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Ehis Odijie

TEDCRED 10+

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Do you support unrestricted Immigration?

I do.

Restriction of people, if you come to think of it, makes no sense from a social standpoint. How can you restrict the movement of someone to a geographical fiction called Nation? YES the Nation state is a fiction but that is not what we are discussing here.

From an economic standpoint, free movement of people is the only way to achieve Factor price equalization and true free trade which will benefit all.

From a political standpoint – it is a way of achieving peace just as European Union has brought peace to the EU.

It will lead to a reduction of wages from the more advanced country – globalization is already doing that. That is part of the Factor price equalization by Paul Samuelson.

Do you? and why?

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    Sep 13 2012: Yes and No

    On one hand if your country does not have borders how do you define the country? On the other hand it raises the standard of living for the immigrant and keeps cost down for the citizens.

    It displaces the more expensive workers, but this is also subject to the state subsidizing the immigrants through government transfers. This because of the specious meme of equality.

    The immigrants are a liability at the lower economic end a boon with the H-1B visa.

    At the end of the day the reason immigrants come to the U.S., the greatest country in the history of the world that has raised the standard of living of the world more than any other country, is FREEDOM. You know the Statue of Liberty near Ellis island.

    High quality individuals want the intangibles, the pursuit of happiness, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, the right to defend yourself, a rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, private property, the best higher education in the world, the most ethically diverse country, the highest level of science, a consumer market to sell to, etc, etc, etc.

    Some would prefer the U.S. apologize to the rest of the world for some inane reason, the hell with that the U.S. has infinitely more to be proud of than not.

    The reason for the decline of this country is simply the erosion of these freedoms through growth and cost of government, which will probably be the end of the U.S.
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      Sep 13 2012: You are supporting the same protectionism you speak so beautifully against on different instances . . Here you want protection of America jobs and standard of living. How are you different from a protectionist- from an economic standpoint?
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        Sep 13 2012: "You are supporting the same protectionism you speak so beautifully against on different instances . "
        Spare me the conjecture give me specifics.

        I said quit subsidizing the immigrants, that has nothing to do with protectionism.
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          Sep 13 2012: Ehis, If the United States were, to put it in the words of a famous president, "Tear down this wall..." that separates Mexico from our country, the initial response would be overwhelming, economically and from a healthcare and logistic pint of view. Pat's reaction would be typical of the national reaction.

          I would add that tearing down the wall that separated Germany during the height of the Communist party rule has appeared to enhance Germany's influence and economic stature in Europe.

          I wonder if the wall separating Mexico and the Untied States were torn down, would it enhance our economic standing and Democratic influence in our hemisphere and the world?
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        Sep 13 2012: It is a statement of fact, not disposition.
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        Sep 13 2012: Nope I'm not advocating protectionism it is as obtuse as Hoover and Smoot Hawley.
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        Sep 13 2012: John

        I did not indicate I wanted to save American jobs at all period.

        I don't think there would be much difference if they "tore down the wall", anyone who wants is here.

        I think initially tearing down the wall in Germany was a huge strain on the country. The only way it was advantage to Germany was if the immigrants had to respond to the market place which I doubt they did.
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          Sep 13 2012: Pat said > "I don't think there would be much difference if they "tore down the wall", anyone who wants is here."

          Good point but many get caught going back to take money to their starving families or sick grandmother. Perhaps they should just stay here and be thankful. I did correct my previous post.

          I've tried to put myself inside the shoes of an illegal immigrant. I can see the fear in their eyes when I engage them. It's this fear that sets them up to questioning by the police where they are discovered. It's a sad thing. I sometimes want to grab them and hug them and tell them everything will be alright, especially the children, but that's just me. My fellow countrymen don't feel the same way.

          If I were president I'd definitely be a one term president. They would probably kick me out of the country. :)
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        Sep 14 2012: I think you make one fundamental assumption, that is simply untrue, and at the root of it, is actually a type of racism. Your fundamental assumption, is that Mexico, and the Mexican people, can't build themselves a vibrant and sustainable economy. You assume Africa, and the African people, can't build themselves a great monument of civilization.

        I think people will be fine, if they work hard, grant one another individual freedoms, and help one another out in times of crisis. The idea that the world would be a better place if everyone just left places that don't have their act together, seems like one that can only serve to destabillize.

        You seem to think that the world would be "fair", if everyone was as miserable as people in the most crippling poverty... I disagree. I think it would be fair if there was a vibrant middle class everyone had a chance to participate in, and a carrot on the stick of getting wealthy if you invest well. I think if you are unwilling to work hard and learn the skills society needs of you, you don't deserve to participate in that vibrant middle class. I think it is fair to give each individual that choice.
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      Sep 13 2012: I would respectfully question your assertion that the US is the most ethnically diverse nation. The "great melting pot" is in really a bit of a myth. For example 12.9% of US residents were born elsewhere. In Australia 26% of residents were born elsewhere and its 20% for Canada.(Unless my assumption about the typo was erroneous and you did mean ethically diverse. In which case you are entirely correct as I know of no other country with such a broad spread of ethics)
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        Sep 14 2012: Pedro

        I respectfully point out that this is not really myth, like so many things you say. Since Australia's total population is 23 million so 26% is 4 million which is not nothing. But in the U.S. the number of immigrants is 38 million.

        I will agree with either spelling as being apt.

        I will take it that since you did not complain about the comment that the U.S. is the greatest country in the history of the world that you do not disagree with that part. (8^(l)
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          Sep 14 2012: I merely point out that on a percentage of population basis there is nothing particularly diverse about the US compared to some other nations. You do much better than most of the EU however.
          Regarding the greatness of the US you cant argue with the fact that the western world has ridden on its back for the last hundred odd years. Possibly a burden you will be relieved of some time this century.
        • Sep 16 2012: @Pat Gilbert

          A melting pot is a melting pot because of percentages, not its total population size. China probablyhas more minorities and immigrants than the US in absolute numbers but it's not a melting pot because over 90% of its population are Chinese born Han Chinese. The US are a melting pot but not the only one, others are Canada, Australia, Brazil, Indonesia and India.
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        Sep 14 2012: I will also add... that... 98% of the US population was born elsewhere somewhere within the last 300 years... Also, that statistic is biased against us because we have so many second generation immigrants whose parents came to escape the war in Europe, and third generation immigrants whose parents came to escape the war in Europe before that.

        I think our population has risen 4 times since 1900, and that was from a hundred million, so in order of magnitude, we really are something special. Australia has enough land to start immigrating millions of farmers...

        Also, I think I often say we're the most diverse, like pat, but in reality, what I mean is "The US, Canada, and Australia, the nations of immigrants, share an extreme diversity, not seen elsewhere in the world". In all three cases, it's partially because of our violent history as colonies, are hands aren't clean or anything... but I think Americans often think of the 3 of us as "tied for most diverse", and we're the biggest.
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          Sep 14 2012: Regarding the millions of farmers, it may have escaped your notice but unfortunately Australia is also the dryest continent. Around 70% of Aus is classified as desert. It's like we have California on one side and Florida on the other but there's 20 Arizonas in between.
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        Sep 14 2012: Well 38 million immigrants is 21% of all the immigrants in the world, number 2 is Russia at 6% and Germany at 5%, Australia is at 2%. Calif has 10 million immigrants which is 2.5 times your country.

        This gives a little perspective to the problem as Calif doesn't have a printing press they have at the federal level.

        As mentioned before the scum bag politicians have created the problem by giving away services ostensibly to buy voters.

        The greatness that I refer to is that the U.S. has raised the standard of living of the world more than any country in history.

        http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_imm_pop_per_of_tot_num_of_imm_in_the_wor-percentage-total-number-immigrants-world
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          Sep 14 2012: I do appreciate that immigration stats are very skewed in the US due to the border with Mexico. Probably not all that many Hispanics in Seattle. Regarding the link, I really think a per capita number is more relevant, we are a big country but sparsely populated as the big dry red bit in the middle doesn't attract many immigrants. Hell I live on the coast down south (that's the cold half down under) and we still get temps over 100 degrees anywhere from November to March.
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        Sep 15 2012: Unlike America though... You can actually impose civil solutions to that problem.

        http://www.sciencealert.com.au/opinions/20091203-18907.html

        Get to work : p (as if I have any right to say that as an American in this decade)
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          Sep 16 2012: I'm sure it will come to that eventually, it's just a matter of convincing the voters that the infrastructure is worth the investment. Another great plan down here is to cut a channel from the south coast into the interior. Vast areas of central Australia are below sea level, so they would flood creating an inland sea.
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      Sep 14 2012: Gotta go with Pat on this one. I have other concerns. First things first. The discussion has been that Mexicans come here and that is a valid assumption .... However, no boarder makes passage into Mexico as well. The differences in our laws and the laws of Mexico are night and day apart. Does Mexico have the infrastructure to support the influx such as water, medical, sewage treatment. How about the money ... It would be the Euro problems X 10.

      The reason we have visa and citizenship laws in place is so that there is some control which allows the cities to adjust for growth. Say you live in Happy. The Happy engineers have set up a sewage system based on projected annual growth, the water table will support the same amount of growth, and the town has all of the infrastructure planned out. So Happy sees these people who want to move into Happy and the apple cart has gone to hell. We needs more schools and more everything NOW. Where does the money come from. Happy has no jobs for the original people and now has many many more unemployeed.

      These are great dreams .... but that is what they are dreams. We have quota systems based on different nationalities that wish to come to America. That ensures fairness to all. The ilegals that come into the country are not planned for and cause problems in all sorts of areas.

      You hate Mexicans, blah, blah, is all hype. The state of Arizona spends billions in unplanned for needs that are directly associated with people who will not abide by the law. The administration want them here but is unwilling to pay the bills.

      We have laws for reasons. The feds and the state should work together to enforce the law of the land. Instead the feds get mad when the state enforces the law and sues Arizona for doing their job.

      There is no free lunch. Put away the love beads. Put on your big boy pants and join the real world.

      All the best. Bob.

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