chen xin

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why money money money ?money !why ?do we really need money ?

how many people are burdened of money . without money can't we live a life full of happiness you know money is not a natural thing ,
i find out that money is one of the most popular words that used on ted..compared to money .i am more about to talk about the nature or enery

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    Oct 1 2012: "how many people are burdened of money ."

    none, actually. all the things you attribute to money is actually not related to money at all. money is just a mean to calculate the relative scarcity of goods. if your life is too much determined by money, in fact it is determined by getting scarce resources. if you get rid of money, you don't get rid of the problem, if there is any. there still will be scarce goods, and those goods have to be distributed somehow.

    so in short, anyone blaming money for anything can't see the forest for the trees. either think one step ahead, or stop thinking altogether, because shallow thinking does not lead anywhere.
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      Oct 1 2012: What Krisztian says is IMHO totally right.
      People with no money might look for it. Buy a big car, fancy watch, Armani jeans and so forth.
      But people with lots of money realize money was "cool" up to a certain point. Check Maslow's pyramid, you need something else once money is out of the happiness equation because you have enough of it.
      And yes, I firmly believe you can be happy with little money, provided you do what you love.
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        Oct 2 2012: So Bruno, if I understand what you're saying, using money to satisfy higher level needs - nonphysical needs - is a misdirection of energy. Would you agree that money, used to satisfy survival needs - Maslow's first two levels - is appropriate?
        I would argue that those lower level needs are really human rights, and should be guaranteed to all humans.
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          Oct 2 2012: The two lower level survival and safety needs of Maslow's hierarchy were never guaranteed to any living human being until mankind himself made them a "moral" guarantee. Prior to that, when you were born, you hoped your "parents" provided for you long enough so you could acquire the skills to provide for your own survival and security. Then you went out into the world and tried to do that. If you succeeded, you lived to pass your genes on to the next generation. If you didn't, oh well.

          Man himself established the idea of Human Rights. Prior to money, if the society believed in that concept, all the resources were shared amongst least to the level of ensuring everyone as a MINIMUM met their survival and security needs. But even then, the distribition was not totally equal. Some got "more" while others got "less". Yet even THEN, some Humans violated that "ideal" concept, and acted in ways to plunder other Men to take away ALL of their resources.

          Money is just a tool. It is used to keep score. Whether or not Man himself wants to abide by any Human Rights ideals will be up to Man, regardless of the tool used to keep score. Krisztian and Bruno got it right.
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          Oct 2 2012: hello Rick Ryan
          do you think that we huamn beings will get the equal goods more or less in the final ?
          and i agree with you ,that most people are born and be the owner of how much they will have because of their parents at least in china >
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          Oct 2 2012: No Jeff,
          I cited Maslow's pyramid just as an example. Money in that case would be a tool like Ryan said to achieve a goal (which is something else than money)
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          Oct 2 2012: hello Bruno
          I dont totally agree with you . you know some people are quiet while some people are much louder .there is something strange
          i dont know weather you know or not ..after the ww2 Germany had a rapid development of the reason is that german are hardworking and have the spirit of it is an except of the pyramid.
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          Oct 4 2012: just think of the pyramidal scheme but as a flat one where the top moves arround freely on the base depending of what zone of the base is more hard working and wealthy so we all are the pyramid becouse we come from the base and grow up with the help of the others so the base is nature than human kind and than there can be a lot of pyramid tops moving arround but always one will be the higher in value of the effort of the community that is "beneath" so does not matter where you are from becouse we all achieved our goal together. Is a matter of perception of the results human kind have but also the damages that makes to the base which is our Earth.
          See also my post here. Read also this becouse with my idea the name of the currency does not have any importance but the value of the community effort that use it to circulate that currency. So the currency can be also just of group of 10 people that work hard then they unite the effort with other 15 that also have another value of their effort so we in some way measure the value of our effort as the others see it and appreciate it becouse they need it and use it.
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    Oct 1 2012: Money is the meduim of exchange; it's all about the value that is in the paper. It is what we pay for goods and services, that is why we can not do without it in the current economic system.
    I think the major problem we face as humanity is our effort to make more money by any means. When the acquisition of wealth becomes an obsession, it brings out the worst in human beings. Such a person hurts himself or herself, and also hurts other people.

    Chen, even the issue of nature and energy that you mentioned are connected to the money issue. Becasue if industries and nations are not so concerned with monetary gains (as top priority), they would take the issue of environmental degradation seriously.
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        Josh S

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        Oct 1 2012: 1st point- there's no such thing as unlimited wealth because theres a limit to goods and because of that, a limit on wealth and because of that, a limit on power

        2nd point- you just supported what Anjorin said... read AND understand what they say before you critisize
      • Oct 1 2012: Unlimited wealth is impossible on physical grounds, but that's not really the point, you can still have so much wealth compared to someone else that it might as well be infinite (giving you near infinite power).

        It is a mistake to think that money can be decoupled from power. Money is not just a medium of exchange, it's also a medium of power, always has been and always will be because the size of your share of the money pie is proportional to the size of the resource (wealth) pie you could in theory acquire using your money. If you control 50% of the money you may own only 1% of the resources but you could at any point decide to flood the market with your money and acquire 50% of the resources, and that's power (even the mere possibility of you being able to pull off something like that is a source of power in itself).
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      Oct 2 2012: Thought experiment: IF human survival needs - those two lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy - were assured for every human, what would that do to greed and avarice? I contend that MOST folk, if they had their survival needs met, would not succumb to greed.
      Greed and the pursuit of money, I would argue, is a function of a scarcity model of economics. The 500+ year old economic system we live with no longer serves human needs. It requires a major make-over.
      Let's start by examining how we determine who gets to claim the results of increased productivity.
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        Oct 2 2012: i totally agree with you at this point .most of us can have our survival meet .why would we purauit much more if so ..then it has turn into greed .then something bad will happen ..just as i said above
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          Oct 3 2012: Many think the Holy Bible teaches that money is evil. What the Holy Bible actually says is quite different, QUOTE: "They that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the LOVE [my emphasis] of money is the root of all evil:. . . " I Timothy 6:9, 10 (KJV).
          As you say, Mr. Xin, "something bad" happens when people become driven by their LOVE for money. Thank you!
  • Oct 15 2012: I think a lot of people are beaten-down, dumbed-down, or boxed-in.
    Do you never borrow a neighbor's rake? Do you ever give or get gifts, hand-me-downs, or heirlooms? Not many people donate time to help a neighbor or a soup-kitchen. These activities need no money.

    There is no need of money; there is only lack of ingenuity creativity or faith in others.
    People have a low, little view of their true worth. They can only find value in externalities, (money, cars, being a Democrat, etc.).

    If you think there is a better way than money, then actively explore more options. Help others explore them. I think we can do much much better without money.
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    Oct 7 2012: 如果您希望能幸福地频繁,您必须使也会经常变化。
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      Oct 7 2012: i dont know what you are saying . you must use it properly
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        Oct 7 2012: Those who are happy always must change within their lives to be this way. Happiness requires work to be still. People were happy with Mao but now they want money.
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      Oct 7 2012: to a large degree you are right that now people are happy with money .

      but i think money only can make you happy at a range of certian .while if you want to find much more should do for your dream . at least i am a person like that .

      how much do you know about mao.thank you very much for your explain
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        Oct 7 2012: I have read the entire history of China. Mao had many supporters in the US during the 70's.

        I read personal accounts of students who moved to the villages and live with the people to make their way better, to grow food, to make medicine. Chinese Students are heroes of China. They suffered along with the Villagers. They did this to because Chairman Mao asked them to in order to bring the pheasants our of poverty.
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          Oct 7 2012: yeah , you know now we evaluate mao. mao has both contribution and mistakes .
          he starts the culture revolution ,and being used by SI REN BANG because of it
          handreds of thousands famous person died,and many acient wonders are destoryed .at this said i hate him
          while howere ,he saved china ,he leads the chinese to the i respect him
          and what you said above is one part of culture revolution .and this is another reason why mao send students o the village.

          about this matter.chinese leaders like deng xiao ping evaluate it .. it is totally wrong .
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    Oct 6 2012: what life do you want? and how can we achieve it .now it is and it is .
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    Oct 6 2012: I think:
    Money can buy us easily:
    (1) Good things: ---- Necessities for our happy living at/below its OPTINAL POINT.
    (2) Bad things: ---- All kinds of silly INVALID HAPPINESS, including junk foods, alcoholic drinks, tobacco, drugs, …. crimes, wars, global warming, humankind self-extinction.
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    Oct 5 2012: i have another question .how much money do you want ,if you can have
    the more the better ? or just meet our need .? and why
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      Oct 6 2012: I think:
      Actually, people need money at/below its OPTIMAL POINTS.

      The optimal points ought to be the income of about $6,000/year in US (1/10 of Gallup’s) and < $600/year in Vanuatu (Nef’s) respectively.
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        Oct 6 2012: can you live in america with a salary of 6000$per year ?i dont think so
        while you say people need money below its optimal points?why

        are there anything that stop you to have more money .
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          Oct 7 2012: Yes.
          (1) I think so if I quit most kinds of INVALID happiness.
          (2) Because $6000/year is above "optimal point" if one knows spending money VALIDLY.
          (3) INVALID happiness stops me to have more money.
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        Oct 7 2012: yeah i agree with you that invalid happiness is not necessary .we should do that because that cost our energy ,while like what you said we should laugh,we just sit stil every day nothing to do , it will cost least of our energy .but who can .you just stop thinking ,always sleep is ok

        so we should do soemthing so that we can earn and we are all human beings we cant always sleep we shoud chat ,communicate and eat , that is human beings .right .

        i think you are cost your energy here on ted .you should save it ?
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          Oct 7 2012: I deeply understand the situation you are in.
          You are right and I hope it will change soon!
          Good luck!
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        Oct 7 2012: i dont know what you are saying ? since you are w,do you know C.
        i may guess you are a chinese .right
    • Oct 6 2012: "i have another question .how much money do you want"

      Most people just want security: have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of your life should you become unemployed today. Some people will never have enough as long as someone else on this planet has more, these people are the businessmen, executives, speculators, criminals and economists of this world, because they are so influential in the world of economics all the literature assumes everyone is like this (that people only get out of bed for money and get out faster and faster if you give them more and more money), while there is evidence that they are a minority with specific psychological issues.
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        Oct 6 2012: why that .cant we live that we just can feed our family and every day we go to work after that we go back home and have meals with our family isn't it happinese .if we all want much money .how can we do that it is not real .i think money just can meet our need is ok .

        can money settle all the problems ? how do you think
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      Oct 7 2012: 在美国每个人都想要一个高尚人,但他们不知道如何将这种方式。 他们认为钱能给他们带来快乐和高贵。

      • Oct 7 2012: Why have you gone Chinese?
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        Oct 7 2012: i think most of us like money while if you also like money i think it is your problem .actually i do not like money .i think my dream is at the first , i live for my dream .and also

        i dont not think that money bring us the ture pleause . when i have made something that is the time i am happy .money in china is very important for most of the people .you know .we are the same

        oh i dont talk about money why am i again talking about it with you

        i think you are falling in love with chinese .right ?

        my Moonstroller .
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          Oct 7 2012: My Moonstroller... My granddaughter calls me My Johnny, my grandpa. :)
          When I was young I hated money. Now I am old and need it.

          Money serves a purpose but it is no substitute for happiness.

          我国moonstroller... 我孙女呼叫我,我爷爷。 :) 在我小时候,我不喜欢钱。 现在我老和需要。 货币供应,但它是没有任何东西可以替代的幸福。
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        Oct 7 2012: that is a good point that Money serves a purpose but it is no substitute.
        i love it
        i dont know why i just called you my Moonstroller .

        and i think i need your help .can you show me some websites like ted.i want to learn more about science and project and design.maybe a forum is ok .
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          Oct 7 2012: Is your math skills good?
          Do they not offer such things in Hai Kou?

          You can try here at Stanford University:

          Here you can enroll and take courses for certification for free.

          MIT is a good place to learn Physics. Prof. Susskind, my favorite works at Stanford.

          Project design I do not know much. What kid of projects?

          Chen, you are welcome to join my forum if you like
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        Oct 7 2012: i dont think so
        no ,i must find myself .

        oh i have tried that website .i just can not get though i dont know why .
        project is something about building and bridge .i love this subject .
        and since i join the ted my mailbox is closed down
        it drives me mad , .
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        Oct 7 2012: it didnt work . maybe it is the system problem
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          Oct 7 2012: Did you try to email me?
          I clicked on the link in my post and I go there. No problem. Perhaps China firewall?
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        Oct 7 2012: maybe it is .i think there is a supervision on the internet .many websites i can not get through.
        it is a pity .
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          Oct 7 2012: One day it will be different. One day.
          Can you email me?

          I know it is getting late in your home.

          Chen. There is something you can do but I think you should ask your parents or the school counselor first.

          It is possible to get permission to unlock a website in the US so you can view and join the forum. You have to contact the Chinese Internet censorship bureau and ask them permission to allow my site to be visible from your side of the firewall.

          Sometimes they allow this.
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        Oct 8 2012: i will try .i will find some other ways to email you if i can

        and maybe it is a question of my computer.whatever,i will give you answer as sonn as possible.
  • Oct 4 2012: Chen,

    Do you really want to know the answer?
    send me your money I will tell you all you need to know about money!

    we don't need money, we want money!

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      Oct 4 2012: @Edwin Nazarian. Cute, but your response doesn't contribute much to the understanding of what money is and where it come from.
      • Oct 4 2012: Jeff,

        Oh, are you the one of these who believes that in 21st century we can live without money?

        If you are, then send me your money and I will tell you all about money you need to know.

        and as I read the question correctly it asks why we really need money.
        and that's why my response is this; (again, I repeat) we don't need money, we want money.

        there is a debate going on: MONEY or LIFE - I commented there too, a few weeks ago there was a question about money I gave a whole description of money. (you may found it on my profile, in Comments List)

        What is money? - for me it is a tool
        where it comes from? - here we need to talk about the History of Money (and not why do we need money)

        by now, I know you know that it is not strange to think that we can't buy bread without money, is it?
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          Oct 4 2012: @Edwin Nazarian, I am not "one of these" anything, and don't find it helpful to put labels on people wishing to engage in serious (and, sometimes, not so serious) discussion. Currently, I don't believe we, as a society and culture, can live without money. I SERIOUSLY believe that money is poorly understood by the vast majority of folk in our society, and that there needs to be significant monetary reform. We are living with a system that is more than 500 years old, and it no longer serves the needs of humanity in general.
          From your comments on this thread, there's not much depth to your views: "we don't need money, we want money." Need:want. For me, it doesn't contribute much to the conversation. I will look for your description of money in the other comments you posted. I would like to know what you think, and understand continuous repetition can be tedious.
          If someone took you up on your rhetorical proposition, to wit, "Send me your money and I will tell you all about money you need to know." What does that even mean?
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          Oct 4 2012: @Edwin Nazarian, I looked at your comments re: money on the other thread you mentioned, and browsed your profile. We probably share more than is apparent in these exchanges. RE: money as a tool, I see how it can be seen that way, since, like a tool, it can be used to accomplish something, or rather to get someone else to accomplish something by paying them to do that something. More precisely, that describes a FUNCTION of money as opposed to a description of what money is. On a more fundamental level, I've come to the conclusion (for now) that money used to be a commodity, and has "evolved" into an information system. Since I, like you, find repeating myself somewhat tedious, I would direct you to my other comments in this thread, if you are interested in my thoughts on the subject.

          PS - another thing we share...I was certified in NLP 30 some years ago, but haven't practiced the craft since then.
      • Oct 5 2012: Sir,

        Thanks for your comment I do value it very highly.
        I admit that I have been less serious in my comment. but even in that way I have given some thoughts away. and I now believe that you have seen the point.

        Some of us goes to work for money.
        some of us lives for making money.
        some of us doesn't care so much.
        some of us worries about money.
        some of us thinks about money.

        in the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you have but what you do with what you have.
        there is nothing wrong about it when one does what one loves, and yet that makes him money- Ex: Bill Gates, Stieve Jobs (RIP), Richard Branson, These people are driven not only making money, but making difference in other live, and their actions make them money.

        on the other hand, M. Gandhi, was a successful lawyer in South Africa, and he too could get rich, make more money, etc: but he gave his wealth away to free himself from material slavery.
        I believe you read Tao te Ching - there is less about money.

        to me talking about money is as endless as talking about religions and politics, because as we all are uniquely different we all have different ideas of money and its use.
        Which idea is right or wrong, who is right or wrong? my answer is this, NOBODY and EVERYBODY

        now, Do I need money? - YES, why? to buy food (because I am enslaved by my needs)
        Do I want money? - YES, why? to help other to meet their needs - financially - (like Bill Gates does)

        My need for money is different compared to my want - I am just one single person I have different ideas of Money and its use, imagine there are 7 Billion x 2 (wants and needs) ideas out there.

        it is too late to intent to go back and live without money - it s not for us. (it is as asking my teenager students to go back and live without smartphones - it means no life for them)

        as the saying goes on: NO MONEY NO HONEY!
        today's marriage is all about economy as well: "You don't have money? you are not my Honey"

        Welcome to 21st century!
    • Oct 4 2012: Hi Edwin
      Umm, we not only want money, but we need it—inevitably, and sometimes desperately.
      Without it, we can't eat.
      We can't settle down.
      We can't buy necessities.
      Simply put, we can’t live without money.
      Besides, unfortunately, people around you look down on you if you don’t have money.
      That's the reality.
      But as you say, we want money because we’re not satisfied with our lives with lack of property. We crazily want more money and we become greedy as if we’re slaves of it. We surely need to find a way to live happily and meaningfully without a lot of fortune, but at least we need to have enough money to survive.

      Chen, you say,
      “do we really money?”
      Apparently yes. Why do you ask?
      “why money money money ?”
      Yes, you perfectly made your point. I totally agree with you in that part.
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      Oct 5 2012: hi Edvin ,Elizabeth and Jeff
      first Edvin you ask me to send my money to you,i think i will let you down .my piont is we need money and also we should have more money ,but it doesn't mean that we can purchase monwy regardless of friend ship ,love and our personality dignity ,even our future and our life ,money is not the first thing we should purshase ,expect that we also have our dream our mental health .

      yes i think that i agree with jeff we should have much depth views about money .i think there needs to be significant monetary reform.right .under this system money is too hot ,and much of our humans passion has been attracted by leads to many social problems . maybe in the future we can put more our atteneion to the family and combution of our spirite

      and hi again Elizabeth .i think what you said is right .we need to settle down we need to buy houses we need to spend on necessities . also i think we can get much satistifatury when we buy many many things . while what i want to point out is that we cant just live for money , and we can not live for others many people may look down on me if i dont have many money .yeah but money is not the only thing that can let others admire you ,you reputation ,your characristic your dream ,many many can also conquer others .what i really mean is that we should lower the enthic of money

      and you ask me to whom my question .actually i just see too many wards about money just as i said above ,so i give the question .i think we really need a deeper thought of money.

      i think i love my dream more than my money.
      • Oct 5 2012: Chen

        I appreciate your thoughts and comment,

        I would like to watch these two TEDx Talks:

        they don't talk about money, but about our needs and wants and live in General.

        surely living in this industrialised world we can't live without money,
        now there are laws, : We can't hunt freely (as it was done 100s of years ago)
        now there is more cities then villages with farmers - so the Agricultural land is reduced, so we don't have enough space for our own vegs and fruits, we must buy it.

        you know, these would happen, and this is what called Evolution, (I believe so)

        Money has a long history, it have been used and seen as a unite of exchange... throughout of history it got deeper and deeper in our mind. it some how managed to be inseparable part of our daily live (now we never go out without money)

        When I was a student, I had a tile hanging on my wall, with a writing on it, (it was in Dutch) it read something like this; THERE ARE MANY WHO HAS GOT A LOT, BUT NO ONE HAS GOT IT ENOUGH.

        You can find the History of Money in wikipedia, if you want to know.

        I have spent a lot of time with people who talked about nothing but MONEY, and I spent times with people who had got nothing and didn't even want to talk about money.

        In Southern Spain there is small hippy community, it exists almost over 20 years, people come and go. I went there to see these people, I was amazed how they lived among a capitalised society.
        it was like a middle age village, (one like you have seen in Robin Hood film) they were from every where, Germany, Holland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Russia (you name) - they were living on basic needs - Water, Food, Shelter - women were even giving birth there in that conditions.

        MONEY? what money? who cares?! no Materialism, no Capitalism, Love and Peace!
        check the name in google: BENEFICIO
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          Oct 5 2012: i can see the change of your thought ,and also i think you have had a deeper thought of money .
          in my thought there is a idea that what is happiness it is a process of purchase something .i think when i have plenty of money ,i wont think that money is that important
          just as if i am short i want to grow much taller ,when i have an apple i mayjust want a know our desire is endless just as you said THERE ARE MANY WHO HAS GOT A LOT, BUT NO ONE HAS GOT IT is the money .

          so just put the money as anything else ,you wont think money is strange .they are the same .
        • Oct 5 2012: Hola, Ed
          Tienes razón. El tiempo es oro.
          Again, it seems to me that people with a huge fortune can have much more opportunities to enjoy their leisure time than others. (That doesn't mean the poor can't enjoy their time) "Life sometimes can be too serious, we better take it a bit less serious, have more fun, and success and money will come."
          Yes, we should have more fun, indeed! But what’s the point in telling the poor to enjoy their time and have some fun if they aren’t able to afford it? I’m not saying that we always need to be serious. That’s too boring and not awesome.
          If we donate our money to help people, it means we give them at least a hope. Time is money, but time can’t give them food or habitats unless they have real money. While being idealistic, I also try to be realistic not to ignore the reality I face every day. I don’t want to be just an onlooker.
          Anyway, disfrutar de su fin de semana!
      • Oct 5 2012: ".i think we really need a deeper thought of money.

        i think i love my dream more than my money. "

        :) There you go, Chen.
        I love your attitude, thanks for your reply.
        • Oct 5 2012: Elisabeth,

          Life sometimes can be too serious, we better take it a bit less serious, have more fun, and success and money will come.

          it is said: Time is Money! (I believe many will agree as it is an old saying)

          but it was uncompleted: "Time is more valuable than Money, you have make a lot of money, but you will never be able to make a lot of time"

          it is to say: you can get more money, but you will never get more time!

          so enjoy your TIME and your weekend!

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          Oct 6 2012: hello ELIZABETH AND EDWIN

          Life sometimes can be too serious, we better take it a bit less serious, have more fun, and success and money will come.I appreciate it

          i do think that we have a destiny. we can not control what will happen live a current life .we should not think too much about money . if the destiny fall down on us .we will have a exceptal suprise .that is great .if not well.we can just do live as what life it is . i dont think there is a big difference b etween poor and the rich .they all live a life .they can all have many friends,they can all have love have happiness .
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    Oct 4 2012: Read also this becouse with my idea the name of the currency does not have any importance, but the value of the community effort that use it to circulate that currency. So the currency can be also just of group of 10 people that work hard, than they unite the effort with other 15 that also have another value of their effort so we in some way measure the value of our effort as the others see it and appreciate it becouse they need it and use it.
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      Oct 4 2012: hello again lulian
      can you help me to build a website . i want to build one involve all the people on ted .and talk about something about computer
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        Oct 4 2012: Yes of course when you say "help first and you not say I want first" I am with you helping you. Just write me what you need and I evan host it free for you if is not a commercial one or you help also in some way. But ... there is always a but :) . I think Internet should regulate in some way the pages it has becouse we use a lot o resources for the same ideas we have and we think about. Just see how many web sites around are doing the same job and instead of gather people they divide them in small groups. Internet is for gathering people not divide them so this was conceived first. But in its complexity now is doing the opposite. I have an idea how to regulate all this things that make us fall appart and also to not waste so much resources. I will open a debate on this. see this
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          Oct 4 2012: actually i am a new about computer i know nothing about computer .i think i should read some books abut this .after that i will write to you .thank you very much .
          i am looking forwald to your debate.
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        Oct 4 2012: If you need help I am here. I used to be a tech lab teacher so try me because is faster than reading a lot of books on Internet or not. Is good to read about but is better to have someone helping you with issues and guide you to resources suitable for you so you learn fast and not waste resources in searching.
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          Oct 4 2012: thank you very much .ok how can i strat my page .i will make a plan .about the exact things and the structure .and the design .thank you again .i will connect you
          if i met problem .
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        Oct 4 2012: Good, if you want to start making web pages like a profession you have to learn much and a good start is here and if not, there are plenty web resources but a first step is to make a plan of what kind of web page you want. Is a simple one, a dynamic with database, or a complex portal. After that, you chose the tools and i can help you also with this depending of what you have already. Now you have free resources to make a web page and more complex and paid. Usually they are more complex and more money, few complex less money but also free one a lot.
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          Oct 4 2012: i think i am stuck ,it is a not easy thing for me to do that . all english , you know my english is not very well .many cites i can not understand . but i will try .thanks again
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    Oct 3 2012: Yes and no. Nothing actually costs money, what things cost are natural resources and effort. Money is nothing more than a volatile exchange mechanism for these things, which in our culture is almost indispensable, because we think in terms of property, employer and labourer. But that doesn't mean that money will exist forever. If for instance one day we realize that the natural resources of the world or the universe for that matter are not subject to property, as in the oil underneath our feet is not ours because we happen to live above it the same way as oxygen in my yard is not mine because it happened to float into my yard and we evolve technologically to the point where machines do all the work, money will become obsolete. Till then however, I need to go bottle that oxygen and make some money... So that tomorrow I can buy petrol.
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    Oct 3 2012: @Edward Long (continued)
    Even if your bank account reads zero, and you have no money in your pocket, you can still buy your eggs with a credit card. You would be sending information that your negative balance would be offset in the future by your labor or a product you would sell.
    Some misguided folk see this change to an information system as a problem, and consequently want to go backward to a gold standard. This would be disastrous. One of the beauties of money as an information system is it gives anyone who contributes productively to the economy an equal claim on that productivity. A gold standard (or any standard that sets money as a commodity), encourages hoarding of gold (or other commodity): cornering the market.
    In summary, I believe it's important to perceive money as an information system, and not as a commodity. The information it contains is each person's claim on overall productivity.

    Enjoying the conversation. Thanks.
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    Oct 3 2012: @Edward Long, I, too, am a novice re: economics. Perhaps the only difference between us in that regard is that I perceived that most of the world's problems involved money in some form or other. So, about a year ago, I started to look into the questions of "What is money?" and "Where does it come from?" Until then, I accepted the commonly held view of most folk in our society, much of which is reflected in your legitimate response above.
    Part of that world view is that money is based on something material; that money is a commodity. While this is historically the case, my belief is that money has "evolved" (for lack of a better term) into an information system. Take your example cited above. Your labor, the REAL value in the transaction between you and your employer, is given in exchange for a claim on the productivity resulting from that labor. You produced something that didn't exist before, and that has value. Your employer gives you something in exchange. That could be something material, like a bushel of zucchini. But you don't need a bushel of zucchini (who would), so you need something that carries value in the larger society: you need money. Though he or she may give you a check, that wouldn't be necessary in today's world. Your employer could also have done an electronic funds transfer, which is, again, dealing only in information. 150 year ago, you probably would have demanded metal coin: something material. No longer necessary. THERE IS NOTHING MATERIAL BEHIND TODAY'S MONEY! THERE IS ONLY DEBT. True, you can go to the bank and get pictures of dead presidents on a piece of paper, and this fiat currency, by law is legal tender. This piece of paper is, indeed, physical, but it is not "backed" by anything tangible. It only has the perception of value, and your choice to use paper rather than plastic, or swiping your smart phone, is a choice to convenience the outgoing modality of exchange.
  • Oct 3 2012: no way! if we destroy all orginizations we will have no way to output some of our feelings. look at AA meetings for an example: if there was no AA orginization people would'nt have anyway to tell people about there feelings. Same with youth centers to keep youths of drugs. if there was'nt any newspapers how would we know what was going on in the world?
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      Oct 4 2012: what you said is one aspect .
      while many government are very wealthy.their people are very poor .they take money from people .while they they don;t really produce .if we distory them ,we people may not feed them .and we can get much better.and we ca have more and control more
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        Oct 4 2012: Chen do not use word destroy because can harm you or other and just use improve them by making them aware of the problems. If you destroy immediately an organization evan government will make a lot of harm to people that depend on it and this way you do not have a transition and people will be disoriented. Measure your words ...... for your sake of mind
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    Oct 3 2012: another question if we destory all the organistions ,will we live a natural life and much better for our mental health ?
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    Oct 2 2012: If I do not give you some form of liquid currency in return for goods or services you render to me how will you get paid?
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      Oct 3 2012: i am thinking about it .maybe we can just write it down .and next time i will charge the services and goods from you
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        Oct 3 2012: You are responsible to provide food, clothing and shelter for yourself and for those who depend upon you. In a small, primitive commune you might manage that by barter alone. Very few of the 7-billion Earthlings live so.
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          Oct 3 2012: sounds that i am living in the originally,
          well .all right maybe we should develope in this direction
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        Oct 3 2012: In this world, as it functions today, we do need money. If you are advocating the restructuring of society to an agriculture/craftsman/service-type barter system that is another question. Do we need money? Yes. Is there another socio/cultural construct that could function without cash? Probably.
    • Oct 3 2012: "If I do not give you some form of liquid currency in return for goods or services you render to me how will you get paid?"

      You can be paid in goods and services, you can declare my consumption of your goods and services with some authority who will then pay you. We can both be on a living income and just exchanging goods and services for convenience/fun. Though of course liquid currency doesn't have to mean money as we know it.
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    Oct 2 2012: Money is food... That's it. If you don't want to farm your own food, you have to provide a service, to someone who does farm... They have to have a means for proving that you contributed to their community, or else why would a farmer farm for you, rather than himself, or herself?
    • Oct 3 2012: Of course you have to return favors, but that doesn't have to happen through an intermedium currency that has all the properties of modern money.
  • Oct 2 2012: "We can't do without it (money) in our current economic system" !!!!!!
    That is exactly what more and more people are forced to do, through intentionally created poverty and what the majority wind up doing is trying to solve their problems without money; because they have none!!!

    We don't need a monetary system. A monetary system needs inequality, poverty, slavery, greed, crime, war and death to survive. I hardly think these would be seven needs of the population of the world today, or ever for that matter.

    Things don't cost money. They cost people. People jump in to help after tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis and other catastrophes that can naturally happen. The majority aren't paid. They do it to help others.

    We don't need money. Those who control it (control us), need us to continue believing we do need money. Without it, they will die, and so they should.

    Close to 100% of the evil problems humans face would disappear without money. Just as we have some time to prepare in how to live in a climate-changed world (with empathy, compassion and so on for all others), we have some time to learn how to somewhat gracefully, prepare to live without monetary systems. Imagine, that so many would be shocked by peace, and the end of all these horrible conditions humans are degraded with by those in power.

    So shocked in fact, that they can't imagine life without horror. That's pretty bad, sad and we know it doesn't have to be.
    Are you one who believes in "collateral damage?"
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      Oct 2 2012: it is a little hard to catch what you said .
      i am wondering what would the world be like if we hadnt used the money at the begining
      would it be better .i think so
      i totally agree with you on that Close to 100% of the evil problems huamns face would disappear without money .
      and another all the orginations like government ,prsion,should be left out .only that can we achieve more peace and more equal
      what is collateral damage .i am interested in . can you discribe or give some materials about it ?
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      Oct 2 2012: I assume you don't farm all of your own food Random Chance, do you? Okay, so... You need a monetary system, to trick farmers into doing your share of the farm labor...

      You don't like to talk about that side of "community", and "working together", and "sharing"... because what you really want, is to not work, and get food... Or to work an easy job, in air conditioning, and get food... So for all your talk about hating money... You desperately need it, and without it, ted, and everything you love wouldn't exist.

      Without money, people would labor to provide themselves with food... no one else.
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        Oct 3 2012: what if we human beings have a high spirit . we all like to devote to researching and learning just as we like money . do we still need money ?
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          Oct 5 2012: "We all like to devote to researching and learning just as we like money." That's the problem... We all want to research and learn... We all want to make art... None of us want to farm and mine. Farming, and mining, allow art and research to exist.

          "What if we human beings have a high spirit?" Yeah... but... We don't. High sex drive, strong desire to feel safe and secure. Distrust of the other... We've got those things... High spirit?... Cite an example of this in human history?

          Examine your own mind... Would you like to eat without farming, if you could? Would you like to own a house, without laboring to build one? Of course... Who wouldn't? Deep down inside, for all of our claims of moral values, we all want the same thing... Something for nothing. Unfortunately energy cannot be created, only converted, through work.
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        Oct 5 2012: i think you are wrong ,why dont i want to farm .why dont i do some reasech about farm .why dont i farm at the same time reseach .why dont ? i like it .not all of us like cars big houses,we people have different interests not like what you think .Zuckerberg is very wealth ,every day he wears the same
        clouthes ,he live a house not like a palace .

        while i agree with you that we huamns do not have a high i use" what if " that is my suppose. i hope one day that we can

        yes i think i like a house ,while if they help me build a house ,i can do something else to them
        maybe i can build a car as a return to them . i am not a person just charging and do not return.
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          Oct 5 2012: "yes i think i like a house ,while if they help me build a house ,i can do something else to them
          maybe i can build a car as a return to them . i am not a person just charging and do not return"

          You have just described exactly why you need money. Money is exchanged for the service you provide for the community. You can then exchange your help for the community, for another human beings help.

          If there was no medium of exchanging and proving help, I would have no way of knowing if you charge, and do nothing in return. Money is simply a way of proving the exchange of a good or service. Without proof, there is only trust. If everyone trusted everyone, manipulators, and evil people would quickly take control by lying.

          Mark Zuckerberg could sell his stock, and create sustainable farming communities for millions of poor and starving people around the world... Don't let his T shirts fool you.
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        Oct 5 2012: while you know with money .i think we wont live a life of better .how many things we do with money we have banks ,and we have tax money. we are cheated by banks they just use money born money ,they do not actually prodauce .their money are all from us ,i think we raised them

        if they come to produce i think we may have a much more goods ,and we can have more propety each . they are just like the insects bite us . they don't be respionable for our life .

        so i think we should think more about money .it brings us more benifets or more harm.
        should we find a new way to solve it
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    Gail .

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    Oct 2 2012: I believe that when we do away with money, we will do away with all of humankind's social ills. When enough people know how horrible capitalism is, they will demand an end to it.
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      Oct 2 2012: Ted Lover suppose capitalism is ended then which system will you support??
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        Gail .

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        Oct 2 2012: The "Gift Economy". It is a moneyless social system that systemically encourages cooperation and allows the individuals' and group's talents to come to the fore for the benefit of the whole and the 1.
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          Oct 3 2012: Please can you recommend me any authentic book regarding Gift Economy because its a new economic system to me.
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        Gail .

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        Oct 3 2012: Scroll down under the picture of the book cover and click on links for introduction and each chapter. Also available on Amazon for $
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    Oct 2 2012: Thanks for all the good comments. I just came across this thread, and it's a topic that interests me greatly.
    It's important to know what money is. Not what it does, viz serves as a medium of exchange, but what it really is in a more fundamental way.
    Historically, money has been a commodity, representing the material world. It was conceived and defined by the natural consequence of physical scarcity. That is what gave (and mostly still does) give money its value - its scarcity.
    What our culture needs to understand is that this neo-Malthusian idea of scarcity no longer serves human needs. We (humankind) are at a transitional point equivalent to the understanding that the world is not really flat.
    Money has "evolved" from a commodity to an information system. Information, unlike physical goods, is not limited by scarcity. In fact, it is the turning point from a culture of scarcity to a culture of abundance. Making that logical leap is one of the biggest challenges we face as a species.
    So, what information does money convey? It conveys an entities' (individual, group, organization, business, etc.) claim on human productivity.
    Think about it. Humans used to use beads, shells, coins, paper money as mediums of exchange. This has evolved into credit/debit cards, and now we don't even need those (physically). Just type some numbers into your computer, and the exchange is made. Information. Claiming we (the US, or any entity) doesn't have enough money is equivalent to saying there's not enough zeros to put into a computer.
    Step one: changing our understanding that money is no longer a commodity, but information.
    Step two: what do you think?
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      Oct 2 2012: thank you very much for your reply and can share the same topic..
      why do we people do not like money because i think it is not s necessity ...without money we can also live a peace and natural life .
      while on the cantry money brought us hurt . i dont like the thing medium .because it is not a real ting ,i think it is a waste of resouce . rootly we do not need these things .it leads us out of the way of its natural .can you find another thing like money . and have the same founction and the same properties
      no .it leads us to the dark
      and another point wont you think that it complicate our life .since the money born we do too much useless things .and we waste too much things maybe at the begining it is a error .believe me without money we can live a much better life .money itself is a wrong thing
      it is the money that mess our life ! forture it is the commercial that mess our life
      what do you think of
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      Oct 3 2012: How does information get me a dozen eggs from the market?
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        Oct 3 2012: @Edward Long... Go to the store, pick up some eggs (might as well get a 6-pack while you're there), take your items to the cashier or self-check out, run your credit/debit card through the pos terminal, and the eggs, beer, etc are yours.
        You just sent INFORMATION through a network - NO gold, NO beads or shells, NOT EVEN PAPER REQUIRED! The information you sent was an adjustment in the debt that someone owes to the banks. ALL MONEY EXISTS ONLY AS DEBT. That's the current situation, and has been since the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. The only way money is created is if someone agrees to repay that money, WITH INTEREST. When that happens, the Banksters create the money, OUT OF THIN AIR, by making an accounting entry. The interest due IS NOT CREATED, just the money owed.
        The reform that needs to happen would take the Banksters out of the loop by having the US create money, as the Constitution provides for and as Lincoln did when he issued Greenbacks instead of borrowing money from NY bankers, who wanted 26%-33% interest. This money would or could be spent into the economy, no interest involved. Our national debt would go away, and the information exchanged would reflect your claim on productivity instead of a payment on someone's debt.
        We, as a culture, generally have no clue about how money is created and controlled, and the Banksters like it that way. It allows them to "steal" the productivity of others by manipulating the information. If you haven't already, see the movie Margin Call.
        Let's continue the conversation.

        PS - check those eggs before you exchange information to get them.
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          Oct 3 2012: I am not the brightest participant in a conversation about economics so forgive my oversimplification. If I don't get my paycheck from my employer and deposit it into my bank account the scanner at the egg store will not approve my purchase. I really don't see how the money I earned by my labor can be considered "information". Potential tangibility is needed in the equation. I can make what you call "information" (which is non-material, intangible) into something tangible by withdrawing Federal Reserve Notes from my bank account. Those notes, aka cash, are legal tender. If my bank balance is zero and my pockets are empty all the information in the world won't get me my eggs from the market. Where am I missing your logic?
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    Oct 2 2012: money is like an attractive girl .that mellions of people work for it .talk about it .they dream to own more of it
    and you know the Forbes ranking i think it is a wrong leading .if we dont do this we may achive more at other areas is like a huge magnet that atteacts too much of our attention
    we may have more scientific wys to live .to pursure our happiness our dream .
    you know how many couples divorced becouse of money ..and how many people fight against money
    and also when some people get wealth they begain to drop they throw out kindness love .and even their charatics .
    forthure... how many people because of money get into prison ,they steel they robbed .an even because of money they kill one another .
    this makes me think of a book named money is the original of evil .
    i am thinking bout trying to another way to reduce the impact that money bronght us .
    i think we get overed about money ..
    in china there is a crowed of people .they live a happy life they do not own much money
    and they dont not talk about money when you treat me once..maybe next time i treat you ,it is called social relationship..very happiness. i think they do not consider money as their they live a happy life
  • Oct 1 2012: we all need just one universal currency that we all use.
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      Oct 1 2012: why? we don't use a single bank, we don't have a single cellphone provider, we don't eat chocolate of the same make. why do we need money from a central source? how does it help?
      • Oct 1 2012: He was just saying we could make do with one currency (which is correct, we don't need currencies to compete with each other). That would make it easier to trade and it would hinder currency speculators.

        Btw, Krisztian, I would like to know what your definition of money is?


        It matters because "money" is such a vague word. A dollar, a food stamp and an energy credit are all mediums of exchange, but not everyone would call all of them to be money.
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          Oct 1 2012: i don't know if it worth really defining too precisely. i would go with:

          money is a commodity that is primarily or exclusively used as a medium of exchange. that is, we usually buy it not to use it but to buy something else with it.
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          Oct 2 2012: There's an interesting concept that money, as a claim on productivity, could be created and issued individually in our modern information rich world. This is the basic concept behind BitCoin. I think this concept points to the future. We need a better financial system than the one we've been living with for centuries.
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          Oct 2 2012: " food stamp and an energy credit are all mediums of exchange,"

          no, in my opinion, and here you are, i extend the definition: money also must be able to be freely sold and bought. a food stamp can only be received from government, can not be sold, and can only be used at certain places, then they should be returned to the issuer. this is not free use, so it is not money.

          however, cigarettes in a prison is money.

          and be reminded that there are gray areas. so definition must be vague on some level. what about a freely transferable coupon? what about a bond? for these to be money, we need to look at the usage pattern. people mostly buy to use or to resell? if the latter, it is money.
      • Oct 2 2012: Krisztian, thanks for clarifying. I agree with you that not all mediums of exchange are money. That is why I believe the world can do without money, even though I don't believe the world can do without a medium of exchange (for rationing purposes), at least not until we have a huge abundance of resources available for everyone (this could take centuries or it may never happen at all if the human population starts growing again in the future or humans will consciously decide not to consume all available natural resources as quickly as they can, to preserve ecosystems and resource reserves.)


        I'm not so sure the current system is inevitable: for one the only reason people let banks get away with their dirty tricks, using other people's money, is the fact that the government has agreed to back personal accounts to a certain degree, therefore the banks have a monopoly on keeping safe moderate amounts of money. The financial sector largely exists by the grace of the government (no doubt thanks to the financial sector lobbying and donating). The corporation itself is a legal construct propped ub by the state!

        I think in a truly unregulated society most people would opt out of currency and institutions that are subject to speculation. Nobody ever voted to give currency speculators the power to influence the purchasing power of unrelated millions, but it still happens because the state allows it and forces people to use the currency of the central bank.

        I'm not advocating getting rid of all governments, I'm merely saying that people didn't choose the system as it is today and now that it's here they don't get the choice to change it, so it's a bit of a stretch to assume every complex economy would come up with the same currency system.

        P.S. I'm talking about problems with transferable, saveable and investable money, not just the banking system. I do think most people (especially outside America) would prefer some kind of social dividend if they had the choice.
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          Oct 2 2012: the world can do without hamburgers. but if you let people do their stuff freely, hamburgers will be made, sold and bought. because there are people willing to consume and people willing to produce hamburgers, and we have the means to do so. hamburgers create satisfaction.

          similarly, money naturally emerges in a complex economy. money creates satisfaction.
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          Oct 2 2012: we were talking about money, not the current banking system and its unholy alliance with the state. these people hijacked and now control money, and practically outlawed all other forms of money, knowing that no person in the right mind will choose theirs. but that is not the problem of money. the problem is banks and the state. getting rid of money does not solve that problem.
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          Oct 2 2012: @:John Smith, I agree with much of what you say. I've also learned in my investigations of money that money currently exists ONLY as debt. If all debt could be paid off (it can't), there would be no money. This monetary system is designed so that the creation and control of money remains in the domain of the rentier clas, who live off the interest created by debt.
          This system is NOT inevitable. Historically, in the US, there has been an ongoing struggle between those who think creation and control of money should be in private hands, and those who think it should be in the public domain. Since the 1913 Federal Reserve Act, private interests have prevailed.
          There is currently legislation proposed that would bring creation and control of money back into the public domain. HR2990, the National Emergency Employment Defense (NEED) Act of 2011 would do this. (See
          I encourage those in the US who believe that the authority to create and control money should be returned to the public domain to promote and support this legislation.
          An alternative is to spend our time spouting our personal, unsupported and undocumented opinions here.
          @Krisztián I don't think we can talk about money without including the current banking system, and the need to reform it.
  • Oct 1 2012: We need rationing to keep consumption in line with production, but the rationing doesn't have to happen through money as we know it. Money as we know it exists because we're used to it and because it benefits those who already have a lot of it.