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Robert Winner

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Filings from 15 states to secede from the United states

Folks from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States and one person from North Dakota has filed for New York state to secede. Petitions required 25,000 signatures and are then forwarded to the President for consideration.

I would hope that this is mostly symbolic but it does show that there are some hard feelings about the direction the US has taken.

One of the questions involved with the petitions is that if you signed it will you be on a federal watch list as a subversive. Certainly a valid question. Time will tell.

Another question is, this is a pretty strong hint that not everyone is happy ... will the message be heard?

What do you think of this jesture.

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    Nov 15 2012: Bob,

    I did not vote, and i am not a big fan of the government of Obama, but i was also not a fan of the Romney proposal, at all.

    I remember many republicans who thought they had the election in their pocket, calling out to democrats to "behave as adults" after the election and be "good losers".

    I see these petitions as symbolic but i also see most of them as a sour reaction of people who have a hard time accepting disagreement with their worldview.

    My own worldview is quite different from both democrat and republican, but i would never consider filing a petition to secede because the election was won by someone who don't represent exactly my worldview.

    But i think people are both a bit lazy and a bit arrogant. It is easier to focus on the things that we disagree on, and waste time there, than it is to find common ground and walk together. People see it as a betrayal to even entertain the idea of working together with their political foes. IT is no wonder the political system is where it is today

    cheers
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      Nov 15 2012: Andres, You make valid points. As an Independent I try to see both sides and cancel out the radical from both (the same can be said for TED). I think there is some real fears such as the economy, the failure of the administration to revitalize the workforce, and what many consider runaway spending.

      Just as a aside have you ever looked at the national debit clock? It has a column on the right side that says the official unemployment number is: and just below that is the actual unemployment number is: Why woud we have two numbers .... we are fed political statements and conflicting facts all the time from all sides.

      It is hard to face the minority 95% of TED users that are very liberal. To be honest sometimes I just tweek their noses for the fun of it. I will continue to do my own fact checking and still listen to valid input.

      Thanks for your reply. Bob.
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        Nov 16 2012: I think many people share these concerns and are not crazy about either party or any current or recent slate of candidates.
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          Nov 18 2012: Sorry Robert I do understand that the Government does think in terms of trillions from an outsiders outlook though the amounts that are spent to run in an Presidential Campaign
          looks like it could equal the national debt of a couple of small African countries.

          Also being an outsider and having been in the US and seeing some of the problems it faces an outsider can sometimes question where priorities lie.

          If the PACs believe so passionately about helping the economy and addressing some of the outstanding issues why could they not show the people they are campaigning too, some restraint. EG: The PAC's agreeing to capped election funding (wishful thinking I know but ..........)

          Sitting down with a stiff scotch before looking
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        Nov 17 2012: Just a hypothetical question for you how much better would the US economy of been if all the money spent on campaigning that includes all candidates had actually been put back into the economy to building jobs and education????

        Should Candidates be restricted in their campaign budgets???

        Just a thought when you look at the economy and you look at what these campaigns costs if those campaign funds been redirected would of they of made a difference if injected into most needed areas of funding????
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          Nov 18 2012: Morgan, Your first question is hard to determine ... In a government that thinks in trillions the amount spent is a drop in the bucket. Education is an interesting study. The Dept of Ed has one mission .. to set educational policy. This includes a staff of over 5,000. Before Carter it was a part of Health, Education, and Welfare. Carter made it a Cabnet post with a annual budget of 19.4 Billion dollars. That should be some policy statement. So what was spent in the election by both sides would be one eigth of the Department of Education budget. The budget defecit is 16 Trillion and climbing. 2 Billion would not cover the intrest due. The government does not creat jobs corporations and investors do so that would not help the economy. If the government creates a job it is at the expense of the people. The bigger the government the more of your money it takes to support it.

          I do not understand PACs and how they work. A lawyer on a news show said that they can write a check to themselves for what is left in the PAC and it would never show up under the existing laws and would essentially never have existed. There is much documentation that shows the accountability is shakey and in many donors are hidden.

          The sad truth is that money never gets to where it is needed. Red Cross CEO makes $951,957, United Way $675,000, UNICEF $1,900,000 .... All of government money also goes to staff and operations.

          Campaigns are ran by lawyers and accountants ... normally not associated with honesty ... so what ever man puts limits on they would find a way to get around it. McCain Goldfine Act spawned super PACs. Politics have absolutely .. IMO .. nothing to do with the people. Everything to do with money, power, paybacks, and the most important EGO.

          If you made a ledger and just looked at numbers (no politics) many minds would change.

          Look at the national debit clock. Sit down first.

          Thanks for the reply. Bob.
  • Nov 19 2012: funny
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    Nov 16 2012: The biggest problem is some nutcase thinks they can secede because their "candidate" didn't win the election???.
    What is that the ultimate hissy fit from a load of cashed up business types who think they could of influenced the Government because they threw a large amount of cash to the campaign.
    If a state secedes itself from the State or USA or Union or whatever you call it, why should that State expect any hands out from the Government it has seceded from??

    Your on your own chum, you did not want to be part of the country like the rest of us so You lose your federal funding and benefits and yes your citizenship as well. Oh also don't expect disaster relief when a Tornado rips through your State or Floods or Hurricanes like Sandy and Katrina. Better ask yourself can you support yourselves????? Can you provide a decent education for children??? Can you support your poor and retired, How do you pay for Veterans pensions can you provide your people with decent health care????

    I'm gathering the answer is no Why is it some people never grow up and make it all about them not the people they represent???
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      Nov 16 2012: Morgan, As a Independent I cannot answer for those who filed. It is my opinion that this is symbolic. The message that "I think" they maybe sending is that they are not happy about the direction that the US is heading, the economy, the job market, etc ...

      If that is true then the message is as much to Congress as it is to the Administration to get their stuff into one pair of pantyhose, put on their big boy pants, and get with the recovery.

      I have been wrong before (priors) so this may not be true. Just a guess.

      Thanks for the reply. Bob.

      By the way what is the structure in the picture logo by your name?
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        Nov 16 2012: I'm not mad about a lot of the policies made my Politicians either but I'm not going to throw a hissy fit and say I'm seceding.

        These people are luckier than in a lot in other countries, if they don't like the way the country is being run they are free to leave until maybe a Government they like is voted in.

        The other thing it comes down to, is, it just that they are not happy with the direction or are there more underlying factions with racial, left wing political views or something more sinister ??

        To quote your own President Abraham Lincoln "You can't please all the people all the time"

        Symbolic or not it is still basically a temper tantrum thrown by a group or even individuals who sit there and they claim how much they love their country but are happy to put in a petition to secede because things are not going the way they would wish it to.
        They should remember that the only reason they can do it in the first place is because of the First Amendment "Freedom of speech"

        Hissy Fit and double standards.

        Oh and the picture is the Chateau de' Chenonceau in the Loire Valley it was known for "the Ladies of the Manor" Catherine Medici Joan of Arc Henry II mistress Dianne De Poitiers expanded the Chateau to span the river,.
        • Nov 17 2012: I do not throw "hissy fits" either.

          In USA poitics, it is a routine means of getting attention.

          It seems to work; it caught our attention.
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    Dec 11 2012: Though my answer is not "on point" with your implied question, I will say that I have no problem with states seceding as long as they are not land-locked. Isn't self-determination a fundamental human right?

    If my state were to secede, I would move sooner rather than later. (I intend to move in the future).

    The idea of secession by the states wanting secession is not well thought out. How will these new sovereign nation states - or even a new confederation of seceded nations survive financially? Those states applying for secession receive far more in taxes than they have paid in. For example, New York gets back 7 cents on each dollar paid to the fed, whereas Alaska gets back $6.00. Alaska is an extreme example, but all of the states with secession petitions receive more than they put in.

    After factoring in that little item, now start removing all military and government contracts and government-supported businesses from the seceded areas and unemployment will bring greater havoc to their economies.

    But this is a choice that the people of the states must make. If I believe in the Constitution - as intended by the ratifiers - and as proven through the "articles of ratification" (of that constitution) by the several states - then I have no right to object.

    Still - on point with your question - the idea is just a few children in adult bodies throwing a tantrum. If they would actually secede, they would make it much easier for the non-seceding states. I wish they would.
  • Nov 20 2012: IMO, these petitions, and the attention paid to these petitions, is more about the power of the internet than about any increase in dissatisfaction.

    Thirty years ago these petitions might have gotten a paragraph or two on page twenty of the local newspaper, if they were mentioned at all.

    I do agree with Edward Long that we are more polarized now than I have ever experienced. I hope that this is not an effect of the internet and other new technologies. There are people who benefit from this polarization and they are using every tool available to promote it.
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      Nov 20 2012: Barry, You may be corrrect .. However, I agree with Edward this is the most devisive I have ever seen the US. I think these people have guessed that they will see more of the same in the next four years under this president. The national debit is projected to be up to 20 Trillion by 2015 .... Obamacare is projected to send states with budget problems over the "cliff" in 2014 into bankruptcy .... We are facing a almost sure depression by January 2013 .... the administration is looking for a way to bypass the laws to make citizens of illegals with all benefits .... the administration has assigned 25 agencies under Executive Orders to be committed to The White House Rural Sustainability Act (basically UN Article 21) ... The big government is getting bigger and more programs are on the table without funding and funds are not available anyway .... the slide to socialism is almost 100% ... we have no foreign policy ... our credit rating went from AAA to aa- and is falling like a rock ... I am 70 years old and will certainly be facing a death panel in the next five years .. The administration has devised a class war while the elietist administration exempted themselves from the very healthcare laws that are good enough for the citizens they serve but not for the ruling class ... so what are they bitching about ... beats me how could anything go wrong.

      So your probally right Barry they are not dissatisfied it is about the power of the internet.

      Watch the lectures of Yuri Bezmenoz on you tube and run the checklist .... Check and Mate

      Thanks for the reply. Bob.
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    Nov 15 2012: Would it be such a great tragedy for a state to secede? It comes up over here(Australia) all the time. California should secede and change its name to Schwarzeneggerland. I wonder what the flag would look like. All hail King Arnold!
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      Nov 16 2012: A terminator on a motorcycle parked over a defeated Predator would make an interesting flag
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    Nov 15 2012: As of Nov. 15 the remaining 35 states have joined the club of secession preppers. Governors say it will not happen, but, still, it is indicative of considerable discontent don't you think? More than just sour grapes. In response Barak Hussein is going all Lincolnesque on us:
    "W.H. Petition Calls for Stripping Citizenship Of Anyone Signing Secession Petition A White House petition gathering force calls for citizenship to be stripped and exile for anyone who signs a petition in favor of a state's secession."-- Weekly Standard
    • Evan S

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      Nov 15 2012: The petition that "Calls for Stripping Citizenship" is not a Presidential response. It is a petition, just like the petitions for secession.


      On a side note, why do you include Hussein when refering to Barak Obama?
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        Nov 15 2012: The source I read said it was a "White House" response and Barak Hussein Obama is responsible for everything that transpires in the current administration, aka "The White House". I use his middle name because the only reason we have middle names is so we will know when we are in trouble. I do not know of anyone who is in more trouble than Barak Hussein Obama! Were you concerned when the press called the previous president "W"? That is his middle name. Is there something about the name Hussein you find disturbing?
        • Evan S

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          Nov 15 2012: The Weekly Standard article that you quote above ambiguously calls it “a White House petition” but goes on to clarify that “more signatures are needed for the issue to be addressed by the White House”.

          I questioned the usage because I usually see it from people trying to highlight his different heritage in an attempt to stir up fear people may have about differences. I’ve found your responses to rise above that kind of pettiness so I thought I’d see if there was another reason, and there was. The “W” was used to distinguish between the two Bushes and not in the divisive way Hussein has been used.

          Now, whether the President is responsible for everything that happens is another can of worms altogether.
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        Nov 15 2012: I find it insensitive to consider a person's name to be somehow divisive. America is the definition of a diverse society and we are becoming more enlightened as time goes by. Heck, we have female CEO's and a President with an Islamic name, if not with Islamic heritage (I don't know for sure). I hope you agree about the sole purpose of middle names. BIG, BIG trouble to accompany the Hope and Change. I can just hear the Senate Investigative Chairperson saying, "Barak Hussein Obama, you get over here this instant!!"
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          Nov 16 2012: I think the middle name only works if that persons grandmother is saying it :P

          You have to admit that it's rather tedious to say "Barak Hussein Obama" when "Obama" or even "O" would suffice. :D
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      Nov 15 2012: On the web the WH stripping petition has many references ... It could not be snoped however. It would appear that David H. from Escondido, CA maybe the designer of this petition. That cannot be confirmed either.

      The problem I have is that this is a real possibility and that I could not dismiss it as rumor and took the time to see if it was real. That in itself is a shame. That I have lost that much faith in the federal government to think that this is possible speaks for itself.

      Further that 35 states now are involved in the petition is a sign that the union is again divided. In the 2008 election we were told that this is a great decision and that Obamas election would serve as the great uniter .... that opinion may need further consideration.

      Thanks for the reply. Bob.
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        Nov 15 2012: More bad news. It's not 35 states, it's 35 MORE states which added to the original 15 brings the number to 50. That I got from the yellow dog journalists at FOX News. If all states secede that will leave lonely little Washington D.C. all alone. This iceberg is big enough to have several tips.
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        Nov 15 2012: This is my source for the White House petition to deport anyone who signs a secession petition.
        http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wh-petition-calls-stripping-citizenship-and-exile-anyone-who-signs-petition-secede_663282.html
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          Nov 15 2012: Looks like it's a petition TO the white house, started by some random guy. That article cites the actual petition, so I don't know why it seems to dance around that point.
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          Nov 16 2012: @ Kitty Hawk RE: "I think the middle name . . . "(Sorry to steal your reply button Mr. Steiner and thanks for the actual petition).Ms. Hawk, Why so much pushback on using a man's full name? Is it because his name is Islamic? All three of his names are Islamic so if that's offensive to some we need a code name for the POTUS. Also, B.O. would work too in place of Barak Hussein Obama. Also, I'm sure I remember my Mother using the three-name summons on me many times. Grandma never would. Oh well we have bigger fish to fry.
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          Nov 17 2012: Push-back?
          Meh, you're probably right about bigger fish...
          I must say I that I prefer "Mr." though!
  • Nov 15 2012: Most of my comments on ted.com are more than likely frivolous, foolish and not worthy of any input or comments.
    But, comment I shall.

    I do think the statement, "..... if you signed it will you be on a federal watch list as a subversive. Certainly a valid question,".......is anything but a valid question.
    A valid question or perhaps more of a comment should be, "How dare they or anyone else make a list of whom they determine will be falsely labeled, so-called subversives." And, be allowed to get away with it.

    It is a direct slap in the faces of all American'ts , that they are the ones who will be labeled as such by those who have been steadily taking away all their freedoms as they termite the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.
    I am amazed at how easily the acceptance of such action by those who are supposed to work for the people, represent the people and do the people's bidding, is just allowed to go by, as though it isn't important. It is the only thing.

    As the U.S. government works to destroy the internet, because it is a powerful tool for and of freedom (the sole reason they do so), there are those who work solely to find new ways, means, methods and places to dodge, outrun, hide, slip by, aid anonymity and safe-guard privacy. Things once upon a time, done by the Constitution.

    They also don't focus on stopping what is being done as they/you/all of u.s, will run out of time, places, dodges, anonymity and rights. That's what voters are supposed to do but voting doesn't work, just as your politicians do not work for you. You are the enemy and you are not in reality, an enemy.
    Wanting to secede is trying one of the last places to run to to stop or escape what is happening in your country and you continually focus on the wrong things.
    Any of you aware of Putin's attempt to make virtually anyone into a traitor?

    For those in the Police States, check:
    http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/05/louisiana_is_the_worlds_prison.html
    Keep laughing
  • Nov 14 2012: This is not a subject I am willing to spend ANY time researching, but I suspect that two of the states that have filed petitions are Texas and Alaska. There have always been a bunch of people in those states who have wanted to secede, and few of them are nuts. They are just independent minded.

    I see these petitions as just business as usual for the USA. During the Bush administration my wife and I seriously talked about moving to Canada.

    I find it interesting that the USA government is promoting a UN process for minority populations to gain independence from their home country. I wonder if the government's position will change If some USA citizens start using that process.
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    Nov 12 2012: The U.S.A. has become 94% polarized. The line has been drawn in the sand and only about 6% of the people are on it. All the rest are strictly on one side or the other. What was once Blue and Grey is now Blue and Red. Centralized government presided over by a chief executive was never the model for this once great union. State's rights was the issue back in the mid 1800's, and is again now. The central, federal, government is supposed to be very limited in its power. Each state has a sovereign right to determine its own destiny within the rules of the union. Lincoln said no to this principle and began the movement toward transferring power from states to Washington D.C. He invested 600,000 lives in the gambit, and won. Since then the power to govern has been steadily funneling to D.C. Maybe America has become two different countries. Rather than splitting we should return to state's rights and preserve the union without killing 600,000 Americans.
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      Nov 12 2012: Now that we have tried everything else how about trying the Constitution? Of course O would not tolerate the loss in revenue just like Lincoln, I wonder if they to over that in the new Lincoln movie?

      By the way from what I hear this is the sort of talk they censor in China on the internet.
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        Nov 12 2012: Dear Pat,
        I LOVE that you are using Obama's image in your profile photo...sends the message that he is truly representing you:>)
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    Nov 12 2012: I think the fact that roughly half the population is unhappy with the results of the election, given the way the popular vote came out, was a pretty strong hint already that "not everyone is happy." When the popular vote is very close, winning cannot be interpreted as a mandate from the entire population.

    I don't think filing petitions to secede is a great use of energy.
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      Nov 13 2012: Remember that Clinton never received more than 42% of the vote in either '92 or '96. No one spoke of secession then.
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        Nov 16 2012: People are more exasperated now after 12 of the last 20 years under Liberal Presidents. They are at the breaking point, desperate and disillusioned. Nobody is going to secede, it's just an indicator of the deep division in our once-great nation.
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    Nov 12 2012: Robert,
    Of course there are some "hard feelings" ...you have expressed YOUR hard feelings several times here on TED. When the candidate of choice does not win an election, there are often hard feelings on the part of those who wanted something different. Speculation is that this idea is indeed a symbolic action by a few disgruntled people, and I agree with that perspective. I agree with Krisztián, in that the idea is created by a very small minority, and while it is important to listen to all sides of an issue, it is kind of silly to get our knickers in a knot about it.....don't you think?
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    Nov 12 2012: Every movement in one direction results in a countermovement in the opposite direction. Obama's ideas about America are bound to result in some separatist ideas more in line with the Foundin Fathers' principles. How serious their magnitude will be depends on how serious Obama will get with his ideas.
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    Nov 12 2012: it can be easily dismissed as circus created by a small minority. and it will be, especially now that obama got the second term. it is hard to argue that dissatisfaction is widespread after such a result.
  • Nov 12 2012: Going back to the earlier debate questions. Yes, people are irrational - really a little stupid. But being in the moment, the smart thing to do is to ignore nuts. The same interests always give lot's of money to both sides. These people who are so unhappy are not wieners(on purpose) they are losers. Ignore losers;however, wieners are not so great either. maybe our underlying problems transcend what concerns the wieners and losers both. Reread You
    don't Understand Me. Prometheans or so rare - There is not a great deal of reationality out there. Someone gave us logic and the scientific method. That's a start.