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Why do so few people want to live significantly longer and healthier than a so-called natural life span?
As I have discussed the concept of immortality with people over the years, something has consistently surprised me. I ask people, "If you could live a much longer but still vital and healthy life, would you want to live, say, 200 years? 500 years?
Most people do not want to live that long - even if they could remain healthy and vital all that time. It seems what most people are saying, is that they actually *want* to grow old and die.
Yet we all supposedly want to be healthy and strong, and of course we would naturally want to heal ourselves if we got sick or injured - we seek health. Then why this death wish among most people I poll?
I'm obviously in the "Hell yeah, give me healthy immortality" camp, so I'm looking for help from other people in explaining the other side of this please.
Is that a coping mechanism to help accept our own mortality? Would you really turn down an opportunity to live much longer, along with your friends, and healthy?
Or is my own personal polling off? I guess we'll see!
Andres Aullet 10+
Interesting. A question about immortality is intrinsically related to the question of mortality.
And even though I know many people who are not afraid of dying, I can't say I have ever met someone who wants to die, well, maybe excluding some very depressed individuals, but in general, people would prefer not to die tomorrow, if that could be a choice.
As it has been mentioned in other TED conversations, the answer as to why people want to live longer, might just be the irrational (probably genetically conditioned) aversion to dying that we (and other living organisms) have. I am not so sure that it is a minority
But from a pragmatic point of view, lets imagine that someone found a magic way to make immortality available. Who should decide who can and cannot live forever? It is a fact that if it was a personal choice, and a big percentage of the population elected to, then somehow reproduction would have to be abolished or drastically reduced (can't have a cake and eat it at the same time, right?)
Now, I am a parent, and that colors my view on the matter. Would I be willing to sacrifice their right to live in order for me to live forever? I doubt it. One of the things i take most pride in is the mere fact that i will be able to pass both my genes and some of my accumulated knowledge down to future generations. Who would we do things for if we were to live forever? just ourselves?
In any case, great question
cheers
Jessica Hartung
p s
natasha nikulina 50+
It may become just a habit .
Lejan . 30+
As far as I can see, as more intellect we grow and - hopefully - wisdom gain throughout our lifes, as less time remains to finally profit from it by its application.
The only disadvantage I see in extending lifetime is the reduction in evolution flexibility, which may be negative influenced by such a project. But I think, that our minds are not designed for 'infinite' or much prolonged existence, so that there might be a 'natural' barrier, from where most individuals would just wish to end freely.
One day, I am most certain, we'll have the technology to consider those questions more seriously.
Danger Lampost 10+
The part I find most interesting in your comment is about having the right to decide to die whenever you want to. Do you think that suicide is an option that should always be available to everyone at any time? Or only for those on extended life span?
Lejan . 30+
Political, religious and other 'non being' related motivations are excluded.
Even though the 'healthy mind' condition is quite a topic on its own, each of us may sense what it would mean for ourselfs.
As we all carry the instinct of survival within us, a concious decision against it, must therefore bear an ultimate and final conclusion, which is to respect by others.
Support, help and understanding by others within the process of such a descision is assumed, as, to me, only by this the definition of a 'free mind' should be framed.
cst commonsense
When you meet positive, creative people who have 'mastered the inner self' they see the world differently and yearn to learn more and see what the future holds for the human race. When you consider that we may be the only sentient creatures in the universe (unlikely I believe) and certainly we must have a kinship with all sentients everywhere (see Is anyone there?http://www.commonsensethinking.co.uk/philos.html), I personally can't wait to find out if the human race will manage to survive and how. In just a few decades we shall probably have a step change in technology (robotics et al) that takes the human race to another level - freeing us from work and drudgery - who would not want to wait and see how it all pans out? Perhaps we need to teach our children to be more imaginative?
This reminds me of a nice quote:
If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you
really make them think, they'll hate you.
Most people do, unfortunately spend their lives not really thinking much at all, this must be partly because of nature's policy for us and perhaps are poor ability to educate ourselves - especially our children - do we nurture them to really think? (or just train them to keep their heads down?)
see Fit for Life:
http://www.commonsensethinking.co.uk/education.html
Anyway - if you find a way - please put me on your list i'll gladly join you!
ta, JP
Daniel Silberschmidt
Danger Lampost 10+
Steve C
Fran Ontanaya 100+
This is why it's important to spread awareness about how life extension works, and how it's a real possibility. So people feel it's something to strive for, rather than a torturing, impossible dream.
Vincenzo Sergi
cheers
Danger Lampost 10+
My understanding of this argument, is that if you choose death by current natural life span then it's because your biology has limited your ability to experience this universe, so you're naturally inclined to exit this reality sooner than someone else who has a greater capacity to explore more of this universe.
Vincenzo Sergi
Once again. Cheers
W. Ying 10+
That is because they do not enjoy their life, which is due to:
(1) “The VALID happiness is the short-time feeling of things being a-step-better for keeping one’s own DNA alive. ”
(2) A long life of 200 years or more will make the “a-step-better” smaller and smaller.
(3) When the “a-step-better” approaches zero, no people enjoy their life naturally!
Wrong?
Danger Lampost 10+
There is a concept of joy, which is ours for the taking, and always around us, if we know how to take it. Sadly It is a cruel fact of our existence that the path to joy is not obvious and often requires going through great pain, but not always. Many disciplines exist to help us discover this joy.
Joy is a state of mind that is timeless and doesn't need a step better to continue. That's the major difference between joy and happiness.
With joy in my heart, I can live forever.
Roy Bourque 20+
Part of the reason is religion. People have been taught that we are sinners and are suffering in this life for our sin. They think that the hereafter is much to be desired, so to extend this life would be to forestall the heaven that they seek.
Another part is the pessimism that many people feel apart from religion. A person can be lonely in a crowd. A person can be miserable in wealth. When you have the vitality of life, but lack the resources or opportunity to do what you would like to do, it's like being in jail. You feel trapped in your circumstances.
Many people have watched the quality of life grow dimmer with time. Less and less people can afford to own a home. Less and less people can afford the vacation dreams that they once sought after. People have watched their income fall short of their needs with increasing rate. They are being asked to do more with less. They are having to work longer hours with less job satisfaction. They have seen their benefits decline. They don't see this as changing. Only those who don't care what others feel are not affected by this.
A third reason is that many do not feel that they are their body. They feel that they are a spirit confined in a body. As the cycles of life go on, life evolves to higher dimensions. We see children learning much faster than we did when we were young. We want that for ourselves. To watch the world around us accelerate to new horizons while we remain fixed in our present understanding (its hard to teach old dogs new tricks), would become increasingly more mundane. Those who feel that the body is just a vessel that we cast off at death, are hopeful for what is yet to come.
A fourth reason is that they don't believe it is possible to live longer and still be healthy. They called old age the golden years to spice it up. No one is bragging about it.
veronika petrics
So in short. Life is purposeful, good if you are here, extending HEALTHY life is a good desire, ..I just state that there is a point when one wants greater experience of life in a higher demension, where love , beauty and creativity is more emphasised. There are highly evolved beings who can non vioently leave ther body, with the agreement of their body at the end of their purpose being in physical embodiment,...also in some other dimensions. The body served its purpose, thank it and so to speak fly out of it...
veronika petrics
That is the attempts daredevils try to achive ..but can not escape 3D limitations
Danger Lampost 10+
Does a natural death for you get you a ticket to that wonderful world, whereas suicide voids your ticket, maybe because you "have more to do on this planet" or something like that? That's the only reason I could think of for not committing suicide so I would be very interested to hear if there's another reason for you?
Arthur Brown
Juniper Blue 10+
I relate well to this quote by Achilles. Thanks for this!
Elizabeth Gu 30+
Another thought for this question is that people are willing to choose to do something decidedly(so to speak) if there are limited options available for them.
Take Sheena Iyengar’s TED talk for example,
“We decided to do a little experiment, and we picked jam for our experiment. Here’s their jam aisle. They had 348 different kinds of jam. We set up a little tasting booth right near the entrance of the store. We there put out six different flavors of jam, and we looked at two things: First, in which case were people more likely to stop, sample some jam? More people stopped when there were 24, about 60 percent, than when there were six, about 40 percent. The next thing we looked at is in which case were people more likely to buy a jar of jam. Now we see the opposite effect. Of the people who stopped when there were 24, only three percent of them actually bought a jar of jam. Of the people who stopped when there were six, well now we saw that 30 percent of them actually bought a jar of jam. Now if you do the math, people were at least six times more likely to buy a jar of jam if they encountered six than if they encountered 24.”
As you can see from her quote, we’re kind of trying to engage ourselves in at least some limited period of time so that we can plan for our lives with realistic strategies—once regarded as not wonderful to us when we were young, but as time goes by, we’re getting excited(so to speak) about finding a way to survive in this reality, and enjoy various moments of our “finite” lives.
Even enjoying the magnificent scenery you can see through the window could become a tedious job if you’re doom to do it forever.
Maybe we have this unconscious desire that keeps telling us, “That’s enough!”
There's only so much we can take ... :)
Juniper Blue 10+
Bob Stiglitz
It's all about quality of life. This planet has too many stupid people on it. Think about this for a minute, there are billionaires and homeless people IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY in 2012! The socioeconomic system and the underlying values of the society are one of the big reasons why these things exist. There is no cap on how much stuff people can own.
Michael Ameyaw
food cannot only give us immortality cause it is written that because of Adam and Eve man must die .I do not trust illusions and idols and vague deities that presume they can do what God can ..
impossible
God is the only DIVINE IMMORTAL ONE AND THE ONE TO MAKE ANY HUMAN IMMORTAL APART FROM HIM ALL OTHERS ARE LYING THEY CANNOT DO NOT EVEN RESURRECTION
That is why the bible says by HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED ...DOCTORS just try medicines to see which works but GOD has the solution and to heal ...cant you see the pastors pray for people through GOD power ...the HOLY SPIRIT IN CHURCHES ,CRUSADES, ETC
ALL I AM SAYING SEEK GOD IN A CHURCH IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ONE ATTENDING AND VERIFY THE WORD OF GOD IN IT OR BUY A BIBLE AND READ YO WILL HAVE GODS HELP IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT GOD SAYS AND YET STILL CONSULT A PRIEST
THERE IS THIS MEDICINE BY GOOD NEWS MISSION FROM KOREA CALLED DOUBYL PRONOUNCED TOBYL THAT CAN BOOST THE IMMUNE SYSTEM AND LET YOU LIVE LONGER SAY 150yrs BUT NOT IMMORTALITY THEY HAVE A SUBSIDIARY CALLED INTERNATIONAL YOUTH FELLOWSHIP IYF THAT ALSO TEACHES PLAIN GOSPEL SEEK GOD WHERE AND NOW THAT YOU CAN FIND HIM FOR THERE IS GONNA BE A TIME THAT YOU CANNOT REQUEST OR SEEK HIM TO SAVE YOU AGAIN AT HIS SECOND COMING TO RAPTURE THE SAINTS THAT TIME WILL 666 FOLLOW YOU CANNOT BUY OR SELL WITHOUT THAT
Danger Lampost 10+
Reagan McGuire
The fundamental question becomes, what do we lose when we die. Other than that moment and bits of protein in our brain stored as memory
“Were you to live three thousand years, or even thirty thousand, remember that the sole life which a man can lose is what he is living at the moment; and furthermore, that he can have no other life except the one he loses. When the longest- and the shortest-lived of us come to die, their loss is precisely equal. For the sole thing of which any man can be deprived is the present; since this all he owns, and nobody can lose what he is not his.” Marcus Aurelius
Reagan McGuire
Another point from the book is "What this means in essence is that you will have a whole generation that becomes lost.”
Hack took a breath “In this context lost, means young kids will be forced out of the workplace and unable to get into college. You will be extending life to an aging population that will clog the arteries of the economy and the higher education system. The interests of older adults will clash with the upcoming interests and needs of young people. This in turn will cause either rebellion or total apathy from our children.”
veronika petrics
David Hamilton 50+
I would suggest that almost half of people enjoy life in general... but that's probably a lower number than you were expecting. 90% of people HATE, their labor. They do it to survive. They spend 40-60 hours a week, almost half their waking life, doing something that brings them absolutely no joy. In the modern world, they rarely even get a sense of accomplishment. In a world where you can live to be 200, it will be very expensive... and most people don't want another 200 years of work they don't enjoy taking up more than half their time.
If you imagined yourself being a meaningless cog in the wheel of Dunder Mifflin Paper for another 200 years... It probably wouldn't excite you very much either.
Reagan McGuire
I like to believe, "Life has meaning only if one barters it day by day for something other than itself.” Antione de Saint-Exupery
Danger Lampost 10+
So that leads me to ask this follow up question: Was it greedy for us to extend our life expectancy from about 21 years old 1000's of years ago, to about 80 or so today? Or is it only greedy when we extend our maximum potential life span, not so much our average life expectancy? Is it more greedy of us to pro-create at such a fast pace, or to live longer? Aren't both equally greedy, or am I missing the reason why it's greedy?
If you're saying it's only greed when we extend our maximum potential life span (like with Richard's potion), what is the magic about our current natural life span, versus what we (as mankind) can do to increase that? Is it because that's "the way it's supposed to be" or the way we were created?
And if it's greedy to want to extend our natural life span, would it be generous to shorten our life span? Why not? Why ever cure yourself from a disease, as you could save those resources for other healthy people?
Juniper Blue 10+
Regarding the life span being increased form 21 to 80 years (at least in in Western countries) ... I feel guilty that there are people in the world who live in countries where the life expectancy is 59 (or less.) I hope that when/if I reach 60, I will have the courage to not make extraordinary efforts to extend my life should I become seriously ill. I want to live as natural of a life and die as natural as a death as possible once I have lived a reasonable life span ( for my personal goals.)
However .. my goals may change with time... ;o)
Also, in response to your post above .. I have very chosen to not have children because I have felt that there are others who have children and that I can better serve as support to them than to have children of my own.
i guess that I do feel that resources are limited and that I want to help other people have a chance at quality life.
Reagan McGuire
You or anyone interested are surely welcome to read my little story My email is Reagan.McGuire50@gmail.com
Thank you so much, Reagan! What a powerful story you have. A great read!!
“As long as I am alive, I will sample what I can of the fresh offerings provided in each moment.” Reagan McGuire, Can You See The Music?
What would you do if you were offered the chance to extend your life and not suffer the ravages of growing older? Would you use that gift for good or evil? Would you take life for granted or treasure every day, in every moment? Reagan McGuire has posed that question in his novel, ‘Can You See The Music?’ in an honest and powerful view of how humanity has much to learn about life and living.
Richard has developed a potion to extend the lifespan of the human race. He wants to use it for the good of humanity, and he sacrifices his friendships, family and lifestyle in order to do what he thinks is right. However, in the end he finds that he has sacrificed all for the wrong reasons. He also learns the hard lesson that, in all acts of creation the seeds of destruction are sewn.
This book was a philosophical read in which you really leave the story thinking about not just life but also humanity in general. Sociologically speaking, Richard was potentially changing the dynamic of society and playing God in a battle of survival of the fittest. Richards fixation with life has not allowed him to accept the reality, there is a beginning to everything.
Danger Lampost 10+
Juniper Blue 10+
You are a great conversationalist. i don't get to talk about this much because the idea of mortality seems too heavy for most people.
Yes, the contracts seem to be for "future selves." I set goals for myself and I have things that I hope to accomplish in the set contracts. A big part of the negotiating process is deciding if I am contributing to my community and helping to ease some of the suffering in the world ... I am aware that my existence causes me to consume resources that could be (better??) used by others and so, I want to be responsible and give back what I can by living a meaningful life that is as helpful as possible. Other factors in signing a new contract include the "guilt list" ... a list of who would be affected if I did not sign a new contract . A third factor involves asking some basic questions: is my life interesting, am I doing things that I believe in and want to see through to another level, I am learning and growing as a person? This includes social projects, humanitarian efforts and also art, music and other creative endeavors ... travel is also on that list. If I become seriously ill physically, I would consider y physical suffering and prognosis.
If I could order a bottle of pills from you that could be taken in 5 year increments to extend good health, I would.
Control seems to be a big factor in my life decisions ... I want to have a reasonable degree of control over how I live and how I die. I can accept uncertainty in short intervals but the idea of struggling for more than 5 years at a time ... is depressing and not very motivating.
My mortality is a gift. I know my life will have an end and so I see my life as more precious .. each day is a page to be written with care. Each chapter, I am building upon the original character of Juniper, the young kid who decided to write a book (instead of pull a trigger.) The kid who grew up to be an odd, interesting and basically good person.
Hugs to you Danger!
roy flemming
Danger Lampost 10+
So I am compelled to ask: Why not stick around and fight the violence? And also forgive me if this sounds crass (I mean this with respect), if you are so sick of the violence, why continue living at all? Or are you saying that you're not so sick of the violence now (not sick enough to end your life), but that in another 10 or 20 or 50 years, you might be?
Qab Dqab
If it is assumed that everybody is to live such long lives then we have to consider the unprecedented population explosion that could cause all sorts of unpleasant global issues such as more war and famine.
Danger Lampost 10+
I didn't specify in my question whether everyone else would be living longer as well, (although I did say you would get to grow older with your friends in my question) but in my own mind [you can read my mind, right? :) ] I was assuming this was an open offer to anyone that wanted it. Thinking more realistically about it, this would likely be an option that is initially available only to upper classes.
But for the purposes of answering this question, I think it would help simplify things to assume that this offer is available to any person that wants it. So it would be up to your friends and family.
There is certainly an interesting moral issue here around whether such a gift of increased life span/expectancy should be free to the human race as a whole, or available only to those who can afford it. But I think that is a very different issue/topic from the one I raised.
Qab Dqab
Personally I am happy enough with my life expectancy (i would be rather disappointed if it were cut short) but if i were offered a longer life i think i would take it, for many the same reasons as yourself.
Thank you, again, for starting a very interesting discussion.