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What would your ideal government system look like?
What would your ideal government system look like? Is a two party system such a good idea?
Topics:
2012 US election government systems design
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Showing single comment thread. View the full conversation.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
John Frum 30+
Chomksy: "Here, libertarian means extreme advocate of total tyranny. It means power ought to be given to private unaccountable tyrannies, even worse than state tyrannies." And then he goes on about a few more very inaccurate portrayals, without giving any concrete examples of his so-called "corporate tyranny". Tyranny can exist only when some entity can justify their use force, like the police, courts, etc. Corporations, left to their own devices, never could justify force.
I'm afraid Chomsky is the one who is confusing issues and could be said to be lying. For example, he claims that in Europe, libertarian means something other than what it means in the US. Never does he mention where the word "libertarian" was first used. He claims it, automatically, for his ideology. He mentions Adam Smith. Adam Smith was a "classical economist". However, consider John Locke, Frédéric Bastiat, Ludwig von Mises, William Godwin, Carl Menger, and more, who were also called "classical liberals" earlier, and were later associated with the libertarian school of thought. Some of these guys were influenced by Adam Smith too.
Chomsky: "Unsubsidized capitalism... exists only in the third world, that's why the third world looks the way it does. It has never existed in any developed society."
I don't know where Chomsky gets his "facts" from, but that is plain wrong. Just one example, the entire silicon industry... Intel, Fairchild, etc. to HP, Dell, etc. to Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, Google, etc. came to be without any state subsidies.
I'd be happy to listen to proper academics of the field talk about left-libertarianism, in the hope that they will be less prone to distorting what is plain to see around us. Chomsky's field is linguistics, and he has become largely irrelevant in that too.
Orlando Hawkins 20+
haha nice one, you put a lot on the table:
The purpose of the video was to show how Chomsky, who at this time was an anarchist, did not think that anarcho-capitalist qualified as being true anarchist as someone else on this forum mentioned. That was the intent of the video
Chomsky's statements are indeed true. especially if you look at G.W. Bush's presidential track record: tax cuts, elimination of social programs, privatization of government operations, deregulation, environmental destruction for the sake of private profit...Also read the Oct 17 2004 New York Times Magazine by Ron Suskind in relation to George W. Bush's administration and how they viewed politics and the U.S. place in history.
If you looking for sources you should research other Chomsky material.The man is full of facts and I can give your links and information if your willing to know more. These criticisms are also some of the basis on his analysis of anarcho-syndicalism or what he calls "Libertarian-Socialism".
It is also true that ideologies in Europe (especially in N. Europe) differ from that in the U.S. although some terms may be similar. An example of this is also found in his distinguishment of American anarchist from those from Europe. For the sake of not making this sound like an anarchist argument I'll say this: Europe has a radical tradition. There have been many revolutions, civil wars, conflicts, injustice, etc in Europe, so their response to critical issues is much more lively and radical than that in the U.S...
Chomsky in fact admires Adam Smith and has openly admitted that if capitalism was practiced in the way that Smith stated in the "Wealth of Nations" then he'd have no problem living in a capitalistic system.
I would rather hear someone like Chomsky than the "proper academics" being most of those deemed "proper" serve the intelligentsia. Chomksy's theories on language are theoretical and philosophical. His wife would be more scientific if that's what you want.
John Frum 30+
But look at corporate tyranny in the light of what I said earlier "tyranny can exist only when some entity can justify their use force, like the police, courts, etc."
I am not primarily interested in Chomsky. I am more curious about left-anarchy and left-libertarianism. I'd be happier if you could give me pointers to some large companies (more than 500 employees) that are run on those principles -- where there is no concept of private property, internally. It is easy to find examples of tiny companies (less than 50 employees) that are running well on any principle at all. Larger companies, the kind that can buy an MRI machine, or a CAT scanner, need to be run in a manner that respects private property. But I am willing to reevaluate my attitudes towards left-libertarianism when I see things working in a left-libertarian manner.
Every continent has had its share of "radicalness". :-) South and Central America tried various kinds of statism, some even experimented with greater liberalism (Pinochet). Some Asian countries, esp. the South Asian ones, seem to be experimenting with democracy like there is no tomorrow. :-) The US (historically) is unique in its, what some would consider radical, strict adherence to the Bill of Rights. Sadly for the US, democracy had trashed the Bill of Rights. And, as you pointed out, Europe too has had its share of radical ideas.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
John Frum 30+
Orlando Hawkins 20+
Not once did I mention Obama in my original post. The reason for bring up G.W.B. was to show how the government supported corporate and justified corporate tyranny. You honestly cannot separate the two (at least during G.W. Bush's term).
I agree, as would Chomsky, that the U.S. does not have true capitalism but the U.S. does value the profit motive, wage labor, private ownership, division of labor etc...you may not call that capitalism but you can't deny that this is not something that is practiced in the U.S... I'm not going to debate the specifics of the term libertarianism.. You have your opinion of it, its clear your not changing your mind and I can't force you to. If you think its a straw man argument then that's your criticism of Chomsky.
Instead of focusing on companies (which I would find perplexing as to why any anarchist would value that in the first place) you need to focus on communities, which is most important to anarchist. There are many bread factories that run democratically but I'm not sure if they fit your standard of 500...If your concerned about people working together in a collective community there are many examples (one that I laid out in my original post)..I'm happy to provide more examples for you if you would like..as for your last paragraph as I'm going to talk about that in another post along with finishing my point with this one but I'm running out of characters
John Frum 30+
I agree, you did not bring up Obama -- I did, because they are all (not just these two) the same to me. Reference http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-fact-check-bush-responsible-for-bailouts-and-gm-is-number-one/. I did not even deny that corporate tyranny is practiced in the U.S. What I did deny was that all big companies are tyrannical, and I gave examples for that. I brought up Chomsky's use of the term because I have not heard anyone else use it in that manner. I could even claim that the Nazis are now commonly believed to have been "libertarian" -- but that would not agree with anyone else's usage of that word, and all conversations would be meaningless because I have chosen to redefine words arbitrarily. It is even worse to claim that some unspecified people misuse the term.
As far as I know, left-libertarians do not believe in private property or property rights. (http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionB3)
One aspect of bread factories is that each of these equipment would be fairly easily affordable to each person who works there. There never needs to be any "over-seer" to keep track of the usage of equipment. That is why I brought up the MRI machine -- almost no doctor can afford to buy one, and yet, most doctors use it. In a system without private property, but only personal property, one doctor can keep using it for his patients, and deny its use to other doctors who need it, by claiming "well, look at these cases that I have. I really do need it, and as long as I am using it, this machine is my personal property". Can that doctor then be fired from the hospital for not playing nice? Not according to what I know of left-libertarianism.
Continued...
John Frum 30+