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James Zediana

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Where did we come from?

I started several debates in TED and results are evolution can't be proven. SHORT OF CREATION and EVOLUTION is there another option?

I believe this is a fundamental question to be answered.

Topics: creation evolution intelligent design
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  • daniel hehir 20+

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    Oct 9 2012: James,

    Hot topic James!

    We are spiritual beings.

    We come from the eternal spiritual world. We are temporarily incarnated in these physical bodies for a short period of time ...walking around on this particular physical plane of existence among many other planes of existence. We were born here .... "out" ....of the spiritual world and we will die, ...back again... "into".... the spiritual world.
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      pat gilbert 50+

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      Oct 9 2012: I would add that Jame implies there was a beginning, the spiritual universe does not have time, that is a physical universe thing. In the spiritual universe there is only now.

      • daniel hehir 20+

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        Oct 10 2012: Hi Pat,

        The whole concept of time as we experience it, sort of as a little fragment of the eternal must also be "inclusive" within the eternal. ...or....?
        Time, as much of an illusion as it is, as you say, has to exist within a physical world in order to measure it at all. Whether it be an atomic clock or the earths orbit around the Sun of about 365 days, or the cosmic clock of the Sun's orbit of 225 million years around the Milky Way Galaxy. ...Apropo the 26,000 year alignment coming up on Dec. 21 2012, where the Sun and Earth will form an straight line to the center of the galaxy, something that the ancient Mayan's mysteriously knew about... (explain that one!)

        As human beings, ..."being born into time" we naturally struggle with the ideas of "Where it all began?" or "What the word eternity can possibly mean...?" But as spiritual beings, after we die, (as I have come to understand it of course) what we experience as a "flow of time" relationship to the outer world, we will experience this later, after death, as a "spatial experience" This is what many people tell of when trying to explain a NDE. They see their lives as in a tableau. Every experience they have ever had.... is, so to say, spread out before them, so they can observe each and every action and reaction that has ever occured to them in their lives as physical human beings. ..... Now I don't know if were drifting off topic here Pat, but it certainly is an interesting topic!
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          pat gilbert 50+

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          Oct 10 2012: To put it simply time is simply the consideration that things will persist, and of course time is the measurement of movement of stuff.

          My take on this we are spirits we can move out of bodies at least when we die. Since we are spirits we are immortal and we have been doing this for a while...

          But what is true? only what is true to your perspective. Anyone Else's opinion about you should not be considered it is irrelevant. You should be your own adviser to do otherwise is the epitome of unethical as you are the only one who can decide what is true for you.

    • Nicholas Heins

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      Oct 9 2012: I think the reason it seems that an individual's "spiritual being is evolving" is that person is growing up. Every animal has a brain that controls many functions of the body. The fact that we experience reality doesn't necessitate a soul or spiritual realm. It just means that we are organisms, and let's face it the main focus even for our brainy species is procreation, just like any other organism.

      • daniel hehir 20+

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        Oct 10 2012: Nicholas,

        What an impoverished perspective. .... "just like any other organism"....?

        Is this really the best you have to offer? ...I mean .....How inimical can you get...?

        No majestical ideas here. No reason for love. No need for development. No reason to reason or think at all ... No sympathy for fellow human beings. No feeling for justice or injustice. We are just a collection of cells....

        And if one cannot procreate, then life must be absolutely meaningless to go on with...

        Sounds like a good recipe for suicide to me ....

        • Nicholas Heins

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          Oct 10 2012: Majestical ideas are great and all, but I live in reality. What I see around me is people working every day building things, trading them, trying to make a life for themselves and their families. This question is not that complicated. Evolution is a theory the same way gravity is a theory. The amount of evidence for evolution is massive, and it just makes sense, you see it all around you. The evidence for a mystical spirit world or a god is anecdotal at best. For me, given the choice between the spirit world and the real world, I'll take the real one.

    • John Dunbar 10+

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      Oct 10 2012: Daniel and Pat, this is all just subjective hocus pocus it doesn't mean anything. Let me try one on for size, we were all born inside the belly of a tiny and tumultuous ant, through a bizarre unknowable interaction we were shifted through a window into another universe where we will dwell until we die and go back into the belly of the ant only to repeat the process.

      If there is a soul where is it? Does a rabbit have a soul, a lion, an earthworm? Please look at the science of the brain more and more it demonstrates that the brain is at the helm of experience, perception, sensory information, emotion, thought etc...
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        pat gilbert 50+

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        Oct 10 2012: A while back we were talking about out of body experiences. When you have experienced this you KNOW the facts on this subject and that no amount of psychobabble explains this other than you is a spirit. Spare me your Pavlovian yik yak it just ain't so...

        • John Dunbar 10+

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          Oct 10 2012: You may or may not be right. I think science produces some interesting results. Michael Persinger is a neuroscientist who created the god helmet. What it does is it stimulates the temporal lobes with a slight magnetic pulse, test subjects report having an out of body experience or disassociation.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet
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        pat gilbert 50+

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        Oct 10 2012: Yes that is very interesting...

        I was not wearing a "god helmet". The only person that can say if I was right or not is ME, me thinks that your opining about what someone else experienced is a professional inability, in other words you psychs cannot pull your head out of your ass long enough to actually LISTEN.

        Now here is the thing I was looking for some friends of mine that I could not find, by use of this out of body experience I was able to locate them and walk directly to them about 3 miles away. Another poster told a story of friend who was missing in the Himalayas. They had been searching for him for days finally they talked to a Buddhist monk who told them exactly where to look and they found him at that location.

        • John Dunbar 10+

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          Oct 10 2012: Pat, notice i never once claimed to know what you experienced, we cant swap consciousness, at least not yet. I simply offered a scientific explanation of disassociation or an out of body experience. There are all sorts of experiences like you report, notice I said you may or may not be correct, you will never ever see or hear me claim science has a complete understanding of the brain, not sure if its possible. I think its a bit of a scary and intriguing proposition, but either way thats another topic. I think your experience could probably be explained without a "spirit" and i will continue to look for an answer that is less convoluted. Maybe language is the problem here I wouldn't say i have had an out of body experience, but I have had a similar experience that Is almost impossible for me to convey.
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        pat gilbert 50+

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        Oct 10 2012: No they can't. I know this contrary to everything psych but ...

        I think these experiences not only demonstrate that there is a spiritual element to this aggregate aka human beings, but that we are spirits.

      • daniel hehir 20+

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        Oct 10 2012: Brian,

        You can't think of it spatially. Drop that illusion. That's a common illusion so don't feel bad.

        The rabbit, the lion, the earthworm all do have a soul. Their soul however is not individualized as is yours and mine. They have a group soul. A shared soul being. The "soul being" of the lion is one soul being sharing all lion beings. Our soul being is ours and ours alone.

        • John Dunbar 10+

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          Oct 10 2012: Daniel, don't think of what spatially? The soul? Let me guess its immaterial? Believe me I don't feel bad for not getting your unprovable or disprovable take on this subject. Science can prove that quantum fields exist, black holes exist, and a whole host of other mysterious and bizarre actions of the universe exist, yet science has been trying to find the soul for years now and well, you know the results so far....Im not saying it isn't possible because it certainly is, but all of science is pointing to the soul existing as a metaphor. I don't come on here and say this stuff out of some sadistic attempt to cause existential death of believers, I say it because of the unyielding theme in history of people claiming to know divinity in an attempt to gain power.

          "They have a group soul. A shared soul being. The "soul being" of the lion is one soul being sharing all lion beings. Our soul being is ours and ours alone." How can you know this? Why doesn't the lion have an individualized soul?

      • daniel hehir 20+

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        Oct 10 2012: Brian,

        We have discussed this topic together before. Here's a fresh link to what Newsweek printed about Dr. Eben Alexander's NDE. He happens to be a neurosurgeon. Take a look at it and tell me what you think.

        http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html

        • John Dunbar 10+

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          Oct 10 2012: I think he describes some very interesting and beautiful possibilities. I have no doubt he experienced what he experienced, what I do doubt is that the brain was uninvolved. People who report NDE's sounds almost identical to people who hallucinate on DMT. Stunningly enough it occurs in the brain naturally.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4T5LduZ9vg

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