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Mitch SMith

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The case for cloud-seeding

It is quite evident that most states in the world now conduct cloud seeding.

Cloud seeding is not all that new, in my youth it was common in the apple growing districts to shoot skyrockets above possible hail formations to disrupt the coalsecence of hail stones and reduce their impact on the crops. I believe the active chemical used was silver nitrate.

The more common chemical seen in modern cloud seeding is silver iodide. This nucleates rain drops which then gather electrostatically into cloud.

You will recognise them for their whispy-feathery appearance, which may or may not form into rain clouds - depending on the ambient humidity.

The presence of cloud seeding was first noticed by conspiracy theorists as "chemtrails", agianst which no official refutation was poffered - because no public agreement was sought for the practice.

I can think of some good reasons for cloud seeding - wildfire mittigation, cachement optimisation (water-supply dams) or even mittigation of global warming.

We don't know the justifications because we were not consulted. And the debate was never undertaken.

Let's have the debate now.

To kick it off, i will opose the practice and state as my opening arguement that: cloud seeding is vandalism of the sky.

Please state and argue your case:

For and against.

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    Nov 27 2012: I really think any concern over toxicity is misplaced as the amount of silver used is so small compared to the area over which it is spread, it would hardly add to the background level of silver in the soil. And I'm intrigued by the connection to chemtrails as most of the stuff I have heard on that subject describes military style jets leaving chemtrails. If they were cloud seeding it seams a bit like cropdusting in an A320. Most cloud seeding that I'm aware of involves using perhaps a kilogram of silver iodide over 20odd sqare kilometres of ground.
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      Nov 27 2012: Hi Peter,

      The numbers reveal many thousands of tons of the material being used.
      I would point out that fractal systems are the most efficient method for concentration and dispersal of any particular medium. For instance, a tree uses fractal branching to maximise surface area for photosynthesis, and a river system concentrates the entire cachement towards the estury - or the water-supply dam, whichever is the case.

      All that aside, the issue may lie in the chaotic nature of weather itself. Chaos systems abound in fluid dynamics, and the signature property of a chaos sytem is its unpredicatability - even the rounding of numbers to any order of magnitute results in a deviation of predictions. This is otherwise known as "the butterfly effect" - be careful to not confuse that with the alarmist media image - it is a scientific principle of deviation, not multiplication - the "butterfly wing causing hurricanes" serves to illustrate outcomes within system dynamic ranges - e.g. weather can be dead-calm or hurricane strong.

      In my opinion, the real issue lies in the un-knowability of outcomes. That we are meddling with stuff that cannot be predicted seems somewhat cavaleer and irresponsible.
      I note also that the dynamic range of a system is determined by energy in that system.
      If cloud seeding has an impact on energy retention in the weather system, then that is one issue all by itself. The other issue might be the inadvertent desertification or flooding that may arise within the dynamic range with absolutely no way of predicting. Chaotic systems will spend time with attractors which mark dynamic extremes - the frequency by which they oscillate between the attractors will influence average outcomes which we percieve as flood, hurricane, drought, glaciation etc. What is of more concern is what statisticians refer to as "outliers" - these are extreme events that do not inflluence the average very much - and may exceed dynamic limits.
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        Nov 27 2012: I know thousands of tons sounds like a large amount but there have yet to be any findings that indicate cloud seeding results in nigher environmental silver levels.
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          Nov 27 2012: Hi Peter,

          THis depends on how and where the sample is taken.

          But it is al lnot so simple:

          Silver, of itself is not so toxic. It has anti-bacterial properties that are used in medicianal scenarios.

          Iodine is also beneficial in small amounts. In fact, I live in teh Tasman Geo Syncline which is devoid of naturally occuring Iodine - so a little more might be good. However, it will not, by itself reach any consumer of teh dam water - becasue the addition of flourided binds-out the iodine anyway.

          However, we are talking about silver iodide which has a very strong latticed molecule. I am not sure if environmental breakdown will prevent dam concentrations. Besides which, it is too early to take any such sample - the effects will take time as catchment flows reach the concentration point. This may take years to show up.

          Then there are other environmental pollutants which may interact - we have absolutely no idea what the result will be. I did observe 20,000 litres of hydaulic fluid go on its merry way to the dam from a crashed tanker-truck .. nice green colour.

          No one knows. No one can know.

          When you then add the process of genetic expression modifiers from exogenic/ environmental factors, it gets even more interesting. I bet none of this stuff has been tested for its affects in that regard - it's all just putting nosebags on cows. There is a ton of accumulated "junk" in our DNA which occurs in sets - when one gets turned-on, it tends to bring a few others with it - and a lot of this stuff was from ancient adaptive traits that are long since obsolete. It would be sad if a set got turned on which contains the adaptation to Cambrian atmosphere - anyone so affected would suffocate - but it would happen by accumulation - with the affect and apparent cause well removed beyond clear detection - just like autism. Just exactly like autism.

          It has been shown to happen - it can happen and we have no idea what we are doing.
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          Nov 27 2012: Oh .. forgot the other thing:

          Silver iodide works as a cloud seeding agent becasue it is a strong ion. Water moleculaes are an electro-static dipole. The silver iodide works by presenting a positive ion matrix against which teh water binds. Layers of water molecules build up in a lipid structure which is positively charged on the exterior (the process that is responsible for surface tension).

          INducing a stronger electrical potential by the use of silver iodide will increase the plasma state of rainclouds. The resulting electrostatic dynamic will be more powerful than the usual dust-formed raindrops. I predict more powerful lightening strikes.

          We had one such near here last night .. it was one hell of a thump .. usually these things go-off in the higher atmosphere and make a rumbling - this on ewas a thump - it put out power for a radius of 4 villages (about 10 kilometers).
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        Nov 27 2012: There are some US studies that cover over twenty years which still don't ring any alarm bells but you never know. As for the lightning, ground strikes may be unusual for Katoomba but at more tropical latitudes its a daily occurence. I like a good thunder storm. It's quite exciting seeing the bolt hit the ground close up. Just not too close.
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          Nov 27 2012: Hi Peter,

          Yes, I have a particular fondness for electrical storms. I just haven't seen them behave like this in my locality. Just got another one - a really big one. The ground strikes were being accompanied by plasma discharges inside my house. I've not experienced that before. Not here anyway. There is a place about 20 miles to the northwest where plasma activity has always been high - st elmo's fire and ball lilghtning . people's telephones exploding. But not here. If the cloud seeding is not increasing all this plasma activity, then it could be the recent CME from the sun .. although that one apparently didn't breach the magnetosphere.
          No conclusive evidence for any particular hypothesis. THe trend is however pretty much in line with increased energy correlating to more extreme outliers. Anything that increases the energy will show up somewhere - it all being a chaos system, we can't know where or how. But the assumption that people can keep adding more and more energy to the environment is doomed, one way or another.

          Do you have a link to the 20-year studies?

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