Mitch SMith


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The case for cloud-seeding

It is quite evident that most states in the world now conduct cloud seeding.

Cloud seeding is not all that new, in my youth it was common in the apple growing districts to shoot skyrockets above possible hail formations to disrupt the coalsecence of hail stones and reduce their impact on the crops. I believe the active chemical used was silver nitrate.

The more common chemical seen in modern cloud seeding is silver iodide. This nucleates rain drops which then gather electrostatically into cloud.

You will recognise them for their whispy-feathery appearance, which may or may not form into rain clouds - depending on the ambient humidity.

The presence of cloud seeding was first noticed by conspiracy theorists as "chemtrails", agianst which no official refutation was poffered - because no public agreement was sought for the practice.

I can think of some good reasons for cloud seeding - wildfire mittigation, cachement optimisation (water-supply dams) or even mittigation of global warming.

We don't know the justifications because we were not consulted. And the debate was never undertaken.

Let's have the debate now.

To kick it off, i will opose the practice and state as my opening arguement that: cloud seeding is vandalism of the sky.

Please state and argue your case:

For and against.

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    Dec 13 2012: Thank you so much for hearing me Mitch. To try and evidence that I get what you are saying: 'Shakespeare said all the world is a stage and we are merely players'. Re. agrarian society 4 roles propose fifth role of eagle, soaring above and keenly observant. Your actual questions a. how come more people don't realise who is pulling their strings and b. if aware what is stopping them fighting back. Sun as old man ra, pennywhistle for communicating emotions better than words as words social constructions. Didgeridoo just a sized-up pennywhistle but the breath control needed can induce a trance like state through hypoxia. Awareness of situation like a bucket of ice-water isn't it. Something happened re C13th, not sure what but many people becoming aware in many parts of the world. Personally reflecting on end of Ancient Eygptians noticed it was a cascade of interconnecting events. Hence always fret about pollinating birds and insects and maintaining sufficient numbers of same and sufficient plants. Situation re Europe already feels too late, 4 new supereconomies here (BRIC) Brazil Russia India China. Australasia still not really considered but as you know Australian outback being mined for minerals etc necessary for microcomponents. Today is a bonus day for me in so many ways Mitch, please direct me to where I can read your work in further detail. National weather forecast showing minus 24 in Scotland in last few days. Seer's predictions were that us children who have ended up on the 'islands far away' will return and reclaim Scotland. There is none so deaf as those who think they are right, unfortunately. Now what are you saying about Mars? What are your thoughts about the four names we are supposed to remember - names just personification of 4 states, now know AGCT from genetic coda. Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine and Thiamine. Fibonacci kept coming to mind for me but Maths not my language. 4 roles agrarian but Star Trek team of 5. Yr ? = ?captain !
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      Dec 14 2012: Farmers shoot Eagles.
      Agriculture relies on closed systems - anything outside the fence is regarded as a wolf.
      This attitude is the cause of the destruction of our environment - I am very certain about the role formula of agriculture - it was a significant wrong-turn in our history and seems to correlate with teh Younger Dryad ice-age.
      The only place for eagles is away from farms - there is nothing there for them.
      C13th was the short warming period in the norhern hemisphere, crops grew better, competition relaxed a bit and there was a little more time for leisure until population growth consumed the excess.
      A didgeridoo does not cause hypoxea if played properly .. it's a drone the same as found in all the different types of bagpipe - one needs a drone to play pure harmony. Modern orchestras do not play pure harmony - they play tempered brute-force scales which ignore harmony. The didgeridoo is a cultural part of the corroboree - a holistic community expression where the drone sets reference for common expression. A form of ritual magic. What westerners call music these days is not music - it is commerce - and uses the entertainment-adiction vector. It's all drugs.
      The canals of mars were. most likely, created by plasma discharges - really-big-lightning. You can see that very few of them drain like a river system does.
      Have a look at these guys:
      They are nuts, but they have some empirical observations to offer.
      We have now learned from Voyager that the solar system is plasma-connected with the galaxy. We already know that the Earth is plasma-connected with the Sun and other solar system objects(magnetic footprint). This creates a universal webwork of filaments which can transmit enormous amounts of energy at unpredictable times.
      Words are pre-packaged perceptions - they are things of the autobiographical self. They short-circuit the senses and must be treated with caution.
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        Dec 15 2012: Mitch - you and I are both eagles. You are right about words but I have never been able to communicate with numbers and only got a very basic education about how computers actually talk to each other, just that it was a binary code of positive/negative (as in punch cards) and then in 0 and 1 in digital. I find it truly alarming that in the space of a generation young people cannot communicate complex sentence structures due to txt spk. I compare the human voice to the drone, as you are no doubt aware 'call and answer' is the basis of many folk tunes. Often the harmonic melody of the tin whistle is what makes the drone of the voices even richer and where even words cannot convey powerful messages like loss and longing and happiness at least the tin whistle is available. So back to eagles, yes in closed systems eagles are made into objects to be destroyed on site (sight too) as are many of the other higher level predators. Tigers, bears etc. You can be whichever you like, I'm sticking with eagle for now. It is all over the internet that the world's population of humans is growing exponentially but so are other global populations, particularly sea life and particularly the 'new discoveries' about the multitude of simple celled marine organisms like plankton. They are truly beautiful now we have the technology to see them but once again because no one has seen a commercial application for them the research is underfunded and underutilised. Just because people present 'oddly' as you noted their empirical observations are there to be peer assessed and it is people like you who can possibly spot something they missed because you are prepared to imagine and to hypothesis too. Of course words are of their time and place, which is why I said the tower of babel allegory is a truly useful framework. It has also been noted recently nature replicates useful patterns in many organisms. Idea originally posited in film 2001 A Space Odyssey plus mad computer Hal. contd..
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        Dec 15 2012: Second post. Am aware of the 'addiction' gene and for want of better words, the U.K, rave scene was essentially flashing lights and narcotics/alcohol in an otherwise dark space but what people seem to have missed is 'the hysteria factor'. People need to be around other people, women especially as their menstrual cycles seem to synchronise. Having babies at a certain time of year would certainly make for a better chance of offspring survival in ancient times. An agrarian system definately makes for a more consistent food source but as you have pointed out it is labour intensive and as any business knows the highest cost is always the staff. Personally I am always better off away from other people because I am too sensitive to atmospheres being oversensitised at a young age. I have trained as a counsellor and work on a limited basis in the voluntary sector. Now I am physically disabled too so it is a very good fit for me. In older societies I would possibly have been the village wise woman but as you know many women like me were murdered as 'witches' in the middle ages. In psychological tradition it is now called projection, people 'seeing in others, their own darkness'. Another term is 'the shadow self'. The pressure on global resources due to the human population will be regulated by Mother Nature. Women soak up all the environmental toxicity and then pass it on to their children. It takes a very strong woman to say no, this idea is disgusting and not many societies give women a voice at all. Literally the stress causes changes to hormone levels and to the genetic coding and babies are affected. When I had my baby the midwives noted how many were aware and awake wheras they used to be born with eyes shut. Hope this makes sense. Want to digest post about solar plasma linkages and will respond. Nature does not waste useful patterning, does it link in with yr research re neurological functioning and electrons/the human electricity system ?
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          Dec 15 2012: Hi Elizabeth,

          We are way off topic, but the exploration is valuable.

          The call and answer .. I like the Waulking songs.. the shanties and the tunes that capture the waves at teh shore.
          The children are young and will create a new language, as they always have done. They must do it to exlude the influence of old words that apply to an old world in decline.
          The old sift and sort old words in hope that one day they will be asked.
          Some words are timeless, the children will discover them, just as we did - either from your mouth, or mine, or another - or they will discover them in their own mouths.
          A computer is a tool. A fragment. It will become the limb of a self - that self might be human, but need not be so. But there is a problem:
          Most my life, I was able to push my awarenes into musical instruments, machines and circuits - feel them like my own hand, my own eyes. This is not remarkable - we now know that we can map anything in our brains. But I have observed as computers have thrown up barriers and no longer admit us - we are allowed "apps" which are small transient windows, and we no longer control them. They are now at the behest of the new priesthood - super-scribes who's craft is impenetrable. At one time - i was one. But now, there is no single human who knows what goes on in a computer. Another course of high stones in the rickety tower.
          As for the world - I can smell it, I can feel it. And today, my wife learned how to tune a cheap AM radio to the gap between stations and use it to detect teh apalling amount of RF radiation coming from everything in our house and beyond. We are in a murky mud of radiation - and keep that damn cell phone away from your head - that's microwaves - the end-point of entropy - and it will take you down with it. I knew this when I was working for telcos - watched the cancers develop in friends.

          The yellow-river dolphins.
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          Dec 15 2012: We might be eagles - but the world is now one big farm.
          So we respond as wolves in farmers' clothing and tend that corner of teh farm over shadowed in weed and woods - the places where the sheep and the dogs fear to go.
          Let us set skulls on sticks about this place, paint our faces in wode and learn the arts of invisibility.
          The sea life .. yes, but the acidity will ensure that most those species remain undiscovered. And then, there is the life below the sea and below the land - it is more biomass than that above. did you know that? and did you know that that is already invaded - by the synthetic bacteria designed to extract oil - look at craig venters shamefully dishonest anouncement here on TED - he has driven the mass extinction to those places below, and we will have to live with the methane now.
          When you add that unanounced consequence with the altered ionic balance .. the next flood will not be water.
          The genes ensure nothing - don't fall to that trap. The genes only define risks - the choices we make in life determine if those risks fall on us. The device of adiction is the combination of dopamine with PosB. There are genetic variances of susceptibility to this vector, but for myself I will be looking at the extension of proto-self regulators into the autobiographical-self matrix - I believe it is there that excessive behaviour will be found along with erroneous world-views - not in the genes.
          Babies are beign exposed to a lot of RF in the womb - the pineal cannot tell the difference between naturakl light and radio frequencies and this affectst eh production of melatonin - which is the primary agent for neutralising free radicals created by cell division .. free radicals damage DNA. They also come from cooked things and poorly manufactured plastics. It is a wonderful thing that any life still survives - but there you go, the power of adaptation is truly impressive.
          Google Helen Caldicot - we have other things to think on.
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    Nov 25 2012: I am against cloud seeding because the long-term effects with respect to local and non-local environmental impact are not well-documented. I am unaware of any scientific study results showing the global impact of disbursing silver-iodine, a known toxic substance, into the atmosphere. Also, significantly altering natural, long-range precipitation levels must be recognized as a major impact on the environment, and therefore must be better understood than it is now. The potential for global impact is sufficient to warrant further research before implementation.
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      Nov 25 2012: Thank you for your perspective Edward.
      There is another angle to this - and that is the one of opportunity.
      My state is conducting cloud seeding in order to extend the ski season in the local snow fields.
      What is not being made public is the operation going on over my head - far from the snow fields. I can guess why it is being done here because I am on the catchment area for a major city water-supply dam that was drying-up.
      However, to my knowledge, anyone can commission cloud seeding for whatever purpose with the appropriate aprovals. This approval process is not well known and might not even be sought.
      from what I understand, most the cloud seeding is conducted by private aviation companies. One can imagine that having such an adjunct "product" would be a boon to an otherwise cash-starved industry.
      So the issue is "nanny-state" against due dilligence.
      It is the same as gun laws. How much power can humans manage responsibly? Can we control it, should we control it? Should we just let people extinct themselves? Is there any alternative?
      Anyway, that's somewhat off topic.

      Here, I have stated two "for" cases" - extended commercial snow-season, and mittigation of water shortage.
      I note that these are very short-term advantages - but on the other hand, no one has any idea about the long term beyond policy that just "feels right" or may have some historical political advantage.
      At the very least, I think people have a right to access what is actually known..
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        Nov 25 2012: Well spoken sir. However, I will stress the importance of knowing long-term effects of activities which could have a domino effect on the planet. The silver-iodine risks need to be understood and mitigated. As an example, the dams that destroyed the Aral Sea had huge advantages associated with them, far greater than extended ski seasons, but no one looked at the big picture. I think another example is the cell phone which MAY cause brain cancer. Anyway, I remain with the anti-cloud seeding group. Showering the sky with poison should be prohibited until we know it is not as bad an idea as it sounds.
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          Nov 26 2012: I Agree, but I would like to see the "Pro" case argued.
          Silver iodide is indeed classed as a poisin, but the toxicology does not seem exhaustive.
          In the case of cloud seeding over my locality, it will all end up in the water supply of 7 million people. I'm not sure how the concentrations will pan-out. However, having watched about 20.000 litres of hydaulic fluid go rolling down the creek into that particular dam, I suppose it's moot whether the silver iodide will be well represented amongst the other toxins in there.
          Toxicology itself is undergoing some updates. For instance, we are only just beginning to understand teh exogenic/environmental influence on gene expression.
          We have no idea what "junk dna" wil be activated by these things. Such activations bring with them "sets" of traits that may have been de-activated back when we were were carbonaceous creatures - back when the air was different. THis would lead to a lot of still-births, or bad maladaptations. On the other hand, may re-adapt us to the air we are creating for ourselves. Iether way it is cataclysmic.
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        Nov 26 2012: I read that propeller aircraft flying through clouds have an effect similar to cloud seeding. Hmmm. Anyway, here are some purported "potential benefits" which could be useful:
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          Nov 26 2012: Hmmm Here we go.

          It's amazing what happens when there's 7 billion brains on a planet - there is almost always an answer being found - or under investigation:

          This fellow has been looking for the observable, confirmable extent of cloud seeding - and a whole lot more!

          Worth a look at... I kinda feel silly asking the question in the face of this!
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        Nov 26 2012: Wait. What? I thought this was an innocuous but interesting subject. Suddenly there is the spectre of world domination. Epithets like "conspiracy theorist" have already been tossed. Tin foil hats are now showing up and I suspect any day now Bush will be accused of causing hurricane Sandy as a way to disrupt the DNC. When in doubt cut it out! Cease all overt and covert weather modification and geomodification immediately. Appoint a Climate Czar with unchecked power to prosecute cloud seeders wherever they are found. Don't feel silly Mr. Smith, you have simply given another real concern to add to our bulging bag of worries. Thank you?
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          Nov 26 2012: The link is picturesque, I must admit, but it does seem to have gathered a lot of the pros and cons. I found a few other websites, but this one seems to have gathered up most of the more repuatble ones.

          The interesting thing, when one has a look at the official material, is that cloud seeding seems to be only around 10% successful.

          I don't think it's something to cause so much alarm. My topic was prompted by the practice of it over my head - dimming the mountain sunshine I so love - that coupled with the seeming lack of transparency prompted me to consult the good thinkers of TED.

          The true "tinfoil-hat-wearing-brigade" are blaming Obama - I must say, following this theme on the internet has turned up some very enetertaining material .. Monty python would approve.

          But, when one is considering the potential of weather alteration, it starts to hit the same jurisdictional issues as the internet.

          I think it warrants discussion. The bones of truth-not-told will agregate the flesh of imagination. So what is this particular beasty? A dragon of a wombat?
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        Nov 26 2012: I worked on several "Deep Black" projects during my servile and mediocre career as a design engineer. The secrecy was was always in the interest of national security. I don't see how secret experimentation on the dynamics of our planet's weather is in the national interest. As soon as Dec. 21 is over I am going to panic about this.
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          Nov 26 2012: I think transparency is key.
          The problem with secrecy is that we are not given the opportunity to ask critical questions.
          In a democracy, we have the chance to prevent antithetical interests from hijacking our community value. Whilever the issue is not under the scritny of our millions of brains, we are at the mercy of any interest that decides to take-up lodging in the vacuum.
          At the moment, it seems to be mostly aviation companies offering a service to agricultural and state bodies. It would seem natural for them to do so - certainly any business must look for avenues of income. However, I group this particular service with the practice of "sky writing" which, to me, was the gross vandalising of my sky for the benefit of strangers who asked no leave of those inflicted.

          Advantage begins at the very local field of perception - one can say " her'e's a service I can do and get paid. Fine. Then there's the company that says - "write my Toyota logo in the sky" - seems OK - people don't object so much to marketting in their other environments - so tacit approval is assumed. But I am not the only one who gets ticked-off by people meddling with my sky.

          The Dec 21 thing is terribly seductive. THe combined hysteria itself might precipitate problems. For myself, I've stopped listening .. I have my own pet theory - and it's way beyond anything we should worry about. Which leaves good-old hum-drum politics. The real issues never change, and we might be better served to keep concentrating on the fundamentals. As far as I'm concerned, the fundamental issue still remains with "how do we manage our tribal dynamics - is there truly a threat from other tribes?: if so, what is it and what can we do about it without resorting to obsolete prehistoric mathods.
          Having granted unlimited power to ourselves, I can't see cave-man techniques serving us.
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    Dec 16 2012: I don't think we can know the long-term impacts of changing variables at such a small level.

    You manipulate variable X on the may turn out to be a huge impact in the future. Our changes scale with time. If it scales may create a hurricane from one extra mass of clouds.

    I think Mitch has it right. We cannot go around making changes until we at least consider the possible long-term impacts. We also need to understand that we may not know the possible impacts. Therefore, we cannot even gauge the risk properly.

    We know our universe is cause and effect.

    So we change a column of data (ABXABXABX) TO (ABXABXABXG).

    We have now created a new "law" in the universe. Think of the blue sky before the cloud.

    (blue sky) Then after the cloud (blue sky + cloud).

    We would obviously consider the type of cloud and the possible future states of the cloud. However, the main problem here is that we now changed things.

    As space 1 with (ABXABXABX) would have operated as an empty now operates as a space with clouds in it. This will in turn change the way that space reacts to everything else. As the cloud moves it changes the potential state of each space equally. If the cloud merges with another cloud or meets other weather systems it adds information that would have never been present before.

    (New Cloud) + (Space 5555555 (Inserted cloud)) instead of (Space 5555555(empty)).
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      Dec 17 2012: I agree.

      it has been observed that clouds are formed by electro-static forces.
      The water dropets nucleate around a positively charged particle and form a lipid plasma with a greater positive potential at the surface. The concentration of negative charge around the nucleus attracts other dropets which approach to balance with the more distributed positive charge at which point they stop converging - this is why a cloud is not a single blob of water.
      Electrical discharges alter the attraction/repulsion balance and allow for larger dropets to form enough to precipitate aas rain.

      Artificially seeding clouds increases the electrical potentials - they may not come to precipitate, but they will raise the atmospheric plasma potentials. I suspect that most of what we take for "UFOs" are no more than plasma phenomena. I also suspect that the earth's electromagnetic relationship with the sun and solar system is being altered in unpredictable ways.

      Chaos mathematics gives us some understanding of teh dynamic range a system is capable of - but that implies understanding of teh energy available to the system. If it becomes entangled in a wider system, the energy potentials are unknowable.
      In other words; whilever we are simply manipulating local systems(atmosphere), the risk is measurable within a range, but if potentials attract participation in wider systems, one has to fully comprehend the risk potentials there - and we don't. It might be argued that there is an infinite continuum of wider systems - which implies that we will never know.

      So that brings us to the nature of "agency". I argue that my responsibility for what i do(agency) is to keep the effects of my acts to impact me and me alone - and that if my acts impinge the conditions of others, then it must be done with negotiated consent - to do otherwise is a violation.

      Vandalising my sky is a violation - and it is not just a cosmetic violation.
  • Dec 15 2012: Just like to add my two cents worth.

    IMO, you, Mitch, nailed it with this:

    "In my opinion, the real issue lies in the un-knowability of outcomes. That we are meddling with stuff that cannot be predicted seems somewhat cavaleer and irresponsible."

    I call this attitude childish. At one time in human history the use of new technologies with little concern for unintended consequences was natural and the results were generally positive. We now can clearly see the evidence of our mistakes. People often use the automobile to justify this cavaleer behavior, by asking if we should ban automobiles and go back to the days of the horse and buggy. The automobile is an excellent example for taking a more responsible attitude toward new technologies. It is completely obvious that we could have saved many lives by making automobiles more safe from the beginning. The pollution from automobiles might have been foreseen and mitigated, and many cases of various lung diseases might have been avoided.

    Employing new technologies without understanding the full effects is irresponsible, and irresponsibility is childish. In the case of cloud seeding, the full effects are unknowable no matter what research we do.

    Perhaps it is too much to expect that the human race will ever mature.
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      Dec 16 2012: Yes - it seems that way.

      I am reminded of teh story of the doomsday prediction in the 1800's where the malthusian effects of the population growth in New York city would lead to horse manure 6 feet deep in the streets.
      This is quotaed often in support of Henry Ford's production-line breakthrough that replaced the horse with the internal combustion automobile.
      They use this arguement as progress against Malthus.
      However, can you imagine the value of 6 foot of horse manure - enough to cover long island?
      Who would have any need for nitrogen fertiliser?
      Can you imagine the number of jobs created in collecting, processing and distributing all that natural humus?
      Can you imagine the quality of the produce enhanced by that fantastic resource? All of it cerified organic?
      The promethians still use their half-considered arguement for brute force against the planet.
      But then .. think of all the methane.
      Never worry - we are getting the methane now, and our children have not learned how to live with our brothers the horses.

      THere is no going back. We pay now or pay tomorrow with interest.
      When the interest bill exceeds our value - we no longer have value, and the conservation of entropy will collapse the envelope we call "self" - i.e. us.
      It is not the bankers, it is not the politicians, it is not the corporations it is not the illuminati - it is us.
      In our petulant insistence of false comfort and unreasonable convenience, we have cancelled our own account with the universe. The knocking on our door - it's the debt collector and he is not a man.
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    Dec 15 2012: 2nd post, keep it brief. Went to public meeting in the last fortnight. Special administrator, very slick presentation trying to argue local hospital insolvent when it isn't. PFI initiative repayments too expensive in current economic climate but legally water-tight. Special administrator arguing closure of local hospital only answer and so not true. Sure you know the expression 'lies, damned lies and statistics'. Three london boroughs left with minimal Accident and Emergency cover and closure of associated surgical wards etc. People will die. So went to public meeting and filled out the IPSOS-MORI form and wrote to my M.P. (who wrote back). Actually stood up and said my piece at the meeting. Too many people driven by the clock still, warm in their offices with access to the latest technology. The rest of us literally silenced by closure of public facilities like libraries so denied access to photocopiers etc. Don I am incredibly lucky in so many ways, social mobility in this country being shut down tight.
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      Dec 16 2012: What is solvency if it is not health?
      You know, I see all the juvenile arguements about capitalism and socialism.
      The truth is that all value is current - it's what we eat - it is what we all need to stay alive. There is no other value.
      If you want a library - get together with your neighbors and start one.
      If you want a hospital. Learn the skills of nursing, midwivery, folk remedy and subvert doctors to become humans and do their work for produce or the love of it.
      There is no government - haven't you noticed that?
      There are a series of warlords.
      Walk away from them and just let community re-form - it does it all by itself - we are wired to produce it simply by being human - it needs no enforcement, it needs no government.
      Be suspect of the seed of the tower: hierarchy.
      We were sold the lie that the many labour so the few can lead and this is civillisation. This is a lie.
      What we call civillisation is the opposite - it is barbarism.
      The religions are perverted to seed our ruin through the heavenly father who does not exist.
      There is a heavenly love - it is nothing like a father or ruler. It is the principle which nurtures and permits - there is no rod there is no staff - it was all a lie.
      And the tower is set to fall - this is a cause for great cellebration - all who resist will be swept away.
      So polute my skies radiate my waters, make weapons to destroy the world a thousand times over - this gives me great joy - the final suicide of perversion. Bring it on and bring it on soon.
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    Dec 15 2012: Hey Don Wesley, at risk of getting told off by TED staff cannot find a way of communicating with you other than this. Please look at my post regarding electrical composition of atmosphere and not being at all versed in that vocabulary what four electrical components are there in the balance of the atmospheric gases and water vapour that would assist in protecting the earth in the event of some kind of solar galactic discharge ? The four angels (energies) being personified in the Abrahamic religions as Michael, Gabriel, Ariel and the fourth, My personal e-mail is on my account. My son is as sensitive as me and has said he saw a glowing figure in his room about a month ago. In this age of scepticism it is so hard to communicate ideas that do not fit with mainstream. Thought it might be something to do with Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine and Thiamine four elements of DNA. Very fond of Jung, possibly because like me he was a bit wobbly at times but the 24 hour time frame we currently work in is a product of the industrial revolution with the synchronisation of railway timetables and the need to get the labourforce out of the fields and into the factories to produce goods. Sorry to sound so childish at times, wrestle with a limited technical vocabulary but family motto is With Fortitude and a kind heart so sorry to post on Mitch's conversation but want to hear your thoughts on this Don. Via my e-mail if not relevant to conversation thread. Until soon.
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        Dec 15 2012: Thank you so much Don. In our local media this week a company wants to start a fracing operation here in the U.K. mainland. Fracing is well known for causing local earthquakes. Everyone argued the U.K, was seismically inactive but I remember an earthquake in the 1970s where Scotland 'rose' a little, having been depressed by the weight of glaciation during the last ice age. This is a real time argument. During the Industrial revolution many areas of England were mined for coal and tin etc. Many towns and villages are built over these sites, housing could literally disappear down abandoned mine shafts if fracing starts. I read in the last few months that the UK could start experiencing 'black outs' from 2015. The old coal fired power generators are being shut down as they are non-compliant with EU regulations. Sufficient nuclear generation plants were never built because of the 'green' lobby. Already in rural areas the local councils literally shut off the street lighting at night to save money. Electricity and gas have become incredibly expensive and we do not have the climate of somewhere like California or Oz or even my beloved NZ. Lets not talk politics but the ordinary people of the UK do not know what is going to hit them come next April. My local councillor said a recession may have been turned into a depression. Governance as suggested to Mitch in earlier post, Socrates said 'beware the anger of the mob'. Already riots in southern Europe, had one in London 2010. Technology only available to those who can afford it, used to use internet in my local library but that is not maintained due to cost cuts and all the libraries set up by Carnegie closed by local councils too. Apathy, ignorance and avarice already here. This is going to take a second post, sorry Mitch.
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    Dec 15 2012: Last thought - read so much science fiction, which used to be a way of getting some hypothesis 'out there' for discussion in the community when the academic/scientific community could not find funding to pursue the research. Plasma linkages possibly correlates with the ideas of 'worm-holes' ie could be used for superfast travel? Some humans end up with neurological deficits that mean the electrical messages do not travel fast enough or travel erratically resulting in spasms and tremors. Not going to get any further into that one as hugely distressing results for those affected. Want to read about the 'plasma discharge' explanation of canals on Mars. As you said if we are due to'get in the way' of some kind of plasma discharge hope our atmosphere has sufficient balance of electrolytes to cope. Also wonder if satellite communications would be knocked out - now that would be a huge blow to global business as it is all conducted electronically these days. Another bonus day for me thank you so much.
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      Dec 15 2012: It's all part of the tower.
      Sometimes fact creates fiction.
      Sometimes fiction creates fact.
      Sometimes it's just an acurate reading of causality.
      Either way, the technologies we base our world on are fragile - and they become more fragile as each new layer is added. It's all part of the tower.
      The last rally big CME fried most of teh telegraph infrastructure in the USA in the 1890's - set telegraph poles on fire etc. I heard that about 100 telegraph poles caught fire in Texas last week - and there were no significant CMEs.
      Satelites are shut-down at high risk times - but it's no protection against a big CME.

      Wormholes .. hmm as I understand it, time and space lines are universal - you can compress them with big masses or high relative velocities but you can't make them cross-over. And why would you want to? Are you not satisfied with your own time and space?
      Perhaps you can astral-project there - if entropy conducts information, there might be a way. But as far as i can tell, the membranes don't like that sort of thing .. I'll have a think on it. Have a look at Rupert Sheldrake - he's also a magnificent nutter, but has some interesting research on strange "clairvoyance" in animals and humans - with some remarkable data on the "sombody is watching me" phenomenon which cannot be explained by normal causality.
      The point I was making is that the Earth is getting more at risk through the ionic changes we are making to the atmosphere - plus the magnetosphere is weakening (it is the thing that deflects this stuff). It's a bit like begging for trouble - or as we said in my home town "cruisin' for a bruisin'".
      Interesting times indeed!
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        Dec 16 2012: Mitch really want to wish you and the family well. Today there was lightening at 5pm and it's London and it's December. It's as plain as the nose on my face something is really wrong with the weather. Yes 'cruisin for a bruisin' and have a child to protect so getting on with it PDQ. Just wasn't expecting it in my lifetime thats all. Wonderful debate. I watch and observe, I always have. I have stopped watching mainstream tv. I am not interested in 'Gangnam style'. I already have a full skill set, I just need to move my loved ones out of harms way. I am so rich, I can read and write and reason. So as Douglas Adams would say 'so long and thanks for all the fish'.
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          Dec 17 2012: Children are more important than people admit.
          They are not frozen into our ways and can adapt.
          The way forward is to let them get on with it.
          I also wish you and your familiy the best.
          Each moment is a lifetime - don't miss it ;)
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      Dec 15 2012: Oh yes - a tempter indeed!

      All journeys are a single step and then another ..
      Each one a new vista. That is the key to my temptation - the view.
      The view was there before me, in one step it was mine, and in tempting it is no longer mine - it's ours.
      There's joy in that.

      If these steps lead us into a higher court, then we enter it together.

      That which can be of the eath shold be of the earth - let it be cleaned away lest what is of heaven is obscured - gold mistaken for mud, and mud mistaken for gold.

      All I know for sure is that it offends me that my sky is written upon by strangers.
      I can do no more than ask - is there justice in that?

      And along the way, perhaps it can be revealed:the work of shovels that do not discern between heaven and earth. When judgement comes from a pure place, there will be no mistaking it.

      And also along the way, there can be no failure to listen closely and enjoy the dancing with fellow travellers to the beat of the dancing itself - because that is the way.
      It might be narrow and beset by brambles - but the feet that tread it do so in celebration.

      Justice truly is the balance - we do our best to know what is on each side of the scale, but in truth, there is only one who knows for sure.

      Love also to you Don.
  • Dec 12 2012: wonderful post. Rech Chemical Co.Ltd sells magnesium sulphate.
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      Dec 12 2012: Epsom salt.

      Yes - putting sulphates up above teh ionosphere would definitely stop global warming.
      I assume that is already being done.
      (I missed this link - seems the topic is far from new - what is odd is that the public/political discussion has still not happened - and here we are 5 years later than the TED talk that brought it up.)
      What is interesting in that link is that anyone with a high power microwave emmitter could use photophresis to loft a bunch of epsom salts up over he ionosphere and cause an ice age.
      Very low cost - total world domination.
      I expect that is already prepared in some parts of teh world - it would be a political necessity - just like the MAD policy with nukes.
      It has still not been passed to the community for discussion.
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        Dec 12 2012: OK post 3, hands malfunctioning today as very cold minus 4 in London last night. Don't need any mad scientists or global domination theories here, global warming already got London in it's icy grip. No cloud cover in the daytime lovely but at night temperatures fall away dramatically. Icy fog is not the sort of cloud cover anyone wants, it closes airports for a start. Seem to remember reading recently entropy actually not happening, if anything wave pattens seem to be accelerating so scientists in that field have an enigma or dichotomy to explore. With regard to human motivation, good and evil are value judgements (see Aristotle for the arguement on that one re a virtue just being an appropriate point between two vices). With further regard to human classification although in same biological category as sentient creatures like apes and dolphins humans actually unique. Human brains half monkey, half lizard (you would have to look through my entire history of posts to find the book I quoted someone else about that). The sheer amount of human knowledge that has been acquired even since the 1960s is truly incredible. The sheer amount of human misery still around is also truly incredible. Been seeing what is happening in Damascus and truly petrified. Going to get shouted at again by TED staff for lack of focus but it is all relevant to this debate Mitch so do bear with me. The so called 'great and good' need cold hard cash to fund their belief systems. The environment is what sustains all of us. Ben Elton (UK author) wrote a novel about what might happen if air became so polluted, breathable air became a marketable commodity. Any living organism will compete for whatever resources are available, even plants will put out bigger leaves or grow taller if necessary. This is going to take a 4th post.
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        Dec 12 2012: OK 4th post and enough for now. It seems to me the problem is time. All living organisms need some time to reproduce, the environment affects which genes are switched on and off. It has been noted somewhere that more boy babies are born after a period of war and don't know if that research was ever followed through. Female humans usually much physically and genetically stronger but can only reproduce a finite number of children (I understand after the fifth pregnancy the risk to mother and baby is much higher). Because of the weird seasons we have been having, this summer the dominant bird in London has changed from pigeons back to sparrows. The fact that hawks are being flown out of the Royal Parks in central London might also be involved. Sparrows have done well this year as they managed to get two clutches of eggs hatched and there has been a huge amount of insects for them to consume. Your tower of babel allegory as a pattern of functionality a really good framework for so many observations. Yes where people ill-educated and literally wage slaves, no time to even formulate informed opinions let alone get them heard and acknowledged. Truly frightening things going on here for poor people and yet media keep reporting on events thousands of miles away. Apathy, avarice etc truly changing social paradigm here rapidly. 'Great and the good' OK thank you very much but forgetting it is the little people that make their world so cosy and no jobs means no one can pay their taxes. USA has it's welfare state now but ours in danger of expiriing. Oldest artifact is the cup of community, as evidenced in pagan and christian sites. Even if an optimal size community is 200 every one of those 200 has potential and the meta communities fight to feed and love is not greater than the individual self's needs. Please refocus me if straying away from thread of this debate. Great debate !!!
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          Dec 12 2012: I'll reply on the other thread.
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    Dec 11 2012: Somehow the words 'quantum physics' and oscillating waves as seen on an oscilloscope seem appropriate, not sure why. Got the bit about entropy.
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      Dec 12 2012: Yes - waves are good. They can be measured - but the waves of the subatomic particles cannot be measured. To measure things requires the investigator to place something in the wave which is smaller than the wavelength of the thing being measured. Sub atomic particles have nothing smaller - so they can only be deduced theoretically.
      There is nothing smaller than a subatomic particle because anything that inflects its entropic field would produce infinite entropic potential (gradient goes vertical = division by zero) - and the universe does not venture beyond a singularity.
      This is in accordance with entropic waves - each wave contains a self within the negentropic envelope and a field of super-entropy defining the balance against universal entropy. The gradient of universal entropy is made steeper whwn you look at teh line from peak to trough. That line represents a gradient which is greater than the universal entropic gradient - an area of greater potential - which is a perfect environment for another self to form-up. So you get a bunch of new smaller selves riding on the increased potential of teh larger self. As you might see, these smaller selves also give rise to steeper gradients - and will spawn more sub-entities - with even steeper potentials - and so on til you get a near-vertical line - a subatomic particle.
      LOL! one can postulate the big wave at the top of this process - it might not even have a gradient - it might be the first gradient - the origin of all potential .. perhaps you could name it "god" .. but such tokens only appy to one's own scale .. and it is pointless to name it anything beyond "universe".

      So what is happening with geoengineering(cloud seeding) is that a certain class/scale of entropic entities is trying to flatline the super entropic field surrounding it (risk deferral) by manipulating the potentials of teh wider self on which they depend (the earth). The Earth might have other ideas.
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        Dec 12 2012: Hi Mitch, possibly going to get shouted at again by TED staff but upon reflection have the following to say and it will take a couple of posts. 1. Have known for a long time family name is actually Clan MacRae but found out yesterday possibly a descendant of Bonnie Prince Charlie (so what, good luck proving that one). Clan motto is with fortitude (family attributes strength and a kind heart) so not wanting to let the ancestors down here goes. Firstly I want you to look up Thomas the Rhymer (a 13th century Scottish poet and seer) and see if any of his stuff is relevant, particularly the bit about black rain. 2. Want you to know Mother Nature does not permit any dysfunctional organism to survive for long. 3. So called mental illness is not necessarily dysfunctional just out of step with what a society might want at a particular time. That is why I want you to look at the tradition of Scottish seers. 1715 was a turning point in my family history, Clan Macrae did their best but due to someone else's mistake, they paid heavily. Clan Macrae were noted as poets, physicians and musicians. So many people do not know their family history past the immediate four generations beforehand but we inherit so much in our genes and it takes a decent education to be able to utilise it. Caring for someone who seems erratic and chaotic given a 24 hour linear time frame is exhausting and I truly hope you are OK because carers do a massive service to society and get no financial renumeration for it. Carers do it for love and yet are also expected to continue to pay the bills regardless of how much they save society in other ways. Got some thoughts about the actual conversational thread here and going to post in addition.
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        Dec 12 2012: Second post, (there will be a third directly related to the debate about cloud seeding too). Want to offer you the words of Ashley Rice 'As you go on in this world..always believe in your dreams. Keep looking forward to the all you might be. Don't let old mistakes or misfortunes hold you down. Learn something new every day. Be interested in others and what they might teach you. Believe in yourself. So long as you are true to the strength within your own can never go wrong.
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          Dec 12 2012: OK - I'll take it point by point (will take a efw posts - but well worth it):
          TED stands for technology, entertainment and design.
          Being a practitioner of all these, I am happy to be here - but I'm not fooled.
          These are the vectors of agendas.
          Within the entropic ripple created by TED, it is not just the speakers who get to feast at teh gradient - I know a stage when I see one ;)
          The administrators are careful that the posters do not add flavour - at least, nothing beyond the official morsels in the talks - they have agendas to protect.
          Every rule creates winners, losers and cheats - winning and losiing is boring - have fun instead.
          In the agrarian model of humanity there are only 4 roles to ply:
          Farmer, Sheep, Sheepdog and Wolf - only one is human, and only one lies beyond the fence. The fence is an entropic membrane - a closed one.
          My mob are from Glasgow - Leaches and Smithies all, then there's the Irish and teh Romany midwives - all mixed together in the docklands east end of London - pearly kings.
          I did all the metaphysics stuff - but the language is broken and new words must be made.
          Entropy is un-sullied - and all it means is a transition from coherence to homogeneity.
          True - pattermning is seen everywhere, but these are the ripples of negentropy - teh background radiation tells the story.
          And you can observe it - my thesis consists entirely of the obvious.
          You eat and extrete - what comes out of you is de-structured compared to what goes in.
          I started on this while examining the obvious system of survival = stimulus/reaction where the reaction maintains the ability for stimulus. So it makes a loop .. and I ask myself - a loop in what? Well .. it's energy .. but where does the energy come from? Well, it comes from some kind of storage .. and how does it get stored .. mostly from other living things - plus a bit of salt from teh earth. But is the earth not living? Let's assume that it is. Here is assumption 1 - let's test it by and by.
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          Dec 12 2012: Thomas the Rymer sounds like he was drunk a lot of the time (Wa's fu?)
          That's not a criticism - there are times for such things, and in Scotland, that was most of the time ;)
          Anyway - the entropy thing is an exercise in extrapolating the bleedin' obvious - assuming that everything is obvious and there are not a lot of rules in a universe.
          Have a look at Wolfram - his cellular autonoma are very much like what i call "shapes" - they are very simple but can generate any amount of complexity so long as they get energy. .. so what if the shape IS energy? That would make things quite a lot simpler - and I feel that the truth of the universe is far too simple to convey in words - so i use models.
          My basic model is a sloping line (entropy) with a sine-wave modulating it in one single cycle - I call that "self" - it is a standing wave maintained by the loop. And I nicked the idea of "conservation" from Newton - otherwise a self would be just a hump on the entropic slope - all sine waves go above and below the zero reference - so if an observable self is teh lumpy thing we see - then it must have a dip around it which we don't see. But we do see things in that dip - other selves. I propose that where the hump ends and teh dip begins is a thing we call "skin". So I go looking round for anything that might be remotely described as a self - and they all have some kind of skin - and they are all surrounded by other selves - smaller ones consuming the exreta of the larger one.
          It works in physical space and it works in meta-space.
          I'm still evolving eh description of meta space - potential agency is the energy of meta-space. Potential - any graph that has the X axis as time is about potential. So now we start to get a handle on time. SO I assert that all potential arises in entropy.
          This absolutely destroys world-views - and that is my jehad - it's time for all world views to fall - they are clogged up with the lies and wrong turns of history.
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          Dec 12 2012: That is not my only jehad - you cannot just go tearing down 7 billion world-views (and teh meta-creatres that dwell in them) without providing an escape hatch.
          So I describe healthy community where I can and spend time with healthy communities when I can - I make pennywhistles because when one has no road left but the narrow one beset by brambles, it's nice to have a tune.
          But that is a bit glib - the pennywhistle is humble - but it is cheap and easy to play - and it makes music from the breath and teh hands - it bypasses the world view - and makes a path directly from what we call the "heart" to the world of our life. One cannot pick up a pennywhistle, with the serious intent to play, without starting on a journey of purification.
          I call it "the way of teh tin leprechaun" - and it is a doorway to heaven - it leads one into the company of other pure hearts. I can't describe it properly - you just have to do it and observe - it is real magic - similar to the mandrake, but without the violation - reality changes. So .. one gets curious, and this leads to the physics of self - I am certain that the autobiographical self in humans is critically ill - it is suposed to be a tool, but has become identity - and god.
          There will certainly be black rain in Aberdeen - but the darkness falling on the north is invisible - and it comes from Japan, not Scotland. Perhaps Aberdeen will get some volcanic matter when iceland goes off. All that mass-loss in greenland will affect the tectonic plates - and the atlantic rift has been strangely quiet - as has the sun.
          With the ionic balance of sea land and air beign altered, all manner of strange things happen in the plasma behaviour - things start getting more combustible (flame being a plasma). Being so close to the skin of teh Earth, the behaviour of the Earths wider super-entropic field (the magnetosphere) weakens - and the old man Ra has paused to think about his child. Ra has a bright finger - that's not water erosion on Mars ;)
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    Dec 11 2012: Doiuble post because got some more to say. Existentialism argues life is random and chaotic and we each construct belief systems based partly on nature and partly on nurture. Linking to Damasio 3 levels of self, now in talking therapy there is a way of working which asks people to listen to their hearts and stomachs as well as what their mind is telling them. The Enlightenment meant the mind became the so-called centre of our intelligence but now people talk about emotional intelligence and spiritual intelligence as well. It seems as soon as one person demonstrates some kind of advantage in the utilisation of local resources, other people want to take advantage of it and somehow whatever that advantage is becomes a distinct commodity. So on one level my arguement is messing around with the atmosphere is really bad news because the results locally may be advantageous short term but disasterous long term. Agree it is in the other sources of news like the internet and the scientific journals that evidence-based scientific discussion is found rather than every day media. Now global communication used to be through cables laid along the sea bed and now it is via satellite relays. If the electron balance in the sky is altered by practices such as cloud seeding, what might the effect on the internet 'cloud' be ?
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      Dec 11 2012: well .. at the risk of being called a conspiracy theorist again (lol - I've also been accused of being the Illuminatii!) it goes like this:
      current energy state(entropy gradient)-->senses-->perception-->potential agency-->decision-->agency-->changed energy state(inflected entropy gradient) --> repeat loop until collapse. Everything between perception and agency(inclusive) is the self - it can have any number of arcane levels but has survival at its root.
      The potential agency bit is divided into 2 parts - potential advantage and potential disadvantage. If teh self chooses disadvantage, the negentropic inflection which houses it will collapse - so it has to choose the advantage. Potential advantage can have a lot of stuff in it - evolution does not care - it's survival of teh fittest, so all advantage qualifies. However, if the highest advantage(supremacy) is always chosen, then the tower of Babel starts building up to its ultimate fall. In humans it is a little more complex - because the field pf potential agency is not just divided into advantage/disadvantage - it is also divided into individual and community - thus one can choose a potential action that is advantageous to the person, but disadvantage to teh community - this is called sin. If one chooses potential actions that are advantage to both self and community it is called morality, if one chooses action that is disadvantage to self and advantage to communty, it is called martyrdom. If on habitually chooses sin, the benefit of community is destroyed - it's ripple collapses - and the individual with it. Evil is where the individual brings the community to the brink of collapse and keeps it there - this also initiates the tower of Babel.
      Existential life is, indeed chaos, but chaos is not disorder - chaos creates the filaments of existence - like curls of smoke - the arabesque of the fields of super-entropy surrounding the selves of negentropy which are created by the existential loop which ripples in entropy.
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      Dec 11 2012: (second post)

      The conspiracy bit:

      Communities can be no larger than about 200 individuals - we simply don't have the cranium-space to accomodate more. So when you get 7 billion people it is really just an agregation of communities.
      So the communities try to maintain their coherence by having a ruling class. In the democratic model, the ruling class is "elected" to "represent" the collective - which never actually happens. THe instant any group becomes defined by a membrane of closure - it becomes a self and will cycle acording to the existential loop in the interest of its own survival. Since it is a meta-self, it has no connection with the physical biosphere and does not see it. These artificial community selves then begin to harvest the entropic potential from teh "citizens" they become evil by the definition stated above.
      So, it was asked elsewhere "where do conspiracies come from" they come from communities that get too large. This spawns meta selves that act as parasites on humans. There is no formal cabal - it just happens. They give themselves names and flags later to fortify and close teh membrane surrounding them.
      The membrane is very important - it must be porous - if it is hermetic, it will close the system resulting in exponential tensions around the membrane. The trick is to have a membrane which is restrictive enough to inflect the entropic gradient into negentropy - and not so closed that it isolates from it's own super-entropic field. That field will flatline - at the point it flatlines, the entropic gradient supporting the negentropic envelope collapses. You can tell when this is about to happen because the negentropic envelope becomes very narrow and higher - a tower. When it collapses .. it does not tumble-down - it simply becomes infinitely thin by virtue of teh exponents going vertical at the singularity - it then burns-out (often explosively - rupturing the membrane). The universe will not venture beyond a singularity.
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        Dec 11 2012: Wow, need some time to digest this little lot. Great debate Mitch, thank you so much.
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    Dec 10 2012: Bit confused, not sure how latest post relates to original question about value of cloud-seeding. Linear modelling is difficult as it assumes a particular directional trend hence I prefer the chinese puzzle paradigm of boxes within boxes, if that makes any sense in this. Is this an existential idea i.e. what is the purpose of a life lived ? In whose interests are we living and loving ? Also depends what kind of harm that needs to be healed I suppose. Ever heard the expression if it ain't hurting, it ain't working ? Know your passion is neurology so what is the focus of the question ? Do you know the expression 'that which does not kill us makes us stronger ? Was given a really nice quote today by Rice. Will quote it to you if it helps. Current global time system of a 24 hour day is so unhelpful and only arose with the railways in the C19th. Before then time was more seasonal. So either total control or firefighting, sounds like a bloke's point of view. Still like Jung's idea of the universal subconscious i.e. that which is suppressed just pops up again in another form to bite us on the behind, as it were. Existing hurts but that is the way we know we are alive. People born with no pain awareness are in the greatest danger of all. Is this the path your thoughts are taking ? BTW saw a book about the connectome thingy written by Seung, do you know it and does it apply to this ?
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      Dec 11 2012: Hi Elizabeth,
      The conectome thingy applies in ways you might not imagine - but given a bit of splashing-around in neural theory - you will see it plain as day.
      In other places I am assembling the hypothesis of "the conservation of entropy". I think this will be important somehow - your allusion to non-linear boxes-within-boxes fits nicely with it.
      What i was sculptimg in my reply to you was an observation of teh nature of "intent".
      And it is very cogent to the practice of cloud-seeding.
      It all comes down to the russian-doll view of "self",. Damasio shows that we have 3 components of self, we can also observe that individual humans give rise to a community self, and this in turn creates a super-community self.
      These things are all conformant to the notion of a connectome - and connectomes are the evolving state of neural networks - connectome refers to the loadings(potentiation) of synapses - evolving, not static.
      Neural networks are clever, but they have intrinsic flaws. The most pervasive of these is the "local minimum". The local minimum is where a part of teh conectome becomes static. In functional life, this is necessary - you don't want to be having to learn how to walk every time you need to walk .. but it is problematic in areas that must evolve - i.e. a world view.
      So then we get back to "intention" or as you say "in whose interest" do we act?
      All action is executed for the advantage of a "self". And no action can be judged without first identifying that self.
      In the case of cloud seeding, the self is not defined - it could be just an aeronautic company making a dollar, it could be a government manipulating GDP factors, it could be a global cabal fighting off the inevitabilities of global warming, it could be a church hastening the apocolypse - no one has been consulted outside these "selves" - this is evident because we don't know whome is exercising an "interest".
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        Dec 11 2012: OK, somewhere quite close to you on the beach and see you splashing around. There was an intriguing article in the UK media yesterday about the interconnectedness of localised events on global trading patterns. I believe the article cited the impact of a civil disturbance on one continent impacting in another place in the world, not directly connected in any linear way. My understanding of the word entropy is 'decay'. I do have quire a vivid imagination. So, are you familiar with Christmas lights that are set in a net that you hang at the window, each light bulb is connected by a diamond pattern of wires so each light is directly placed at the same distance as another. I am trying to use another analogy, now if one of the lights malfunctions the whole net refuses to work. Mother Nature is far more sophisticated and using the Russian doll/chinese puzzle box analogy, she will find an alternative way of working but whether that way of working is always compatible with an individual 'self' does not matter it seems. It is an age old question - where does the life force go and where did it come from in the first place. Absolutely intriguing isn't it - I have always enjoyed the stories about very kong-ived selves who seem to be able to renew their physical selves by stepping into a flame of some description but the proviso is they must always do it on their own. So yes, who knows what effect our own actions have. I often think about belief systems and am so upset to see in the media so many people really scared about the wierd things happpening lately. Again it was only a small story on the internet but there is a place in France I understand which the local police have had to make into an exclusion zone. I think it was Socrates who said beware of the mob. There are times when groups of people get together, act as a group mentality and generally that type of event is driven by emotions at some kind of hormonal level. A world view = a belief system = whose ?
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          Dec 11 2012: Hmm .. local civil disturbance affecting global trading patterns .. one has to be careful doing causal analysis - you might be seeing the "butterfly affect" or you might be seeing only correlation. In the former it is bound by a common chaos system, in the latter the events are downstream of a master cause and need not be within a chaos system - there are linear causalities. People have been busting their nuts trying to solve market dynanics - chaos means just that - chaos - it has an internal structure that cannot be known without having the starting conditions to an infinite number of decimal places.
          In neural nets, the malfunction of a single neuron will do no more than make the result a little fluffy - the topology will re-adjust to compensate.
          The life force in entropic conservation is conserved - it is the global gradient - any ripple on that gradient can collapse - any net imballance in that collapse will be taken-up by surrounding ripples and "iron-out" the discrepancy - conserving the global gradient. In other words - your life force never dies - but your ego does not go to heaven - no sense of self does. What DOES live on are the selves which have taken up roost on you super-entropic field. In the most banal - these are the bacteria and worms - many of them will leave nothing more than humus, but some will find another field to occupy - or go to sleep in the long trail of fading entropic potential as eggs, cysts or spores. Perhaps these have their meta-equivalent in ideas or artworks.
          The Phoenix is the full cycle of the tower of Babel. But what rises from the ashes is not always the same thing that burned.
          Entropy is simply the process by which things spread-out and homogenise - energy just goes out and out until it joins with the background microwave radiation we see in the entire universe .. about 2 watts per sqr K (or somethign like that). On its way from cohesive lumps of stuff to homogenous haze is a gradient - entropy.
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    Dec 9 2012: The ability to 'summon' rain or to find drinkable water has been an age-old preoccupation. I would suggest cloud seeding is inappropriate because it actually reduces the amount of water vapour in the sky (ie the clouds) and increases extremes of temperature. Whilst no clouds in the day gives a lovely blue sky, no cloud cover at night means a much colder night so an water residue around freezes, causing huge damage to wildlife. Birds and insects which are pollinators are especially susceptable to the cold nights. It might not seem very much but reducing the balance of pollinating birds and insects and providing better conditions for the survival of biting and stinging insects is not a good idea. I would like to suggest that cloud seeding also affects the atmosphere as it interferes with wind speed and storm systems. Nature has it's own filters and condensers in the mountains and oceans of the planet. Removing water vapour to benefit one locality means nature's checks and balances are interfered with. It is possible to get potable water (drinking water) by desalination and by trapping warmer air and letting it condense overnight then collecting the dew. Dry air actually carries more dust, man made fumes and insects so that is what makes me suggest an alternative to cloud seeding needs to happen. Removing water vapour also upsets the electron charges in the atmosphere and I would be interested to know what the impact on the nitrogen cycle might be.
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      Dec 10 2012: Hi Elizabeth,

      Yes - no one knows - or if they know, they aren't exactly shouting it from teh rooftops ;)

      I've had a bit of a wander around the net and there is actually a LOT of discussion going on about geoengineering ethics and methods .. it's just not being touched by mainstream media - and no government is taking the responsibility to inform those they purport to represent.

      Youtube and the blogosphere is enormously entertaining on this topic - everything from chicken little to admiral Nelson ("the sky is falling!" and "Sky? What sky?")

      Aparently a bunch of power poles burst into flames in Texas a few days ago - it is a new bit of fireworks for the kiddies .. and perhaps the aluminium particles on teh fog are helping it all along.

      Others are saying that perhaps global warming is way ahead of schedule and a bit of global-dimming is in order. There might be some legs on that theory .. seems that an awful lot of methane is bubbling up in the gulf and various coastlines - while the tundras are giving up their methane in such quantities that you can ignite any old hole in the ice. And .. erm .. wasn't methane 10 times more greenhousy than Co2?

      And yet others are saying "no! .. It's the Sun - it's doing all this" .. but the sun has been unusually quiet lately .. maybe it's just having a few beers, a bag of crisps and watching the show.

      I remember learning years ago: pay now, or pay later with interest.
      Now what was that about national debt? And what was it we got without paying up? Was it worth it?
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        Dec 10 2012: Mitch you are so observant and thank you for starting this conversation. The media do tend to focus on politics and economics and trading and not on what sustains us all i.e our climatic conditions. There has been a news story recently about oceanic water volume and the fact there is far more oceanic volume than was previously anticipated and far more than could be accounted for by the melting of polar ice caps. When cloud cover is reduced the effects of solar radiation are intensified and it is all the world's ice caps melting including the ones on the tops of the mountain ranges. These are part of the filtering/condensing process and the material that was trapped eg organic material is now getting released into the water supply. I don't have the education or vocabulary for the technical stuff so bear with me but there is a complex 'chinese puzzle' paradigm with the amount of moisture in the atmosphere and the electrical charges therein. Many people aer so concerned with how they are going to pay their bills that the weather is irrelevant to them i.e out of their control. The fact that cloud seeding is going on is truly alarming. Even the artificial clouds generated by international aircraft are 'the wrong type of clouds'. Respiratory disease and infections are a huge killer of people as is extreme cold. Like you said, sometimes it is time to start shouting about what is going on. Maybe all that excess methane can be harvested and utilised rather just releasing it into the atmosphere. As the other fossil fuels are getting rather scarce, a bit of good housekeeping could make the methane into some kind of heating system for growing crops like tomatoes. Thank you so much again for posting this conversation on TED. A nutrient rich ocean is not necessarily a good thing, thinking about algal bloom. Once again algal bloom maybe could be harvested and used as fertiliser to get some of the more sandy soils into a condition to grow food crops.
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          Dec 10 2012: Well, one follows the trails of all these causal chains - and one does start from some kind of moral standpoint - at the very least we have a "human life is good" rule underpinning most world-iews. But always, when you get to the limits of known causality, human life starts to look not so good.
          Each time the real world knocks at teh door of our world views, it is asking us to add more rooms, and as one takes a wider context, humans start looking like failed apes .. Bonobos and dolphins seem to do much better.
          Here's a vital question which no one has asked point blank:
          Sapolski observed taht baboons need only spend a couple of hours taking care of their needs - food gathering and the odd skirmish with other tribes, so they spend the other 10 hours of teh day screwing with each other and makign each otehr miserable (look at his documentary on stress).
          Leaving aside all teh bad behaviour in lower primates (including humans) .. what was that he said? Only 2 out of 12 hours maintaining a reasonable living standard?
          And how many hours do humans work every day?
          Let's assume you have only one job .. and let's assume you don't do any overtime. And let's assume that you spend a further 2 hours at home before you dive into a few beers and turn on the TV for 4-6 hours.
          OK - so how come?
          How come humans need to work so hard?
          Would it not be better to be baboons and spend a few minutes each day educating alpha males to stop being such destructive doiks?
          And .. if we need only work 2 hours - where is all the value for the other 8 hours going?
          Could we be feeding our "labor saving devices"(cars whitegoods etc)?
          Could we be feeding psychopathic alpha males who do nothing?
          THere seem to be 2 mindsets going on - 1. control is good - total control is best. And 2. There is no need for total control - everything that is supressed is forced to arise in another form - desperate, doomed firefighting.
          Death is not bad - it dies, harm is the real problem - it does not die till it is healed
  • Dec 9 2012: If the condensation were to occur uncontrollably due to the "play against nature" it would be far more counter productive than the benefits.
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      Dec 10 2012: The proof being?

      Are we talking about floods/droughts?

      I can see where such things might be judged as harmful to the community - however, is the community being asked? Are we balancing the need for rain against the need for sunlight? Some crops are hurt by rain at the wrong time, others are benefited, should the food-growers be placed at higher priority to the builders - the growers might like rain, whilse the builders need dry days to progress work.

      How does this kind of thing get balanced?

      Should there be some kind of community weather ombudsman who has a formal process accpeted by the community - or should it just be dictated by the king who withers and who drowns?
      Is it something that can be trusted?

      None of these things have been asked - I would like to see the process either started or the king's authority accepted for better or worse - right now, there is nothing but chaos.

      Don't get me wrong - I love chaos - it is fun and lots of people get killed if they don't see it coming. And that's good for evolution ;)
  • Dec 7 2012: whether or not it's a good idea, the public should be given a lot of education on what's going on. otherwise it results in chemtrail conspiracy theorists who become fanatics. the pros and cons of cloud seeding should have been discussed in public forums. instead, it's a now privitized service bought out by public sectors behind the majority's back. nothing should ever happen like this.
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      Dec 7 2012: I agree Max,

      the notion of information is rapidly dissapearing in a puff of youtube soundbytes.
      When I got interested in this a few weeks ago, I went off to see what was beign said around the net, and it's a circus bigger than the Colloseum.

      I think we should start rating issues by some sort of circus-scale - something like nukes.
      Chemtrails would score something like: a 20-megacolloseums on the circus scale.

      So how does anyone get informed consent in amongst all that?

      One thing that it does reveal is that information itself is under attack.

      I think there is an opportunity for a new professional class of people who go out and see for themselves - and come back to report. Sort of like private investigators.
      This is what journalism was supposed to do, but journalism has let us down big-time.

      In the absence of any such reliable service, all we are left with is our senses - if you have not seen it, it is probably a lie. Rumor of what lies byond the horizon is just that - rumor.

      All I know for sure is that I've seen some cloud seeding over my community and it mucks-up the sky. I don't like it, but before I go off complaining, best I understand what I'm talking about .. but the internet is more hindrance than help. I raised the topic here hoping for some more insight - and yes, a little, but not anything to base a decision on.

      I like Marvin Minski - he's a magnificent nutbag, but appears to be honest. He has a talk here somewhere where he observes that people have never sought due dilligence with new technologies - they just go ahead and do it .
      The critical point behind that is to ask - why do we want these powers in the first place? And How much power can a human be trusted with? I'm still iffy about cars .. too many of my friends got killed or killed others by cars when I was a young man - were they to blame?
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    Nov 28 2012: This link is interesting - and on topic:

    What i find curious is that the discussion seems to be happening after the fact.
    It's already on record that weather modification is ramping-up - certainly in regard to cloud seeding.
    Puting sulfides into the air was foreshadowed on a TED talk last year.

    It is clear that a lot of research is being done, and that approval after the fact (is that forgiveness?) is being sought for limited testing.

    Perhaps it resolves to an exploration of authority itself. In a world where no one person can reliably know what is happening beyond their own horison, or what power technology has granted us somewhere else on the planet, is it even reasonable to assume that authority exists? And if it exists, do we want it given the implications of sacrifice of freedoms implied by a world authority?
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      Dec 1 2012: I know I will be skewered for saying it, but there're other--unconventional--ways to invoke rain that doesn't require the use of chemicals of any kind.

      Native Americans have used rain dance to invoke rain. I can invoke rain or stifle it for an indeterminate time, creating an abundance of rain or droughts in the process.

      If I can do it, so can others. We have only to ferret them out, using some non-judgmental method, so that they will be willing to come forward without fear of ridicule and derision.

      I have had success in bringing rain to drought areas, and I believe that I could sustain it for a time, as weather patterns create conditions that leave large areas of the land without sufficient moisture to maintain crops, or to keep areas hydrated sufficiently to prevent forest, or grass fires.

      I'm sanguine that there are others who can invoke rain, but I don't know that for certain. This much I do know: I won't be here forever, and with my passing, my ability to invoke rain will pass with me.
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        Dec 1 2012: Hi Wilbert,

        It is clear that not everything is known - about anything.

        We do our best with perception. But perception is not a tool of absolute knowledge - it is a tool for adapting to the present moment and moving on to the next. If one gets from this moment to the next, then perception has done its job.
        Unfortunately, there is no good test to tell us whether we survived by perception or by chance.
        The scientific method is useful becuase it shows if something is repeatable or not. But it can only contain a local definition of local causality.
        Anything that lies outside the field of perception cannot be tested - and causality is often later shown to be mere correlation.
        The scientific method itslef is careful to recognise this - that it is a hypothesis until shown to be repeatable and becomes a theory when accepted generally by peer review. It does not claim to be final, and new hypotheses are sought when predictions of theory fail.
        But perception is in 2 layers: the firslt layer is tightly coupled with the senses - it consists of a collection of causal maps learned directly from the senses - it is prone to a little error through incomplete observation plus the noise present in both the sensory and percptional signals.
        The secondary field of perception comes to us through language. THis layer is perticularly error-prone. One would do well to assume that most of what is told to us is untrue.
        All you can trust that comes from another's mouth or another's pen is what you can go out and test for yourself - you must assume that the rest is lies.
        Unfortunately, most of a human's world view is composed of this secondary layer - second hand rubbish from delusional or manipulative authors.
        If you can bring rain .. well, I've seen and done some crazy stuff .. so you gat a 50/50 that you are not just trolling for rain business.
        I'd only point out that the perception system has the purpose of adaptation - not manipulation.
        To manipulate is to fail adaptation.
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          Dec 2 2012: "Anything that lies outside the field of perception cannot be tested - and causality is often later shown to be mere correlation."

          I'm not making a case for or against science. It serves a purpose despite its limitations. Yet, I still insist--correlation notwithstanding--I can invoke rain within three or four days of setting the event in motion.

          "All you can trust that comes from another's mouth or another's pen is what you can go out and test for yourself - you must assume that the rest is lies."

          To call something unproven--or not demonstrated to your satisfaction--a "lie" is a bit harsh wouldn't you say, unless it's categorically clear that the intentions of the other were designed to deceive?

          "Unfortunately, most of a human's world view is composed of this secondary layer - second hand rubbish from delusional or manipulative authors."

          I stated, without equivocation, that I posses the ability to invoke rain. Nothing I said should have elicited the conclusion that my purpose was to "manipulate," or that my claim should be summarily dismissed as "second hand rubbish," or that I'm "delusional," simply because my claim resides outside your "perception" and doesn't fit your worldview.

          Where is that scientific open-mindedness!

          "If you can bring rain .. well, I've seen and done some crazy stuff .. so you gat a 50/50 that you are not just trolling for rain business."

          I can "bring rain."

          I've done so for years, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. As I now write, rain clouds have formed overhead, promising more rain to add to the several days we've already seen.

          I live in a drought-prone area, but that likelihood will soon lessen as I continue to invoke rain from time to time to augment the downpours that're seasonal.

          Further, I'm neither a "troll," nor one in need of "rain business." What I do, I do without pay and usually without recognition, as I have no need to be celebrated for that, which for me, is commonplace.
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        Dec 2 2012: Hi Wilbert,

        I have no idea where you live - you don't seem to have a profile ..

        The nucleus of my reply is that manipulation is a failure in adaptation.
        I would argue that the manipulation of our Earth system is timkering with something we will never fully understand.
        I once pulled the life back into a dead woman by drawing it in through her feet.
        Or so I thought at the time. It seemed to work - no lifesigns then lifesigns.
        There is some kind of shamanic principle that cuts in at dire need. Hey ho - that's why you get the 50/50.
        In the realm of secondary perception, I have learned to become quite circumspect - secondary perception is particularly vulnerable to manipulation via world-view - look around.
        I don't think it's harcsh .. in fact, I feel quite forgiving about it all.
        Manipulation of the thing to which we adapt (the universe) leads to the imposition of our world view on the world - it will be in error because our world views are in error.
        Manipulation is the denial of the flow of time - at the very instant you think you have it nailed - or if someone else has it nailed - you are stuck in a static place of suspended adaptation.
        Risk can be defered, or shifted to someone else, but it does not go away. The risk that we shift or defer is cumulative - the masters of manipulation defer risk beyond their lifespan and leave the accumulation for their children.
        There is only one healthy use of risk engineering - and that is social risk-spreading.
        If you are manipulating the weather, by whatever means, I would have to ask your justification for doing so and warn you that there will be a price to pay.
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          Dec 2 2012: "If you are manipulating the weather, by whatever means, I would have to ask your justification for doing so and warn you that there will be a price to pay."

          If there's a price to pay, then I've paid it, or it has been deferred, since I've invoked rain for more than 50 years.

          For reasons you may or may not understand, I don't share many personal details--too many in our midst have camouflaged both their intention and their purpose, harboring one nefarious goal after the other.

          Knowingly or unknowlingly, we all "manipulate" the weather, as well as other events on the planet, some catclysmic, while others are scarely noticed. I rather doubt that my invoking rain will do any more harm than has already been done to the planet, what with the climate change that's now consuming our collective attention.

          "I would argue that the manipulation of our Earth system is timkering with something we will never fully understand."

          Argue all you wish, but I understand the nature of reality, and the methodolgy involved in what you refer to as "manipulation." Given that understanding, I can asure that there's no "risk" involved in what I do, and no risk deferral.

          The risk only comes when I don't intervene to cancel what's been set in motion by the collective, crop failure, as well as forest and wildfires.

          "I would have to ask your justification for doing so."

          The answer is simple: because I can.

          "I have learned to become quite circumspect - secondary perception is particularly vulnerable to manipulation via world-view - look around."

          I have no need to "look around," as you suggest. There's sight and there's sight. There's a relative view and there's an absolute view. I move between the two withiout missing a beat, engaging source while others "tinker" with effect.

          "Manipulation is the denial of the flow of time."

          I don't "manipulate." As for time, it's a human construct, which allows us to separate cause and effect sufficently to observe it, since cause and effect are one.
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          Dec 2 2012: "If you are manipulating the weather, by whatever means, I would have to ask your justification for doing so and warn you that there will be a price to pay."

          Another observation: Is not the title of your piece the following: "The case for cloud-seeding"?

          Aren't you building a case for "manipulating the weather"?
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        Dec 2 2012: Are you proud of your ability to do these things?
        If you have such ability - why do you fear?

        Oh - and do you play music?
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          Dec 2 2012: "Are you proud of your ability to do these things?"

          I take no more pride in them than I take pride in walking or talking: It's a natural extension of who I am.

          "If you have such ability - why do you fear?"

          I'm not afraid. I'm cautious. If your experiences were my experiences you'd be cautious, too. Shakespeare was spot on when he spoke these words through Hamlet:

          "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
          Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

          I may not be afraid to handle a rattler, but it would be imprudent to throw caution to the wind when I do it.

          "Oh - and do you play music?"

          Sometimes the piano, more as a dilettante than a pro.

          "I am not building a case, I am exploring the issue."

          Godspeed with your exploration.

          "[A]ll world views are false - including mine."

          Yet, they represent your truth, and for that reason they are an integral part of who you are, oftentimes forged in the crucible of life and one's experiences. With that in mind, they should be treasured, as they will, most assuredly, serve your larger purpose one day, soon or late, which is to create yourself anew.
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        Dec 2 2012: To the second reply:

        I am not building a case, I am exploring the issue.

        I jhave my own attitude on the subject, but rather than just go off like Don Quixote' it seems better to gain a wider appreciation - all world views are false - including mine ;)
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        Dec 2 2012: Well, Wilbur,

        Perhaps we should take this offline .. or perhaps we should play in the sun.

        The experiment has already yielded what I required in this thread. .. but how to give back?
        It's hard when those who watch, watch from walled gardens.
        Seemingly safe.
        But nothing was ever safe. So I go out bald into the world - shielded only by nakedness and find that .. death is not hard .. or even a thing to worry about.

        I like wild things.

        Sure we can leap from the relative to the absolute .. but the joy is in the leaping - not in the fence.

        My contact is in my profile - shall we go on?
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    Nov 27 2012: I really think any concern over toxicity is misplaced as the amount of silver used is so small compared to the area over which it is spread, it would hardly add to the background level of silver in the soil. And I'm intrigued by the connection to chemtrails as most of the stuff I have heard on that subject describes military style jets leaving chemtrails. If they were cloud seeding it seams a bit like cropdusting in an A320. Most cloud seeding that I'm aware of involves using perhaps a kilogram of silver iodide over 20odd sqare kilometres of ground.
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      Nov 27 2012: Hi Peter,

      The numbers reveal many thousands of tons of the material being used.
      I would point out that fractal systems are the most efficient method for concentration and dispersal of any particular medium. For instance, a tree uses fractal branching to maximise surface area for photosynthesis, and a river system concentrates the entire cachement towards the estury - or the water-supply dam, whichever is the case.

      All that aside, the issue may lie in the chaotic nature of weather itself. Chaos systems abound in fluid dynamics, and the signature property of a chaos sytem is its unpredicatability - even the rounding of numbers to any order of magnitute results in a deviation of predictions. This is otherwise known as "the butterfly effect" - be careful to not confuse that with the alarmist media image - it is a scientific principle of deviation, not multiplication - the "butterfly wing causing hurricanes" serves to illustrate outcomes within system dynamic ranges - e.g. weather can be dead-calm or hurricane strong.

      In my opinion, the real issue lies in the un-knowability of outcomes. That we are meddling with stuff that cannot be predicted seems somewhat cavaleer and irresponsible.
      I note also that the dynamic range of a system is determined by energy in that system.
      If cloud seeding has an impact on energy retention in the weather system, then that is one issue all by itself. The other issue might be the inadvertent desertification or flooding that may arise within the dynamic range with absolutely no way of predicting. Chaotic systems will spend time with attractors which mark dynamic extremes - the frequency by which they oscillate between the attractors will influence average outcomes which we percieve as flood, hurricane, drought, glaciation etc. What is of more concern is what statisticians refer to as "outliers" - these are extreme events that do not inflluence the average very much - and may exceed dynamic limits.
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        Nov 27 2012: I know thousands of tons sounds like a large amount but there have yet to be any findings that indicate cloud seeding results in nigher environmental silver levels.
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          Nov 27 2012: Hi Peter,

          THis depends on how and where the sample is taken.

          But it is al lnot so simple:

          Silver, of itself is not so toxic. It has anti-bacterial properties that are used in medicianal scenarios.

          Iodine is also beneficial in small amounts. In fact, I live in teh Tasman Geo Syncline which is devoid of naturally occuring Iodine - so a little more might be good. However, it will not, by itself reach any consumer of teh dam water - becasue the addition of flourided binds-out the iodine anyway.

          However, we are talking about silver iodide which has a very strong latticed molecule. I am not sure if environmental breakdown will prevent dam concentrations. Besides which, it is too early to take any such sample - the effects will take time as catchment flows reach the concentration point. This may take years to show up.

          Then there are other environmental pollutants which may interact - we have absolutely no idea what the result will be. I did observe 20,000 litres of hydaulic fluid go on its merry way to the dam from a crashed tanker-truck .. nice green colour.

          No one knows. No one can know.

          When you then add the process of genetic expression modifiers from exogenic/ environmental factors, it gets even more interesting. I bet none of this stuff has been tested for its affects in that regard - it's all just putting nosebags on cows. There is a ton of accumulated "junk" in our DNA which occurs in sets - when one gets turned-on, it tends to bring a few others with it - and a lot of this stuff was from ancient adaptive traits that are long since obsolete. It would be sad if a set got turned on which contains the adaptation to Cambrian atmosphere - anyone so affected would suffocate - but it would happen by accumulation - with the affect and apparent cause well removed beyond clear detection - just like autism. Just exactly like autism.

          It has been shown to happen - it can happen and we have no idea what we are doing.
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          Nov 27 2012: Oh .. forgot the other thing:

          Silver iodide works as a cloud seeding agent becasue it is a strong ion. Water moleculaes are an electro-static dipole. The silver iodide works by presenting a positive ion matrix against which teh water binds. Layers of water molecules build up in a lipid structure which is positively charged on the exterior (the process that is responsible for surface tension).

          INducing a stronger electrical potential by the use of silver iodide will increase the plasma state of rainclouds. The resulting electrostatic dynamic will be more powerful than the usual dust-formed raindrops. I predict more powerful lightening strikes.

          We had one such near here last night .. it was one hell of a thump .. usually these things go-off in the higher atmosphere and make a rumbling - this on ewas a thump - it put out power for a radius of 4 villages (about 10 kilometers).
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        Nov 27 2012: There are some US studies that cover over twenty years which still don't ring any alarm bells but you never know. As for the lightning, ground strikes may be unusual for Katoomba but at more tropical latitudes its a daily occurence. I like a good thunder storm. It's quite exciting seeing the bolt hit the ground close up. Just not too close.
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          Nov 27 2012: Hi Peter,

          Yes, I have a particular fondness for electrical storms. I just haven't seen them behave like this in my locality. Just got another one - a really big one. The ground strikes were being accompanied by plasma discharges inside my house. I've not experienced that before. Not here anyway. There is a place about 20 miles to the northwest where plasma activity has always been high - st elmo's fire and ball lilghtning . people's telephones exploding. But not here. If the cloud seeding is not increasing all this plasma activity, then it could be the recent CME from the sun .. although that one apparently didn't breach the magnetosphere.
          No conclusive evidence for any particular hypothesis. THe trend is however pretty much in line with increased energy correlating to more extreme outliers. Anything that increases the energy will show up somewhere - it all being a chaos system, we can't know where or how. But the assumption that people can keep adding more and more energy to the environment is doomed, one way or another.

          Do you have a link to the 20-year studies?
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    Nov 26 2012: I just found this much more detailed examination of the question.

    All this seems to be confirmable.
    Since this is clearly impacting more than my little bit of the planet - It seems worth a look for nearly everyone!

    I had no idea it was this extensive
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      Nov 26 2012: congratulations. you have just established yourself as a conspiracy theorist.
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        Nov 26 2012: Actually Kriztian, that site is dedicated to defusing conspiracy theorists.
        All the links are on teh record - despite the author's divulged personal stance, he has been at pains to publish teh evidence as he has found it.

        Congratulations - you have successfully established yourself as, at best - a vested interest, and at worst - a shallow armchair commentator.

        On second thoughts ... well, no I don't know what you are. And it seems silly to endulge in name calling. Perhaps some well supported arguement would help?
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        Nov 26 2012: Hi Kriztian,

        You are not alone. Often I find it difficult to not be affected by the delusions of others.
        I have observed that you have a great deal of substance to add to any discussion. Hopefully I can prompt you to add your insight with this issue.
        From what i see in the empirical material, weather-mod attempts have no more than around 10% success rates. I think that's important.
        Also, the material linked by Edward shows that we do have an issue with the affects of particulate effluent from industry - particularly coal fired power stations. Having lived in coal mining towns, I know that the nearby power stations were constrained to add electrostatic precipitators to reduce ash emissions, but that they often turned them off at night.
        So we have a fairly complex discussion on our hands:
        On the one hand, it seems like gross meddling in dynamics we understand little of.
        On the other hand, we have a need to offset accidental influences to restore humidity flows.
        But there is the new added dimension of the Co2 and global effects from it.
        I have observed that people rarely "go down the hole" to fully understand things - which results in the politicisation of any issue with a technical cause. The Gore Vs. Monkton circus comes to mind.
        I saw that politicisation at work when I was involved in fixing the Y2K computer bug - the tinfoil-hat-brigade were out in force at teh time - made me laugh, but the exploiters of the politics and allocation of budgets made me somewhat sick.
        A thing that also concerns me a bit is that the tinfoil-hat guys now claim that the global climate thing is a ruse. I already know how this works - they see only the politics (which certainly exist), but one must go look at teh actual scientific papers to really understand - scientific papers are very dry and un-sexy - there's no entertainment value in them, so they get conveniently pushed aside in favour of the drama.
        What are your thoughts?
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    Nov 24 2012: Hey Mitch. It's been a little while. I would be for it with undeniable good reasons, guarantees of small advances at a time, and an extensive amount of reference experimental data. Hopefully our nonconsultants keep common sense in mind, not so much profits.
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      Nov 25 2012: Definitely some advantages.
      But one has to ask "for whom?"
      For myself personally, I have been aware of the cloud seeding technology for a while, but was surprised to see it being deployed above my head.
      I noticed it by way of seeing that, for a few weeks, the sun seemed dimmed and teh air had a dark haze and uncharecteristic sense of humidity that did not show up on my hydrometer.
      I happen to enjoy blue skies and warming sunshine. I live in a semi wilderness area out of choice - at some expense. Seeing my blue skies and warm sunshine being systematically comprimised gave me a sense of resentment. My long term was being cancelled for the short term of others.
      Perhaps I should move to somewhere else.
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        Nov 28 2012: It's that bad over there!? My Mom actually brought the chemtrail thing to my attention, and with a pretty weak microscope could show me blue and red fibers in rainwater
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          Nov 28 2012: Hi Justin,

          It's seemingly local and the only official seeding is over the ski country 300 kilometers south. The winds are not right to support any over-blow.
          I'm not that concerned about silver iodide .. well no more than any other industrial polutant .. hey, what's another poison? It's a doddle next to what is coming out of our chickens these days.
          At first i dismissed the chemtrails thing .. mostly it just attracted schizophrenics. But it has been shown to have that nucleus of truth.
          And being a crotchetty old coot, I like complaining if anything gets changed.
          However, I did take close notice of what is happening with public awareness. A pattern emerges. I pondered about the conspiracy thing - how it has grown to be an industry.
          At first I was vehemntly against anyone who spouted such nonsense - specially "chemtrails". I was so strident about it that I was being blamed for being an "Illuminati" . LOL!
          Since I did know that some of the conspiracy stuff was true (economic collapse) I hypothesised that all the tinfoil-hat stuff was a public campaign to sow red-herrings.
          I said "How do you get "the cat" back in "the bag"? - you throw a bunch of fake cats around the place, then when they are found to be fake, the real one will be assumed to be fake also - and you quietly slip it back in the bag."
          But now I am seeing that many of these fake cats are real cats wrapped in feaux fur .. which would conform more with fashion.
          I don't believe that cloud seeding is some atttempt to execute a eugenics program, that would be more effectively done by .. hmmm chicken? LOL! No, there is no need for that either.
          Most things happen by accident - both our great advances and our terrible mistakes, humans are so vain they think they are responsible for everything. We are, however good at adapting - but only if we allow our perceptions to come back to planet Earth. The truth was never sexy.
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    Nov 23 2012: as lincoln allegedly said: three can keep a secret if two are dead. the government often claims to do something when it in fact does not. it rarely accomplishes something in secret.

    here, a local government uses cloud-seeding to protect grape plantations from hailstorms. in china, they increase precipitation in otherwise dry areas. these might be dangerous practices, but this is civilization. we tweak the environment for our benefit.
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      Nov 24 2012: Off topic.

      The debate is about the pros and cons of cloud seeding - not the issue of government secrecy.

      Please try again.
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        Nov 24 2012: i don't care about your intent, i'm not a mind reader. i replied to your statements. i see not a single word about any pros and cons there. next time you try to talk about what you want to talk about. but if you set your attitude aside, you might realize that i listed two cons, and presented a reasoning about possible dangers. so please try again
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          Nov 24 2012: Granted.

          I really am curious about the for and against (pros and cons). And I appreciate your contribution.
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      Nov 24 2012: @Krisztian:

      "we tweak the environment for our benefit."

      Therein lies the very root of our problems.
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        Nov 24 2012: i would say agriculture helped some, for one
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          Nov 24 2012: There's a great deal of difference between tweaking the environment on a local scale and tweaking it globally.

          Mitch's debate is about cloud seeding. Cloud seeding in my opinion is a dangerous form of global 'environmental tweaking'. Siver Iodide is known to be toxic to humans, fish and animals. Also, seeding clouds in one area is bound to cause precipitation deficits downwind in other countries who may also be reliant on that rainfall.

          I'm therefore against cloud seeding for this, and many other reasons.

          What would be your reasons for being in favour?
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        Nov 24 2012: agriculture is hardly "local scale" anymore. it also has its serious effects on nature. but we need to eat, so... same thing for cloud seeding. one needs to scientifically analyze the possible harms. silver might be a toxin, but one needs to examine whether it accumulates at certain locations to cause actual harm to animals or humans. you can not just dismiss it because it is toxic. we got our brains for a reason. we ought to use it to our advantage the best we can, including altering our environment, with care of course.
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          Nov 24 2012: The toxicity of silver iodide, coupled to the indiscriminate nature of the rainfall that occurs as a result of cloud seeding, means that distribution of toxic rainfall might also be as indiscriminate, and do environmental harm.

          Therefore, anything toxic to life needs appropriate containment and control, and must not be attached to anything as randomised as rainfall.
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        Nov 24 2012: might? we need better than that.
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          Nov 24 2012: Might = a word used where there is doubt.

          I was talking about the indiscriminate nature of rainfall, which as you know, is driven by the vagaries of global weather systems (hence 'might'). Such rainfall might or might not fall on environments sensitive to the toxins it contains. I am 100% against taking such risks.

          By the way, you said silver iodide 'might' be a toxin.

          Would you like to change that to IS a toxin?
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        Nov 25 2012: my "might" was a grammatical construct, i did not question the toxicity of silver compounds. my point is that this is not enough, there are many factors to take into consideration. this is the same debate as mercury in vaccines. surely, mercury is a poison. but in that amount, it does no harm. certainly, i would avoid using mercury if i have an alternative. but we need to be realistic.
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          Nov 25 2012: Ok I take your point about the grammatical construct. My point is that I'm reluctant to accept the wisdom of blundering into something that runs the risk of causing irreversible damage to human life and ecosystems.

          The mercury preservative in Thimerosal may not do immediate harm, but mercury is cumulative in the body and can only be removed by chelating compounds.

          Heavy metals (like silver) also are cumulative in the bodies of other animals including those we consume, and clearly it would be impossible to chelate such toxins out of the bodies of fish, for instance, before we eat them.

          In summary, it is the cumulative effects of these metals that causes me concern. Cloud seeding with silver may not be a problem now, but in significant accumulations in the future, it will be.