- James Zediana
- Haverhill, MA
- United States
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Neo-Darwinian PRO or CON choose and discuss
The modern evolutionist is called a neo-Darwinian. He still accepts Darwin’s ideas about natural selection, but something new (neo-) has been added. The modern evolutionist believes that new traits come about by chance, by random changes in genes called “mutations,” and not by use and disuse.
W. Ying 10+
(1) "By random changes in genes called “mutations,”" is unavoidable, and
(2) " By use and disuse" is the organism nature of adaptation.
Entropy Driven
Before any of you considers playing the insulted, consider that your problem might be an honest one: misinformed, ignorant. None of these is insulting. I am ignorant of lots of things (evolution is not one of them). It becomes a problem if you decide and stay ignorant, or decide to be unable to follow explanations. Your choice, but then your self-inflicted insults.
I shall give you one example of flawed logic for now from what James wrote below. He said:
"Almost every mutation we know is identified by the disease or abnormality that it causes ..."
James, or his source, used this "fact" to propel the idea that mutations are harmful. But, wouldn't you expect that we know of these mutations precisely because they are harmful, and that there might be many times more mutations that cause from little to no visible effects until confronted with certain problems? Clearly, using sickness numbers as backup for any claims is ridiculous without asking how many mutations might just provide variation that can then give advantages under some environmental condition. That there's many such mutations is evident if we consider that we are not all identical. For example, some people are more resistant to some sicknesses than to others. James might never get some sickness that could kill me. I might be all right against some parasite that would harm James badly, and so on. This is no mere speculation, we witness such differences every time there's an outbreak. Variation is one clue to evolution. Selection is another clue.
I can talk about the other mistakes in James "debunking." But one should suffice for now.
Theodore A. Hoppe 200+
Many of the responses here demonstrate a limited understanding of the theory of evolution. There is a widely held belief that natural selection happens on an individual basis and this is probable never the case. An example might be to ask whether the bacteria in one's stomach exist for our benefit or whether we exist for its benefit, and to which of these would natural selection occur if not to both in someway?
See the work of Stuart Kauffman.
He is best known for arguing that the complexity of biological systems and organisms might result as much from self-organization and far-from-equilibrium dynamics as from Darwinian natural selection, as well as for applying models of Boolean networks to simplified genetic circuits. His hypotheses stating that cell types are attractors of such networks, and that genetic regulatory networks are "critical" have found experimental support."
John Smith 30+
As did the old "evolutionist", what you might be referring to is Lamarckism, an idea that predates Darwin.
Gail . 50+
Frans Kellner 100+
James Zediana
Frans Kellner 100+
Learn about Epigenetics and see how the environment shapes the inhabitants and how it all changes over time.
http://f1000.com/reports/b/4/18/
Darwin did spread the idea of evolving organisms from simple to more complex forms. The mechanism behind it was a wild guess at his days. And even though gene mutation combined with natural selection plays a part it is only a minor part. The interaction with circumstances but even more, the interaction between species plys the major part.
James Zediana
Frans Kellner 100+
Here you see examples of the effect of hunger on genetics.
http://www.news.leiden.edu/news/dutch-hunger-winter.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952313,00.html
It has to do with all environmental changes over all times.
James Zediana
Frans Kellner 100+
If a part of some species has to deal with a different environment (ecological niche) because it becomes wet or dry or is isolated as an island, then changes diverge in a different direction. Over many generations that one part has become that much different that they have become another species.
Peter Law 30+
Entropy Driven
Punctuated equilibrium was proposed after neo. It is about the tempo of evolution, about whether it has a constant rhythm or not. It is about it not having a constant rhythm, but rather species showing periods of apparent, anatomical stasis, followed by relatively quick—anatomically evident—evolutionary changes, still thousands and millions of years, only quick compared to the periods of stasis. Punctuated equilibrium is still here as part of evolutionary theory. After all, it was established by following the evolution of particular groups of organisms, and both, the evidence and the logic, are undeniable.
Gail . 50+
James Zediana
Entropy Driven
Gail . 50+
David Hamilton 50+
Gail . 50+
Gerald O'brian 50+
And the new addition to darwinism is not chance!
The mechanism is the same, natural selection, but Neo-darwinism explains evolution from a replicating gene standpoint, and understands that evolutionnary pressure does not apply to the species, the individual or the group.
And mutation is not enough. Many adaptations are in fact existing genes being switched on or off by something in the environment.
Ken brown 30+
Gerald O'brian 50+
Ken brown 30+
James Zediana
You refer to the fact that we control our enviornment, which is true but not everywhere in the world is that so and there still is no evolution of the species.
Ken brown 30+
We are changing because of our changing of the environment but i didn't say we control the the change and the changes are moving too fast for any organism to adapt.
This is about i.d isn't it James?
James Zediana
If we are changing because of our enviornment we would change when we move. I have lived in the north and south and traveled around the world yet enviornment has not changed that I am a human or my offspring.
Ken brown 30+
Yes you haven't changed but it would take possibly 100,000 years without any other human contact,just the group to change a few facial features that would show that they have become another race of man.
Evolution is a con
James Zediana
We have abundant evidence that various kinds of radiations, errors in DNA replication, and certain chemicals can indeed produce mutations, and mutations in reproductive cells can be passed on to future generations. Mutations are certainly real. They have profound effects on our lives. And, according to the neo-Darwinian evolutionists, mutations are the raw material for evolution.
Mutations are very rare. They occur on an average of perhaps once in every ten million duplications of a DNA molecule (107, a one followed by seven zeroes). That’s fairly rare. On the other hand, it’s not that rare. Our bodies contain nearly 100 trillion cells (1014). So the odds are quite good that we have a couple of cells with a mutated form of almost any gene.
The mathematical problem for evolution comes when you want a series of related mutations. The odds of getting two mutations that are related to one another is the product of the separate probabilities: one in 10^7 x 10^7, or 10^14. That’s a one followed by 14 zeroes, a hundred trillion! Any two mutations might produce no more than a fly with a wavy edge on a bent wing. That’s a long way from producing a truly new structure, and certainly a long way from changing a fly into some new kind of organism. You need more mutations for that. What about trying for four related mutations? One in 10^28. Suddenly, the earth isn’t big enough to hold enough organisms to make that very likely. And we’re talking about only four mutations. It would take many more than that to change a fish into a frog. Four mutations don’t even make a start toward any real evolution.
Even more serious is the fact that mutations are “going the wrong way” as far as evolution is concerned. Almost every mutation we know is identified by the disease or abnormality that it causes. As a matter of fact, human beings are now subject to over 3500 mutational disorders. Fortunately, we don’t show as many defects as we carry. The reason they don’t show up
Sharon McCann 10+
I don't say I agree with him, but it was interesting food for thoght.
Theodore A. Hoppe 200+
Have a look: http://www.ted.com/conversations/11849/is_autism_or_some_types_of_au.html
I'll add a note here about the point of "genes starting to "misfire" from aging." The research of Simon Baron-Cohen touches on this issue since boys are more effected than girls, and there are indicator that point to testosterone levels.
Ken brown 30+
Sharon McCann 10+
John Smith 30+
One gene controls multiple functions in the body, evolution happens over many generations, you've confused the odds of two related genes mutating with the odds of the same gene mutating twice, in the same way, within the same cell, and you have severely understimated the mutation rate: an average human ancestral line acquires ~100 mutations (of base pairs, genes consist of many base pairs) per generation. More primitive animals have fewer base pairs and shorter generations.
James Zediana
The mutation rate I described was helpful mutations. This is what is needed for evolution and what we don't see.
John Smith 30+
No, genes can be switched off by gene switches, a lot of animal DNA is permanently switched off. You can have hundreds or even thousands of mutations within these genes before another mutation pulls the switch and the gene suddenly becomes active. There are also many instances known where entire organs change functions, such as a fish's swim bladder becoming an amphibian's lung without the need for evolution to create an entirely new organ. Harmless viruses are known to leave multiple mutations behind in every cell of the body (that's how gene therapy works, but we know it also happens in nature). You don't have to be a scientist to know that small mutations can have large consequences, ifyou've ever seen a cow with 5 legs that's all the proof you need.
Now that we understand DNA pretty well we can literally trace evolution back and see what evolved from what and how long it took.
Knowing these details separates the genuinely interested from those who are only looking at the surface and then only at things that support their preconceived notions.