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Do we think as a being/whole body and not just as a brain?
In Bonnie Bassler: How bacteria "talk", she talks about how the bacteria talk, make decisions, teach others, and even have two distinct languages. But why doesn’t she mention that bacteria actually think as individuals. On some fundamental level they have to, much like Ants, that although the information or knowledge that the single bacteria have is minuet, in a larger group that intelligence is shown. Could it be possible that these biological super organisms are an outward representation of in inward process that is happening in every living/material thing on a microscopic level? I would suggest yes. I would also suggest that if we evolved from a single celled organism into logical thinking beings, that on some level this single celled organism would have to think. We know from her work that they, talk, make decisions, teach, and have two distinct languages, one of which is universal to all bacteria (something humans can’t seem to figure out yet). I don’t care who you are that sounds like advanced intelligent life. Why must we as humans put our self on such a unique pedestal? I would suggest that this is from the reaction to realizing self. It’s easy now to look in a mirror and say yep that’s me, but it’s a million times harder to say that this is just a visual representation of trillions of moving, living, self-replicating entities. Whose basic internal voice could be something along the lines of eat, sleep, and reproduce? What if it took those 10 trillion bacterial cells and human cells working together to turn on our subconscious mind?
Casey Christofaris 10+
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49333413/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/puddles-goo-brainless-slime-molds-have-memories/#.UHRWNE3AcZk
Mark Meijer 100+
As with any analogy, don’t take it too far. This is not an argument for some hardware/software dichotomy, and also not an argument for maths as the true nature of reality.
But it's obviously absurd to think that intelligence is only a product of brains. If we say brains are intelligent, how about the embryogenic process that grows a brain? Or even the continued process that maintains its development and function throughout life? All the more so for the entire nervous system and the rest of the organism.
The intelligence of brains is just one expression of the intelligence inherent in that natural process as a whole. And this is the same natural process that does/is everything else, seamlessly. Unimaginable intelligence, compared to which our so-called "higher" symbolic, academic intelligence is childs play.
This almost sounds like an argument for intelligent design, but then without the usual, imaginary implication of a purposeful designer. Existence is self-sufficient, it’s not so deaf dumb and blind that it needs some external entity to breathe life into it and give it direction. Only our own child-like symbolic intelligence could possibly come up with such contrived and excessive nonsense.
Intelligence is one continuous natural process that does not begin at the brain nor end at the skin. It knows no boundaries. There are no boundaries, other than our own projections of boundaries as an artifact of our symbolic intelligence. And that's where all our contrivances start from. Like the one that says intelligence is a product of brains.
Random Chance 30+
That is what I believe.
I'm told there are trillions of cells doing trillions of things every second that make up my body, brain and perhaps mind.
Hell, the first G4 I had computed 16 billion bits of information a second and was banned from being sold to China because it was considered a 'super-computer'. (but, they already had them)
Do you consciously heal a cut or scratch? If so, are you consciously aware of the process used and aware that you are doing it? No, but it happens and intelligence, power and let's add love (because it is a healing), are what takes place.
I think we put ourselves on a pedestal because of fear, mainly. Our perceived self, doesn't really exist and so it attempts to "run wild." Some say we are, "self-will run riot" but I prefer, "the self: will run riot" if allowed to.
By the way, if thoughts "are not true reflections of reality" then what is the thought that recognizes this or discovers it?
Is that then not real, accurate or true also?
Casey Christofaris 10+
Mark Meijer 100+
In a manner of speaking, you're using the context you start with, and the contrasts with other contexts, to navigate out of all context. I guess you might say you can't be reasonable unless you understand the proper place of reason. Which you only do when you've explored its limits. Thinking eventually defeats itself. And of course thought can only lead you to the door, it can't reach outside of itself.
The final step (or actually concurrent step) is to just watch the whole framework collapse as investments are withdrawn from it that have shown themselves to be unwarranted.
One more edit: Check out how this guy shows math defeating itself:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/13925/is_our_math_wrong_is_it_our_a.html?c=545761
I especially like how he starts with "its reality itself that defies definition". That's thinking defeating itself right there, if you see why it is so.
Casey Christofaris 10+
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49333413/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/puddles-goo-brainless-slime-molds-have-memories/#.UHRWNE3AcZk
John Allyn
You are close. The reason for the pedestal is that we have not evolved to the point of realizing that our imaginations are out of control. We nearly worship the imagination as being the source of our creativity and make ourselves into gods with in our own minds.
We have not evolved to the point of distinguishing our selves from our mentally created self images of who we imagine ourselves to be. Freud used the word ego as a Greek mystifying term for self without distinguishing self from the mental self image. Psychology has acknowledged the self image as existing for the purpose of manipulating it into a form which supports a client in being more socially appropriate. Yet they have not yet acknowledged the ignorance of assuming that the self image and the self are the same.
It is well documented and discussed now that we are more bacteria than human cells with a ratio of ten micro organisms for each human cell. Possibly as we drop the self image and become more acquainted with the self we will naturally be as intelligent as bacteria.
Mark Meijer 100+
Whatever bacteria do, they just do it without reflecting on an abstract model of it. They simply have no such capacity, any more than a tree or a rock. What bacteria do might upon reflection be called defacto teaching, but they have no abstract knowledge thereof. What bacteria do might upon reflection be called defacto cooperation, but they have no abstract knowledge thereof. What bacteria do might upon reflection be called an expression of intelligence, but they have no abstract knowledge thereof. Various things that bacteria do might be quite similar to what humans do, but conceptualizing those things is not one of them.
Phenoma emerge out of the interdependence of other phenomena (e.g. cells giving rise to human behaviour and abstract thought), but that does not mean each individual "unit" exhibits the same emergent phenomenon by itself. As a general principle, that's not how it works. E.g. my teeth can chew food, but one tooth can not. Two hands can clap, but one can not. A puddle can ripple but a droplet can not. Leaves can bristle but one can not. Hydrogen and oxygen are flammable, but water isn't. Etc.
All phenomena are emergent in that way, as spontaneously arising out of the coming together of certain circumstances. You might call that principle itself a kind of primordial intelligence. And yes in that sense I would say we "think" (exhibit primordial intelligence) with our whole being, and it doesn't end there. But not in the sense of conceptual thought and reflective awareness.
See also emergent phenomena and self organization, which are basically the western variants of the eastern notions of dependent origination and emptiness (when stripped of its superstitions).
Casey Christofaris 10+
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html
Colleen Steen 500+
Casey Christofaris 10+
Mark Meijer 100+
Which is not something uniquely magical apart from what we call the physical universe, they are one and the same. It's nothing other than all our most basic, ordinary, everyday reality.
You don't need to imagine anything on top of that, because that then is just that: Imagination. Likewise, it's not like you exist as something apart from it, that is also just imagination. You can't block it, or open to the flow of it, you are it already, just like everything else.
Casey Christofaris 10+
I am not saying its magical I am just trying to raise awareness.
Mark Meijer 100+
Casey Christofaris 10+
Colleen Steen 500+
I believe the body/mind is fueled by energy, which could be considered universal energy, vibration, primordial intelligence (do you consider this similar to collective consciousness?). The body is matter....yes? We have lots of different terms to try to identify and catagorize everything in human terms. Basically, I believe the body is matter, fueled by energy.
That is how I saw it with the NDE....the body, on the bed in ICU, near death, was the vehicle, and the carrier of energy.
I do not think or feel it is at all "magical"....it feels very natural to me. I believe EVERYTHING is interconnected....."one and the same" as you say. I agree...."it's nothing other than all our most basic, ordinary, everyday reality".....all natural:>)
I believe that the concept of imagination is also carried with the energy that flows through the body/mind. I agree that "it" is alreday flowing through us, and I also believe that with recognition, mindfullness, awareness, we increase the flow. If we do not recognize something, it doesn't exist for us...correct? If we decide that the sky is red, that is the reality we create for ourselves....correct? If we decide that energy flowing through our body is a bunch of crap.....not real......that is the reality we create. The energy still powers the body, and without recognition, it doesn't have as much strength. It's like installing an electric line you know? We can install a 110 volt line, or a 220 volt line, and it changes the amount of energy we receive.....similar to the human body:>)
Mark Meijer 100+
"What we call 'body' and 'mind' are mere abstractions from an identity experience that cannot be reduced to the one or the other abstraction, nor can it be hypostatized into some sort of thing without falsifying its very being." -- Herbert V. Günther
The body is not matter, it's a concept. Matter is a concept too. And so are mind, energy, primordial intelligence, collective consciousness, etc. All those are just concepts, units of thought, figures of speech (as all speech always is). Just ways of talking, never to be taken literally. Ever heard of the fallacy of misplaced concreteness? All concreteness is like that. All speech is like that, all thoughts are like that, and all interpretations are like that too.
Including your own interpretation of your own NDE. And so I would suggest that you don't take that literally either. An interpretation of an NDE is not an NDE, a memory of an NDE is not an NDE, and whatever you may have gleaned from it is just like any other experience, however regular or irregular: Not capturable in words. So when you do try to capture something in words, anything, don't make the mistake of thinking that those words are the true description of reality.
The more rigidly you hold to your beliefs, the less you will hear of what anyone else has to say. You clearly did not hear me in any case. Because you're constantly translating everything in terms of your own rigid, personal beliefs. Somehow everything here on TED is about your NDE. You might want to ask yourself what that means. For me it means that there is no talking with you, there is no communication here.
Mark Meijer 100+
If you consider anything an obstacle, then that's just another thought, again based on the absurd notion that you exist as something apart from the rest of existence. Reality can't be overcome, nor does it need to be. It's just there regardless, with or without "waves of energy pulsating through my body."
It's meaningless. Waves of energy are constantly pulsating everywhere, and you can (and do) make all sorts of things out of it. Thoughts are still just thoughts. Just more waves of energy, like a gust of wind with an attitude. Don't let them fool ya, or even try to school ya, oh no...
Casey Christofaris 10+
I actually think this is what makes us pattern thinkers. Trying to perceive something that might be there or not. I imagine this is how the eye was developed. First the cells were attracted to the light(sun) then they had to imagine or invoke the lights energy wave. I would suggest that the evolving eye saw all wave lengths of light but was seen(use loosely) as static or white noise. Then from there we (us bacteria and other single celled orgasms) attempted and tried to make patterns out of this static. As these patterns emerged they became our conceptual understanding of reality. As a consciousness we agreed to use these patterns real or otherwise as our collective understanding of the physical world. Just trying to make sense of it all on a fundamental level.
Also this is probably why when anyone does psychedelic's they almost always respond with look at all the pretty colors.
Colleen Steen 500+
It's ok if you do not acknowlege what I wrote....it's always a choice we make. I am not a scientist....I'm just a simple person. Demanding that I give you more information than I am capable of giving, is not going to facilitate more discussion.
I addressed Casey's topic to the best of my ability. If it is not satisfactory to you, so be it. I am in no way attached to you or anyone else accepting what I say:>)
I agree...that what we call body and 'mind' may be abstractions....concepts.....human constructs. That being said, however, that is all I have with which to communicate while in human form. I totally agree with you that the NDE is difficult to capture in words. So, why are you seeking more words as explanation?
I will certainly try not to make any "mistakes" in my thinking Mark. Do you honestly believe there are "mistakes" in thinking? Interesting! I do not agree with that.
I do not agree that "everything here on TED is about" my NDE. I have never started a conversation about NDE/OBEs, as several other people have done, and I only mention it when it seems applicable to the topic. In fact, one may look at all the comments I have made here on TED for 3 years, to varify that there are many, many MORE comments about many other topics, and the discussions about NDE/OBEs are few and far between. You might want to ask yourself why you make such a silly accusation, because one can simply look in my profile for that information.
Mark, you end your comment with the statement..."there is no communication here". I agree.
Mark Meijer 100+
So in that sense, all thinking is necessarily mistaken, if it is taken to be the truth. They are just formulations, and if you hold rigidly to yours, then you'll never understand what anyone else means. Ineffability is not unique to NDE's, it is inherent in all experience, hence my previous mention of "all our most basic, ordinary, everyday reality". And there is absolutely nothing in any experience that makes one more significant or important or special than another.
I don't demand anything, certainly not an explanation. You are claiming a distinction between the body and energy, so I assume you know what you base that on. If you don't, if that is "more information than I am capable of giving", then clearly the distinction you are making is not based on anything, rather it's just an assumption. A rigid belief. It's not that I don't acknowledge what you write, I just don't acknowledge the concrete reality you attribute to your interpretations, nor anyone elses, including my own. No interpretation is the true interpretation.
You don't need to be a scientist to know what you base yourself on. I'm just a simple person too, and whenever I find out that I don't know what I base myself on, I dismiss my assumptions instead of holding on to them. I didn't ask so you could explain your beliefs, I asked because I question them, like I question all beliefs. If you weren't able to see that, it's because it doesn't even occur to you to question them yourself. I could not have made myself any more plain.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with you regarding your perception of assumptions, concepts, beliefs and true reflections of reality and abstract interpretations. I do not agree that what we think is ever a mistake, and I respect your belief, as your belief.
I also agree that within "all our most basic, ordinary, everyday reality" "there is absolutely nothing in any experiece that makes one more significant or important or special than another".....except in our own perception:>)
Again Mark, I don't really care if you acknowledge what I write, or not. I am simply sharing my perceptions, just as you are. If you insist on calling my perceptions "rigid", so be it. I believe that I am pretty open minded, open hearted and flexible regarding thoughts, feelings, ideas, concepts, beliefs and opinions. I do not perceive anything to be "concrete", as you say, and my comments have demonstrated that over and over again.
I know myself pretty well after 60+ years of exploration Mark, and agree with you that questioning beliefs is always a good practice. I will still be exploring, while taking my last breath here in the earth school:>)
Colleen Steen 500+
This is a reply to your comment ending with...
"You can certainly open the flow by raising your own personal vibrations. See Reiki
I am not saying its magical I am just trying to raise awareness."
I also believe in the effectiveness of energy healing practices. I am grateful to have many friends who are massage therapists, reiki, reflexology and iridology masters/practioners, so I'm grateful to have experienced all of these healing practices. I've also very successfully experienced acupuncture and acupressure a couple times.
I believe that illness, dis-ease and injury are, or cause, a blockage of energy, so if we can move the energy in our body, either with our own practices (exercise, yoga, meditation), or with alternative practices provided by others, we can sometimes manage the challenges more easily. I also believe in the value of western medicine practices. I think/feel we can successfully use everything available for healing, and to do this, it's important to be familier with how the body/mind functions.
daniel hehir 20+
Ever heard of "The Hundredth Monkey Theory"
Here's a rather short and "cheap" video that tells a little bit about it. It's a really bad video!! There are much better things to read to get some better info. than watching this little video, but it gives the general idea. I don't really like the ending of it but if you google it you might find something of real value. Carl G. Jung was of course did some work here with the collective unconscious.
Morphogenic fields is another idea that you might like to google.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Moy6tz6Ubps&feature=related
There is some disagreement on the real truth of this phenomenon, just what the Japanese scientists really experienced on the two islands. I don't know if it has been proven false or not ... but the story that Bonnie Bassler tells us is just the same only on a smaller scale....
Casey Christofaris 10+
Gerald O'brian 50+
It's going too fast. It's like handing laptops to Neanderthals and trying to convince them that there is nothing magical about them.
Hum... no offense.
Casey Christofaris 10+
Rhona Pavis 50+
John Smith 30+
Casey Christofaris 10+
John Smith 30+
A bacteria cannot access the information stored into it's DNA, you shouldn't compare it to two computers exchanging ones and zeros, you should compare it to installing a new graphics card in a computer, no even that's not a good comparison: a bacteria lacks a part that functions as a CPU, brain or even nervous system.
Casey Christofaris 10+
If you watch Jeff Hawkins: How brain science will change computing
he explain that one cell stores all the information on bill Clinton and that is lights up and vibrates. Yes we use out brain to make this happen I am not saying we don't I am saying that all cell light up when stimulated and that we have so much more knowledge in us as a being then that is simple in our brain.
Gail . 50+
I take this farther. Thoughts are electromagnetic energy. They extend beyond our bodies and merge with the energies of other "beings". Quantum science suggests that they combine as the unified field or morphic field or quantum field. In this way, a human is as much a part of the self-aware energy field as the my right hand is part of me.
The separation that we see is an illusion.
Gerald O'brian 50+
No, they wouldn't have think. Why would they? Where's the connection?
Your image of the trillion organisms facing the mirror is poetic, nontheless.
Casey Christofaris 10+
I am not sure consider it a philosophical leap :)
Gerald O'brian 50+
Not anymore than silicon chips know they're playing against Kasparov!!!
Casey Christofaris 10+
Casey Christofaris 10+
Its our being feeding this information to us. And sometimes the brain needs to interpret that as a storm cloud of poetry to make sense of it.
Gerald O'brian 50+
Don't they all "want" to cooperate? Or do they have little personalities, and some just like to play solo?
Casey Christofaris 10+
And yes I guess you could postulate that bacteria and single celled organisms do have "macro personalities" which is probably where 50% of our personalities come from and the rest is environmental as well as personal choice
Gerald O'brian 50+
"macro" means big. "micro" means small.
Casey Christofaris 10+
And I think I was going for Nano but put macro