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The case for cloud-seeding
It is quite evident that most states in the world now conduct cloud seeding.
Cloud seeding is not all that new, in my youth it was common in the apple growing districts to shoot skyrockets above possible hail formations to disrupt the coalsecence of hail stones and reduce their impact on the crops. I believe the active chemical used was silver nitrate.
The more common chemical seen in modern cloud seeding is silver iodide. This nucleates rain drops which then gather electrostatically into cloud.
You will recognise them for their whispy-feathery appearance, which may or may not form into rain clouds - depending on the ambient humidity.
The presence of cloud seeding was first noticed by conspiracy theorists as "chemtrails", agianst which no official refutation was poffered - because no public agreement was sought for the practice.
I can think of some good reasons for cloud seeding - wildfire mittigation, cachement optimisation (water-supply dams) or even mittigation of global warming.
We don't know the justifications because we were not consulted. And the debate was never undertaken.
Let's have the debate now.
To kick it off, i will opose the practice and state as my opening arguement that: cloud seeding is vandalism of the sky.
Please state and argue your case:
For and against.
Henry Woeltjen 10+
You manipulate variable X on the timeline...it may turn out to be a huge impact in the future. Our changes scale with time. If it scales enough...you may create a hurricane from one extra mass of clouds.
I think Mitch has it right. We cannot go around making changes until we at least consider the possible long-term impacts. We also need to understand that we may not know the possible impacts. Therefore, we cannot even gauge the risk properly.
We know our universe is cause and effect.
So we change a column of data (ABXABXABX) TO (ABXABXABXG).
We have now created a new "law" in the universe. Think of the blue sky before the cloud.
(blue sky) Then after the cloud (blue sky + cloud).
We would obviously consider the type of cloud and the possible future states of the cloud. However, the main problem here is that we now changed things.
As space 1 with (ABXABXABX) would have operated as an empty space...it now operates as a space with clouds in it. This will in turn change the way that space reacts to everything else. As the cloud moves it changes the potential state of each space equally. If the cloud merges with another cloud or meets other weather systems it adds information that would have never been present before.
(New Cloud) + (Space 5555555 (Inserted cloud)) instead of (Space 5555555(empty)).
Mitch SMith 50+
it has been observed that clouds are formed by electro-static forces.
The water dropets nucleate around a positively charged particle and form a lipid plasma with a greater positive potential at the surface. The concentration of negative charge around the nucleus attracts other dropets which approach to balance with the more distributed positive charge at which point they stop converging - this is why a cloud is not a single blob of water.
Electrical discharges alter the attraction/repulsion balance and allow for larger dropets to form enough to precipitate aas rain.
Artificially seeding clouds increases the electrical potentials - they may not come to precipitate, but they will raise the atmospheric plasma potentials. I suspect that most of what we take for "UFOs" are no more than plasma phenomena. I also suspect that the earth's electromagnetic relationship with the sun and solar system is being altered in unpredictable ways.
Chaos mathematics gives us some understanding of teh dynamic range a system is capable of - but that implies understanding of teh energy available to the system. If it becomes entangled in a wider system, the energy potentials are unknowable.
In other words; whilever we are simply manipulating local systems(atmosphere), the risk is measurable within a range, but if potentials attract participation in wider systems, one has to fully comprehend the risk potentials there - and we don't. It might be argued that there is an infinite continuum of wider systems - which implies that we will never know.
So that brings us to the nature of "agency". I argue that my responsibility for what i do(agency) is to keep the effects of my acts to impact me and me alone - and that if my acts impinge the conditions of others, then it must be done with negotiated consent - to do otherwise is a violation.
Vandalising my sky is a violation - and it is not just a cosmetic violation.
Barry Palmer 50+
IMO, you, Mitch, nailed it with this:
"In my opinion, the real issue lies in the un-knowability of outcomes. That we are meddling with stuff that cannot be predicted seems somewhat cavaleer and irresponsible."
I call this attitude childish. At one time in human history the use of new technologies with little concern for unintended consequences was natural and the results were generally positive. We now can clearly see the evidence of our mistakes. People often use the automobile to justify this cavaleer behavior, by asking if we should ban automobiles and go back to the days of the horse and buggy. The automobile is an excellent example for taking a more responsible attitude toward new technologies. It is completely obvious that we could have saved many lives by making automobiles more safe from the beginning. The pollution from automobiles might have been foreseen and mitigated, and many cases of various lung diseases might have been avoided.
Employing new technologies without understanding the full effects is irresponsible, and irresponsibility is childish. In the case of cloud seeding, the full effects are unknowable no matter what research we do.
Perhaps it is too much to expect that the human race will ever mature.
Mitch SMith 50+
I am reminded of teh story of the doomsday prediction in the 1800's where the malthusian effects of the population growth in New York city would lead to horse manure 6 feet deep in the streets.
This is quotaed often in support of Henry Ford's production-line breakthrough that replaced the horse with the internal combustion automobile.
They use this arguement as progress against Malthus.
However, can you imagine the value of 6 foot of horse manure - enough to cover long island?
Who would have any need for nitrogen fertiliser?
Can you imagine the number of jobs created in collecting, processing and distributing all that natural humus?
Can you imagine the quality of the produce enhanced by that fantastic resource? All of it cerified organic?
The promethians still use their half-considered arguement for brute force against the planet.
But then .. think of all the methane.
Never worry - we are getting the methane now, and our children have not learned how to live with our brothers the horses.
THere is no going back. We pay now or pay tomorrow with interest.
When the interest bill exceeds our value - we no longer have value, and the conservation of entropy will collapse the envelope we call "self" - i.e. us.
It is not the bankers, it is not the politicians, it is not the corporations it is not the illuminati - it is us.
In our petulant insistence of false comfort and unreasonable convenience, we have cancelled our own account with the universe. The knocking on our door - it's the debt collector and he is not a man.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
You know, I see all the juvenile arguements about capitalism and socialism.
The truth is that all value is current - it's what we eat - it is what we all need to stay alive. There is no other value.
If you want a library - get together with your neighbors and start one.
If you want a hospital. Learn the skills of nursing, midwivery, folk remedy and subvert doctors to become humans and do their work for produce or the love of it.
There is no government - haven't you noticed that?
There are a series of warlords.
Walk away from them and just let community re-form - it does it all by itself - we are wired to produce it simply by being human - it needs no enforcement, it needs no government.
Be suspect of the seed of the tower: hierarchy.
We were sold the lie that the many labour so the few can lead and this is civillisation. This is a lie.
What we call civillisation is the opposite - it is barbarism.
The religions are perverted to seed our ruin through the heavenly father who does not exist.
There is a heavenly love - it is nothing like a father or ruler. It is the principle which nurtures and permits - there is no rod there is no staff - it was all a lie.
And the tower is set to fall - this is a cause for great cellebration - all who resist will be swept away.
So polute my skies radiate my waters, make weapons to destroy the world a thousand times over - this gives me great joy - the final suicide of perversion. Bring it on and bring it on soon.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
I acknowledge your that your comment is very relevant to this Mitch’s debate. Ted debates, like this maybe too complex to help give legs to the ideas that need to raise the hope of souls like you. That being said, Ted is here with great awareness and caring. Every little push we make moves the problem into the integrating pre-frontal cortex of the world. Ted is the organization that keeps lots of space for the heroic story tellers. Some create the stories that others may act out. You are acting properly Elizabeth.
But, because Mitch Smith, is filled with the “higher conscious wisdom” I believe the thin edges our structured information, can move the mountain, to where it can be understood by all. Hopefully Ted will find this tiny aside, OK.
A very recent CBC interview which Mitch highlighted is also very useful to encourage Governance.
Yes I believe, that Mitch’s argument is needed to be heard and elevated to where world wide governance takes the responsibility for caring about the dramatic dangerous changes we see.
As an old timer like me, we have in memory, a time line of almost 80 years of well organized information to prove who the perpetrators of the crimes are.
For help in your family journey to the art of liberating the soul, start the private conversation with an email to me.
A statement:
“This successful journey of individuals will swell the crowd to victory over man made injustice.”
There is nothing childish about this statement.
To the Power of Love for you
Don.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
Sometimes fact creates fiction.
Sometimes fiction creates fact.
Sometimes it's just an acurate reading of causality.
Either way, the technologies we base our world on are fragile - and they become more fragile as each new layer is added. It's all part of the tower.
The last rally big CME fried most of teh telegraph infrastructure in the USA in the 1890's - set telegraph poles on fire etc. I heard that about 100 telegraph poles caught fire in Texas last week - and there were no significant CMEs.
Satelites are shut-down at high risk times - but it's no protection against a big CME.
Wormholes .. hmm as I understand it, time and space lines are universal - you can compress them with big masses or high relative velocities but you can't make them cross-over. And why would you want to? Are you not satisfied with your own time and space?
Perhaps you can astral-project there - if entropy conducts information, there might be a way. But as far as i can tell, the membranes don't like that sort of thing .. I'll have a think on it. Have a look at Rupert Sheldrake - he's also a magnificent nutter, but has some interesting research on strange "clairvoyance" in animals and humans - with some remarkable data on the "sombody is watching me" phenomenon which cannot be explained by normal causality.
The point I was making is that the Earth is getting more at risk through the ionic changes we are making to the atmosphere - plus the magnetosphere is weakening (it is the thing that deflects this stuff). It's a bit like begging for trouble - or as we said in my home town "cruisin' for a bruisin'".
Interesting times indeed!
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
They are not frozen into our ways and can adapt.
The way forward is to let them get on with it.
I also wish you and your familiy the best.
Each moment is a lifetime - don't miss it ;)
Don Wesley 50+
I missed seeing you for some time, because I just returned from the Mountain of ASC.
How interesting it is to see this honey-bee-nest you are hanging out on this Ted branch
I couldn’t resist taking in tongue full of honey drippings.
I accuse you of being a tempter; because this is a case for the Ultimate Court of Justice.
Here on earth there is no Prosecutor who can bring your story
into such a Court, here on earth. Maybe soon but not now.
You are hoping to lead us into the unknowable mind of the Great Architect above.
Having some insight into the higher plains of the higher-self of you,
my precious friend, your intentions are to create that Court here on Earth.
I share that hope with you!
The common features of your precious way of “conscious” super-thinking,
includes “altered states of consciousness.” (ASC)
I would also say you have experienced COBE and know the peaceful transformation
to liberty of thing it brings to us. COBE meaning “conscious out of body experience.”
I was puzzled by the vocabulary you have been using in past conversations,
so I went to the mountain to get an education I needed.
Now, I can understand your talk about how the brain, mind and spirit works.
As an old man, I have more to learn and can enjoy the honey
while avoiding the mind traps everywhere.
I would say that you just came “out of your house”
to play in the minds of those who would come to visit in your garden; an ASC garden.
http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_saunders_why_bother_leaving_the_house.html
We can overcome suffering with simple justice;
but most will say that is childish to think so simply.
We play into the chaos of logical debate. Science is quantum now!
I will conclude by saying that I do agree with your position
in this fairy tale story of justice;
it is even more evil than Vandalism.
Science without “quantum” cannot determine
the “wrongness with reason” to this Idea you have opened as a debate.
Mitch, To the Power of Love,
Mathematically,
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
All journeys are a single step and then another ..
Each one a new vista. That is the key to my temptation - the view.
The view was there before me, in one step it was mine, and in tempting it is no longer mine - it's ours.
There's joy in that.
If these steps lead us into a higher court, then we enter it together.
That which can be of the eath shold be of the earth - let it be cleaned away lest what is of heaven is obscured - gold mistaken for mud, and mud mistaken for gold.
All I know for sure is that it offends me that my sky is written upon by strangers.
I can do no more than ask - is there justice in that?
And along the way, perhaps it can be revealed:the work of shovels that do not discern between heaven and earth. When judgement comes from a pure place, there will be no mistaking it.
And also along the way, there can be no failure to listen closely and enjoy the dancing with fellow travellers to the beat of the dancing itself - because that is the way.
It might be narrow and beset by brambles - but the feet that tread it do so in celebration.
Justice truly is the balance - we do our best to know what is on each side of the scale, but in truth, there is only one who knows for sure.
Love also to you Don.
Don Wesley 50+
You have delivered another of your “higher conscious wisdom”.
Thank you
Keep me refreshed.
To the Power of Electric Love.
Don
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
Agriculture relies on closed systems - anything outside the fence is regarded as a wolf.
This attitude is the cause of the destruction of our environment - I am very certain about the role formula of agriculture - it was a significant wrong-turn in our history and seems to correlate with teh Younger Dryad ice-age.
The only place for eagles is away from farms - there is nothing there for them.
C13th was the short warming period in the norhern hemisphere, crops grew better, competition relaxed a bit and there was a little more time for leisure until population growth consumed the excess.
A didgeridoo does not cause hypoxea if played properly .. it's a drone the same as found in all the different types of bagpipe - one needs a drone to play pure harmony. Modern orchestras do not play pure harmony - they play tempered brute-force scales which ignore harmony. The didgeridoo is a cultural part of the corroboree - a holistic community expression where the drone sets reference for common expression. A form of ritual magic. What westerners call music these days is not music - it is commerce - and uses the entertainment-adiction vector. It's all drugs.
The canals of mars were. most likely, created by plasma discharges - really-big-lightning. You can see that very few of them drain like a river system does.
Have a look at these guys: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThunderboltsProject
They are nuts, but they have some empirical observations to offer.
We have now learned from Voyager that the solar system is plasma-connected with the galaxy. We already know that the Earth is plasma-connected with the Sun and other solar system objects(magnetic footprint). This creates a universal webwork of filaments which can transmit enormous amounts of energy at unpredictable times.
Words are pre-packaged perceptions - they are things of the autobiographical self. They short-circuit the senses and must be treated with caution.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
We are way off topic, but the exploration is valuable.
The call and answer .. I like the Waulking songs.. the shanties and the tunes that capture the waves at teh shore.
The children are young and will create a new language, as they always have done. They must do it to exlude the influence of old words that apply to an old world in decline.
The old sift and sort old words in hope that one day they will be asked.
Some words are timeless, the children will discover them, just as we did - either from your mouth, or mine, or another - or they will discover them in their own mouths.
A computer is a tool. A fragment. It will become the limb of a self - that self might be human, but need not be so. But there is a problem:
Most my life, I was able to push my awarenes into musical instruments, machines and circuits - feel them like my own hand, my own eyes. This is not remarkable - we now know that we can map anything in our brains. But I have observed as computers have thrown up barriers and no longer admit us - we are allowed "apps" which are small transient windows, and we no longer control them. They are now at the behest of the new priesthood - super-scribes who's craft is impenetrable. At one time - i was one. But now, there is no single human who knows what goes on in a computer. Another course of high stones in the rickety tower.
As for the world - I can smell it, I can feel it. And today, my wife learned how to tune a cheap AM radio to the gap between stations and use it to detect teh apalling amount of RF radiation coming from everything in our house and beyond. We are in a murky mud of radiation - and keep that damn cell phone away from your head - that's microwaves - the end-point of entropy - and it will take you down with it. I knew this when I was working for telcos - watched the cancers develop in friends.
http://www.ted.com/talks/douglas_adams_parrots_the_universe_and_everything.html
The yellow-river dolphins.
(contd.)
Mitch SMith 50+
So we respond as wolves in farmers' clothing and tend that corner of teh farm over shadowed in weed and woods - the places where the sheep and the dogs fear to go.
Let us set skulls on sticks about this place, paint our faces in wode and learn the arts of invisibility.
The sea life .. yes, but the acidity will ensure that most those species remain undiscovered. And then, there is the life below the sea and below the land - it is more biomass than that above. did you know that? and did you know that that is already invaded - by the synthetic bacteria designed to extract oil - look at craig venters shamefully dishonest anouncement here on TED - he has driven the mass extinction to those places below, and we will have to live with the methane now.
When you add that unanounced consequence with the altered ionic balance .. the next flood will not be water.
The genes ensure nothing - don't fall to that trap. The genes only define risks - the choices we make in life determine if those risks fall on us. The device of adiction is the combination of dopamine with PosB. There are genetic variances of susceptibility to this vector, but for myself I will be looking at the extension of proto-self regulators into the autobiographical-self matrix - I believe it is there that excessive behaviour will be found along with erroneous world-views - not in the genes.
Babies are beign exposed to a lot of RF in the womb - the pineal cannot tell the difference between naturakl light and radio frequencies and this affectst eh production of melatonin - which is the primary agent for neutralising free radicals created by cell division .. free radicals damage DNA. They also come from cooked things and poorly manufactured plastics. It is a wonderful thing that any life still survives - but there you go, the power of adaptation is truly impressive.
Google Helen Caldicot - we have other things to think on.
Thunder Tang
Mitch SMith 50+
Yes - putting sulphates up above teh ionosphere would definitely stop global warming.
I assume that is already being done.
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_keith_s_surprising_ideas_on_climate_change.html
(I missed this link - seems the topic is far from new - what is odd is that the public/political discussion has still not happened - and here we are 5 years later than the TED talk that brought it up.)
What is interesting in that link is that anyone with a high power microwave emmitter could use photophresis to loft a bunch of epsom salts up over he ionosphere and cause an ice age.
Very low cost - total world domination.
I expect that is already prepared in some parts of teh world - it would be a political necessity - just like the MAD policy with nukes.
It has still not been passed to the community for discussion.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
There is nothing smaller than a subatomic particle because anything that inflects its entropic field would produce infinite entropic potential (gradient goes vertical = division by zero) - and the universe does not venture beyond a singularity.
This is in accordance with entropic waves - each wave contains a self within the negentropic envelope and a field of super-entropy defining the balance against universal entropy. The gradient of universal entropy is made steeper whwn you look at teh line from peak to trough. That line represents a gradient which is greater than the universal entropic gradient - an area of greater potential - which is a perfect environment for another self to form-up. So you get a bunch of new smaller selves riding on the increased potential of teh larger self. As you might see, these smaller selves also give rise to steeper gradients - and will spawn more sub-entities - with even steeper potentials - and so on til you get a near-vertical line - a subatomic particle.
LOL! one can postulate the big wave at the top of this process - it might not even have a gradient - it might be the first gradient - the origin of all potential .. perhaps you could name it "god" .. but such tokens only appy to one's own scale .. and it is pointless to name it anything beyond "universe".
So what is happening with geoengineering(cloud seeding) is that a certain class/scale of entropic entities is trying to flatline the super entropic field surrounding it (risk deferral) by manipulating the potentials of teh wider self on which they depend (the earth). The Earth might have other ideas.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
TED stands for technology, entertainment and design.
Being a practitioner of all these, I am happy to be here - but I'm not fooled.
These are the vectors of agendas.
Within the entropic ripple created by TED, it is not just the speakers who get to feast at teh gradient - I know a stage when I see one ;)
The administrators are careful that the posters do not add flavour - at least, nothing beyond the official morsels in the talks - they have agendas to protect.
Every rule creates winners, losers and cheats - winning and losiing is boring - have fun instead.
In the agrarian model of humanity there are only 4 roles to ply:
Farmer, Sheep, Sheepdog and Wolf - only one is human, and only one lies beyond the fence. The fence is an entropic membrane - a closed one.
My mob are from Glasgow - Leaches and Smithies all, then there's the Irish and teh Romany midwives - all mixed together in the docklands east end of London - pearly kings.
I did all the metaphysics stuff - but the language is broken and new words must be made.
Entropy is un-sullied - and all it means is a transition from coherence to homogeneity.
True - pattermning is seen everywhere, but these are the ripples of negentropy - teh background radiation tells the story.
And you can observe it - my thesis consists entirely of the obvious.
You eat and extrete - what comes out of you is de-structured compared to what goes in.
I started on this while examining the obvious system of survival = stimulus/reaction where the reaction maintains the ability for stimulus. So it makes a loop .. and I ask myself - a loop in what? Well .. it's energy .. but where does the energy come from? Well, it comes from some kind of storage .. and how does it get stored .. mostly from other living things - plus a bit of salt from teh earth. But is the earth not living? Let's assume that it is. Here is assumption 1 - let's test it by and by.
(contd.)
Mitch SMith 50+
That's not a criticism - there are times for such things, and in Scotland, that was most of the time ;)
Anyway - the entropy thing is an exercise in extrapolating the bleedin' obvious - assuming that everything is obvious and there are not a lot of rules in a universe.
Have a look at Wolfram - his cellular autonoma are very much like what i call "shapes" - they are very simple but can generate any amount of complexity so long as they get energy. .. so what if the shape IS energy? That would make things quite a lot simpler - and I feel that the truth of the universe is far too simple to convey in words - so i use models.
My basic model is a sloping line (entropy) with a sine-wave modulating it in one single cycle - I call that "self" - it is a standing wave maintained by the loop. And I nicked the idea of "conservation" from Newton - otherwise a self would be just a hump on the entropic slope - all sine waves go above and below the zero reference - so if an observable self is teh lumpy thing we see - then it must have a dip around it which we don't see. But we do see things in that dip - other selves. I propose that where the hump ends and teh dip begins is a thing we call "skin". So I go looking round for anything that might be remotely described as a self - and they all have some kind of skin - and they are all surrounded by other selves - smaller ones consuming the exreta of the larger one.
It works in physical space and it works in meta-space.
I'm still evolving eh description of meta space - potential agency is the energy of meta-space. Potential - any graph that has the X axis as time is about potential. So now we start to get a handle on time. SO I assert that all potential arises in entropy.
This absolutely destroys world-views - and that is my jehad - it's time for all world views to fall - they are clogged up with the lies and wrong turns of history.
(contd.)
Mitch SMith 50+
So I describe healthy community where I can and spend time with healthy communities when I can - I make pennywhistles because when one has no road left but the narrow one beset by brambles, it's nice to have a tune.
But that is a bit glib - the pennywhistle is humble - but it is cheap and easy to play - and it makes music from the breath and teh hands - it bypasses the world view - and makes a path directly from what we call the "heart" to the world of our life. One cannot pick up a pennywhistle, with the serious intent to play, without starting on a journey of purification.
I call it "the way of teh tin leprechaun" - and it is a doorway to heaven - it leads one into the company of other pure hearts. I can't describe it properly - you just have to do it and observe - it is real magic - similar to the mandrake, but without the violation - reality changes. So .. one gets curious, and this leads to the physics of self - I am certain that the autobiographical self in humans is critically ill - it is suposed to be a tool, but has become identity - and god.
There will certainly be black rain in Aberdeen - but the darkness falling on the north is invisible - and it comes from Japan, not Scotland. Perhaps Aberdeen will get some volcanic matter when iceland goes off. All that mass-loss in greenland will affect the tectonic plates - and the atlantic rift has been strangely quiet - as has the sun.
With the ionic balance of sea land and air beign altered, all manner of strange things happen in the plasma behaviour - things start getting more combustible (flame being a plasma). Being so close to the skin of teh Earth, the behaviour of the Earths wider super-entropic field (the magnetosphere) weakens - and the old man Ra has paused to think about his child. Ra has a bright finger - that's not water erosion on Mars ;)
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
current energy state(entropy gradient)-->senses-->perception-->potential agency-->decision-->agency-->changed energy state(inflected entropy gradient) --> repeat loop until collapse. Everything between perception and agency(inclusive) is the self - it can have any number of arcane levels but has survival at its root.
The potential agency bit is divided into 2 parts - potential advantage and potential disadvantage. If teh self chooses disadvantage, the negentropic inflection which houses it will collapse - so it has to choose the advantage. Potential advantage can have a lot of stuff in it - evolution does not care - it's survival of teh fittest, so all advantage qualifies. However, if the highest advantage(supremacy) is always chosen, then the tower of Babel starts building up to its ultimate fall. In humans it is a little more complex - because the field pf potential agency is not just divided into advantage/disadvantage - it is also divided into individual and community - thus one can choose a potential action that is advantageous to the person, but disadvantage to teh community - this is called sin. If one chooses potential actions that are advantage to both self and community it is called morality, if one chooses action that is disadvantage to self and advantage to communty, it is called martyrdom. If on habitually chooses sin, the benefit of community is destroyed - it's ripple collapses - and the individual with it. Evil is where the individual brings the community to the brink of collapse and keeps it there - this also initiates the tower of Babel.
Existential life is, indeed chaos, but chaos is not disorder - chaos creates the filaments of existence - like curls of smoke - the arabesque of the fields of super-entropy surrounding the selves of negentropy which are created by the existential loop which ripples in entropy.
Mitch SMith 50+
The conspiracy bit:
Communities can be no larger than about 200 individuals - we simply don't have the cranium-space to accomodate more. So when you get 7 billion people it is really just an agregation of communities.
So the communities try to maintain their coherence by having a ruling class. In the democratic model, the ruling class is "elected" to "represent" the collective - which never actually happens. THe instant any group becomes defined by a membrane of closure - it becomes a self and will cycle acording to the existential loop in the interest of its own survival. Since it is a meta-self, it has no connection with the physical biosphere and does not see it. These artificial community selves then begin to harvest the entropic potential from teh "citizens" they become evil by the definition stated above.
So, it was asked elsewhere "where do conspiracies come from" they come from communities that get too large. This spawns meta selves that act as parasites on humans. There is no formal cabal - it just happens. They give themselves names and flags later to fortify and close teh membrane surrounding them.
The membrane is very important - it must be porous - if it is hermetic, it will close the system resulting in exponential tensions around the membrane. The trick is to have a membrane which is restrictive enough to inflect the entropic gradient into negentropy - and not so closed that it isolates from it's own super-entropic field. That field will flatline - at the point it flatlines, the entropic gradient supporting the negentropic envelope collapses. You can tell when this is about to happen because the negentropic envelope becomes very narrow and higher - a tower. When it collapses .. it does not tumble-down - it simply becomes infinitely thin by virtue of teh exponents going vertical at the singularity - it then burns-out (often explosively - rupturing the membrane). The universe will not venture beyond a singularity.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
The conectome thingy applies in ways you might not imagine - but given a bit of splashing-around in neural theory - you will see it plain as day.
In other places I am assembling the hypothesis of "the conservation of entropy". I think this will be important somehow - your allusion to non-linear boxes-within-boxes fits nicely with it.
What i was sculptimg in my reply to you was an observation of teh nature of "intent".
And it is very cogent to the practice of cloud-seeding.
It all comes down to the russian-doll view of "self",. Damasio shows that we have 3 components of self, we can also observe that individual humans give rise to a community self, and this in turn creates a super-community self.
These things are all conformant to the notion of a connectome - and connectomes are the evolving state of neural networks - connectome refers to the loadings(potentiation) of synapses - evolving, not static.
Neural networks are clever, but they have intrinsic flaws. The most pervasive of these is the "local minimum". The local minimum is where a part of teh conectome becomes static. In functional life, this is necessary - you don't want to be having to learn how to walk every time you need to walk .. but it is problematic in areas that must evolve - i.e. a world view.
So then we get back to "intention" or as you say "in whose interest" do we act?
All action is executed for the advantage of a "self". And no action can be judged without first identifying that self.
In the case of cloud seeding, the self is not defined - it could be just an aeronautic company making a dollar, it could be a government manipulating GDP factors, it could be a global cabal fighting off the inevitabilities of global warming, it could be a church hastening the apocolypse - no one has been consulted outside these "selves" - this is evident because we don't know whome is exercising an "interest".
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
In neural nets, the malfunction of a single neuron will do no more than make the result a little fluffy - the topology will re-adjust to compensate.
The life force in entropic conservation is conserved - it is the global gradient - any ripple on that gradient can collapse - any net imballance in that collapse will be taken-up by surrounding ripples and "iron-out" the discrepancy - conserving the global gradient. In other words - your life force never dies - but your ego does not go to heaven - no sense of self does. What DOES live on are the selves which have taken up roost on you super-entropic field. In the most banal - these are the bacteria and worms - many of them will leave nothing more than humus, but some will find another field to occupy - or go to sleep in the long trail of fading entropic potential as eggs, cysts or spores. Perhaps these have their meta-equivalent in ideas or artworks.
The Phoenix is the full cycle of the tower of Babel. But what rises from the ashes is not always the same thing that burned.
Entropy is simply the process by which things spread-out and homogenise - energy just goes out and out until it joins with the background microwave radiation we see in the entire universe .. about 2 watts per sqr K (or somethign like that). On its way from cohesive lumps of stuff to homogenous haze is a gradient - entropy.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
Yes - no one knows - or if they know, they aren't exactly shouting it from teh rooftops ;)
I've had a bit of a wander around the net and there is actually a LOT of discussion going on about geoengineering ethics and methods .. it's just not being touched by mainstream media - and no government is taking the responsibility to inform those they purport to represent.
Youtube and the blogosphere is enormously entertaining on this topic - everything from chicken little to admiral Nelson ("the sky is falling!" and "Sky? What sky?")
Aparently a bunch of power poles burst into flames in Texas a few days ago - it is a new bit of fireworks for the kiddies .. and perhaps the aluminium particles on teh fog are helping it all along.
Others are saying that perhaps global warming is way ahead of schedule and a bit of global-dimming is in order. There might be some legs on that theory .. seems that an awful lot of methane is bubbling up in the gulf and various coastlines - while the tundras are giving up their methane in such quantities that you can ignite any old hole in the ice. And .. erm .. wasn't methane 10 times more greenhousy than Co2?
And yet others are saying "no! .. It's the Sun - it's doing all this" .. but the sun has been unusually quiet lately .. maybe it's just having a few beers, a bag of crisps and watching the show.
I remember learning years ago: pay now, or pay later with interest.
Now what was that about national debt? And what was it we got without paying up? Was it worth it?
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
Each time the real world knocks at teh door of our world views, it is asking us to add more rooms, and as one takes a wider context, humans start looking like failed apes .. Bonobos and dolphins seem to do much better.
Here's a vital question which no one has asked point blank:
Sapolski observed taht baboons need only spend a couple of hours taking care of their needs - food gathering and the odd skirmish with other tribes, so they spend the other 10 hours of teh day screwing with each other and makign each otehr miserable (look at his documentary on stress).
Leaving aside all teh bad behaviour in lower primates (including humans) .. what was that he said? Only 2 out of 12 hours maintaining a reasonable living standard?
And how many hours do humans work every day?
Let's assume you have only one job .. and let's assume you don't do any overtime. And let's assume that you spend a further 2 hours at home before you dive into a few beers and turn on the TV for 4-6 hours.
OK - so how come?
How come humans need to work so hard?
Would it not be better to be baboons and spend a few minutes each day educating alpha males to stop being such destructive doiks?
And .. if we need only work 2 hours - where is all the value for the other 8 hours going?
Could we be feeding our "labor saving devices"(cars whitegoods etc)?
Could we be feeding psychopathic alpha males who do nothing?
THere seem to be 2 mindsets going on - 1. control is good - total control is best. And 2. There is no need for total control - everything that is supressed is forced to arise in another form - desperate, doomed firefighting.
Death is not bad - it dies, harm is the real problem - it does not die till it is healed
Paul Asir Joseph
Mitch SMith 50+
Are we talking about floods/droughts?
I can see where such things might be judged as harmful to the community - however, is the community being asked? Are we balancing the need for rain against the need for sunlight? Some crops are hurt by rain at the wrong time, others are benefited, should the food-growers be placed at higher priority to the builders - the growers might like rain, whilse the builders need dry days to progress work.
How does this kind of thing get balanced?
Should there be some kind of community weather ombudsman who has a formal process accpeted by the community - or should it just be dictated by the king who withers and who drowns?
Is it something that can be trusted?
None of these things have been asked - I would like to see the process either started or the king's authority accepted for better or worse - right now, there is nothing but chaos.
Don't get me wrong - I love chaos - it is fun and lots of people get killed if they don't see it coming. And that's good for evolution ;)
max golding
Mitch SMith 50+
the notion of information is rapidly dissapearing in a puff of youtube soundbytes.
When I got interested in this a few weeks ago, I went off to see what was beign said around the net, and it's a circus bigger than the Colloseum.
I think we should start rating issues by some sort of circus-scale - something like nukes.
Chemtrails would score something like: a 20-megacolloseums on the circus scale.
So how does anyone get informed consent in amongst all that?
One thing that it does reveal is that information itself is under attack.
I think there is an opportunity for a new professional class of people who go out and see for themselves - and come back to report. Sort of like private investigators.
This is what journalism was supposed to do, but journalism has let us down big-time.
In the absence of any such reliable service, all we are left with is our senses - if you have not seen it, it is probably a lie. Rumor of what lies byond the horizon is just that - rumor.
All I know for sure is that I've seen some cloud seeding over my community and it mucks-up the sky. I don't like it, but before I go off complaining, best I understand what I'm talking about .. but the internet is more hindrance than help. I raised the topic here hoping for some more insight - and yes, a little, but not anything to base a decision on.
I like Marvin Minski - he's a magnificent nutbag, but appears to be honest. He has a talk here somewhere where he observes that people have never sought due dilligence with new technologies - they just go ahead and do it .
The critical point behind that is to ask - why do we want these powers in the first place? And How much power can a human be trusted with? I'm still iffy about cars .. too many of my friends got killed or killed others by cars when I was a young man - were they to blame?
Mitch SMith 50+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JAv1w0Svk4&feature=plcp
What i find curious is that the discussion seems to be happening after the fact.
It's already on record that weather modification is ramping-up - certainly in regard to cloud seeding.
Puting sulfides into the air was foreshadowed on a TED talk last year.
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_keith_s_surprising_ideas_on_climate_change.html
It is clear that a lot of research is being done, and that approval after the fact (is that forgiveness?) is being sought for limited testing.
Perhaps it resolves to an exploration of authority itself. In a world where no one person can reliably know what is happening beyond their own horison, or what power technology has granted us somewhere else on the planet, is it even reasonable to assume that authority exists? And if it exists, do we want it given the implications of sacrifice of freedoms implied by a world authority?
Wilbert Hunt
Native Americans have used rain dance to invoke rain. I can invoke rain or stifle it for an indeterminate time, creating an abundance of rain or droughts in the process.
If I can do it, so can others. We have only to ferret them out, using some non-judgmental method, so that they will be willing to come forward without fear of ridicule and derision.
I have had success in bringing rain to drought areas, and I believe that I could sustain it for a time, as weather patterns create conditions that leave large areas of the land without sufficient moisture to maintain crops, or to keep areas hydrated sufficiently to prevent forest, or grass fires.
I'm sanguine that there are others who can invoke rain, but I don't know that for certain. This much I do know: I won't be here forever, and with my passing, my ability to invoke rain will pass with me.
Mitch SMith 50+
It is clear that not everything is known - about anything.
We do our best with perception. But perception is not a tool of absolute knowledge - it is a tool for adapting to the present moment and moving on to the next. If one gets from this moment to the next, then perception has done its job.
Unfortunately, there is no good test to tell us whether we survived by perception or by chance.
The scientific method is useful becuase it shows if something is repeatable or not. But it can only contain a local definition of local causality.
Anything that lies outside the field of perception cannot be tested - and causality is often later shown to be mere correlation.
The scientific method itslef is careful to recognise this - that it is a hypothesis until shown to be repeatable and becomes a theory when accepted generally by peer review. It does not claim to be final, and new hypotheses are sought when predictions of theory fail.
But perception is in 2 layers: the firslt layer is tightly coupled with the senses - it consists of a collection of causal maps learned directly from the senses - it is prone to a little error through incomplete observation plus the noise present in both the sensory and percptional signals.
The secondary field of perception comes to us through language. THis layer is perticularly error-prone. One would do well to assume that most of what is told to us is untrue.
All you can trust that comes from another's mouth or another's pen is what you can go out and test for yourself - you must assume that the rest is lies.
Unfortunately, most of a human's world view is composed of this secondary layer - second hand rubbish from delusional or manipulative authors.
If you can bring rain .. well, I've seen and done some crazy stuff .. so you gat a 50/50 that you are not just trolling for rain business.
I'd only point out that the perception system has the purpose of adaptation - not manipulation.
To manipulate is to fail adaptation.
Wilbert Hunt
I'm not making a case for or against science. It serves a purpose despite its limitations. Yet, I still insist--correlation notwithstanding--I can invoke rain within three or four days of setting the event in motion.
"All you can trust that comes from another's mouth or another's pen is what you can go out and test for yourself - you must assume that the rest is lies."
To call something unproven--or not demonstrated to your satisfaction--a "lie" is a bit harsh wouldn't you say, unless it's categorically clear that the intentions of the other were designed to deceive?
"Unfortunately, most of a human's world view is composed of this secondary layer - second hand rubbish from delusional or manipulative authors."
I stated, without equivocation, that I posses the ability to invoke rain. Nothing I said should have elicited the conclusion that my purpose was to "manipulate," or that my claim should be summarily dismissed as "second hand rubbish," or that I'm "delusional," simply because my claim resides outside your "perception" and doesn't fit your worldview.
Where is that scientific open-mindedness!
"If you can bring rain .. well, I've seen and done some crazy stuff .. so you gat a 50/50 that you are not just trolling for rain business."
I can "bring rain."
I've done so for years, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. As I now write, rain clouds have formed overhead, promising more rain to add to the several days we've already seen.
I live in a drought-prone area, but that likelihood will soon lessen as I continue to invoke rain from time to time to augment the downpours that're seasonal.
Further, I'm neither a "troll," nor one in need of "rain business." What I do, I do without pay and usually without recognition, as I have no need to be celebrated for that, which for me, is commonplace.
Mitch SMith 50+
I have no idea where you live - you don't seem to have a profile ..
The nucleus of my reply is that manipulation is a failure in adaptation.
I would argue that the manipulation of our Earth system is timkering with something we will never fully understand.
I once pulled the life back into a dead woman by drawing it in through her feet.
Or so I thought at the time. It seemed to work - no lifesigns then lifesigns.
There is some kind of shamanic principle that cuts in at dire need. Hey ho - that's why you get the 50/50.
In the realm of secondary perception, I have learned to become quite circumspect - secondary perception is particularly vulnerable to manipulation via world-view - look around.
I don't think it's harcsh .. in fact, I feel quite forgiving about it all.
Manipulation of the thing to which we adapt (the universe) leads to the imposition of our world view on the world - it will be in error because our world views are in error.
Manipulation is the denial of the flow of time - at the very instant you think you have it nailed - or if someone else has it nailed - you are stuck in a static place of suspended adaptation.
Risk can be defered, or shifted to someone else, but it does not go away. The risk that we shift or defer is cumulative - the masters of manipulation defer risk beyond their lifespan and leave the accumulation for their children.
There is only one healthy use of risk engineering - and that is social risk-spreading.
If you are manipulating the weather, by whatever means, I would have to ask your justification for doing so and warn you that there will be a price to pay.
Wilbert Hunt
If there's a price to pay, then I've paid it, or it has been deferred, since I've invoked rain for more than 50 years.
For reasons you may or may not understand, I don't share many personal details--too many in our midst have camouflaged both their intention and their purpose, harboring one nefarious goal after the other.
Knowingly or unknowlingly, we all "manipulate" the weather, as well as other events on the planet, some catclysmic, while others are scarely noticed. I rather doubt that my invoking rain will do any more harm than has already been done to the planet, what with the climate change that's now consuming our collective attention.
"I would argue that the manipulation of our Earth system is timkering with something we will never fully understand."
Argue all you wish, but I understand the nature of reality, and the methodolgy involved in what you refer to as "manipulation." Given that understanding, I can asure that there's no "risk" involved in what I do, and no risk deferral.
The risk only comes when I don't intervene to cancel what's been set in motion by the collective, crop failure, as well as forest and wildfires.
"I would have to ask your justification for doing so."
The answer is simple: because I can.
"I have learned to become quite circumspect - secondary perception is particularly vulnerable to manipulation via world-view - look around."
I have no need to "look around," as you suggest. There's sight and there's sight. There's a relative view and there's an absolute view. I move between the two withiout missing a beat, engaging source while others "tinker" with effect.
"Manipulation is the denial of the flow of time."
I don't "manipulate." As for time, it's a human construct, which allows us to separate cause and effect sufficently to observe it, since cause and effect are one.
Wilbert Hunt
Another observation: Is not the title of your piece the following: "The case for cloud-seeding"?
Aren't you building a case for "manipulating the weather"?
Mitch SMith 50+
If you have such ability - why do you fear?
Oh - and do you play music?
Wilbert Hunt
I take no more pride in them than I take pride in walking or talking: It's a natural extension of who I am.
"If you have such ability - why do you fear?"
I'm not afraid. I'm cautious. If your experiences were my experiences you'd be cautious, too. Shakespeare was spot on when he spoke these words through Hamlet:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I may not be afraid to handle a rattler, but it would be imprudent to throw caution to the wind when I do it.
"Oh - and do you play music?"
Sometimes the piano, more as a dilettante than a pro.
"I am not building a case, I am exploring the issue."
Godspeed with your exploration.
"[A]ll world views are false - including mine."
Yet, they represent your truth, and for that reason they are an integral part of who you are, oftentimes forged in the crucible of life and one's experiences. With that in mind, they should be treasured, as they will, most assuredly, serve your larger purpose one day, soon or late, which is to create yourself anew.
Mitch SMith 50+
I am not building a case, I am exploring the issue.
I jhave my own attitude on the subject, but rather than just go off like Don Quixote' it seems better to gain a wider appreciation - all world views are false - including mine ;)
Mitch SMith 50+
Perhaps we should take this offline .. or perhaps we should play in the sun.
Whatever.
The experiment has already yielded what I required in this thread. .. but how to give back?
It's hard when those who watch, watch from walled gardens.
Seemingly safe.
But nothing was ever safe. So I go out bald into the world - shielded only by nakedness and find that .. death is not hard .. or even a thing to worry about.
I like wild things.
Sure we can leap from the relative to the absolute .. but the joy is in the leaping - not in the fence.
My contact is in my profile - shall we go on?
peter lindsay 30+
Mitch SMith 50+
The numbers reveal many thousands of tons of the material being used.
I would point out that fractal systems are the most efficient method for concentration and dispersal of any particular medium. For instance, a tree uses fractal branching to maximise surface area for photosynthesis, and a river system concentrates the entire cachement towards the estury - or the water-supply dam, whichever is the case.
All that aside, the issue may lie in the chaotic nature of weather itself. Chaos systems abound in fluid dynamics, and the signature property of a chaos sytem is its unpredicatability - even the rounding of numbers to any order of magnitute results in a deviation of predictions. This is otherwise known as "the butterfly effect" - be careful to not confuse that with the alarmist media image - it is a scientific principle of deviation, not multiplication - the "butterfly wing causing hurricanes" serves to illustrate outcomes within system dynamic ranges - e.g. weather can be dead-calm or hurricane strong.
In my opinion, the real issue lies in the un-knowability of outcomes. That we are meddling with stuff that cannot be predicted seems somewhat cavaleer and irresponsible.
I note also that the dynamic range of a system is determined by energy in that system.
If cloud seeding has an impact on energy retention in the weather system, then that is one issue all by itself. The other issue might be the inadvertent desertification or flooding that may arise within the dynamic range with absolutely no way of predicting. Chaotic systems will spend time with attractors which mark dynamic extremes - the frequency by which they oscillate between the attractors will influence average outcomes which we percieve as flood, hurricane, drought, glaciation etc. What is of more concern is what statisticians refer to as "outliers" - these are extreme events that do not inflluence the average very much - and may exceed dynamic limits.
peter lindsay 30+
Mitch SMith 50+
THis depends on how and where the sample is taken.
But it is al lnot so simple:
Silver, of itself is not so toxic. It has anti-bacterial properties that are used in medicianal scenarios.
Iodine is also beneficial in small amounts. In fact, I live in teh Tasman Geo Syncline which is devoid of naturally occuring Iodine - so a little more might be good. However, it will not, by itself reach any consumer of teh dam water - becasue the addition of flourided binds-out the iodine anyway.
However, we are talking about silver iodide which has a very strong latticed molecule. I am not sure if environmental breakdown will prevent dam concentrations. Besides which, it is too early to take any such sample - the effects will take time as catchment flows reach the concentration point. This may take years to show up.
Then there are other environmental pollutants which may interact - we have absolutely no idea what the result will be. I did observe 20,000 litres of hydaulic fluid go on its merry way to the dam from a crashed tanker-truck .. nice green colour.
No one knows. No one can know.
When you then add the process of genetic expression modifiers from exogenic/ environmental factors, it gets even more interesting. I bet none of this stuff has been tested for its affects in that regard - it's all just putting nosebags on cows. There is a ton of accumulated "junk" in our DNA which occurs in sets - when one gets turned-on, it tends to bring a few others with it - and a lot of this stuff was from ancient adaptive traits that are long since obsolete. It would be sad if a set got turned on which contains the adaptation to Cambrian atmosphere - anyone so affected would suffocate - but it would happen by accumulation - with the affect and apparent cause well removed beyond clear detection - just like autism. Just exactly like autism.
It has been shown to happen - it can happen and we have no idea what we are doing.
Mitch SMith 50+
Silver iodide works as a cloud seeding agent becasue it is a strong ion. Water moleculaes are an electro-static dipole. The silver iodide works by presenting a positive ion matrix against which teh water binds. Layers of water molecules build up in a lipid structure which is positively charged on the exterior (the process that is responsible for surface tension).
INducing a stronger electrical potential by the use of silver iodide will increase the plasma state of rainclouds. The resulting electrostatic dynamic will be more powerful than the usual dust-formed raindrops. I predict more powerful lightening strikes.
We had one such near here last night .. it was one hell of a thump .. usually these things go-off in the higher atmosphere and make a rumbling - this on ewas a thump - it put out power for a radius of 4 villages (about 10 kilometers).
peter lindsay 30+
Mitch SMith 50+
Yes, I have a particular fondness for electrical storms. I just haven't seen them behave like this in my locality. Just got another one - a really big one. The ground strikes were being accompanied by plasma discharges inside my house. I've not experienced that before. Not here anyway. There is a place about 20 miles to the northwest where plasma activity has always been high - st elmo's fire and ball lilghtning . people's telephones exploding. But not here. If the cloud seeding is not increasing all this plasma activity, then it could be the recent CME from the sun .. although that one apparently didn't breach the magnetosphere.
No conclusive evidence for any particular hypothesis. THe trend is however pretty much in line with increased energy correlating to more extreme outliers. Anything that increases the energy will show up somewhere - it all being a chaos system, we can't know where or how. But the assumption that people can keep adding more and more energy to the environment is doomed, one way or another.
Do you have a link to the 20-year studies?
Mitch SMith 50+
All this seems to be confirmable.
Since this is clearly impacting more than my little bit of the planet - It seems worth a look for nearly everyone!
http://rezn8d.com/wxmod/
I had no idea it was this extensive
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Mitch SMith 50+
All the links are on teh record - despite the author's divulged personal stance, he has been at pains to publish teh evidence as he has found it.
Congratulations - you have successfully established yourself as, at best - a vested interest, and at worst - a shallow armchair commentator.
On second thoughts ... well, no I don't know what you are. And it seems silly to endulge in name calling. Perhaps some well supported arguement would help?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Mitch SMith 50+
You are not alone. Often I find it difficult to not be affected by the delusions of others.
I have observed that you have a great deal of substance to add to any discussion. Hopefully I can prompt you to add your insight with this issue.
From what i see in the empirical material, weather-mod attempts have no more than around 10% success rates. I think that's important.
Also, the material linked by Edward shows that we do have an issue with the affects of particulate effluent from industry - particularly coal fired power stations. Having lived in coal mining towns, I know that the nearby power stations were constrained to add electrostatic precipitators to reduce ash emissions, but that they often turned them off at night.
So we have a fairly complex discussion on our hands:
On the one hand, it seems like gross meddling in dynamics we understand little of.
On the other hand, we have a need to offset accidental influences to restore humidity flows.
But there is the new added dimension of the Co2 and global effects from it.
I have observed that people rarely "go down the hole" to fully understand things - which results in the politicisation of any issue with a technical cause. The Gore Vs. Monkton circus comes to mind.
I saw that politicisation at work when I was involved in fixing the Y2K computer bug - the tinfoil-hat-brigade were out in force at teh time - made me laugh, but the exploiters of the politics and allocation of budgets made me somewhat sick.
A thing that also concerns me a bit is that the tinfoil-hat guys now claim that the global climate thing is a ruse. I already know how this works - they see only the politics (which certainly exist), but one must go look at teh actual scientific papers to really understand - scientific papers are very dry and un-sexy - there's no entertainment value in them, so they get conveniently pushed aside in favour of the drama.
What are your thoughts?
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
There is another angle to this - and that is the one of opportunity.
My state is conducting cloud seeding in order to extend the ski season in the local snow fields.
What is not being made public is the operation going on over my head - far from the snow fields. I can guess why it is being done here because I am on the catchment area for a major city water-supply dam that was drying-up.
However, to my knowledge, anyone can commission cloud seeding for whatever purpose with the appropriate aprovals. This approval process is not well known and might not even be sought.
from what I understand, most the cloud seeding is conducted by private aviation companies. One can imagine that having such an adjunct "product" would be a boon to an otherwise cash-starved industry.
So the issue is "nanny-state" against due dilligence.
It is the same as gun laws. How much power can humans manage responsibly? Can we control it, should we control it? Should we just let people extinct themselves? Is there any alternative?
Anyway, that's somewhat off topic.
Here, I have stated two "for" cases" - extended commercial snow-season, and mittigation of water shortage.
I note that these are very short-term advantages - but on the other hand, no one has any idea about the long term beyond policy that just "feels right" or may have some historical political advantage.
At the very least, I think people have a right to access what is actually known..
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
Silver iodide is indeed classed as a poisin, but the toxicology does not seem exhaustive.
In the case of cloud seeding over my locality, it will all end up in the water supply of 7 million people. I'm not sure how the concentrations will pan-out. However, having watched about 20.000 litres of hydaulic fluid go rolling down the creek into that particular dam, I suppose it's moot whether the silver iodide will be well represented amongst the other toxins in there.
Toxicology itself is undergoing some updates. For instance, we are only just beginning to understand teh exogenic/environmental influence on gene expression.
We have no idea what "junk dna" wil be activated by these things. Such activations bring with them "sets" of traits that may have been de-activated back when we were were carbonaceous creatures - back when the air was different. THis would lead to a lot of still-births, or bad maladaptations. On the other hand, may re-adapt us to the air we are creating for ourselves. Iether way it is cataclysmic.
edward long 100+
http://www.environment.gov.au/water/publications/urban/cloud-seeding.html
Mitch SMith 50+
It's amazing what happens when there's 7 billion brains on a planet - there is almost always an answer being found - or under investigation:
http://rezn8d.com/wxmod/
This fellow has been looking for the observable, confirmable extent of cloud seeding - and a whole lot more!
Worth a look at... I kinda feel silly asking the question in the face of this!
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
The interesting thing, when one has a look at the official material, is that cloud seeding seems to be only around 10% successful.
I don't think it's something to cause so much alarm. My topic was prompted by the practice of it over my head - dimming the mountain sunshine I so love - that coupled with the seeming lack of transparency prompted me to consult the good thinkers of TED.
The true "tinfoil-hat-wearing-brigade" are blaming Obama - I must say, following this theme on the internet has turned up some very enetertaining material .. Monty python would approve.
But, when one is considering the potential of weather alteration, it starts to hit the same jurisdictional issues as the internet.
I think it warrants discussion. The bones of truth-not-told will agregate the flesh of imagination. So what is this particular beasty? A dragon of a wombat?
edward long 100+
Mitch SMith 50+
The problem with secrecy is that we are not given the opportunity to ask critical questions.
In a democracy, we have the chance to prevent antithetical interests from hijacking our community value. Whilever the issue is not under the scritny of our millions of brains, we are at the mercy of any interest that decides to take-up lodging in the vacuum.
At the moment, it seems to be mostly aviation companies offering a service to agricultural and state bodies. It would seem natural for them to do so - certainly any business must look for avenues of income. However, I group this particular service with the practice of "sky writing" which, to me, was the gross vandalising of my sky for the benefit of strangers who asked no leave of those inflicted.
Advantage begins at the very local field of perception - one can say " her'e's a service I can do and get paid. Fine. Then there's the company that says - "write my Toyota logo in the sky" - seems OK - people don't object so much to marketting in their other environments - so tacit approval is assumed. But I am not the only one who gets ticked-off by people meddling with my sky.
The Dec 21 thing is terribly seductive. THe combined hysteria itself might precipitate problems. For myself, I've stopped listening .. I have my own pet theory - and it's way beyond anything we should worry about. Which leaves good-old hum-drum politics. The real issues never change, and we might be better served to keep concentrating on the fundamentals. As far as I'm concerned, the fundamental issue still remains with "how do we manage our tribal dynamics - is there truly a threat from other tribes?: if so, what is it and what can we do about it without resorting to obsolete prehistoric mathods.
Having granted unlimited power to ourselves, I can't see cave-man techniques serving us.
Justin Elkin
Mitch SMith 50+
But one has to ask "for whom?"
For myself personally, I have been aware of the cloud seeding technology for a while, but was surprised to see it being deployed above my head.
I noticed it by way of seeing that, for a few weeks, the sun seemed dimmed and teh air had a dark haze and uncharecteristic sense of humidity that did not show up on my hydrometer.
I happen to enjoy blue skies and warming sunshine. I live in a semi wilderness area out of choice - at some expense. Seeing my blue skies and warm sunshine being systematically comprimised gave me a sense of resentment. My long term was being cancelled for the short term of others.
Perhaps I should move to somewhere else.
Justin Elkin
Mitch SMith 50+
It's seemingly local and the only official seeding is over the ski country 300 kilometers south. The winds are not right to support any over-blow.
I'm not that concerned about silver iodide .. well no more than any other industrial polutant .. hey, what's another poison? It's a doddle next to what is coming out of our chickens these days.
At first i dismissed the chemtrails thing .. mostly it just attracted schizophrenics. But it has been shown to have that nucleus of truth.
And being a crotchetty old coot, I like complaining if anything gets changed.
However, I did take close notice of what is happening with public awareness. A pattern emerges. I pondered about the conspiracy thing - how it has grown to be an industry.
At first I was vehemntly against anyone who spouted such nonsense - specially "chemtrails". I was so strident about it that I was being blamed for being an "Illuminati" . LOL!
Since I did know that some of the conspiracy stuff was true (economic collapse) I hypothesised that all the tinfoil-hat stuff was a public campaign to sow red-herrings.
I said "How do you get "the cat" back in "the bag"? - you throw a bunch of fake cats around the place, then when they are found to be fake, the real one will be assumed to be fake also - and you quietly slip it back in the bag."
But now I am seeing that many of these fake cats are real cats wrapped in feaux fur .. which would conform more with fashion.
I don't believe that cloud seeding is some atttempt to execute a eugenics program, that would be more effectively done by .. hmmm chicken? LOL! No, there is no need for that either.
Most things happen by accident - both our great advances and our terrible mistakes, humans are so vain they think they are responsible for everything. We are, however good at adapting - but only if we allow our perceptions to come back to planet Earth. The truth was never sexy.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
here, a local government uses cloud-seeding to protect grape plantations from hailstorms. in china, they increase precipitation in otherwise dry areas. these might be dangerous practices, but this is civilization. we tweak the environment for our benefit.
Mitch SMith 50+
The debate is about the pros and cons of cloud seeding - not the issue of government secrecy.
Please try again.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Mitch SMith 50+
I really am curious about the for and against (pros and cons). And I appreciate your contribution.
Allan Macdougall 30+
"we tweak the environment for our benefit."
Therein lies the very root of our problems.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Allan Macdougall 30+
Mitch's debate is about cloud seeding. Cloud seeding in my opinion is a dangerous form of global 'environmental tweaking'. Siver Iodide is known to be toxic to humans, fish and animals. Also, seeding clouds in one area is bound to cause precipitation deficits downwind in other countries who may also be reliant on that rainfall.
I'm therefore against cloud seeding for this, and many other reasons.
What would be your reasons for being in favour?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Allan Macdougall 30+
Therefore, anything toxic to life needs appropriate containment and control, and must not be attached to anything as randomised as rainfall.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Allan Macdougall 30+
I was talking about the indiscriminate nature of rainfall, which as you know, is driven by the vagaries of global weather systems (hence 'might'). Such rainfall might or might not fall on environments sensitive to the toxins it contains. I am 100% against taking such risks.
By the way, you said silver iodide 'might' be a toxin.
Would you like to change that to IS a toxin?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Allan Macdougall 30+
The mercury preservative in Thimerosal may not do immediate harm, but mercury is cumulative in the body and can only be removed by chelating compounds.
http://www.mercurylife.com/mercurylife/chelating_out_of_the_darkness/
Heavy metals (like silver) also are cumulative in the bodies of other animals including those we consume, and clearly it would be impossible to chelate such toxins out of the bodies of fish, for instance, before we eat them.
In summary, it is the cumulative effects of these metals that causes me concern. Cloud seeding with silver may not be a problem now, but in significant accumulations in the future, it will be.