within the public school system), the quality of the education is not guaranteed to be better than in a comparable public school. Overall, Charter School students test at a slightly lower rate than public school students (with some exceptions). Of course, Charter Schools are a hybrid model, so I realize it's not really free-market
Merit based pay is something I'd be in favor of as a teacher. But not only is "merit" problematic, so is the concept of assessment. Our current models of assessment tell us who is good at passing exams in bizarre and artificial circumstances and tell us nothing of what the student actually knows or understands. Come to that, we should probably come up with an agreed upon definition of intelligence.
To me, the problem is that we don't really know what we're educating people for. Public Education was founded in the US to create a citizenry who were educated enough to take part in democracy. then it was to instill a sense of citizenry, then to create educated workers, later business people, now to create college-ready students (that is, we are educating people to be able to be educated later). It may be time to rethink what education is for before we can discuss the merits of a teacher.
pat gilbert 50+
Which is why I think the metric that will be the most closely scrutinized is known as the market price or economic equilibrium.
We have the opposite of this in Calif where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the country and the test scores are some of the lowest in the country. Even if they just taught to the test it would be an improvement. I guess you cannot legislate children into knowledge?
Yann Burrett
I would also argue that you can legislate children into knowledge, as demonstrated by the fact that a vast majority of the public can now read. How much knowledge and should that knowledge be counted as understanding or subject mastery is up for debate.
Of course, I have strong biases. I'm not much of a free-market-is-the-answer kind of guy. I tend to believe that some things (health, education, public safety and so on) are more important that the whims of market forces. I DO think that teachers getting rewarded for excellent teaching is a decent idea, and I do feel that while the teaching unions in the US were founded for excellent reasons (to combat things like teachers being fired a week before they retired to stop them claiming their pension), they have become hugely problematic for all concerned. But an all out market force solution doesn't convince me.
But without a clear idea of what it is we want the schools to actually DO, I think any concept of merit based teaching is doomed.
pat gilbert 50+
To put these preconceived notions in perspective please watch this video:
http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_education.html
Yann Burrett
I didn't make any arguments because I suspect the majority of the conversation would be ideological. And while that can certainly be informative and interesting, it's not likely to convince anyone to change their minds. For example - a lot of my reservations are based on a concept of "complete free market" as morally suspect, which is a position I realize not everyone agrees with. Some people believe that education is not a human right (it's not in the US constitution for example), and still others believe that you only need to educate the elite of a society (a view I find bizarre, but one that was presented to me in all seriousness during a graduate class.)
But you're right - there should be an argument to back up this gut feeling. The most cogent argument I could make in the space allowed might be to compare public education to public health. I grew up in the UK, moving to the US at age 31. If I examine the US healthcare system (which is currently about as close to fully privatized as I can imagine without removing the need to provide any healthcare at all to people without money), the statistics simply do not point to a free market leading to better service. The US has a pretty poor track record compared to other Westernized nations, and pays around double what the next country pays. I don't really see why we should expect fully privatized education to go the same way.
I do however understand that not everyone feels that comparing US healthcare (or indeed education) to other countries works well, because there are a number of unique factors present or absent in the US that make such direct translation necessary.
Almost every teacher I've ever met is left-leaning politically, which leads me to suspect that most teachers would have problems with full privatization. I don't expect to convince anyone who doesn't agree with me, so the best I can offer is the promise to treat the free-market view with respect.
pat gilbert 50+
Additionally it is set up so the customer is not aware of prices and do not care what they are.
Is it any wonder that the students graduate with a liberal bent?
Here is a fun fact for the first 150 years the government did not interfere in economic matters at all. Thinking swiftly and using the scientific matter how about we go back to what worked before?
Before you say how terrible it was without the government realize that the U.S. has raised the standard of living of the world more than any other country in history and government had nothing to do with it quite the opposite. The history of the world is chalk full of exploiting people through the monopoly of government. The U.S. is the anomaly that has brought people up a notch by limiting government.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
pat gilbert 50+
Please don't go off on a tangent while I'm trying to conduct a class. (8^(l)
I'm surprised they rated Calif that high?
Yann Burrett
I absolutely agree that Healthcare in the US is not really private. But it's about as privatized as I can imagine without removing the need to ensure everyone has access to at least basic emergency needs. But yes, it's a hybrid model that doesn't fit either of our models well.
It is, however, the most privatized system I can think of in that there is no equivalent of the National Health Service. (I'd point out that the UK also has private health insurance companies - though I'm bringing it up mostly because most people seem to see privatization as an either/or solution.) Public healthcare - to continue the tangent - is not a case of government monopoly exploiting the people. It is providing the services for those who cannot afford them.
And so it is with education - I wish public schools could offer the same quality of education as the very best private schools, but at least private schools' existence allows those with the means to educate their offspring while freeing up resources for those who cannot.
If we want to use the scientific method and return to the time when the government did not interfere with economic matters, first we'd need tome hard data that showed that as the unequivocal reason why life got so much better afterwards. That's a tall order. We would also have to explain why Canada currently has a higher standard of living than the US (well, last I checked - admittedly i'm citing a statistic that's almost a decade old)..
We appear to be using very different models of thinking when we examine the world around us. I highly doubt that I'll convince you of the overall benefits of nationalization of public services any more than I don't expect you to be able to convince me of the benign power of the invisible hand. And now I am out of space.
pat gilbert 50+
Canada has less government:
http://www.heritage.org/index/
Have a nice day
Yann Burrett
So when we see a correlation between smaller government interference in the economic decisions of a country and anything else, we cannot simply state that it must be true that one caused the other without data to demonstrate WHY it did. To do otherwise is to commit the fallacy of causal correlation.
I do thank you for the updated statistic - I'll look into it deeper when I have more time. Either way, until we can agree on the causal connection between "small government" and "better education", it's not really going to convince me.
pat gilbert 50+
I think the best way to divine the truth out of these debates is something we of the enlightened persuasion like to call: do it work or don't it. So even without the benefit of an academics infinite ability to filter we can use what works. E.G. The case of Samual Pierpoint Langley verses the Wright brothers.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
Our top priority was building based hiring in which the principal with the advice of a building team could hire the best teachers he/she could get for openings in the building. This was to replace the former system (which may still be commonplace in this country) in which openings were filled, rather, by letting teachers choose jobs on the basis of seniority. In the old system, the building had to take the most senior person who wanted the job!
When we got our unions to accept this, it was considered a breakthrough contract for a district to achieve with a union. Buildingbased hiring replaced the seniority system.
The second thing we wanted was a merit pay plan. We put forward a metric in which a portion of teacher pay would be connected to the students' growth during the year. The key feature, though, was that we would look at merit in terms of the growth one would expect based on data for comparable students to those the teacher was teaching rather than students in the district at large. Some groups of students are much more challenging to teach than others, and the expected growth would be different.
Our idea was to compare across the district how much growth a teacher achieved relative to classes in the district with similar students and to reward the top x%. I cannot remember whether it was 10% or what.
We didn't get this for a couple of reasons I remember. One was that the union leaders felt they could not be sure that whatever metric we agreed to wouldn't be manipulated later so as not take into account the differential challenges in teaching different groups of students. The other issue was that teachers felt they were constrained from doing their best by district curriculum and instructional mandates.
pat gilbert 50+
This metric stuff is very tricky, I have beat over the head with stuff more than I care to admit, fortunately I have developed calluses.
I love the building based hiring idea.
The metric idea sound workable but in my experience people always figure out a way to game the system. But anything is better than the union and it's rules.
3 points on this subject.
Individuals flourish in small groups as with your building team.
Bottom up trumps top down always, but that does not mean you don't need a top it just has to stay the hell out of the way of the bottom. There is a management philosophy called Lean manufacturing which stems from Toyota that has been successful in implementing bottom up in government and the unions. It is so successful that it is dare I say exciting.
The only metric system I have seen work is 2 individual voluntarily exchanging with each other. Not to mention that exchange is the genesis of innovation.
Yann Burrett
Unless you can demonstrate WHY something works and HOW something works, "do it work or don't it" is indistinguishable from magical thinking. Yes, correlation does not rule out causation. I never argued that it did. I argued that if you want to make a point like that, correlation isn't enough. Until we agree that life WAS better FOR those reasons, it's not a solution we agree on. It's what we of the rational persuasion call "thinking".
Anyway, this is getting out of hand fast. The truth is, I do respect your point of view. I don't find it persuasive, but I admit that the reasons I don't find myself persuaded aren't reasons you share. It is, however, not universally recognized that complete privatization of education (or any social system) is to anyone's net benefit. That's not to say that that point of view is false. It's that it's not going to convince everyone, certainly not in the way you're presenting it.
And with that, I need to bow out. Long evening ahead of me.
pat gilbert 50+
Have a nice day.
peter lindsay 30+
Eric Witkowski
Krisztián Pintér 200+
recommending a book is a win. either the opponent will reject reading it for being too taxing, in this case you can claim victory. or he starts reading, then probably follow up on the references, research opposing arguments, etc, which takes from weeks to years. in this case the opponent disappears, so you win.
instead, you might present the findings here.
i know many "experiments" in which experimenters tried to test whether monetary gain is a good motivator. the very idea of testing seems strange in the light of the fact that we tested it for centuries and the results are marvelous. compare the life of anyone today to anyone 200 years back, and see the difference for yourself. so i see completely relevant how many evidence is stacked up on the other side, as long as it is less then a million. not to mention basic logic and introspection. everyone considers the payment when taking a new job. everyone moves to areas with higher average salary. people give the reason of higher salaries when choosing universities, etc. so come on!
Erin Hay
Fritzie Reisner 100+
The five year old came home upset that he wasn't "smart enough to answer the questions."
While districts are required to give these tests in order to qualify for federal grants, families are permitted to opt out. This will be my neighbor's kid's last test.
Erin Hay
Fritzie Reisner 100+
Manuel T. Ortega
On the face of it, merit based pay, performance bonus’, have a feel good aura.
However, teachers do not go into their profession for the money.
If we listen to teachers, we would discover teachers, by in large, desire substantially better support.
Better tools.
Better infrastructure.
A society that values and promotes education.
A society the values and promotes teachers.
While most teachers would welcome better pay, given a choice they would prefer better support.
Merit 'payout' is based on a false premise - teachers have control over their students.
They do not.
You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.
Lets look more deeply.
Socio-economics play a pivotal role.
Individual passion, desire, ambition, familial circumstance, biology and more impact minute to minute attitudes of students.
All of which teachers have no control.
Teachers cannot “fire” students.
Teachers cannot “incent” students.
Teachers can inspire. Motivate. Support.
All of which have little to do with money.
Much of which can be favorably impacted with professional tools and infrastructure.
Educators reward, bonus, if you will, has allot to do with helping fellow human beings be all they can be.
Little to do with money as a reward.
The day our society eradicates child poverty, hunger.
The day our society provides children preventive, on-going healthcare.
The day our society recognizes no one asks to be born.
The day our society recognizes children are victims or beneficiaries of circumstances not of their making.
The day our society recognizes we are all in this together.
Will be the first day of a new beginning.
A beginning built on the foundation of our collective past, not anchored to it.
A beginning constructing its’ future applying all we’ve learned.
A beginning recognizing knowledge, institutions, human beings evolve.
A beginning with no finish line.
A beginning with no end.
A future of perpetual beginnings.
peter lindsay 30+
Caroline Auckland-Thompson
Merit pay for teachers is moot. Our education system needs to change and become part of the "real world". Society needs to play a greater role in educating our children and assume some responsibility for their success. The education system as it stands was designed to produce factory workers after the WWII. Factories, manufacturing and resource development were the mainstay of our economies (I'm Canadian). It was possible to finish grade 8 and get a job. This is no longer the case, especially with educational inflation. Childhood, a time of no responsibilities, is lasting longer 25+.
We need to look at the cost of our education systems now and the price of the failures because what I am proposing will cost money but in a different way. Schools should work with children age 6 to 14 and teach them the basics. There are excellent social studies and science units that need to be continued and the arts should definitely be supported. We know too much about brain based learning to not include the arts. As much as possible, learning should be experiential as supported by volumes of brain research.
At age 14 the child's education should be in the real world for 3 years of volunteering. This work should cross socioeconomic boundaries and also allow for some personal choice in careers of the child's choosing. Society should keep the children "in school" meaning "at work". We need a village to raise our children.
At age 17 the children should return to public education. I imagine they will do so with a new perspective on life. Curriculums need to be scrutinized carefully. How much time needs to spend story writing. Which students need to learn calculus, algebra, physics. Subjects should be more preparatory for life in general and the next stage of their learning. More learning needs to happen in situ.
There are huge flaws and gaps in what I have suggested but I only have 53 characters left. Education needs to adapt.
edward long 100+
John Smith 30+
John Smith 30+
The idea sounds nice, but how do you measure a teacher's "merit" reliably? I mean how do you ensure you're not rewarding teachers for choosing to work at a school in a good neighborhood, or for teaching the students towards the test score exams and nothing else? I'm amazed how so many of the usually anti-government type are screaming for a government bureaucracy here instead of letting the principals decide which teachers should be fired.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
In one district with which I have experience, principals have the complete right to determine what people teach, with the only restrictions being the number of different courses a teacher can be assigned simultaneously and the fact that a teacher needs to have credentials to teach the subject. So let's say a principal doesn't like a teacher for some reason- performance, not being happy to attend meetings, "talking back"... He can assign the teacher to teach three different courses that are extremely challenging to teach because the students tend to come to the courses poorly prepared or are not intrinsically motivated or present disciplinary problems.
(I give this only as an example, as many teachers prefer such sections. Most don't, because they entered the profession to work with students on content rather than to manage behavior).
There are other strategies principals can often use as well, but one reason, perhaps, that you are not seeing the suggestion of firing teachers who do not put forward effective effort is that it is seldom an option in the US, given the governing labor contracts.
Of course one can always fire teachers for criminal behaviors.
Tyler Sasabuchi
Fritzie Reisner 100+
pat gilbert 50+
Tyler Sasabuchi
pat gilbert 50+
One is more of a question, what is the metric for a teacher.
The second is a matter of ethics or rules for schools. This too has 2 sides. For sure these days it has swung way to far toward being PC and the rules are from the top down. I think the main problem is with students who are 15 and up. At this age if they are not going to go to college let them work. As to the kids who just want to create trouble there are programs for them which basically boil down to making them confront the realities of life through techniques that work. If the kids are not that bad then the catholic schools have a handle on creating a culture that embraces learning.
Tyler Sasabuchi
pat gilbert 50+
Tyler Sasabuchi
pat gilbert 50+
Some kids are more trouble and have to be sent away. But there are programs that will get them straightened out for drug problems, etc. Friends of mine have sent their kids to them, they consist of being sent out into the wilderness and being put into survival mode to where they have to knock off the BS in order to survive. In effect it makes them face life as basically they are not facing life.
And as I said before some kids just need to go to work. Some kids need hands on work.
Tyler Sasabuchi
Robert Winner 50+
All the best. Bob.
Tyler Sasabuchi
Hope that helps
Robert Winner 50+
I agree that nothing is set and there are certainly avenues to explore but a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
Thanks for the reply. Bob.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
And here is a briefing paper with some additional links: http://oemanagement.com/data/_files/MeritPay.pdf
Unfortunately, statements one hears about teachers' motivations and pay are often incorrect or misleading, so I would always verify by looking at a number of sources, doubting particularly arguments made by those who have an obvious bias in the matter.
Biases may be related to professional interests, political philosophy, or even personal bad experiences in the classroom in a person's youth.
I agree with those who say that the metric you use will make a difference on the effect you get. One challenge with merit pay is that even before tossing in such a compensation schedule, the most qualified teachers tend to go to schools with students who are easiest to bring to high standards of educational achievement. Schools with students who come to school with a lot of challenges that making learning difficult have a hard time drawing- but more than that retaining- strong teachers.
Metrics that compensate teachers based on how well their students perform on measures of achievement would make this problem even more serious.
pat gilbert 50+
Would teachers be included in those with an obvious bias?
Fritzie Reisner 100+
pat gilbert 50+
Gail . 50+
Unionized public-sector jobs for those who teach a group who are required by law to be there seems to me to be the epitome of corruption.
But it's not that simple. As US economic mobility spirals downward (compared to the rest of the western world), more and more are questioning the value of education. I blame this on our educational paradigms, not on our teachers who were victimized by the educational paradigm themselves. Black youth coming out of our inner cities know with certainty that the system is stacked against them. Education has lost its relevancy.
First, we must restore relevancy to education, and we can't do that for as long as education exists to serve the military industrial complex and its financiers.
george lockwood 20+
Robert Winner 50+
1) Teachers average pay is 44K for approximately 800 hours of work and that is about 55 per hour. The average for the hourly wage earner is 44,657.61 for 2080 hours which is about 22 per hour. (both off of the web) So I work almost three time longer to earn the same amount and then have to sit and listen to them bitch about it. However unions are not happy with this .. can't figure out what would make them happy if this imbalance doesn't. So I suggest that if you are not happy with the contract ... don't sign it. If you do ... man up.
2) If a teacher is not living up to the contract do not renew their services for the next year. If it involves a morals clause fire them. You signed a contract that says you will teach the kids to a certain standard ... do it.
3) In Arizona teachers evaluations have been tied to students grades. This leads to many things none of them good. High stakes testing ... teaching the test ..... and grade designing so as to ensure a passing grade will be achieved. The key to teacher tenure and raises is now in the hands of a 12 year old.
I have a real problem with this as there are kids who should be held back. By tying the teachers career to the kids grades we have stopped meaningful assessments, encouraged possiable cheating, and advancement without merit. There is another problem that is debatable .... how will this impact administrators. They are also tied to the students successes and failures ... plus the additional pressure of attempting to maintain a full staff.
All in all it would be easier to just root out the rotten teachers that are dragging the system down. Unfortunately it is easier said than done. Next pass the deserving .... that takes the big load off of the next teacher ... we hire the superintendents and principals to do a job, get out of their way and let them earn their money ... they fail .. fire them.
I know ... I'm a softy. Bob.
pat gilbert 50+
But the devil is in determining the metric. The down fall of every organization since the beginning of time is in quality control. Since this area has to be scrutinized in other words not glossed over the best person for quality control is the customer as they are the best judge of what is best for them. Consequently schools that are held accountable to the customer are what should be endorsed.
Educators generally do not understand the free market.
John Frum 30+
Parents usually use two methods to figure out to which tutor to send their kids: 1. how well students do in competitive exams 2. feedback from friends of their kids about each tutor.
pat gilbert 50+
I would think that the parents are going to put more value in the recommendations.
John Frum 30+
My Indian, Pakistani, and Iranian friends tell me that there are just a handful of excellent institutions in their countries, but the competition for those is intense. Those that want to do better go to one of the developed countries after their bachelors'.
In my own field, when I look at research papers, I see quite a few people from these countries contributing with excellent, original research, but it is almost never through institutes of their country of origin.
pat gilbert 50+