Noor Afsha

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The events are not random.

Let us consider an 'event'. In this situation, a person 'x' decides to move slowly on the bike, as compared to his regular way. He reaches to a spot right at a moment when another bike suddenly comes out from a side way to the main road and is hit by a fast moving Jeep. The hitting of the bike caused the biker to fall and the stumbling bike hits the bike of 'x' and 'x' also falls down.

This event of accident is linked with the prior events on all the three individual involved. Suppose 'x' had not decided to ride slowly, he would have escaped the accident, which did not happen.

My point is, it was not possible in any way that 'x' could have escaped from the accident. Because it is the only event which could have happened and happened. There is no event happens which is independent and unaffected and hence random. Every event is linked like chain. Like the falling objects in a queue. If you have seen cycles stand, if one is fallen, the others keep falling, suppose there are 100 cycles stand side by side, the falling of 100th cycle can be result of falling of 1st cycle. The fall of the 100th cycle is not 'random'. but is caused by the falll on 1st cycle. So what about the first one?

That first one is the event Big Bang. which is a primary event, and route cause of every other events. If i say, in first example, the accident of 'x' was destined by Big-Bang, i dont think that i am saying something awkward.

if i try to look the first event of accident from microscopic scale, a lot of event happening simultaneously, the wheel is moving, breaks, noise, and so no...!

If i try to look all event from a macroscopic point of view, every event happening at any time 't' is actually one event, when we look outside from the world. Every one of us are working as a unit.

The future events have already been decided by the very first event and nothing is random.

Please discuss.

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    Sep 27 2012: Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म IPA: [ˈkərmə] ( listen);[1] Pali: kamma) in Indian religions is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in the Hindu, Jain, Buddhist and Sikh religions.[2]

    The above is taken from Wikepedia.

    Noor, is this what you speak of.

    All the best. Bob.
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    Sep 27 2012: in this metaphor for life there is a dance and a dancer. which are you? most of us go through our lives assuming we are the dancer, navigating life and it's decisions carefully or recklessly or however; ignorantly assuming we are in control. A rise in awareness, however, shows us that we are the dance, experiencing this life as it happens to/for us. Underneath it all, though, we are both the dance and the dancer.
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    Sep 16 2012: If thought is a biochemical event and events are not random it suggests thoughts are not random. If thoughts are not random can we not predict the future by extrapolating thought, by visualizations and dreaming?
  • Sep 16 2012: This idea reminds me of the Seth material, by author Jane Roberts. The concept is that we are all creating the entire physical universe, both individually and en mass. Everything we do, we create. So the first person on the bike created the scenario. I often think of a young person, or any person, killed in a "random"act of violence. It's always seemed so senseless to me, that the only satisfactory explanation I could accept is that the person killed acted in the creation of the event. The reason seems suicidal, and Seth often taught that a person probably wanted to get back to non-physical reality because this particular incarnation was enough for them, for now. As far as proof of reincarnation, I have none. I do believe in it.
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    Sep 16 2012: You probably can trace every historic event to a pattern of precursor events with hindsight.

    The question is whether you can predict the future?

    If you could predict the quantum states of all matter and energy etc then perhaps you could predict the future.

    But we can't, at least for now. So from a human perspective we do not know the future. We do not know what decisions people and animals will make or that natural processes will cause. Maybe random is not quite the right word but it seems to be unpredictable.

    Could you have practically predicted when the Jeep would end the mans life? I guess not.

    So while the future may or may not be predicable, we certainly can not predict everything. So it is unknown, if not random.

    And perhaps it is random if electron or quantum states are random.
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      Sep 17 2012: We can not decide the future, agree. But we can no change the past as well. We only can think of doing what next...on the basis of past.

      Electron or quantum states are random? i think the probability is not same.
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    Sep 15 2012: It is very easy to attribute cause and effect to a supernatural power or force because it helps us to accept unfavorable life situations.
    Our lives are made of many small and big decisions. We decide if we want to take the left or the right or go slow or fast. Of course, there are events outside our control..decisions made by others, forces of nature like earthquakes etc.
  • Sep 15 2012: "My point is, it was not possible in any way that 'x' could have escaped from the accident. Because it is the only event which could have happened and happened. There is no event happens which is independent and unaffected and hence random."

    You can't just assert things like that and then consider them to be true. What you say goes directly against quantum mechanics, a set of observable physical rules. The world would be so much easier to understand if it were Newtonian but it happens to be non-Newtonian and we humans have to accept that, even though evolution has hardwired our brains to look for a reason behind everything and not believe in random chance.
    • Sep 15 2012: But evolution means random to the fullest...
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      Sep 17 2012: You want to say, event are not interconnected?
      • Sep 17 2012: They are connected but only loosely: when a butterfly flaps its wings in France there is a possibility of that casuing a hurricane in Cuba, but only a possibility. Quantum mechanics says a particle doesn't have simultaneously well-defined location and momentum, it's just a fuzzy blob and even if you knew all there was to know about this fuzzy blob you couldn't predict what a measurement of it would yield, you could assign probabilities to different outcomes but that's it.
  • Sep 15 2012: Your ideas are right, but you forgot to add some points. Lifeforms are random, we are almost equal, not at all equal. We have diffrent size, weight, looks, physical health etc.. To have a predictable future, you need everything to be exact that what is needed to get the result, means, the smallest diffrence might break your chain.

    Let us take your example, let us assume we can calculate everything that happens. If we decide to change the situation, we could do so, like giving one cyclist a push, so that he gets a little faster. That would change all other events coming to happen too. The problem would be, we would have to find out who or what we need to push to get our "planned" result. It must not be the cyclist, it is just one possible option to get this result.

    Another thing that speaks for being random is, you might be able to calculate all events, but can you calculate backwards? Take the falling bikes, we could line them up, let em fall, line them up again, push a diffrent bike, they gonna fall in a diffrent way again and so on. But, there are events happening we can't repeat. One single action can never be repeated twice, as we can't get backwards.

    A fallen bike has small damages, changes in physical appearance, it will fall again after new line up, but it is a diffrent fall. If so, future must be random. Because when you create a chain scenario, the result is always random. You need to put everything in exact place at the exaxt time to get a planned result.

    That means, because everything has an effect on everything, you would need to interfere continuesly to come to your desired end. If you do not interfere, you get a random result.
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    Gail .

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    Sep 15 2012: You speak of a purely mechanistic reality - something that a few physicists are exploring no matter how uncomfortable such a notion may make us feel.

    I prefer to think of the originating singularity as a self-aware potential organism. It is aware of its existence, and aware of its potentials. Each potential particle and each potential particle within a potential particle is a self-aware potential that was seeking a way to explore its own potentials.

    One moment before the Big Bang, there existed only potential, but one moment after, there existed time - meaning that there existed past, present, and future - for each now-existing being. Each being has the ability to make choices and learn from those choices, thus influencing future choices.

    the 2nd view is a more organic view of reality than the purely mechanistic view. If all times exist in their potential (at the same moment), then we navigate time like a captain navigates a ship. The more we know, the more satisfying realities we navigate into. The less we know, the more troubled the waters. This inspires evolution.

    Your worldview sounds impractical to me, though it is a rational extension of thought. It does conflict with my experience however. I also find it depressing, oppressive, and degrading. One may as well believe in God and give up on life.
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      Sep 17 2012: I was not upto God. Well, i thing saying that events are interconnected and generates due to a ceratain pattern, contradicts the Omnipotent God.